Currently I am in a kick of wanting to create adventure games and it seems that this drive is a more permanent one than usual. So I try my hand at creating some graphics and creating a game and such. You know what? Just creating the simplest graphics or trying to follow the tutorials I have found are just so difficult. I cant seem to create a basic room right, EVEN after following a tutorial!
Yet, I see soooo many GREAT games out here and that have been released over the years such as Rob Blanc, Garfield, A tale of two Kingdoms, Shaila of the Sith, Fatman, The apprentice Games, JP Cosmo games, Charlie Foxtrot, The Cosmo Quest Trilogy, Larry Vales, Life of Donald Duck, Zak 2, Maniac Mansion Deluxe, Mind's Eye, Pleurghburg, All the VGA remakes and much much more that are just too many to name. And when I see all these games I think "WOW! These guys are great!"
Then I think of some of the older members and new members we have such as Mods, Erica Mclane, Roy Lazarovich, Helm, Phil Reed, Mr. Colosal, ProgZMax, SubSpark and many many others and how they worked hard to support the community in general.
Or even our porters such as Elektroshokker who is doing a find job or ETG and Steve McRea. We really owe a lot of thanks for the hard work they put forth.
Not too mention Chris Jones for creating AGS and sparking more interest in Adventure Games.
I just wanted to say thank you! If you guys have anyone you want to mentione go right ahead.
Now for my suggestions list.... Nah, just kidding ;)
hear hear!!!
I don't feel like sucking AGS off right now, but there is one part of your post that hammered home, something I was thinking about the other day...
Quoteou know what? Just creating the simplest graphics or trying to follow the tutorials I have found are just so difficult.
I'd love to do some research into it, find out how many games have been completed by "musicians" or "programmers", because I'm almost certain just about every "complete game" has been made by someone who can draw. AGS is for everyone yes, but don't kid yourself - you need to be an artist to actually have a hope in hell in completing something decent, worth-while. This is why I have resorted to methods that don't require raw art, perhaps you should too Joey. For example, download a 3D world building program and just make a simple adventure that way. You'd be surprised at how rewarding it is to actually reach room 15, even if the graphics are crap.
Anyways I'm pretty sure there's a similar thread to this kicking about in GenGen, but I'll let it slide :)
Quote from: Mods on Tue 28/07/2009 11:06:45you need to be an artist to actually have a hope in hell in completing something decent, worth-while.
I beg to differ... (http://crystalshard.net?p=5) :)
Radiant, that is some skilled art, so I dont think you can counter Mods on this one.
I think Radiant's point is that you CAN do something decent + worthwile without being an artist, but of course you need an artist to help you then (Radiant didn't make those graphics).
I myself wouldn't ever have had the idea to make a game without knowing my artistic skills..
I don't consider myself an artist at all. But there are still ways around it.
For Anna, I used uber-minimalistic backgrounds and traced over a 3d animation of a walkcycle made by someone else for the character. I used my skills in programming to add a distinctive pseudo 3-d look to the game and, I hope, it stands out for it.
For Linus Bruckman, I spent a long time drawing the cartoon background on the bottom, but kept it simple. It took me a long time to find a style that I was comfortable with that also looked decent. The top section was all google image copy and pasting, with a lot of time spent making it look how I wanted it. There's a long-winded explanation of how I made the art here (http://xiigames.com/2006/12/21/wlbswheac-post-mortem-part-two-art-production/).
If you're not an artist, you just have to have the patience to keep at it until it reaches the level of quality you're looking for. Doing multiple tutorials and reading various photoshop (or whatever tool you use) how-to guides can not only improve your skills at art, but also give you good ideas and help you down the road. If you don't have the time and patience to devote to your art, then you just have to lower the level of quality you're looking for.
Also, remember that there's a difference between artistic quality and technical quality. You may not have the technical ability to do any jaw-dropping art like say, The Whispered World (http://www.adventuregamers.com/gallery.php?id=740) but with your own limitations in mind, you can give your game a style that is easy to produce and of a high artistic quality such as And Yet it Moves (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U-66DD2h60&eurl=http://blog.craftzine.com/archive/2009/04/collage-aesthetic_video_game_a.html&feature=player_embedded) or Little Wheel (http://www.offworld.com/2009/06/gimme-indie-game-the-silhouett.html) (or, I would hope, Anna).
Radiant is a taskmaster, simple as that. ;) That's how he gets graphics. The majority rest of us aren't.
EDIT - I really meant individuals, Joey comes across as an individual game-maker, like me, thats all :)
I may come across as an individual gamemaker, but I am no gamemaker. Atleast not yet.
Very good point :P
I appreciate Dave Gilbert. He's a good egg. These threads tend to turn into back-slapping fests so I'll leave it there.
We cant forget Dualnames and all previous Mags competition hosts.
Here's me saying SSH has done a lot for me with all those nifty plugins and, of course, the walkcycle creator. Plus he basically invented these AGS-game AGS awards, and they are awesome too. And the Marian games. I haven't played one yet, but they must be good because there are so many of them. And he's Scottish and faster than a speeding haggis, and I happen to like haggis. And he keeps this blog that is nice.
If that is not awesome, I don't know what could be*.
* Except, obviously, more haggis.
Ahh haggis... the sumptuous sheep's offal mixed with the hard white fat from a cow's kidneys... wrapped in a cow's stomach....
Yes, I suppose it is quite appealing once you think about it.
Don't mock the Haggis.
Hold on a minute,
QuoteI cant seem to create a basic room right, EVEN after following a tutorial!
LOL, you've been here as long as me and you still can't do this in AGS? That's shocking!!!!
Sounds to me like you should just stick to being a player, Joey! ;)
Art skillz or no, the key to getting a game done is self discipline. You not only have to want to do it, you have to prepare yourself for hours of repeating the same key strokes, code lines, imports etc... Maybe you're a man not bound by routine - like me...but I'm still able to find one when needed, and I think that's all you're really incapable of. Like I said before, I think you'd be surprised - once you start rolling, there's definitely less friction - and you can go for hours ;) ;)
You did have some stuff going with Teh Simpsons gayme once!! ;D Just keep working from the ground up. I don't understand why you don't try some things that require no art, see my demo Games Galore for example. Try working on a menu based game or something. Hell just put a few coloured blobs in a room and make each one go bleep or bloop when you press it - that can be your first game :P Joeys big paint splatter pro.
Well, I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. But don't worry. There are people like Gravity who are even more backwards at coming forwards in game-making than you are :P
Take care bud
PS, this is what my free time is going on at the moment Joey http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs8a3SypFsM ...LGM wont like it :P but graphics aside, its become important to me to just get something done. Surely by now you know certain software that could help you achieve making something?
I should have been more specific when I said I cant even create a basic room... :p I meant I cant even DRAW a basic room. Come on Mods, I created a Simpsons template for download with 40 rooms, 13 characters, 8 GUI's etc... I can use AGS. Its the drawing aspect of it that I cant do well. Just look at my room in the critics lounge.
But I need to start somewhere. Maybe I might join in on the next MAGS competition if the subject is right.
Quote from: Joseph DiPerla on Fri 31/07/2009 15:25:52
I should have been more specific when I said I cant even create a basic room... :p I meant I cant even DRAW a basic room. Come on Mods, I created a Simpsons template for download with 40 rooms, 13 characters, 8 GUI's etc... I can use AGS. Its the drawing aspect of it that I cant do well. Just look at my room in the critics lounge.
Even so, but the stuff what Mods said about self discipline is still valid. Pretty much everyone can learn to draw and create good looking drawings. Some really talented people just learn it faster, maybe with less frustration and that's why they continue to practise and become really good.
AGS really is something you can grow into, I think. Let's take your average computer-using-guy who hears about this cool tool that can make games. There are three challenges now: Learning to script, learning to create graphics, and getting a game out.
For me this was always a pretty parallel thing. I knew my way around Delphi and a game maker called DivPro, so I was able to learn AGS by looking at template code and snippets. I was okay with Paint and could get something decent-looking out of it. And I knew a lot of adventure games, so I started with doing basic puzzle situations.
I think that, as you make progress in any of these three areas, the other areas will improve too. As soon as you're more comfortable with AGS scripting and don't need to check the manual every ten minutes or so, you also come up with neater ideas and start to make, for example, a more personal GUI and so on. This means you spend more time on the graphics, and that usually shows, too. And all of this makes your game more interesting.
Basically AGS is PPP (Practise, Practise, Practise) to the core. Then again, even sandwiches are. And I really think there are some people who will always be more of a "scripter" or more of an "artist".
I don't really know why I posted that, though...
QuoteAnd I really think there are some people who will always be more of a "scripter" or more of an "artist".
I
personally enjoy doing both equally as much.
I especially enjoy scripting arcade games, or GUI's or anything of the sort. Much more challenging and fun.
In high school we only had Turbo Pascal, and I would program my own cpu against cpu strategy game. Never fully completed one, but had the basics working great. Of course the graphics were done through TP, so you can imagine what that looked like. Rectangles, Squares and Circles. :P
But as long as I have a nice storyline for an adventure game; backgrounds and characters aren't so bad either. And I'd like to think I'm pretty good at drawing them.
Don't we have these let's-thank-everybody-threads over at gen-gen at least a few times a year?
I don't know...it's one thing if you've done some kind of achievement and wish to thank those who helped you get there, but these sponteneous displays of admiration tend to be a bit like the best-buddies-lists kids make in school.
As for graphics, there have surely been a decent amount of acclaimed games that don't show any traces of traditional drawing skills.
It's often enough to make art that's consistent, functional and serves its purpose. Pleurghburg is one great example.
Just for that I'll take you off my bestest-buddy-list, Andail. :P
Quote from: Joseph DiPerla on Thu 30/07/2009 03:56:11
We cant forget Dualnames and all previous Mags competition hosts.
Woot, someone did remember me in those Threads..
I'm calling Ashen! Even though he's not here, he always treated me with respect, even when I was a noob. (I'm not saying I'm not yet)
AWWWW. You deserve it DN.
Pssst.... Your gonna fix the votes so I win this month, right?
I love you all and I want to have sex with you.
Yes, you too.
Don't worry Joseph, you're not alone! ;) I've been trying to make a game for quite a few years now and I still havn't managed to release something. I can do ok art. Nothing amazing but as long as people can recognize what I draw it's all fine with me.
As Mods said, self discipline is my problem. I have to be more persistant. I usually start working on a game with all kinds of ideas, but after I've done about 4 or 5 rooms and added some characters and an intro, I get bored of it. I'm currently on my 5th or 6th rpg project with AGS now. At least it gets easier every time I restart, so perhaps the 10th attempt will be a finished game!
Last week my pc broke down just while I was working on the latest attempt. I had everything backed up (lesson learnt in 2001; harddisk crash, Star Spoof gone (http://web.archive.org/web/20010728225928/pub6.ezboard.com/fdosuserforumsadventuregamestudio.showMessage?topicID=2763.topic)) but I couldn't use my pc for a few days. I lost interest during those days and some ideas for a regular adventure game popped up. I'm really trying to be persistant this time and continue work on the rpg.
Sorry for being a bit off-topic!
Yeah tell me about it. I am so tempted to quit this MAGS game. I mean, just look at this head!!!!! Its the main character and it took me an hour to make.
(https://adventurestockpile.sslpowered.com/head.jpg)
Okay, long post coming.
Quote from: Vince Twelve on Tue 28/07/2009 18:53:16
If you don't have the time and patience to devote to your art, then you just have to lower the level of quality you're looking for.
I think the head looks fine. Sometimes it's worth it to just ignore art quality in the interest of just getting something done. If you released a game that had a fantastic story and great gameplay with the worst graphics ever, I admit, you'd get fewer players. But some people will still play it and the word of mouth about the great story/gameplay will bring others. Most importantly, just having something done that demonstrates your worth in the non-art areas of game making will help to attract artists to help out with your future games.
Everyday, when you sit down to work on your game, write down the things that you want to get done in that work session and the amount of time you want to limit them to.
For example, if you find yourself with five hours on a Saturday, here's an example time budget:
-Main character standing sprite (four directions): 45 min
-Main character walking animation side: 1 hour
-import all art so far into game: 15 minutes
-Background for first room: 1 hour
-Post chars and background to critics lounge: 15 minutes
-Implement all code and interaction in first room: 1 hour 45 minutes
Set a timer and hold yourself to those limits. Do not check the internet (except to post in the critics lounge as budgeted). In fact, turn it off. Get rid of any other distractions that you find are slowing you down.
If you don't finish one of the tasks in the alotted time, save what you have and move on to the next. Use what you have so far as placeholder art in the game (Resonance is full of placeholder art that is being slowly replaced). By the end of the day, you have one finished room. The next day, budget some time to check the critics lounge and make some edits. But don't spend too much time! Get the second room done during your next work session. Stay focused on making forward momentum.
I usually follow more loose "do what I can when I can with no time limits" structure while working, but when I find myself with a decent amount of free time (so rare these days :'() I make a list like that. I call it a "Kill Task" day and do not stop until I have killed all the tasks. Quality is not as important as getting it done. Quality can be added on later revisions. Just get it done.
That's how I work. I suggest trying it, it may or may not work for you. If you spend too much time fussing over a head, then you've probably got your priorities out of alignment with what you need for game development.
Quote from: Vince Twelve on Mon 03/08/2009 21:56:27
Do not check the internet (except to post in the critics lounge as budgeted). In fact, turn it off. Get rid of any other distractions that you find are slowing you down.
Yeah, that's one of
my major problems. I'm often distracted and unconcentrated and that is taking away much energy and time. I bet I could easily do all my game (and uni-) related stuff in half the time than it actually takes me.
This thread needs more posts like Ghost's one.
I think SSH is great!!!!!!!! MODULES ROCK!!!!
Just so long as he leaves out such innacuracies as
QuotePlus he basically invented these AGS-game AGS awards,
in the future :P
I invented them in the same way that Al Gore invented the internet
Quote from: Joseph DiPerla on Thu 30/07/2009 03:56:11
We cant forget Dualnames and all previous Mags competition hosts.
What about me? :(. I "donated" the NEW domain :P.
Also I'd like to specially thank a couple of AGS'ers who have been alot of help to me in different ways!
Nikolas!
Nihilyst (yes, I am still gonna finish Companion ;D)
Scorpiorus (wherever you are)
Petra (hopefully you will be back again sometime!)
There are probably alot more people I could thank, but these are the ones that have given me larger amounts of help that I have appreciated ALOT!
Quote from: Mods on Tue 28/07/2009 11:06:45
I'd love to do some research into it, find out how many games have been completed by "musicians" or "programmers", because I'm almost certain just about every "complete game" has been made by someone who can draw. AGS is for everyone yes, but don't kid yourself - you need to be an artist to actually have a hope in hell in completing something decent, worth-while.
Markster, I just think that you're experiencing an early mid-life crisis.
LOL, no no, I'm fine... Well, I'm fine as of about 2 weeks ago when I took a completely new view to 3D modelling and it actually worked out a bit... But I will still continue to hold that view - most of the games that are completed are led by designers who are able to do art, or at least, backup art. Dave, Phil, Yahtzee, Rodekill, Shane, The Schlapfers, Andail, 2ma2...they completed their games cos they can draw, at least, enough to their advantage. Some of us sadly cannot.
What about the man didn't draw his game, didn;t pay for a bg artist and didn't have coolish looking bgs on his game? And won 4 awards or so?
Colourwise that's the game. Bicilotti hired Ghost and the game did have very simple graphics.
I think it depends on your expectations. If you've got commercial expectations and can only draw stick men, obviously you need to rethink what is more important to you: getting your story out there for people to play in spite of modest graphics or waiting and waiting until you can find or afford an artist up to the standards you want?
I've played some good games on the database that had really simple but functional graphics, so I don't think you should let graphics hold you back for a freeware game unless you're really obsessive about vision and making everything just so. Also, this thread's gotten rather off-topic and there's already an active thread about programmer art.
Quote from: m0dsiepoo
LOL, no no, I'm fine... Well, I'm fine as of about 2 weeks ago when...
It's called denial, man, can't you smell it? Hardily Hoodily Hoo!1
Quote from: DualsterBicilotti hired Ghost and the game did have very simple graphics.
I beg to differ, Dauls. They may seem simple graphics at first glance, but, were very precise. The palette was extraordinary. Very well done, simple in the least.
In responce to what this thread was origionally written for:I would like to express how much I appreciate
LEON.
I've already told him how much I appreciate him in a PM like, last year or so, but, I think I'll say it out loud this time - this is what I wrote:
I just wanted to tell you that you need some sort of medal or something.
I was just in the "Hints and Tips" forum to see about Loftus and the Sky Cap and there you are... again. The first thing out of my mouth was, "Jesus, he's right on top a' shit!".
Seriously, man. You do a lot of playing, walk-through making and responding with helpful hints. Down the road I hope you get the AGS recognition you deserve.
My hat's off to you.I'm actually quite suprised that nobody else has mentioned him.
Guys, he responds to, if not all, almost every single thread in the Hints and Tips forum. He's making walkthroughs 24/7 and he's always there when you need him. The guy goes out of his way to know every single little detail about your game.
He's great. I hope there's more out there than just me who sees it.
I totally agree with Snake.
He's always there when someone needs a quality answer in the Hints and Tips section.
He seems to know almost any released ags game in detail.
Plus his website with error free walkthroughs, all of them created by first playing those games.
That's really time consuming. And I know he also does have an ordinary job to do too.
And besides that he is always willing to offer almost any ags game
(normal ones and mags) for download on his site when asked.
A very valuable person for such a community like this in my opinion.
I want to say sorry for the inconsistency. I get carried away to easily.
I also want to marry snake.
Ah, Snakey, you're my favorite as well!! And RickJ is a man to be respected (told in PM as well)
I'm not an artist by any means; I'm just a simple programmer. To get around this, I'm using Poser... yes, you can scoff and laugh and shake your heads all you want, but trust me, it's come a long way.
Have you tried makehuman.org yet?
Yeah, I have. It was OK.
I'd like to propose a toast to absent friends.
And happy days, we thought that they would never end.
But they always end...
Quote from: DC on Sat 22/08/2009 12:19:14
And happy days, we thought that they would never end.
But they always end...
Not unless you're dead.*
Good times are still here. Good times are always here at the forums. Don't you have a good time here, DC?
*= or without internet access
PS
And Ghost, you have my hand... but you must hurry before Dualy gets it :-*
*Cries from happiness*
*Kills Ghost with two fatal blows* (one is never enough)
SSH, Steve McCrea, and Ashen kicked my ass in a very welcoming manner when I first came to AGS all those years ago, and ManicMatt and Nik have been great friends. I just couldn't stay away from this place...