Sick and tired...

[PaulSC]

I don't think it's just a case of the game doing a good job of emulating the old fashioned graphical style. You could hire the greatest artists on earth to redo the graphics for that game, but if they had any sense it wouldn't end up looking dramatically different, because that clean, no-nonsense artistic style is a large part of what makes PB distinctive and unique.

While the guy who made it probably isn't any kind of artistic genius, I think he deserves better then the mildly dismissive "he did the best he could, given how much he had on his plate" kind of remarks. I honestly don't see the graphics in that game as any kind of failure or underachievement. That's why it rubs me the wrong way a little when people say you should try to "look past" the graphics, when instead they should really be encouraging you to try to adjust to the unusual style.

I'm not *condemning* people who think the graphics are simplistic or amaturish, I just think they should try to look at them a little differently.

[Chrille]

Hehe, just popping by to clear a few things up. The reason why the graphics are rather simple is not because I wanted to copy Manhunter's style exactly or anything like that. I didn't want to spend too much time on the backgrounds because I think I would've gotten tired of the game if the progress had been too slow. There isn't really anything I spent alot more time on than the other during the development of P:DA, allthough I wish I had spent some more time on the dialog as somebody mentioned, there are probably several things I would have done different if I made the game today.

Anyhow, spending little time on the backgrounds really did speed up development, because with Revenants I spend much more time on each background, and it takes up so much time that I eventally get fed up with the game and take a few weeks off. A good idea might have been to make shit graphics to start with and then finish the real graphics when the game's structure was complete. Right now the game is on hold unfortunatley, I'll have to think about another way to do it without loosing too much of the detail I want. Since my 3D skills are improving I might just make it in 3D at some point.

[cornjob]

Hi guys, I have something to add....
Back when P:DA first came out, I contacted Chrille offering to add/enhance graphics for it (which I did; they are in the game now). One thing I did was add light shading to alot of the backgrounds. I guess it improved them a little. not a big difference though. And I still love the gruesome death scenes/ splash screens I did, although they are lacking a little bit of the precision that Chrille's screens had.  Anyway, what I'm getting at is, working on those P:DA screens really influenced my view on art. Looking back on it, it was really my introduction to pixel art, which I've become more and more a fan of since then.

Today, almost all the work I do is pixel art or retouching backgrounds with pixel detail in mind. I now find P:DA's art nicer than I thought it was 3 years ago. And in my opinion, it looks good.

[shbaz]

You can't just get angry at people who tell others to look past the graphics or say that the graphics aren't that great because I'm sure that when the majority of people say that, they don't mean, "The graphics don't suit the atmosphere of the game/don't show effort/aren't consistent/etc". I'm sure they mean, "The graphics aren't amazing works of art", and they aren't. The game is based on earlier games, and thus aren't as "good" as the graphics of a nowadays game's capabilities.

Yep, there's a difference between functional and artistic.

I have a feeling this thread was inspired by my recent comment about Larry Vales - did I break the last straw Eric?

[edmundito]

I agree with Eric Colossal in the fact that PDA's graphics are just great. Definitely the level of detail in every single object in the room has to be recognized (*netmonkey immediately checks his backgrounds for architectural sense, in order to please Eric). I believe that it's deliberately meant to have a retro look to them, too, which is something I really liked about the game.

Larry Vales' graphics are not so bad... I think there was a joke about them at some point (In the game itself? On Phil's website..? I can't remember) but I didn't really mind the style for larry vales at all.

Both games were great, and I didn't have to "compesate" from the graphics to enjoy them. I understood the graphical style, accepted it, liked it, and embraced it (what the hell am I talking about? I'm too lazy to delete that )

Another game is the Rob Blanc Trilogy. A lot of people don't get the idea behind the backgrounds. It's old-school, dude!

Maybe everyone just wants CMI-looking backgrounds with curly clouds and all. Is that a good graphical style? Hmm?

[Radiant]

I don't actually care too much about graphics (heck, I even play text adventures). I haven't played Pleughburgh yet but it's on my to-do list, but I found LV absolutely hilarious and had a lot of fun playing it. ('bushes courtesy of super mario surplus'...)

[evenwolf]

Nobody ever whined about horrible fonts during the old text parser days.

All you sacks of poobungie who want games with AWESOME programming, dialogue, AND graphics better not give crap to people trying to start group projects any day soon.Ã,  I'll be all over you like a tuna net on a dolphin.


And eric, I'm sorry you're sick and tired of what I say.Ã,  Or were you completely certain of that?

[Mephistophilis]

Damn... Now I feel Guilty for making comments like that. btu I was eencouraging Newbie's at the same time I feel, so I'm morally clean-ish. (In this respect only)

[Las Naranjas]

He quoted the last straw in his first post.

[Nacho]

As Andail said... we must define what are good graphics! I think that Garfield or Calvin and Hobbes have more atention in detail than Dilbert, or Cutlas (A spanish comic). But that does not mean they're less effective. The subjective thing is: Whereas a kq1 vga remake has 2 milion colours per background Chrille uses 50. Now... the subjective thing is to determinate which are better...

I think both are effective if they accomplish their task. I loved Chrille's game, even the graphics... If you say that they're crappy then you're saying that south park has crappy graphics, because there are some cartoons which have more attention on then, or like saying that Picasso's are crap because they're not so realistic as Velázquez...

And... I must play LV...

[MrColossal]

""The graphics aren't amazing works of art", and they aren't."

"But then, with Pleurburgh you get very functional graphics. They are not pretty though"

I couldn't disagree more. I think a lot of the backgrounds in PB are simply amazing.

I don't like the word functional but I suppose it's fine when not used in a dissing kinda way. Saying that they are functional to the game is fine with me in the same way that Apprentice's art is functional to it's game. They create a mood and explain what the room/objects/characters are supposed to look like.

"I think he deserves better then the mildly dismissive "he did the best he could, given how much he had on his plate" kind of remarks. I honestly don't see the graphics in that game as any kind of failure or underachievement. That's why it rubs me the wrong way a little when people say you should try to "look past" the graphics"

This is pretty much my whole rant on PB's graphics summed up, thank you very much. Of all the places where people shouldn't be critical of "retro" art you'd think the AGS forums would be the place. How many absolutely beautiful hand painted high resolution games do we have that Pleurburgh seems to be singled out as the one where we should look past the graphics? How many games do we have that aren't in any kind of "retro" look? Not many at all.

I'm just annoyed because it seems that the old technique [popularized by the Bush administration] of saying something over and over again makes it true.

Shbaz you weren't the straw, I was talking to some people about this at Mittens and decided to actually post it after being reminded by your comment. So you didn't break the camel's back, you just kicked it in the teeth after it's back had already been broken. Jerk...

"The relationship between graphics and playability is more intimate than most people think. You can't always pick them apart and say "yeah the gameplay was good, but the grahpics SUCKED!" Graphics can be a show horse, but it's more often a working horse."

Again, huge agreement there from me to Andail. And nice quotable quote there at the end.

I think that's everything,
eric

[rodekill]

Wow. I only just discovered that Kingsized is Evenwolf.
I had thought that my lovely Wolfy had fled into the jungle, but I was wrong.

Anyways,

I think there's only one real way to define if the graphics in Pleurhufiefenhdhdhd are good or not.
Did they achieve what Chrille had in mind? Was he satisfied with them, or did he simply do whatever he could within his abilities? I don't really think it's our place to judge that.
Now, wether or not we as individuals liked them is another thing. I personally like Chrilles style, because, well, he's just chock full of it. You can tell a Gaspop game by it's style, and I think that's awsome.

It's funny because I've been struggling with something like this recently (Eric knows all about it). I have this game I want to do, but I am incapable of recreating the character style I want for it. I was going to just settle for whatever I could get done, but I've come to the conclusion that it wouldn't do the game justice, and I'd just end up unsatisfied with it.

[James Kay]

I don't like the word functional but I suppose it's fine when not used in a dissing kinda way. Saying that they are functional to the game is fine with me in the same way that Apprentice's art is functional to it's game. They create a mood and explain what the room/objects/characters are supposed to look like.

That is *exactly* what I mean by functional. There is no negatiove subtext there!
P:DA's graphics are functional and therefore "good". It's not that they are "not pretty" and therefore "bad".

Don't get so excited about these things.

[MrColossal]

Um James, I think you're reading me wrong.

I'm not "excited" about anything. Read everything I write deadpan unless it has an exclamation point then read it like I'm kinda raising my voice a little.

I'm not like freaking out and kicking my feet or crying or yelling at anyone.

[edmundito]

Um James, I think you're reading me wrong.

I'm not "excited" about anything. Read everything I write deadpan unless it has an exclamation point then read it like I'm kinda raising my voice a little.

I'm not like freaking out and kicking my feet or crying or yelling at anyone.

It's hard to put the right emotion into the text, so everyone makes up their own and they get the message completely wrong! That's what I don't like about teh intarweb. In my mind, everyone sounds either pissed off or not interested at all.

[jetlag]

It's hard to put the right emotion into the text, so everyone makes up their own and they get the message completely wrong! That's what I don't like about teh intarweb. In my mind, everyone sounds either pissed off or not interested at all.

That's why we have SMILIESÃ,    

[evenwolf]

There is no smiley that communicates just how gosh darned pissed I am at smilies.

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