Hello everyone, here's a few things that have been bothering me for some time. Since there were no feedback box on the main page, I was forced to register here on the forums. >:(
#1 - Sorting by player rating
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/games.php?action=digest
In addition (or instead) to sort with the AGS panels rating, it would be great to sort with rating given by players. This would give more accurate sorting and thus make it more competitive. Also con of the current sorting by panel rating is that opinion of a few is overrepresented.
#2 - Pick of the month
This is just something that came to mind when I was writing the previous suggestion. There have been some cases that I really doubt the pick of the month, don't get me wrong here, the games picked are at least avarage, but it's really shame when there's a lot of greater games without recognition. In the long run, the pick of month loses it's value when the game is more or a less just a random pick (with some exaggeration.)
It's really great publicity to the game and to be fair to everyone, it would be better if the game is voted every month from few to ten choices. Or possibly people could suggest games to be the game of month. (Or something even better?) As a concerned gamer and possible future adventure game maker, I think it's too much authority for one man! :o
I agree for the "pick of the month" section.
The only game that I played from "pick of the month" was "La Croix Pan". The game is good but the game resolution 320x240 ruined everything good in the game. On my screen resolution 1024x768 the game in 320x240 doesn't looks very nice. Yes, it has an option to play the game in small window, but in small window I can't feel the game. I can't feel the atmosphere of the game when I see all other icons and toolbars on my operation system. In 2008 in "pick of the month" section there is only one game in 800x600 - Purgatorio. All others are in 320x240 or 640x400...
With AGS you can create a games in 800x600 (32 bit colors). And I want to see more games in 800x600!
I would absolutely hate to see games being chosen based on their resolution. Not just because mine are all low res, either.
Maybe, as game author you will hate to see game chose by game res. But If we ask players...they will choose the high resolution.
I think that AGS will become more popular with games made in high resolution!
Keep in mind that most game authors are also game players ;).
I have a lot of games in my collection, and I can play a 2007 game at high resolution and a 1993 game with a very low resolution and be just as immersed in each one.
I respect that you enjoy higher resolution games, and I can see why. I just honestly cannot see any validity to the argument that having a higher resolution makes a game any more worthy of a player's attention :).
Higher resolution games also tend to make for larger downloads. Larger downloads tend to lose audiences that just can't download such big files due to slow/unstable connection, etc. So game-makers prefer smaller resolution and smaller files that are easy to distribute online.
The panel rating has been discussed extensively on the forums. It's been argued that player ratings are too easily manipulated to give inaccurate impressions of a game. So either way it's not an accurate sorting.
No offense, but that "high resolution" argument reminds me of the people who download loads and loads of movies and watch them and if you ask them about any of those movies, they'll say:
"Not bad, clean sound and good rip."
-"So, what about the movie?"
"Hm, can't remember. I think it sucked."
Tell me guys what do you prefer? A same game in 320x240 or in 800x600?
320x240
Quote from: Stan on Thu 16/10/2008 09:24:00
Tell me guys what do you prefer? A same game in 320x240 or in 800x600?
A
GAMEResolution is a technical issue and nothing more.
Ok. Which screenshot looks better?
(http://www.prisonbreakquest.hit.bg/viewImage.jpg)
OR
(http://www.t-vandepoele.be/pms/e107_plugins/image_gallery/viewImage.php?type=glimage&name=fbdca446908ba71ae16925ba15fc3204.png)
Or, for another comparison:
(http://ssh.me.uk/img/awesome800x600.png)
versus
(http://www.barnettcollege.com/pix/screenshot05.jpg)
Ahaha Stan, Stan, Stan.
Yes, the bottom screenshot looks better, and we all know why - because you resised a screenshot designed for a certain resolution to prove your point.
Games built at 640x480 and lower resolutions have graphics designed to work at that game's resolution. Resizing this screenshot proves that resizing a screenshot makes it look terrible. It does not prove that higher resolutions are better.
Stan, my man, this horse is dead. You seem determined to keep flogging it, but I honestly cannot think of any actual evidence suggesting that you will bring it back to life.
While we're making basically pointless comparisons, take a quick comparison between the screenshots of Simon The Sorcerer 1 and then Simon The Sorcerer 3d.
Simon The Sorcerer (http://www.muenster.de/~tomjoad/ScummVM_Simon1.jpg)
Simon 3d (http://ui01.gamespot.com/640/5569_2.jpg)
It doesn't prove anything, really, but it's interesting to see how the graphics "advanced" with technology ;).
SSH,
Earlier I agreed that there a bad games in hi res! But the question is that there are good hi res games that don't appear in the special sections on this website. And smumm - the author of the topic said the same. These low-hi res arguings are just part of the main topic.
Are you saying that none of the classic adventure games by Lucasarts or Sierra appeal to you? If so then you're probably in the wrong place, since a great majority of people here were inspired by those games. Also, your approach to show the difference in resolutions is highly flawed; try showing an image from a game in its native resolution as a comparison next time, like:
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/SimontheSorcerer_4.png)
or
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/LegendofKyrandia2-HandofFate_7.png)
Here's a more valid comparison of styles.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/sam_and_max_screenshot.png)
vs.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/SnMMoaiA.jpg)
I couldn't find a screenshot closer to the angle of the original Sam and Max, but it's enough for you to see the difference in detail and design choice.
Personally, I find the old adventures much more rich in style and details than many 3d (and some of the newer 2d) adventure games.
If you have suggestions for good games (of any resolution) that could be pick of the month, I'd be glad to hear them. I have over the history of picking received a total of about 5 suggestions, so more are welcome.
For earlier discussions on this, please see: this thread (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=31564.0) and this thread (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=27736) and this thread from before I started doing it (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=15411)
also see the explanations as to why games to chosen in my blog (http://ags-ssh.blogspot.com/search/label/Pick%20of%20the%20month)
As for sorting by rating, why not try: my AGS-games-DB-derived page (http://ssh.me.uk/ranking200807.html)
And as for higher resolutions, I don't think the OP mentioned that at all...
To answer the question from the other thread:
'Why games like Al Emmo, Diamonds in the Rough, Picaroon, Cosmos Quest don't appear in "Pick of the month"?'
Commercial, Commercial, Not released, Not got around to it yet
I think that the games in 320x240 have a big MINUS. Is you want to play them like the way they are designed you have to play them in a small window instead of full screen. And this is the real problem.
- If you play them in a small window you a loosing from the game's atmosphere. You see the WINDOWS icons and buttons, and toolbars. Also somethimes the game can be a pixelhunting because of the small window.
- If you play them at full screen - the resizing is terrible.
I prefer to play hi res in full screen. In 800x600 there is also resizing if your monitor is 1024x769 but that resizing is not too much.
Quote from: Nikolas on Thu 16/10/2008 09:45:06
Resolution is a technical issue and nothing more.
I have to disagree. I don't agree with Stan's fervent objections to low res, and I think scaling settings can help get around the problem he's talking about in the post above. That said, resolution along with pallate is an aesthetic issue as well as a technical issue. Higher resolution and more colours offer artists more options.
That doesn't mean better games, of course so I don't think being able to search based on resolution would be that essential.
Quote from: Smumm on Thu 16/10/2008 04:03:07
#1 - Sorting by player rating
On that I agree.
I think Stan hasn't realised about the 2x and 3x filters in the game's setup.exe, or the larger resolution options in older games.
I've updated the game ranking pages to include the latest ones (only games with a user rating are included, btw): http://ssh.me.uk/ranking200810.html
It also now has a resolution column so you can see that 17 games out of about 500 are 800x600. Which is maybe why you don't see many in the pick of the month. (The only one, I think, has been the farm)
Quote from: SSH on Thu 16/10/2008 12:37:41
I've updated the game ranking pages to include the latest ones (only games with a user rating are included, btw):
I almost forgot about the page made by SSH. Here you can sort them in any order you like: thanks again SSH!
2x and 3x filters helps, but not enough! Another thing: I can't run any game 320x200 on my PC. The new video cards doesn't support this resolution.
The small quantity of 800x600 games is not a reason not to include them in pick of the month.
Quote from: SSH on Thu 16/10/2008 12:37:41
I think Stan hasn't realised about the 2x and 3x filters in the game's setup.exe, or the larger resolution options in older games.
It also now has a resolution column so you can see that 17 games out of about 500 are 800x600. Which is maybe why you don't see many in the pick of the month. (The only one, I think, has been the farm)
I wish people could read up on previous discussions on users' rating and why they're not reliable.
Game authors, shamefully, have a tendency to pimp their own games by giving them the highest score multiple times, while lowering the score of competitors' games systematically.
Users don't have criteria to follow, their votes cannot be discussed, appealed or reversed.
Even when we only had users' rating, we still didn't sort the games by them, because it just caused problems.
Even the best created adventure game could be lost here. This website needs more special sections like "Pick of the month". And these special section should contain the best games from the website!
The best game should be lifted up!
Quote from: Stan on Thu 16/10/2008 12:56:51
The small quantity of 800x600 games is not a reason not to include them in pick of the month.
I'm not saying it is, but it would be unfair for them to be proportionally overrepresented. I have chosen 31 games for pick of the month and 2 of these are 800x600 (I forgot META, too). That makes about 6.4%. 17 out of 500 games that are user-rated makes about 3.4%. Therefore 800x600 games are actually already over-represented in my choices. :P
And as for special sections, the AGS Awards are voted for by forum members. Why not check out the winners there?
So I think that you admit that there is discrimination for 800x600 games. What are these percents? Every game is a game.
I suggest in the main page of the site to put a message:
"Do not make game in 800x600. They have a smaller chance to be included in Pick of the month section."
Quote from: SSH on Thu 16/10/2008 13:46:44
Quote from: Stan on Thu 16/10/2008 12:56:51
The small quantity of 800x600 games is not a reason not to include them in pick of the month.
I'm not saying it is, but it would be unfair for them to be proportionally overrepresented. I have chosen 31 games for pick of the month and 2 of these are 800x600 (I forgot META, too). That makes about 6.4%. 17 out of 500 games that are user-rated makes about 3.4%. Therefore 800x600 games are actually already over-represented in my choices. :P
And as for special sections, the AGS Awards are voted for by forum members. Why not check out the winners there?
Quote from: Stan on Thu 16/10/2008 14:08:52
So I think that you admit that there is discrimination for 800x600 games. What are these percents? Every game is a game.
I suggest in the main page of the site to put a message:
"Do not make game in 800x600. They have a smaller chance to be included in Pick of the month section."
I just proved that they have a larger chance.
I admit that I discriminate for good games. I really don't understand how you can read what I said as discriminating against 800x600. If you have a specific non-commercial, released game that you'd like to recommend for POTM, please suggest it.
You know, sometimes my 5-year-old says "Daddy, why haven't you got me a drink, I'm thirsty" and that's the first I hear of it. My response is usually "I'll get you a drink as soon as you ask nicely". Hey, a five-year old needs to learn to deal with the issue rather than question someone's motives. Fair enough, they're a kid. How old are you?
Quote from: Andail on Thu 16/10/2008 13:35:00
I wish people could read up on previous discussions on users' rating and why they're not reliable.
Game authors, shamefully, have a tendency to pimp their own games by giving them the highest score multiple times, while lowering the score of competitors' games systematically.
Users don't have criteria to follow, their votes cannot be discussed, appealed or reversed.
Even when we only had users' rating, we still didn't sort the games by them, because it just caused problems.
Let me respectfully say that the "sort by rating" topic isn't that straightforward. Maybe I'll try to elaborate a bit this statement with some meaningful(?) numbers (a report on another topic (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=35133.0) spurred many friendly, and imo meaningful, opinions).
To be honest: I think CJ stated on these boards that he's a against it and the opinion of our landlord is what I follow. :)
bicilotti out, let's get back throwing stones to SSH! :=
6.4% is that a larger chance? Every game is a game. For the "pick of the month" they shoudn't be devided!
Quote from: SSH on Thu 16/10/2008 14:10:56
Quote from: Stan on Thu 16/10/2008 14:08:52
So I think that you admit that there is discrimination for 800x600 games. What are these percents? Every game is a game.
I suggest in the main page of the site to put a message:
"Do not make game in 800x600. They have a smaller chance to be included in Pick of the month section."
I just proved that they have a larger chance.
Quote from: Stan on Thu 16/10/2008 14:13:35
6.4% is that a larger chance? Every game is a game. For the "pick of the month" they shoudn't be devided!
I'll explain it in simple terms.
Of 17 800x600 games, I have chosen 2 to be pick of the month. That is 6.4% of all picks of the month BUT 11% of all 800x600 games.
Of 480-ish other games I have chosen 29 to be pick of the month. That is about 6% of all games.
Therefore 800x600s are over-represented. Like in the same way scottish voters are over-represented in the UK parliament because constituencies cover lower populations in Scotland. But there are still less Scottish MPs than English MPs becuase England has a much bigger population than Scotland.
Next you'll be complaining that there are no 1024x768 games as pick of the month. There's a good reason for that...
Spoiler
NO ONE HAS EVER RELEASED ONE YET
Stan, SSH was only stating that there are not that many hi res game in the database. As there are few hi res games in the database and as not everyone of them is a gem (unfortunately), you expect to see more low res games in the "pick of the month" showcase.
He was not telling he does not want to choose a hi res game just because they are now lot res.
And he's a nice guy and did lot to the ags community! And he's got a great blog! And the "pick of the month" made me discover many nice games! So try to be kind with him! :)
edit: gaaah the scot was faster (and more humurous) than me
SSH, sorry if I wasn't kind.
I understand. If you divide the games by resolution for pick its understandable. But why you have to do it. If someone make a GREAT game that everybody likes in 800x600 and the quota for the pick of the month is spent what you will do? You will publish a game that is not that good but in 320x200 because they have quota?
I think that the games should be devided by resolution for the pick of the month.
I think you're misunderstanding SSH, Stan. There is no quota for hi-res games, he's just showing you numbers of what has been chosen in the past. The numbers would no doubt fluctuate and change as the resolution of the games being made changes.
Quote from: Ali on Thu 16/10/2008 11:58:57
Quote from: Nikolas on Thu 16/10/2008 09:45:06
Resolution is a technical issue and nothing more.
I have to disagree. I don't agree with Stan's fervent objections to low res, and I think scaling settings can help get around the problem he's talking about in the post above. That said, resolution along with pallate is an aesthetic issue as well as a technical issue. Higher resolution and more colours offer artists more options.
My reply was, of course, over stretched to reach Stan's ideas...
QuoteThat doesn't mean better games, of course so I don't think being able to search based on resolution would be that essential.
And I do agree.
But indeed, while technical issues can lead to aesthetic issues (4 colour CGA will have different aesthetic than S VGA with the 16 million ones). Pixel art, necessarily will be different, than high res 3-d art and so on.
But I'd like to say that this is more necessity than aesthetic choice!
Ah the age old question: Is bigger better?
Well is it?
Quote from: Stan on Thu 16/10/2008 11:44:51
I think that the games in 320x240 have a big MINUS. Is you want to play them like the way they are designed you have to play them in a small window instead of full screen. And this is the real problem.
- If you play them in a small window you a loosing from the game's atmosphere. You see the WINDOWS icons and buttons, and toolbars. Also somethimes the game can be a pixelhunting because of the small window.
- If you play them at full screen - the resizing is terrible.
I prefer to play hi res in full screen. In 800x600 there is also resizing if your monitor is 1024x769 but that resizing is not too much.
You know, this has nothing to do with resizing or the resolution of your monitor. Games looked exactly the same when they were running on 320x200 VGA screens. It's simply a pretty low resolution, so unless the screen is tiny, it's going to look blocky.
You don't like blocky graphics. We get it. But not a lot of people here are going to agree with you that a game like La Croix Pan is "ruined" by being in oldschool VGA resolution. If you can't appreciate the great art in screens like those ProgZmax posted, I feel sorry for you. If you worry more about the technical resolution than about the actual quality of the graphics, or of the story and the gameplay, I think you're an idiot.
Now, one thing I would agree on is that the increasing difficulty of getting 320x200 games to run in Windows is a problem. I am almost 100% certain that all modern graphics cards
can render this resolution, simply because it's part of the VGA standard, which all PC graphics cards pretty much need to support. However, I do find that I cannot currently set this resolution in Windows, not even under the advanced settings of my graphics card. I know I used to be able to, with the same card and the same monitor, so it's probably something that's being blocked either by Windows XP, or the drivers for the graphics card or monitor. I am determined to find a way around it.
Meanwhile, turning on the 2x filter should make it work in all cases without affecting the look of the game at all. Doesn't the latest version of AGS try this automatically if the 320x200/240 setting fails? If not, it definitely should. There are probably some players who can't figure out how to fix it and give up on playing the game.
Ah, how time flies.
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=24766.msg340965#msg340965
QuoteIf you can't appreciate the great art in screens like those ProgZmax posted, I feel sorry for you. If you worry more about the technical resolution than about the actual quality of the graphics, or of the story and the gameplay, I think you're an idiot.
I can't agree with you more.
Stan, this is a dead-end argument for you. You obviously have a taste for higher resolution as well as many others, including main-stream game players, and that's fine.
I for one love, prefer and will create all of my games in 320x200(240). There's countless games made in that res with beatiful backgrounds.
Personally, and I don't mean to knock anybody out there, but I can't stand when people create adventure games around here in 800x600. They just don't seem to do it right. There's too much emty space and the backgrounds are nothing that couldn't have been easily made for 320x200(or 240) and look much better. It makes it look too... I don't know, it just doesn't work for me. I don't see the point of the new addition of 1024x768 in AGS, either.
All in all, that is my personal opinion. I'm more likely to read about/download games made in lower resolutions. But, don't get me wrong, I won't ignore the higher ones just because.
--EDIT--
QuoteThis game is proof that 320x200 is not dead :) ...
Stanley Stanley Stanley...
--Snake
This controversy is pointless. Different people, different taste. I personally prefer high resolution. But I'm also playing low resolution. The latest game that I played was Space Quest 0: Replicated (320x200 - 16 colors). And I must say that I enjoyed it a lot! But if Space Quest 0: Replicated was made in high resolution by the same author, I'm sure the game would bring me more pleasure.
Quote from: Smumm on Thu 16/10/2008 04:03:07
#1 - Sorting by player rating
In addition (or instead) to sort with the AGS panels rating, it would be great to sort with rating given by players. This would give more accurate sorting and thus make it more competitive. Also con of the current sorting by panel rating is that opinion of a few is overrepresented.
This has been discussed before -- basically there are a couple of reasons for not sorting by rating:
* User votes are unreliable and have been known to be rigged by some game authors (sadly)
* Games with only a few votes can easily swing wildly from 100% to 50% to 75% as new votes are added. Therefore games with less than 20 votes would have to be excluded from the sort -- and that's a large number of games.
QuoteThis is just something that came to mind when I was writing the previous suggestion. There have been some cases that I really doubt the pick of the month, don't get me wrong here, the games picked are at least avarage, but it's really shame when there's a lot of greater games without recognition. In the long run, the pick of month loses it's value when the game is more or a less just a random pick (with some exaggeration.)
The "best" games are supposed to be reflected in the AGS Awards. The Pick of the Month is supposed to be to bring attention to good games that many people might have missed. Therefore you shouldn't expect every good AGS game to get a Pick of the Month, because they should be rewarded by the AGS Awards instead.
You know, I agree that I would like some more sorting options in the Games DB, but I disagree with just about everything else that's been suggested. I think sorting by blue cups rather than user ratings is a good idea for all the reasons described, although if we came up with a formula in which user ratings were transformed into a score which was balanced by the number of votes and how many of those votes were by people who had completed the game I would be more open to it. Discriminating between high- and low-resolution games is a bad idea because there are fantastic and terrible examples of both and because if we only rewarded high-resolution games we just wouldn't have any games to reward. Additionally, I like the function of the pick of the month as a nod to good games that might have been missed.
The improvement that I would like to see is the ability to order my search results according to differing criteria - right now results are always returned in alphabetical order, and I would like to be able to return them in order of things like release date, blue cup rating, maybe the principal author's name.
User votes and comments allow a broad range of opinions to be expressed about the quality of a certain game. In this way, they can be a helpful resource. As a way to "officially" rate games or as a method of cataloging the database in any meaningful way, they are almost useless. The same goes for basing a games popularity on the number of times it has been downloaded; a function which has also been grossly abused in the past.
As for "Pick of the Month" games, these are games that SSH either particularly likes or those that he feels deserve a greater level of exposure. As far as I know, he doesn't base them on any predetermined criteria; resolution certainly wouldn't be an issue.
I agree that a few extra sorting criteria for the database wouldn't hurt.
I honestly don't know if I ever played a 800x600 resolution game, since I don't care about that.
But since the game's resolution is already recorded in the database, why not allow people to search for a specific resolution?
Also, I think it's good that the pick of the month it just one person's choice, and SSH seems more than qualified, having the #1 AGS blog.
Yes, you could make a shortlist and let people vote on them, but who'll compile that shortlist? ;)
Look at it this way: a "pick of the month" is usually done by an editor or a panel of editors. SSH just happens to be our editor-in-charge of this section of the site. His only criteria is to pick what he thinks are good games that may have been overlooked by players. So your favourite 800x600 games didn't get in there - that's probably because they don't already need the extra exposure. There's no need to have a separate section based on resolution - might as well have a separate section for games with voiceovers and game with no voiceovers, too, because everybody prefers games with voiceovers, yes? :P
I agree that SSH is as good a person as any to pick the game of the month. He is dedicated to the community (as you'll see if you follow his blog) and he tries to remain as impartial as one person can be. His observations about games tend to be spot on. I'm not in favour of votes or anything of the kind as they're far too easily rigged.
I don't like the general public voting on games because a large hand full of the votes, are no doubt, done by people who vote 10 if they loved the game or 1 if it wasn't the best game. I've scrolled down the new ratings list several times and haven't disagreed with a single vote yet. But when it came to the old 'user' ratings, it was chaos and sporadic.
In respect to the pick of the month: SSH, keep up the good work buddy.
As for Stan feeling there is bias towards 800x600 games being omitted from the pick of the month, Only because the community finds lower resolution more appealing, he's wrong. Stan, have you even looked at the pick of the month page? Each game in there is simply there because it's Good.
Wow SSH, nice page, I didn't know about that. This really answers to my prayers! :)
I understand the worry about the public rating being vulnerable to corruption, but the few scumbags that are gonna cheat will do it nevertheless if or if it's not possible to sort by the rating and only thing that can be done is to hinder them with technical limitations (ie. limiting one vote per IP, one vote per user account.) The less people there are voting, the more influence the cheaters have. Even if the sorting would have an effect to cheating, I think it's a self-repairing process. More people will notice the game at the top with high ratings, try it out and will disappoint in the game's low quality and in great disappointment probably give even lower ratings then they would have given otherwise.
But it's not like the AGS panel rating is free from being biased to one way either. We can trust that that they try to do their best, but sometimes their own personal preference differs too much from an average opinion. In the end it's a good thing to have both public and critics rating.
Quote from: Pumaman on Thu 16/10/2008 20:25:04
The "best" games are supposed to be reflected in the AGS Awards. The Pick of the Month is supposed to be to bring attention to good games that many people might have missed. Therefore you shouldn't expect every good AGS game to get a Pick of the Month, because they should be rewarded by the AGS Awards instead.
This is a good point that I didn't take in account. In that purpose it really serves well. Speaking of AGS Awards, seems like this AGS Awards page (http://www.americangirlscouts.org/AGSAwards/) is not updated anymore, is there a replacement for this?
Quote from: Smumm on Fri 17/10/2008 01:47:19
More people will notice the game at the top with high ratings, try it out and will disappoint in the game's low quality and in great disappointment probably give even lower ratings then they would have given otherwise.
This is just my experience, so don't take it as the gospel truth, but I've found that if people don't find a game noteworthy, they simply don't vote. Only if the game is really terrible, will they take the trouble to give it low ratings, and most of the time the games aren't really that terrible. Hence Chris's point about games with few votes.
Again, the discussion about the AGS panel being biased has already been done. The conclusion was that we'd rather have the possibility of a biased panel than a messy voting system.
That said, if something like SSH's page could be done for the games database, that'd be great. :)
Quote from: auriond on Fri 17/10/2008 02:02:59
Quote from: Smumm on Fri 17/10/2008 01:47:19
More people will notice the game at the top with high ratings, try it out and will disappoint in the game's low quality and in great disappointment probably give even lower ratings then they would have given otherwise.
This is just my experience, so don't take it as the gospel truth, but I've found that if people don't find a game noteworthy, they simply don't vote. Only if the game is really terrible, will they take the trouble to give it low ratings, and most of the time the games aren't really that terrible. Hence Chris's point about games with few votes.
I can back this up. Because I want other people to leave critical but constructive reviews of my work, I make sure that I leave a review on every game that I finish (aside from a couple of games that I've skipped over because they already had a mile-long list of comments). The flaw with this is that if I don't particularly care for a game, I don't tend to finish it, and therefore don't feel qualified to vote on it.
Smumm; you're simply wrong.
Quote
I understand the worry about the public rating being vulnerable to corruption, but the few scumbags that are gonna cheat will do it nevertheless
They can't cheat the cups rating, since it's done by a panel. Game authors cheat through user rating and over-downloading.
Quote
only thing that can be done is to hinder them with technical limitations (ie. limiting one vote per IP, one vote per user account.)
Such limitations are already in effect, but cheaters go to great lengths to circumvent them.
Quote
But it's not like the AGS panel rating is free from being biased to one way either. We can trust that that they try to do their best, but sometimes their own personal preference differs too much from an average opinion.
The rating panel works transparently and their decisions can be discussed, appealed and reversed. Their job is monitored by moderators.
There can never be perfect neutrality or objectivity, but we have reached a functional compromise.
Quote
In the end it's a good thing to have both public and critics rating.
We
do have both. We've just chosen not to sort the games by public rating. Which is a good thing for a number of reasons listed already in this thread.
You think more about the website and its navigation. Think about what will happend with this website if after years the game authors are the same as now and produce the same low res games.
I still think that we need to stimulate more the modern tehniques. Now we say - "There are not good enough hi res games". And thats all. But if this website have a future, it is in the more modern games.
But it's only my opinion.
I just don't get it Stan. What exactly is your problem? That there are only a few hi-res games? Obviously people here do not care about the resolution but if a game is good and fun/interesting to play. And this doesn't has anything to do with pick of the month (which I think does a very good job in promoting less noticed games) but with the preferences of people making the games.
You want more hi-res games? Great, so make some, and stop complaining.
Quote from: Makeout Patrol on Fri 17/10/2008 02:10:55
Quote from: auriond on Fri 17/10/2008 02:02:59
This is just my experience, so don't take it as the gospel truth, but I've found that if people don't find a game noteworthy, they simply don't vote. Only if the game is really terrible, will they take the trouble to give it low ratings, and most of the time the games aren't really that terrible. Hence Chris's point about games with few votes.
I can back this up. Because I want other people to leave critical but constructive reviews of my work, I make sure that I leave a review on every game that I finish (aside from a couple of games that I've skipped over because they already had a mile-long list of comments). The flaw with this is that if I don't particularly care for a game, I don't tend to finish it, and therefore don't feel qualified to vote on it.
Admitted, I'm bit of a idealist here in believing that cheated votes would be ran down by masses of honest ones. At least my own sense of justice screams when the rating is too high for a game I dislike.
Quote from: Andail on Fri 17/10/2008 08:57:24
Smumm; you're simply wrong.
(Blah blah..)
Andail, what you said was in no way disagreement in what I said, seems like you are also wrong or you didn't understand my message. If you want I can clear up my points, otherwise I'd rather not quibble over semantics. Only part that really differed was my opinion that ,
"people are going to cheat without caring if it's possible to sort the games by their rating or not".
Since the matter is quite insignificant (and since SSH is providing external interface to DB), I'm not going to go in any greater details, I'll take the author's word if he has seen current way the best.
QuoteYou think more about the website and its navigation. Think about what will happend with this website if after years the game authors are the same as now and produce the same low res games.
I still think that we need to stimulate more the modern tehniques. Now we say - "There are not good enough hi res games". And thats all. But if this website have a future, it is in the more modern games.
Stan, I can now say with assurance that you're just in the wrong place. AGS isn't about trying to keep up with modern gaming trends, and quite frankly, the engine can't compete on the visual level of games you seem to be championing. AGS has always been about keeping the
classics alive in the minds of fans by allowing us to make fan games, remakes, or new games influenced by our nostalgia.
That doesn't mean there aren't fancy games like Diamonds in the Rough, but overall AGSers are more interested in classic gaming and traditional adventure games. Your persistence with this hi-res argument is therefore pointless and more than a little condescending.
Don't come to a community and tell them they have to adapt to your standards or else.
Quotelimiting one vote per IP, one vote per user account.
This is actually how it is set up now, but people have (and continue) to find ways around it, tarnishing the credibility of player votes.
Quote from: Smumm on Fri 17/10/2008 01:47:19
This is a good point that I didn't take in account. In that purpose it really serves well. Speaking of AGS Awards, seems like this AGS Awards page (http://www.americangirlscouts.org/AGSAwards/) is not updated anymore, is there a replacement for this?
Try The AGS Awards Wiki page (http://www.americangirlscouts.org/agswiki/AGS_Awards)
Quote from: Stan on Fri 17/10/2008 09:19:41
I still think that we need to stimulate more the modern tehniques. Now we say - "There are not good enough hi res games". And thats all. But if this website have a future, it is in the more modern games.
Who the heck do you mean by "we"? We're not all just one big lump that collaborate with each other. We're all individuals here and do whatever the hell we please. You should realise that whatever you say will not affect any part of this community in anyway, not after all the silly comments you've posted.
This website is just a place where people share the things they make with each other. It's not a corporation. Nothing, NOTHING, is gonna change if everyone suddenly started making high-resolution games. Just because all these AGS games have been posted in the same place it doesn't mean that they affect each other and the website as a whole.
Quote from: Stan on Fri 17/10/2008 09:19:41
Think about what will happend with this website if after years the game authors are the same as now and produce the same low res games.
This has always been what AGS is about. Always. Sure, people have started making more commercial quality games that fit today's standards recently, but still the retro spirit is around. It's worked for this place for many many years and it's still working. The website and the community isn't gonna be destroyed if we stop making the kind of games most people here like. That'd be just illogical.
As ProgZmax said, you can't come to a community and expect the people there to change their habits to suit you more just because you want.
Quote from: KhrisMUC on Thu 16/10/2008 17:58:22
Ah, how time flies.
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=24766.msg340965#msg340965
Stan you just got owned..Anyway, as someone very brave once said "It's not the pixels, baby.. it's how you USE them."
Dualnames,
Yes, everybody like old Sierra quest, even me! Few hours ago I post in "Best adventure game of all times"! Check my favorite games there! But these games are in the past!
Quote from: Stan on Fri 17/10/2008 13:46:24
Yes, everybody like old Sierra quest, even me! Few hours ago I post in "Best adventure game of all times"! Check my favorite games there! But these games are in the past!
Yes, unfortunately they are. And that is exactly why things like AGS exist. I think I speak for most of the people around here when I say we liked the past and we want to bring back if only the nostalgic retro feeling of those games. This is why your arguments about making this all modern are a bit useless.
Ok. So there is no place for a progress here on AGS website? So here is like an old pub with old men who are talking about the old times?
What you're talking about has nothing to do with the website. You're talking about the games, and you can't affect on how people want to make their games. Some people like progress, some don't. Whatever it is, it doesn't have an impact on the website! Things will be the same around here whether or not people make hi-res games. As I said, this is just a place to share work.
Quote from: Stan on Fri 17/10/2008 13:57:49
Ok. So there is no place for a progress here on AGS website? So here is like an old pub with old men who are talking about the old times?
Interesting judgment. Perhaps you are even trying to be insulting. Black and white photography is still a valid form of art. "But why not use colours!? ???"
I don't want to.
"Progress" takes more form than just resolution. Game features extend well beyond this.
If you want high res games, make them yourself. Otherwise, be satisfied with what you get. Most of these games are free - it is a little pathetic to be whining about games that authors make for you to play in their free time without asking for financial compensation for their efforts.
Be grateful that such a community even exists in such a highly commercialized world, and stop complaining about things just because you have an opinion.
I hate to be a wanker when I post, but you just don't give up. It seems pretty clear that you are alone here. As ProgZmax said, if you don't like the way things are done, go somewhere else, and stop complaining to the good people here that make good games for us to play for free :(!
Quote from: Stan on Fri 17/10/2008 13:57:49So here is like an old pub with old men who are talking about the old times?
Well, no, AGS is a pub with people saying: those old times were great! Let's create some more old times!
Just because something's in the past doesn't mean you can't enjoy it anymore.
QuoteI think I speak for most of the people around here when I say we liked the past and we want to bring back if only the nostalgic retro feeling of those games.
Here here. I think this sums up the AGS community rather well, really. There are an abundant number of websites devoted to new, flashy games, and no one here is saying there's anything
wrong with that, but when you act like there's something wrong with people who like older games and dedicating a forum to it you are clearly in the wrong.
I will repeat: this does not seem to be a community suited to your needs. Please stop telling us we need to make newer, hi res games because the past is the past and old resolutions aren't nice looking.
Okay?
I released a game in 320 x 200 and Stan's insistence has made me realize how ashamed I should be of that fact. While I am a full-time student who also has a job and several other commitments, leaving me with precious little time to spend pouring love and care over each pixel in a 1024x768 background for a hobby that I receive no compensation for other than the pride that I can take in putting a game together and the knowledge that other people (hopefully) enjoyed it, Stan has now made me realize that I was actually being selfish by not devoting my entire life to distributing high-resolution games to strangers for free over the Internet. Goddammit, Stan put time into playing those games (or at least glancing at the screenshots for a moment), time he'll never get back, and what did he get? Have we forgotten that we owe this man a modern professional-quality product for no recompense whatsoever? Have we forgotten that there are people who do not share our nostalgia for the games we played in our youth and that this makes our wish to recreate those memories and styles wortheless and illegitimate somehow?
Here is my cup:
1. I always liked 320x200 (240) res adventure games more than anything higher. I grew up with them I found out that they can offer me much more than any newer commercial adventure game.
I still think that The Dig and Fate of Atlantis are the best adventure games ever made, with rich graphics, great story and warm and fuzzy filling of a AMAZING GAME (ok Monkey Island too :) ).
Anyways, I don't like where today games are going (all genres). A lot of them feel empty and far too much commercialized. And we are getting the "same" game all over again and again, repacked... they just feel empty !
I am sorry but games have become a great place to earn money and it shows on the products. Although not all is that bad, some games are great (like Half Life 2...). But you rarely see any good adventure these days.
2. For us, hobby game makers it is hard to draw graphics in high resolution Most of the people want to draw it with mouse not use fancy expensive software that can draw instead of them.
You know how much harder is to draw 640x480 than 320x240 ? Let me say, A LOT. And it takes a lot of free time, even this low res games are very time consuming. And if not done properly a higher resolution will give you far worse results.
->as always my English is not commendable
Guys, when I say "lets make a better games", I didn't mean to make it like "larry 8" (it's a terrible game)! For a example: "Sektor 13" games are very good! I like them. Nice graphics, nice colors.
Can you make one of those "better" games and not post until you've done so, please?
Andail, can you fix your sceenshots for your games, before you post!
Quote from: Andail on Mon 20/10/2008 08:58:03
Can you make one of those "better" games and not post until you've done so, please?
Stan, can you shut up please?
What do you want? I just report a bug for non showing screenshots!
Quote from: terrorcell on Mon 20/10/2008 09:12:02
Stan, can you shut up please?
Stan, I'm the 3rd man to tell you this, I think!
Just SHUT UP! Ok? quit posting, and quit chassing anything about this community that the WHOLE bloody community does not care about, but only you! Quit it, ok? Let go!
AGS website can be whatever EACH BLOODY MEMBER wants! If they want it to be the low res, graphics place, let it be. If they want it to be a high resolution (Vince XII has made one and Atropos as well), then let it be one. If they want to play Dos games, let it be one.
For fucks shake, quit acting like you know better with any kind of arguments, because they are simply lame and not worth the trouble anyone is going through to let you know!
Really, relax, leave and come back after a few weeks time to deal with YOUR game. Or maybe express KINDLY what you'd like to see (in which case you'll get the very normal reply "Why not do it yourself".) In fact! WHY NOT write the high res games yourself? Why not give it a try? After all they are SO MUCH BLOODY better than the low res ones, that it MUST be worth the trouble. If you can do it, then make sure your marketing succeeds. If not, then make sure to let us know why on earth you failed, because all the people making games in low res, have their own reasons.
RESPECT EVERYONE ELSE IN HERE AND LET GO