The annual AGS awards debate

[Snarky]

Well, there's at least 3 top quality ones: QFG2VGA, Quest for Yrolg and Little Girl in Underland.

Do you reckon Quest for Yrolg is a QFG parody, though? Just because of the title? Other than that, and perhaps the three classes of hero, I don't see much else to connect them. I think it could be up for best Innovation, though. (There's a little bit of Dungeon Keeper in there, but the Rube Goldberg-style puzzles make for a very different gameplay mechanic.)

You don't want to rub your P3N15 the wrong way, thats for sure.

My current feeling from the debate is that we try having these extra awards out this year and see how it goes. If the Debut and Remake/Parody awards fall flat or just duplicate other awards then we can drop them again. After all, I dropped the best resource award after the time when it only had one nominee...

I'm fine with that. (Yes, you can print that as an endorsement.)

The last list you posted of award categories confused me. You mention a lot of categories that games could be eligible for, but those categories don't show up in the list. Could we have just a complete list of the categories you plan to use, please?

Oh, and I forgot to mention: I thought the in-game awards ceremony was a fun idea. Thank you, SSH! Are you still planning to do it again this year even if m0ds does one on live IRC? If so, here are some ideas for how to take it to the next level:

-Show the current award category on the screen. Last time I kept forgetting which award they were talking about.
-Last time it got pretty obvious that it was all your "voice." Instead, winners should write their own speeches. Either let them know in advance that they've won, or ask each of the nominees to send you a speech to use in case they win.
-You could do the same thing for the presenters, maybe. At least get people to send you more of their characters from the games from the year.
-Music! Sound effects! (Cheering etc.)
-A more elaborate presentation of the nominees would be nice, especially if it could demonstrate what they were being nominated for. I think the way that "background art" was presented last year is a good model for the other categories. Stuff like "best music" and "best dialogue" should be easy enough to demonstrate. For puzzles, you might even give the viewer the option to play a little snippet of the game, if you want to get insanely ambitious about the whole thing.
-A nicer background screen, and maybe some cutaways to the crowd in the auditorium and so forth. I fully support the idea of a background blitz to create these screens.
-The scenery should also include some sort of huge monitor or projection screen where the samples from the games are shown, so they don't just get overlaid randomly on screen.
-The huge Nelly was fun last year, but I think in the future I'd prefer that the in-game awards run in a high resolution and the low-res sprites get scaled up, to maintain roughly consistent proportions between characters.
-Yeah, it would be nice to be able to jump to specific awards. Not really a high priority, though.
-Trophies?

Ummm, yeah. That should do it. You can whip up all that stuff without problem, right SSH?

[SSH]

-The huge Nelly was fun last year, but I think in the future I'd prefer that the in-game awards run in a high resolution and the low-res sprites get scaled up, to maintain roughly consistent proportions between characters.

They were. Even with that, Nelly is still waaaay bigger.

[TheJBurger]

-Last time it got pretty obvious that it was all your "voice." Instead, winners should write their own speeches. Either let them know in advance that they've won, or ask each of the nominees to send you a speech to use in case they win.

But that was my favorite part of the ceremony! 

[Snarky]

They were. Even with that, Nelly is still waaaay bigger.

So... scale them some more? (I know using different scaling for different characters is a bit tricky, but it wouldn't be too difficult to add a scalingfactor property to each character and prescale it by that amount, would it?)

So, what about the full list of categories, and the question of whether to do another in-game ceremony?

[GarageGothic]

Since nobody else followed up on it, I must say that I think SSH's suggestion of running the awards on Stickam is an excellent idea. To me, it would feel more like watching a "real" awards ceremony. Of course the nominees and host would have to dress up - I want to see SSH in a kilt
There could be "red carpet interviews" with attendees before the actual awards begin and using ManyCam it would also be possible to show still frames or even broadcast (pre-recorded) footage from the nominated games. Since the debate function only offers video for the host and the winners, we wouldn't need a separate channel for comments like we had on IRC to avoid clutter. Of course a few winners won't have webcams, or may not want to appear on video, but I'm sure their responses won't be drowned out in the chat window.

The video feed could even be recorded using screen grabber software and offered as download/streaming video for those not able to participate, just like the old IRC logs.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Stickam wouldn't be a bad idea aside from there being no way to prevent people from starting cam spots and interrupting the proceedings.  Unless it was password protected the large number of visitors would likely draw a lot of annoying randumbs as well.

[Sylvr]

Yes, this is one Stickam room that would need a password. I think the awards could work really well there. Granted, I have never seen the awards, or been on IRC.... 

[GarageGothic]

Stickam wouldn't be a bad idea aside from there being no way to prevent people from starting cam spots and interrupting the proceedings.

As far as I know that should not be a problem when using the debate mode - only the mods can allow participants to broadcast video. But yes, it should be password protected if possible not to have too many random people coming and going.

Edit: Can't find anything about password protection, but you can read more about how debate rooms work here: http://webmaster.stickam.com/2007/01/debate_room_beta.html

[LimpingFish]

The Stickam idea would indeed be fun, although pulling it off would be tricky. IRC is hard enough to get organized, and all it requires is people being awake at their keyboards. They don't even have to be presentable; something Stickam would probably be quick to highlight. Cool idea, though.

Snarky's list of upgrades to the in-game ceremony sound cool too, though they also sound like a lot of work. They also ask potential nominees to participate just as much as we've been complaining about in this thread, which probably means they'd cause the same problems. Informing the winners before hand seems to take some of the fun out of presenting the awards; unless they're only informed the day before, which would give them little time to prepare anything.

Still, if the in-game ceremony was to play a larger part, I'd be happy to lend a hand. And in the spirit of doing so...

Possible opening titles idea!

It's rough, it's a Xvid AVI file, and it's only 700kb. Click or Right click to download.

[blueskirt]

Whoa! Many things discussed in the last days.

Regarding the whole "Being imvolved in the community to be eligible for awards" thingy: The AGS awards aren't just a little community activity only for the members of this community. For one, doing so would remove the value of many awards, I want award winners to know they truly deserved their awards, I don't want winners to feel they won a silver medal because other good games weren't competing against them. For two, the AGS awards aren't just a little unofficial side activity, they have their own search category on the official game database and are de facto the official award for all things AGS, and many many other indie and adventure games websites think the same and report the results of the AGS awards for their readers. The AGS awards are already bigger than this forum, and as such, they should reflect all AGS games made during the years and not just the games made by the people who are active on this forum.

About merging the Gameplay and Puzzle: Before it is decided to merge Best Gameplay and Best Puzzle, I think we'd need to define both. In my book, Best Gameplay stand for the gameplay itself, how innovative the game is gameplay speaking, how smooth the gameplay is (easy to use and intuitive GUI, good character walking speed, etc.)... while the Best Puzzle award focus for the puzzle aspect of gameplay, puzzles that aren't too easy nor too hard, that are logical, that are creative and not boring, repetitive or overdone, whether the game features multiple solutions etc. A game could have a bad gameplay but some great puzzles, or play like a charm but feature the most boring and overdone puzzles in existance.

I don't think the Best Remake/Parody category is necessary. Also, Quest for Yrolg might make fun of some fantasy settings conventions, but it's certainly not a parody and doesn't have its place in that category.

I second what Chris said about non-adventure being eligible to all awards as long they fit. That being said, something should be done to the Best Programming award because, it's hard to a lot of voters to judge the code's complexity and non-adventure will always seems more complex than adventures, whether it's true or not.

Could we have a little recap of what is set in stone so far and what isn't? So many suggestions and ideas have been thrown in this thread that it's hard to follow.

[LimpingFish]

"Being involved in the community to be eligible for awards"

I don't think that's what's been proposed; not by me, anyway. I just thought that if the eligibility process was a little more involved, that it might bring more developers into the fold, and perhaps elevate the desire to win an award. As it stands, some developers don't even acknowledge that fact that they won.

If you had to work a little harder to be eligible, you might appreciate the award more. Or not. Who knows?

[Snarky]

About merging the Gameplay and Puzzle: Before it is decided to merge Best Gameplay and Best Puzzle, I think we'd need to define both. In my book, Best Gameplay stand for the gameplay itself, how innovative the game is gameplay speaking, how smooth the gameplay is (easy to use and intuitive GUI, good character walking speed, etc.)... while the Best Puzzle award focus for the puzzle aspect of gameplay, puzzles that aren't too easy nor too hard, that are logical, that are creative and not boring, repetitive or overdone, whether the game features multiple solutions etc. A game could have a bad gameplay but some great puzzles, or play like a charm but feature the most boring and overdone puzzles in existance.

I've always considered Gameplay to be the element of challenging interactivity within the game. The mechanics of play, if you like. So I would give the Gameplay award to the game that offers the most creative, interesting and entertaining interactive mechanic. That could be great puzzles, great minigames, or a great "virtual world" to interact with. Games that are addictive probably have great gameplay. I would also consider things like pacing, learning curve, variation, etc. when evaluating gameplay.

Things like UI and walking speed can affect the gameplay (but then again, so can writing, music, graphics and programming prowess), but are different from what I mean when I use the term. Actually, I would say that gameplay is the thing that means that even if you change everything else, you still have essentially "the same game".

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

The AGS awards aren't just a little community activity only for the members of this community.

I find it odd that people actually believe this when the awards were created for the purpose of rewarding people who made exceptional games for this community.  Why do you think having the game in OUR database is a requirement?  Just to establish a date of release?  I don't think so  .

How can anyone even say this isn't a community activity with a straight face?  :o

[Dualnames]

Y\

The AGS awards aren't just a little community activity only for the members of this community.

I find it odd that people actually believe this when the awards were created for the purpose of rewarding people who made exceptional games for this community.  Why do you think having the game in OUR database is a requirement?  Just to establish a date of release?  I don't think so  .

How can anyone even say this isn't a community activity with a straight face?  :o

People have made exceptional games for other communities(themselves), and we still loved them, so if anyone can say that this not a community activ, that would be Blahtzee. Other than that, I have to say that well, if any game is qualified as made with AGS it should be able to fit in, instead of having to be in the database, but well it would be harder to spot on any AGS game made. Anyway, as for remakes, CASTLE OF FIRE!!!

[SSH]

Why do you think having the game in OUR database is a requirement?  Just to establish a date of release?  I don't think so  .

DGMacphee used to trawl the CGA forum for any games that weren't in the DB, which was an arduous task and not one I'm prepared to undertake. Also, the games DB establishes a date of release. Games need to be in the DB for CJ's final voting script to work, too (in fact, when I submit Pick of the Month I see the possibility of nominating the dummy entries CJ has to make in the DB for the Best Character awards, etc. )

So, actually, they need to be in the DB for convenience's sake, mainly.

[cat]

Why do you think having the game in OUR database is a requirement?  Just to establish a date of release?  I don't think so  .

So Quest for Yrolg isn't a candidate for best parody/remake. Seems to be a special QFG2VGA category  :

[LimpingFish]

Also, the games DB establishes a date of release. Games need to be in the DB for CJ's final voting script to work, too (in fact, when I submit Pick of the Month I see the possibility of nominating the dummy entries CJ has to make in the DB for the Best Character awards, etc. )

So, actually, they need to be in the DB for convenience's sake, mainly.

So, technically speaking, if Yahtzee's later games hadn't been added to the database by a minion, he never could have won an award?  :o

Sounds like more than just convenience, then.

Doesn't this highlight some flaws in the current awards setup?

[SSH]

So, technically speaking, if Yahtzee's later games hadn't been added to the database by a minion, he never could have won an award?  :o

Yes, in the same way that if all the Catholics in the world stopped believing then the Pope would be out of a job... it just doesnt seem likely.

This requirement for the awards has been around for 3 years and is mentioned usually 3 months in advance. And if you don't get your game in in time, you can add it later and be eligible for an award a different year (as happened with Automation).

[m0ds]

If I did do an awards ceromony, it would not be on stickam. Sorry. I hate the f***ing thing. And it has no real relation to AGS. So x, y and that random chick I can't name who's not actually done much towards AGS goes on it. That's all. IRC is a much better choice for 2009

That is all

[blueskirt]

The AGS awards aren't just a little community activity only for the members of this community.

I find it odd that people actually believe this when the awards were created for the purpose of rewarding people who made exceptional games for this community.  Why do you think having the game in OUR database is a requirement?  Just to establish a date of release?  I don't think so  .

How can anyone even say this isn't a community activity with a straight face?  :o

Notice the word "just" in my original quote. It's not just that. Like I said, the awards are used on the official website, and the results are discussed on various indie and adventure games websites around the web. They're something much bigger than say, a Background Blitz, and as such, AGS awards should be about all things AGS, and that include the AGS things happening outside this forum.