Special page for offering/recruiting help and assistance?

[Andail]

There have been debates over the efficiency of our sticky threads in this forum, the Offer your Services and Recruit a team.
Maybe a thread isn't the perfect form for this kind of activity? Maybe some sort of noticeboard, where people will update their "adds" and edit or remove them accordingly.

The site could have two major departments; "Recruitment" and "Offer service". Each department will be further divided into areas such as Sprites, Backgrounds, Sound, Programming etc, which can be easily searched and browsed.
Every advertiser must update their adds regularly, or they will disappear. This will prevent lots of old junk.

The problems with the current thread-based system are:
* They are rarely browsed; the linear order makes it unlikely that people pay attention to older posts, even if they are still relevant.
* They aren't sorted by the field of activity, nor by workload or time-span.
* They cannot be easily edited, updated or removed
* Old posts are not automatically removed (the new system could update the archive e.g. every month).

Any ideas, thoughts?

[Radiant]

I think this is a good idea. People offering services should have the option of uploading a sample graphic/music so that others can estimate what style and quality they're working on. Or a link to their website.

Similarly, recruiters should link to some existing material. However, I've noticed that there are far more people with a kewl idea who want team members, than actual artists looking for a job; so the recruitment portion of the site may be pretty much pointless.

The list should probably be ordered by whomever edited it last, that way people will drift to the bottom eventually if they don't update their stuff. People are encouraged to 'touch' their profile regularly to keep it current.


Scratch that, thinking further I don't actually believe this will work. See post below.

[scotch]

I think this would certainly be more effective than the thread, which I always saw as somewhere to direct people to when we really want to say "Nobody wants to be on your team, nobody even wants to read about you needing a team, go and post somewhere nobody will read!".  Can anyone offer some success stories about games they made with random people from forums that they never spoke to before? We seem to have trouble doing that even if we know the people... I'm wondering if it'd even be worth having more/any facilities to hook up teams like that.

[Radiant]

Can anyone offer some success stories about games they made with random people from forums that they never spoke to before?

Actually, that's a good point. Over the course of A Tale of Two Kingdoms, I contacted everybody in the OYS thread offering music, graphics, portraits or animation, over a period of at least three months. About 90% of them (1) didn't respond at all, (2) declined in direct contradiction of their OYS post, (3) joined up and withdrew later without actually having done anything, or (4) joined up and stopped responding to e-mail later without having done anything.

So no, it doesn't work, and I assume that neither do the little icons that go with your profile, and neither does the 'Help wanted' thread (if I state that ATOTK is more attractive than most projects in that thread, and it got two or three reactions toal, then most projects there will get zilch).

Tough luck, eh? I believe that nearly every AGS game is made by two or three people that do everything themselves; something like one coder/artist, one supplemental artist, and one musician. There doesn't appear to be any room for people who cannot do art but only want to do the programming and scripting (or worse, only have a l33t ide4).

I think it's quite possible in the forum to get a musician for your already-mostly-finished game, but other than that I am very sceptical about the entire procedure. It's just wishful thinking. Yes, game design using people met over the internet can work just fine. And no, neither a forum thread nor a special script page is going to be of much use for finding those people.

[Nikolas]

I belong to (5) with ATOTK. Still on the team (although I little slow in responses.. sorry Radiant)...

Now on succesful stories...

I met esper a long time ago after he posted a petition for help, which was locked by a mod after 2-3 posts. We started discussing and liked each other, which eventually led to the hearts of abraxas, a theatrical play, but not the game initially we started talking about.

I have personalyl met people over the internet (not AGs though), and I can say that right now I@m working with these people, on a paid position. Don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I think that wit ha little bit of good faith things can work out pretty well for both parties.

On the other hand a couple of asking help posts I've made, got no repsonses whatsoever... But asking for help in the gen-gen (thanks helm for the term) has given me plenty of help.

A noticeboard will be better, as long as it is kept clean and this is the main thing. The 1 month and then delete if not updated is a brilliant idea.

[MrColossal]

I'm sure little things have worked out, finding someone to proof read or provide some voices... But not enough to warrant a sticky or an entire page devoted to it...

If you look at other game design forums they have help wanted threads and, just like ours, it's full of requests and game ideas and it never seems that any of those games get done.

While the sticky could just be done away with it did help in the matter scotch said, getting people to not clutter up the entire forum with help requests, just one thread.

"Every advertiser must update their adds regularly, or they will disappear." would be a neat idea and help end clutter [the page sends you an email or a forum PM and tells you to update or perish] but if the system doesn't work because people don't really want to help anyway...

[m0ds]

The idea sounds good Andail, I'd suggest that any kind of ads page only kept an advert for 10 days or so, then automatically deleted it so the creator would have to go back and re-submit, to minimise wasted space of adverts that aren't taken down.

Anyway, footie time now..

[Steel Drummer]

Yeah, that's a good idea. Most of the people working on my game right now are all people I PMed and asked. I guess no one ever browses the ACR thread much....

[Renal Shutdown]

I never read the ACR thread because I haven't got the time or want to aid some random person on stuff that I, to be honest, don't really care about.

If someone needed help, and we discussed it, I might help.

I'm sure a lot of folk feel the same.

As for Andail's idea, it sounds pretty good, though I can't seeing it having much success.

EDIT:

Also, if I needed help on my own project, I'd ask people I already knew.  Not just hope some random person I've never heard of is bored and needs something to do.

[Ishmael]

I think the noteboard thing would work, if there was a way to ensure people using it are serious about it. Stuff like a popularity rating for users, and if someone posts and ad but just leaves it be after recruiting a few people, the people recruited could give some negative feedback, and if a user gets enough negative feedback they're barred from advertising or commenting on the notes untill the negativety has worn off. That'd need a rate, too.. Like five votes or month or something. Though that might be a bit too fast for some type of people...

[pcj]

Or you could do the negative feedback more like eBay, more of a caveat emptor method.

But I do like the idea, though I've successfully recruited a couple of people from the OYS thread.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

You know, I've been thinking a lot about the current method and how ineffective it is--not by design, but by virtue of the way people browse forums.  Why not create a database similar to the games database, only tailored specifically to interested parties?  When you first sign up for the forums (or via profile) those settings you fill in for what you're willing to help with could actually be contained in an indexed database you can browse, and in addition to those defaults the members could also add a brief bio about themselves and their current availability, things of this nature. 

This database would also allow the members to create/edit/delete a help wanted ad.  This ad would allow precisely what the forum thread currently does (a single post covering images, details, and needed jobs)-- but this created entry would be accessed in a list of similar entries in a 'Help Wanted' Dropdown list on the main page.  Clicking on the Help Wanted Dropdown list would show a list of one line projects (the title of the saved ad).  When a person closes an ad they just delete it and it disappears from the list entirely--something moderators would need access to in case a member has been gone for an exceptionally long period of time, banned, etc.  Alternatively, some kind of timer could be put into effect for the length the original ad can appear in the list, forcing the members to update their needs and status.

Similarly, a 'Help Offered' (or something to this effect drop down list would be on the main page (and anywhere else appropriate) that would have categories like Graphics, Music, etc and take you to an index of members who are 'available' to work on a project.  This availability would be off by default naturally (so people with no interest would not even appear).

I realize this would require effort (perhaps alot) but I am 100% positive it can be done via scripting and would streamline the process so everyone had immediate access to a list of projects and interested members.  I also realize it's not likely to happen, but it's just a thought.   

[Vince Twelve]

I'll just point out that after seeing The Ivy's post in the recruiting thread about needing someone to program Spooks, I volunteered and everything worked out marvelously well even though we'd never spoken previously.

I think a separate page/database would be effective, but I'd worry about it being filled with "I wanna make the best game evar.  Need help with: writing, drawing, programming, music, sound, everything."  Some kind of moderation system would need to be put in place.  I'm sure it's not a major hurdle.

[Helm]

Basically, anyone asking for graphics, especially 20 backgrounds or something can give up before they even post. I don't think the 'Make my graphics' approach has worked, ever... Feel free to correct me though. It's not too difficult to find someone to code parts of your game, or to do some spare music for it. But design/graphics, people should learn to depend on themselves, not because I like seeing bad-looking or bad-designed games, but because everyone around with artistic talent desires to make their own game, or are working with their friends to make their own game.

The CL, and the scripting help sections of the board are far more useful than any recruit service will ever be. Helping people fix their own stuff, not make it for them.

[Radiant]

Stuff like a popularity rating for users, and if someone posts and ad but just leaves it be after recruiting a few people, the people recruited could give some negative feedback, and if a user gets enough negative feedback

The problem with such ratings (as compared to, say, those on eBay) is that making an AGS game can easily take several months or over a year, and thus it is not really possible to get meaningful feedback before the game progresses quite a bit.

(for instance, think of any of those 'big' Sierra/Lucasesque projects; can you remember or figure out from its site (1) whether it's still active, (2) who is currently on the team roster, and (3) who actually did a lot of work on it? For nearly all games the answer is no. Thus you cannot meaningfully rate anyone involved in any of those)


I think we need a /dev/null type thread for all the n00bs who have a good idea and want someone else to do all the work (because they'll clutter the forum if there isn't any). I believe most known and respected forum members can get people on their team if/when they want, but they use other (more personal) means than OCR.

[SSH]

In my experience, #ags is the best place to get help in any aspect of a game

[Radiant]

In my experience, #ags is the best place to get help in any aspect of a game

Ooh, neat. I didn't know we had that. Which server is it on?

[pcj]

irc://irc.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/ags

Or just read the website.

[Ishmael]

A bit offtopic, but..

1. Technical questions, however, should not be asked here. Any scripting issues that you have are better posted on the forums, where more users have more time to look over your question.

is missing or asked on the channel #AGSTech.

[SupSuper]

My idea for an improved Help Us page would be to have anyone that wants help fill in a form like this:
###
Project Name: [=============]

Short description: [==========]

Need help with:
[ x ] Play-testing
[ x ] Voice acting
[ x ] Music
[ x ] Backgrounds
[ x ] Character art
[ x ] Animation
[ x ] Proof reading
[ x ] Scripting
[ x ] Story design
[ x ] Web design
[ x ] Translating

Long description:
_______________
|Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  |
|Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  |
|Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  |
|Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  Ã,  |
|_______________|
###

People that wanted to help out would fill in another form selecting what topics they could help in and any other extra comments, and the project poster would get a mail notification about it. People could also post comments about said project + rating which would help any moderators decide whether a project should be deleted or not.

People could browse through all the projects need help like a forum, being able to filter by topics to help with or rating and such.
I might actually code this if anyone thinks this is a good idea.