Obviously this has been addressed before, but I would like to hear a few new takes on it.
I'm working on a game, and I just don't have the skills to draw up any beautiful backgrounds. I try, but I fall short. I then decided to try and take some real photos, and see if I could filter them into something resembling a sierra scene. I just haven't managed to get the right look yet, and I am pretty discouraged. I'm really pumped about my script and puzzles, but I just can't manage the presentation.
So has anybody with minimal art skills manage to release any good looking games without enlisting other artists? If so, I'd like to hear about it, because I am stuck and I don't know where to go from here.
Your idea of taking photos is a good one, the mistake is probably trying to make them look like sierra scenes, that just isn't going to happen. Sierra made some pretty looking games, but there are many other styles that work great for adventures. Even if you use very lightly edited photos it can look good, as in Soviet Unterzögersdorf. The famous adventure games were made by professional artists, there are some people around the community that can make similar graphics but most can't, so people should be trying more unconventional stylised graphics I think. As hobbyists we have the luxury of being able to do that.
You could:
1. Stick with drawing, as you will finally succeed if you take your time and actually study it.
2. Draw badly and complete your game as such. It doesn't make the game very appealing, but if the story is good, than it doesn't really matter.
3. Get someone to draw for you, which may be very difficult.
4. Take photographs and make kind of GK2 adventure.
5. My personal favorite; use 3D. Still, you need to learn it first.
I'm having a lot more success now. I'm filtering photos, and I've switched to a watercolor filter. I also filtered my characters the same way, so everything looks like it belongs together. Hopefully it works with sprites too.
What you must realise is that in the end, so called "beautiful backgrounds" are not necessarily adding to gameplay. I more tend to enjoy highly unprofessional art since of it's naïve qualities. Graphics should contribute to gameplay. If you only strive to make the game look good, you miss the points. AGI games rock, but are they visually appealing? Yes and no. Yes because they are coherent and functional but No because they have a god awful color scheme.
Taking photos, yes, that works. It's great for realistic games quite frankly, and you can achieve good results.
Using photos for characters? Is difficult to pull off with good results, but try it, by all means.
Using 3d? Now, 3d is just another medium. Let's face it, if you, like most people, assume yourself to be artistically inept, then 3d doesn't automatically make you do great graphics. They are slick, yet soulless, and frankly, the biggest feel-killer of the century when done poorly. It is like filling your rooms with high saturated gradients, believing that this simulation of technical mastery somehow makes appealing graphics. You might aswell post a big lens flare over the room.
..yes, I dislike 3d. I've seen way to many poserdolls.. my rant is over now though.
There are NO people who just can't draw. Atleast, not for adventure game graphics.
If it comes to drawing, some people have talent and some others not. For example, I drew very realistic pictures with pen and paper from age of 6. Some people can't even draw the way I did when I was that young.
But this does not mean that they couldn't make decent backgrounds or sprites.
The amount of talent only helps here, but doesn't restrict anything. Room backgrounds consist arranging and composing geometry and texturing it. You don't have to have "good hand" to make interesting curves and stuff like that, you just have to know how to draw boxes and spheres.
This is something that needs only practice, and endless amount of experience. And is therefore totally learnable.
Sprite art is a bit different music; but in low resolution, I'm sure everyone can learn enough to arrange some colored dots so they resemble humanoid/animal.
Easiest way to understand that you're not the one who can't draw is to start drawing. As my national saying goes, "Fear has big eyes" which means that things we don't try seem a lot worse from distance. Once you get things going, you'll start to see ways to improve this and that and eventually end up with decent graphics.
I don't want to say anything bad, but in my opinion, atleast 60% of AGSers have not this mystical variable named "artistic talent". They're just brave, optimistic, a bit stubborn and eventually, very successful. Come visit Critics Lounge and see yourself.
If one can at least make a framework of a room, for example, they're pretty much set. You just have to put in some time doing the coloring, but basic shading and stuff is really easy if you know what you're doing.
I'm actually knocking around an idea to start First Person adventure of some kind using photos... So it's definitely a medium to try. But I'd suggest not using built in filters. Custom taylor your images, find your own "style."
text adventures
No no no! No text advetures!
Dude just check out the loomis book, fun with pencil.
The man is convinced he can teach anybody how to
draw, get this... HES RIGHT!
Quote from: 2ma2 on Thu 03/11/2005 11:44:24
What you must realise is that in the end, so called "beautiful backgrounds" are not necessarily adding to gameplay. I more tend to enjoy highly unprofessional art since of it's naïve qualities. Graphics should contribute to gameplay. If you only strive to make the game look good, you miss the points. AGI games rock, but are they visually appealing? Yes and no. Yes because they are coherent and functional but No because they have a god awful color scheme.
Thanks. I guess I should really explain that I am not a bad drawer. I was quite good at one time, but I stopped drawing several years ago. I can surely draw a framework and color it with photoshop. The reason I don't like that approach is becase I'm unsure of the response a game like that would receive. I have a really solid story, and good puzzles, so I really want everything to be at that level. I'm a perfectionist by nature, and I hate releasing something that I am not impressed with.
So basically, I do have the talent to draw up some standard old school backgrounds, but I wouldn't be satisfied with them. But as I said, I am starting to get a better feel for filtering photos to make them look more like paintings, and it's working pretty well.
Quote from: Josh R on Thu 03/11/2005 22:58:06
Quote from: 2ma2 on Thu 03/11/2005 11:44:24
What you must realise is that in the end, so called "beautiful backgrounds" are not necessarily adding to gameplay. I more tend to enjoy highly unprofessional art since of it's naïve qualities. Graphics should contribute to gameplay. If you only strive to make the game look good, you miss the points. AGI games rock, but are they visually appealing? Yes and no. Yes because they are coherent and functional but No because they have a god awful color scheme.
Thanks. I guess I should really explain that I am not a bad drawer. I was quite good at one time, but I stopped drawing several years ago. I can surely draw a framework and color it with photoshop. The reason I don't like that approach is becase I'm unsure of the response a game like that would receive. I have a really solid story, and good puzzles, so I really want everything to be at that level. I'm a perfectionist by nature, and I hate releasing something that I am not impressed with.
So basically, I do have the talent to draw up some standard old school backgrounds, but I wouldn't be satisfied with them. But as I said, I am starting to get a better feel for filtering photos to make them look more like paintings, and it's working pretty well.
text adventures
I think of myself as a person who "just can't draw." I agree, that if I took the time to practice and went through some hardship I could be person who could draw. However, making backrounds is something I absolutely loath. I just don't enjoy doing it. I also don't enjoy doing things I hate. So, it's obvious I'm not going to put the time and effort into becoming better at it. If, and hopefully when, I decide to make a game for profit, I fully intend to get someone who's passion falls in this area. For a freeware game, I'll make my own graphics.
I think there are people who "just can't draw." Just like there will be people who just can't orchestrate music. It's not that these talents are above them, it's that they lack natural ability, and a desire in seeking how to gain that ability the hard way around. They see no gain by learning this talent.
However, this leaves people like myself in a conundrum(sp?). Only because it's much easier for a pretty lookin game filled with a vile gut wrenching plot, then a not so good looking game with a nice cream filling, to attract a bigger audience. I do believe graphics make up people's minds from the start. Some people will not open thereselves to a game with horrible graphics. But in the end, if you're game is really good, people will suffer through the eye poop you put on the screen.
-MillsJROSS
-MillsJROSS
Think of other ways to make a background. You do not necessarily have to "draw" as such. There are many artforms to use to design backgrounds.
For example, Aaron's Epic Journey used painted backgrounds and looked marvellous.
I had an idea to take the techniques from Dada and make a game built with handmade collages, mainly using coloured paper. I think that technique would work.
You mentioned photographs? How about designing model landscapes with clay and odds'n'sods (a la Wallace and Gromit) and taking photographs of them.
There are endless possibilities if you can image them.
Just for the record, I toyed with the idea of seeing Ultimerr with "professional" graphics. It didn't work at all. Ultimerr rules harder than your grandmother BECAUSE of these graphics. Something about the abstraction and low tone increasing the words.
Why not textadventures?
Quote from: DGMacphee on Fri 04/11/2005 06:23:39
You mentioned photographs? How about designing model landscapes with clay and odds'n'sods (a la Wallace and Gromit) and taking photographs of them.
That's actually a great idea. I might try something like that after this project. I could just do some stop motion for the animations. Anyhow, my current project is pretty lofty, but maybe I will try some clay in the future.
My own games are an example of how something arguably worthwhile can be made without much drawing ability:
1. Princess Marian series: childish drawings
2. Awakening of the Sphinx: Not-great drawings
3. Pixel Hunt: everything deliberatly done as simple geometric objects and yet it won MAGS
Quote from: DGMacphee on Fri 04/11/2005 06:23:39You mentioned photographs? How about designing model landscapes with clay and odds'n'sods (a la Wallace and Gromit) and taking photographs of them.
Very interesting idea! It still requires some artistic ability, this time for sculpting rather than drawing. But I would love to see a game with clay characters and sets, that would be something! The figurines could be sculpted and photographed behind a green-screen, and then used as sprites in the game. You could place them on some kind of turn table to get all 4 (or 8) angles of rotation.
Quote from: DGMacphee on Fri 04/11/2005 06:23:39You mentioned photographs? How about designing model landscapes with clay and odds'n'sods (a la Wallace and Gromit) and taking photographs of them.
"The Neverhood" did this, too.
It's quite a cool adventure game, although it's puzzles and gameplay aren't exactly its strong side.
Platypus (shoot-em-up) had all it's graphics done with plastacine models and looked really unique.
On the can't draw side, I don't give a toss about graphics, (see my games), I can't really draw but I am getting better with practice. For me AGS is Adventure Game Studio, not 'look how good I am at drawing' Studio. If it's an Adventure I'll play it, in a way the graphics can detract from the game, removing the players imagination, and ultimatly greatly slowing down the development time. Everyone nowadays is TV brain dead, and judge everything on appearance basically because we all know what real life looks like and can easily say good or bad visually. If your game is strong enough to get the player 'into' it, immerse into the story and just be there, the graphics serve very little purpose. The brain fills in all the gaps.
Personally I despair at the critics lounge and games production threads and their obsessiveness with graphics/walk cycles/perspective/lighting. I could go on but don't wish to 'rock the boat'.
Graphics should be functional and stlylistic, setting an atmosphere, they are the packaging not the content.
QuoteI agree, that if I took the time to practice and went through some hardship I could be person who could draw. However, making backrounds is something I absolutely loath. I just don't enjoy doing it. I also don't enjoy doing things I hate. So, it's obvious I'm not going to put the time and effort into becoming better at it.
Well-well...
It's hard for me to understand, since I always used my creativity as an outlet and - how to put this... bridge between my inner world and real one. How can anyone not enjoy expressing himself? Especially in
so expressive way?
It's really sad if you're feeling about art like you said, but I still prefer to think about this as a complex
(was it english? :P) of yours.
But of course, success is also the key to further motivation. Failings are not.
He didn't say he felt that way about art in general... just about making backgrounds. I'm not big on drawing either, but creativity is absolutely my release. I just prefer writing music, writing fiction, or painting.
Quote from: 2ma2 on Fri 04/11/2005 08:11:12
Just for the record, I toyed with the idea of seeing Ultimerr with "professional" graphics. It didn't work at all. Ultimerr rules harder than your grandmother BECAUSE of these graphics. Something about the abstraction and low tone increasing the words.
Why not textadventures?
It's interesting that you mention that because I think the creative style of a game is very much influenced by the type of game you're creating. With the graphics for Ultimerr, I was trying to recreate an old school RPG style because I was making a parody of old school RPGs.
I once had another idea for a project ages ago called "Smileytown". It was supposed to be a detective game (a la "Chinatown" with Jack Nicholson) but with emoticons. All the backgrounds, objects and characters were to be designed using characters from the ASCII set. In fact, I was even going to name the lead character "Jake Ascii".
This is what I mean by being creative with your backgrounds. You don't have to be a fantastic drawer to be creative. Just have to show initiative and imagination.
It basically comes down to what type of game you're creating. Like it has been repeated, you can always just make a text adventure if you feel you have zero creative talent with graphics. However graphics can be a worthy extention for the game's expression of an idea, which is why it's often good to consider the choices in creative styles available to you.
There are countless possibilities. Your minds, full of potential, can imagine them.
I was just about to post almost exactly what DG said. Your graphics should reflect the style of game you want to make and that may be mean stick figures coloured in Paint. I intend on doing a crayon-coloured game someday, which will look purposely simply and crappy.
However, the OP has already made it clear that it isn't not being able to draw which is ihs problem, but that he wants a certain style and can't achieve that himself (without years of learning).
My advice is to either find someone on these forums OR some art-related forums around the place (heck, there are HUNDREDS) and approach them with your request directly, or just advertise like the rest of us. Trust me, it can work. And hey, you've just gotten yourself some publicity right here.
I made a game using photos since some kids made me think I couldn't draw in 7th grade. Perhaps it could serve as inspiration for a "photo-styled" game:
http://interactingarts.org/thezone/screenshots.html
Quote from: Wretched on Fri 04/11/2005 21:42:48
Platypus (shoot-em-up) had all it's graphics done with plastacine models and looked really unique.
On the can't draw side, I don't give a toss about graphics, (see my games), I can't really draw but I am getting better with practice. For me AGS is Adventure Game Studio, not 'look how good I am at drawing' Studio. If it's an Adventure I'll play it, in a way the graphics can detract from the game, removing the players imagination, and ultimatly greatly slowing down the development time. Everyone nowadays is TV brain dead, and judge everything on appearance basically because we all know what real life looks like and can easily say good or bad visually. If your game is strong enough to get the player 'into' it, immerse into the story and just be there, the graphics serve very little purpose. The brain fills in all the gaps.
Personally I despair at the critics lounge and games production threads and their obsessiveness with graphics/walk cycles/perspective/lighting. I could go on but don't wish to 'rock the boat'.
Graphics should be functional and stlylistic, setting an atmosphere,Ã, they are the packaging not the content.
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I enjoyed reading this :)
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Take Larry Vales 1, too. I thought the graphics were... not it's best feature. But the jokes and self-aware injokes were hilarious!
I was thinking that once I get my computer bluetooth enabled, i might see how good/poor photos are from my mobile phone, and use them.
I did a mock game using a photo taken with a digital camera (not mine) and basically made the onscreen person's mouth open when talking. (With a 1st person view) It looked stupid and funny...
Would it be easier to draw with a graphics tablet? That's what i bought especially for my AGS game's graphics. A million times easier to draw!
So...would everyone accept reasonable hand sketches for backgrounds on a serious fantasy game?
A two good RL friends of mine (who are excellent hand sketch artists) and I are working on a wonderful (IMO) fantasy story game, so far called Alrek. If we feel like we're making progress, we are very enthusiastic, but when we are sitting around and waiting for art, they get frustrated.
None of us are oil painters, nor am I particularly good at making digital paintings from their sketches (no matter how excellent). The way I've expressed it to them is that visual art, for me, is a means to an end. I want to do it because I want good art for our game, but thats the ONLY reason. Its just not enough for me to devote tens of hours, or hundreds, to practice.
This would be a full featured, full length adventure game, if finished. We've actually got plans to make it like an RPG, allowing for expansions and additions to the story after completion. We'd *like* to include large 'side quest' areas that are completely unnecessary. So you see why we need to have reasonable art, but a lot of it too.
:O hollister man, where have you been (sorry to stray off topic)
(Puddin- I was so discouraged by the poor response to DQ3 Demo 1, and the lack of progress on Alrek that I completely bailed on all AGS projects for several months. I would have responded if anyone PMed or e-mailed me, but no one did. I'm going to try being around again, but its pretty frustrating not to make progress, because of my dislike of my own art)
I think I'm going to use the old sketches that I have on hand to get Alrek going again. The GUI is pretty innovative, I like it a lot. I was thinking about printing the sketches larger (like 11x17 or so) and trying to paint them with acrylics, but I'm not at all confident about that thought.
For people who believe they suck but want to get better... Enter a MAGS contest. That's what I did, and although at first I felt as though I couldn't draw for beans, I managed to create something rather large with quite a few things in it that I wouldn't have guessed I could draw. Basically, it forced me to work because I had a strict deadline. There was no staring at the screen saying to myself, "Poop, I can't draw. How am I ever going to get this stupid thing done without graphic arts talent?" I just started making some crappy backgrounds and stuff, and then when I was done:
a) It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.
b) I had improved in the process.
c) I won the contest.
In response to claims that artists are unwilling to work on another persons project let me say that I'm looking for a project to work on especially one that fits into the fantasy genre. I'm more a sprite artist than a background one but I am willing...
It's not problem with drawing everybody can learn that.Imagination is the key and that is the main problem.For an example we could draw a realy nice BG but we need allmost 2 weeks for that.Simply because we don't know what to draw.But we got better with every BG we make and that is solution hard work and a great amount of patience and somebody to guide you.
Yes, I think I have a similar problem.
When I have something in front of me, I can actually make a pretty good copy of what I'm seeing (see for example page 2 at the sprite jham. My first ever sprite). But of course I had the picture while drawing, which makes it kinda easy.
If you were to ask me to draw something out of the blue, I am probably completly incompetent...