Hand-in-hand with the previous forum topic of the most frustrating puzzles, what games do you feel had the most disappointing endings? Either storyline-wise/what you wished happened, or just "Argh! I solved all those puzzles and stayed up til 3 AM trying to get all the points for THAT?!"
I felt that Full Throttle did. I'm a sucker for the unconventional romantic maudlin themes :D and was soooo disappointed that Ben and Mo didn't run off together. I later cried when I found out FT2 was cancelled mid-production.
Same with Book of Spells: the game was really neat and I liked it but the ending just left me so disappointed.
There's a couple more that I can't think of right now...but I'd just like to see who else felt the same way about disappointing game endings.
This kinda got covered in "best endings" too, come to think of it... ah well.
QuoteI'm a sucker for the unconventional romantic maudlin themes
Interesting... I'd have thought that you'd have loved FT's ending, then.
Spoiler
Each one following their own way, Mo still a biker at heart but now stuck to the large corporation, Ben riding into the sunset a free soul like he always was and always will be...
I've heard that "Nine: The Last Resort" has the worst possible ending, made even worse by all the shenanigans you have to put up with until you get there. But this is only hearsay.
Myself, I loathe the "it was all just a dream" ending of Harvester (not even gonna bother "spoilerizing" it...).
I normally get too much of an ego kick out of solving puzzles to be disappointed with an ending.
I was told the ending of monkey island 2 was disappointing, and being a fan of monkey island, I was determined not to be disappointed. But i was. Our hero guybrush is a kid?le chuck is his big brother?
was all of the previous game just these kids playing too?I didn't like it one bit, well, i did like it one bit, but i didn't like it lots of other bits.It seemed almost as lame as saying AND IT WAS ALL A DREAM!
Quote from: eddie hitler on Mon 04/12/2006 17:59:54
Our hero guybrush is a kid?le chuck is his big brother?
was all of the previous game just these kids playing too?I didn't like it one bit, well, i did like it one bit, but i didn't like it lots of other bits.It seemed almost as lame as saying AND IT WAS ALL A DREAM!
What?!?!???? Really???
I won't play it then. Now I already know... :(
hehe...
sorry couldn't offer something constructive in the thread... apart from the above joke... :P
I'm sorry to bring such a unconstructive post to the table, but I had to bring this up regarding the MI2 ending...does anyone have a copy of that thread from aaaaages ago analysing that ending in great detail? I was initially disappointed with the MI2 ending also, but after reading through this and the possibility that it could be more than it seems then I decided I like it. Anyone?
That was a great thread. Wasn't that like the biggest discussion this forums ever had? Hahaha :)
As for endings, I've never really been dissapointed. I think The Dig ending should've gone further, back to Earth for example. It just felt like I'd played forever and been given too short a conclusion. Other than that, most endings I've seen have been really great :)
Though it wasn't the worst,I disliked monkey island 3's ending.The game had beutiful graphics, wonderful in-game movies, a great buildup, and they give us THIS?! Also, the game felt too short.
I pretty much agree with most of the above answers!!
Weirdguy, yes the MI2 ending was just a *tad* disillusioning...but the game's such a great classic that I still love seeing it every time. It's a nice deviation from the norm, just showing them as kids...and then if you sit all the way through the credits there's that endless amount of suggestions of what to do with your spare time.
MI1's ending was pretty cool and
(funny that new post came in, just what I was thinking)
MI3's was too short and yes, disappointing- that little 5 second cartoon was all we got? Come on LucasArts, what happened here!
Rui, well FT's ending was a tad suspenseful in the way
Spoiler
that at first you don't know whose funeral you're at-- if it was Ben's until the movie scrolled all the way to the right and you saw him there. But I'd only played a demo of the game in 1996 so I always wanted and wanted the game and wondered what cool biker story awaited so I was held in suspense until late 2005! Sadly a close friend of mine died the same week i got the game and I was going through a lot of things and I don't know, the ending just made me SAD, in spite of untraditional romantic maudlin theming and all. Then even sadder when I found out there wouldn't be an FT2... But in conclusion, the ending did disappoint me just a tad. But it didn't stop me from discovering the Gone Jackals older music. Ã, :D okay, this is going slightly off-topic.
m0ds- The Dig ending. Come to think of it, I don't think I ever made it to the end!! I was turned off from playing it for a long time namely because stupidly, my version doesn't even have music. :( I think mine came from AGamesRoom before the ESA shut it down and I never got the musicpack. But yes, I never made it to the end of The Dig...now I know that if I do, the ending won't be so great!
But oooh! I can't believe I forgot to mention the mother of Disappointing Adventure Game Endings...
...The Castle of Dr. Brain. After all those brain-teasers...but hey, like Dmitri said, it's that ego boost from solving all those puzzles. Hence what Dr. Brain was originally intended for. ^_^
Phantasmagoria. 'Nuff said.
DC: Indeed! I was 10 years old when that game came out and I remember playing it with my dad, the Carno cutscenes and the demon scared the living crap out of me.
And then all of that insane blood, gore, and intensified storyline...to just have Adrian glare at the mansion then walk away. Definitely ranks up there with the MI3 caliber.
Weeeeeeell, sometimes games and stories feel they can't exactly wrap things up nicely - all's been said and done, they don't want to prolong it to wring out any more emotions (a funeral for Don might work, or it might have been really stretching it, for instance), and really, they don't know how else to wrap things up. So they choose to leave it at that, and let the final images speak for themselves. And this is a matter of taste, but for me seeing Adrianne walking away from the manor (NOT LOOKING AT IT, that's an important bit, 77), tired and dirty and very vacant-eyed, and then having the camera stay and give us a final view of the manor, of how it still stands, having been the scenery to all that's passed before...
...I mean, I don't think it's perfect either, but... well, it didn't disappoint me.
Quote from: veryweirdguy on Mon 04/12/2006 18:07:09
I'm sorry to bring such a unconstructive post to the table, but I had to bring this up regarding the MI2 ending...does anyone have a copy of that thread from aaaaages ago analysing that ending in great detail? I was initially disappointed with the MI2 ending also, but after reading through this and the possibility that it could be more than it seems then I decided I like it. Anyone?
Are you talking about this article?
http://www.scummbar.com/resources/articles/index.php?newssniffer=readarticle&article=2
If non-adventure games count, then I'd like to mention "The Clue!" or was it "Der Clou"?
The game basically has you preforming one heist after another.
Anyway, for the final mission, the game had you preform this insane robbery which might take an hour+ to plan and execute, and then after you skillfully execute it, the game ends with a few sentences.
Pretty disappointing...
Rui: I do see what you're getting it. It is something of an ominous note, I guess I'm always a sucker for closure though. I tend to view the whole final chapter as an extended ending (kinda like FT).
Having said that, I would have liked to have gone back to that mansion. That last shot implied there was still something else inside... one of the reasons Phantas II made me angry.
I do agree it was a difficult piece of acting to pull off, that walk away - I like to think Adrienne's actor pulled it off well, I got a shellshocky vibe from her. Others say she just looked bored though. There's a fine line...
Quote from: BlueSkirt on Tue 05/12/2006 00:20:30
Are you talking about this article?
No, it was actually a thread on the old AGS EZBoard forums I believe. And I'm glad m0dsy remembers it as well as it proves I am not insane enough to make up treads about Monkey Island in my head.
That article looks interesting though, I'll give it a read through later!
I'm not sure whether this was some kind of glitch or something, but when I finished PQ2, all that happened was Sonny and his girlfriend hugged each other, and the game just stopped there. I don't think it locked up. Nothing more happened after that.
Is that the way the game ends? If so, I was disappointed there.
Quote from: Raggit on Tue 05/12/2006 15:00:49Is that the way the game ends? If so, I was disappointed there.
Spoiler
No, after the scene in the sewers, it cuts to the airport where Sonny's boss is seeing him and Marie off (with a jazz band playing in the background). Then there's a short scene of them on the airplane where Sonny asks Marie to marry him. THE END
i just read the article blueskirt posted.thankyou so very much for posting this.I had always thought that the end of MI2 was a slap dash decision and seemed rushed, but this pretty much proves it was not. How did i miss all the clues in the first game?guess I'm just a tad stupid ;D.all monkey island fans should read that article.sorry for posting off topic.
Quote from: veryweirdguy on Mon 04/12/2006 18:07:09
I'm sorry to bring such a unconstructive post to the table, but I had to bring this up regarding the MI2 ending...does anyone have a copy of that thread from aaaaages ago analysing that ending in great detail?
Sylpher had it archived on his website, but it seems to be offline now. http://www.sylpher.com/oldness.html
So let's use the Wayback Machine! http://web.archive.org/web/.../http://www.sylpher.com/OldForum/SecretMi.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20050406074547/http://www.sylpher.com/OldForum/SecretMi.htm)
First, I'm glad to see to my thread's gotten some pretty cool feedback.Ã, ;D
But I'm intrigued by the views on the MI2 ending being disappointing. I mean, it was cool in some ways but frankly disappointing in others. Like it was a nice deviation from the norm, not the typical LucasArts hero ending. But at the same token it did leave you with that "Huh? That was all I got?" feeling.
Still, the disappointment factor of the MI2 ending was NOTHING compared to MI3's ending!! And I haven't played MI4 in ages because it the CDs don't work on my PC, they worked on Macs [interesting.] Eh, well, I stopped using Macs a couple years ago. But even though it wasn't the ending proper; just towards the endgame (shall leave this as a spoiler in case certain readers haven't played all 4 games)
Spoiler
I thought it was a pretty cool plot/entirety twist that it turns out Herman Toothrot was really Grandpa Marley all along! It's soÃ, those daytime TV shows I don't watch!Ã, :D
But I can't quite remember how it ended. I think it was fairly cool...but kinda need to refresh my memory there.
But hmm, I might wanna see that thread that greatly analyzed the MI2 ending, heh heh.
JBurger: Yes, I know that Clue game you're talking about! The gameplay itself was pretty sweet but I'd never played it all the way to the end, I lost that game the 1st time my hard drive died. Is it on Underdogs? Even though you gave me a heads-up that the ending wasn't too great, still, I'd like to see it, haven't played it in a real long time and all.
Wow.Ã, Personally, I loved the MI2 ending, and whenever I hear people talk about being disappointed by it, I always wonder if there are two versions of that ending out there ...
I say this because the whole point to the MI2 ending is that Guybrush isn't just a little boy playing pirate games with his brother ... it was all a spell created by LeChuck to keep Guybrush out of his way.Ã, (This is made pretty clear when, as the Threepwood family walks away, little Chucky's eyes glow spookily red ... and we also see Elaine still waiting for Guybrush to return from the hole on Dinky Island and she literally says "I hope he hasn't fallen under a curse or anything".)
I also enjoyed the gag that the end of our lengthy quest to find Big Whoop was, as the name suggests, a bit of a disappointment (i.e. it turns out to be the name of a carnival - you can see the sign in the background as the family walks away).Ã, Anyway, I thought it was all highly original - a double whammy of two surprise endings that I didn't see coming, and I wasn't disappointed at all!
[Note: I've just read the link from Sovka about Ron Gilbert's possible meaning behind MI1 and MI2, which adds a whole 'nother level to it ...]
I do have to agree with others that the MI3 ending was a huge letdown, mostly because it wasn't really an ending - it was a tiny cutscene animation followed by credits.Ã, (All interviews / articles I've read suggest that the production team simply ran out of time and had to release the game with a makeshift ending.)
I think my personal least favourite ending was the ending to "Simon the Sorceror 2", which was a cliffhanger.Ã, Not that I don't like cliffhangers ... but I'd had such a horrible time playing the game itself, I felt ill at the prospect of having to play through a whole sequel just to conclude the story!
Quote from: EvilboyI've developed a radical new theory about the ending of monkey island 2.
Such a revelation it seemed when I was a fresh-faced 16 year old on the internet! I've not read that post in ages, but it's kind of shocking how terribly 'noobish' I was back then. And that I instantly believed that an unregistered user with the name 'Ron Gilbert' was actually the real guy and not someone having fun... those rose-tinted Ezboard goggles have just vanished into thin air, hehe.
Ahem.
Quote from: Sheepisher on Wed 06/12/2006 11:37:59I say this because the whole point to the MI2 ending is that Guybrush isn't just a little boy playing pirate games with his brother ... it was all a spell created by LeChuck to keep Guybrush out of his way.Ã, (This is made pretty clear when, as the Threepwood family walks away, little Chucky's eyes glow spookily red ... and we also see Elaine still waiting for Guybrush to return from the hole on Dinky Island and she literally says "I hope he hasn't fallen under a curse or anything".)
Well, that is the explaination given at the begining of CMI, which wasn't made by Ron Gilbert thus isn't the true meaning of MI2's ending. I think everyone would say the same if it was someone else than George Lucas who made Star Wars Ep3 or if it wasn't J. K. Rowling that wrote the last Harry Potter book, and this, without having a single note or idea on what Lucas or Rowling wanted for their series to end.
But with the internet, the overall sloppiness of Escape from Monkey Island, and the various theories on what is the true secret of Monkey Island, something happened which splitted the people in 2 crowds:
Those who read the articles and threads about the secret of MI, thought all these subtle details and foreshadowing only visible when you search carefully were pure genius, reject the ideas received from CMI and EMI and who are now waiting for Ron to make his own MI3 game to conclude the series,
And those who read the same threads and articles, thought it was a plain dumb "It was just a dream!" ending, didn't like the direction Ron was taking, didn't want the MI universe to end like a big dream, a kid's fantasy or something not real and who may or may not wait for MI5, depending on their opinions of EMI.
Personally, as much I love CMI and hate EMI, I'm more waiting for Ron's MI3 and the true conclusion to the series than another commercial MI game to ruin the series even more than EMI did. Who know, maybe LucasFan will work on that when whatever project he's working on will be over. ;)
As for Simon the Sorcerer 2, I finished the game 2 weeks ago and I kinda agree that it was disappointing. I liked the twist at the end but it kinda happened too fast, the story has no climax whatsoever, it's not like any other similar adventure game where you know you're at the ending puzzles because you're confronting the final boss or the countdown to total destruction was just activated. Instead, you think the final part of the game is just about to begin but in reality you're watching the ending and that was kinda deceiving.
Quote from: BlueSkirt on Wed 06/12/2006 17:39:35
Quote from: Sheepisher on Wed 06/12/2006 11:37:59I say this because the whole point to the MI2 ending is that Guybrush isn't just a little boy playing pirate games with his brother ... it was all a spell created by LeChuck to keep Guybrush out of his way.Ã, (This is made pretty clear when, as the Threepwood family walks away, little Chucky's eyes glow spookily red ... and we also see Elaine still waiting for Guybrush to return from the hole on Dinky Island and she literally says "I hope he hasn't fallen under a curse or anything".)
Well, that is the explaination given at the begining of CMI, which wasn't made by Ron Gilbert thus isn't the true meaning of MI2's ending. I think everyone would say the same if it was someone else than George Lucas who made Star Wars Ep3 or if it wasn't J. K. Rowling that wrote the last Harry Potter book, and this, without having a single note or idea on what Lucas or Rowling wanted for their series to end.
What are you talking about? That is what happens at the end of MI2. Yes, it is accepted by MI3, but those events DID happen at the end of MI2.
But we do agree on one thing. That we will forever await Ron Gilberts MI3.
Now I just had to play MI2 through... I could've been doing something useful like washing the car, but no, I played MI2... Thanks a lot you guys!!! ;)
(BTW I really like the ending and always has, can't really think of any endings that disappointed me...)
MI2's ending was pretty cool in my opinion: Traditional themes and expected endings/happenings can be great, but sometimes untraditional themes and twists can be even better.
Has anyone played Cirque du Zale? That game was really awesome and had a great twist on tradition...the ending was just a tad disappointing but I think the whole twist on tradition made up for everything.
But Book of Spells' ending was really disappointing! I liked the turn of events and the story, but the ending was so very very disappointing.
I've never played Simon the Sorcerer 2, I must find it somewhere. I really liked the first one. In the game I'm still working on, I want to model the map/travel screen after the one I saw in StS1, only all the locations are present, not showing up as you move along in the game. My game is also going to have both traditional and untraditional approaches to the storyline and gameplay. I'm currently working on making a frame-by-frame AVI for the long intro! :D
But to stay on topic here, another disappointing ending was from a short AGS original, Gaea Fallen. There are 2 different endings and both were pretty disappointing! Still, it was a real nice game, had that nice genuine early 90's-Sierra middle ages mythological feel to it, especially the music.
I've just played through Night of the Hermit.
Most disappointing ending I was ever unfortunate enough to witness on an AGS game. I wasn't too keen on the ending of "He's Gone Historical" much for the same reasons,
Spoiler
in He's Gone Historical the player goes through all that stuff and ends up failing the test. But at least he's had the adventure of his life. Plus, he almost made it, too. In Night of the Hermit Herman just WALKS AWAY???
but Night of the Hermit is the grand winner for me. I mean,
Spoiler
nothing actually happened! You could have quit the game the minute it started, it would be just as effective. Playing "Godot", Mr. Lazarovich? Didn't work.
Also, I've noticed that quite a few games like to re-use the Monkey Island ending joke, the one that has the computer saying at you "Now do something productive like... or... or... or..." etc. But they all fail on one small but vital point.
The people who make this joke in AGS games INVARIABLY use regular speech. Which goes away when you click or press a key. So that you HAD to read it through, because the only other way to quit is to abort the whole thing with Alt-X. Gentlemen, this is like removing the punchline to the joke. Plus, it gets annoying.
Even moreso in Night of the Hermit - couldn't quit, couldn't skip those lines so it'd go faster, and COULDN'T ALT-X (it's an old game). All in all - folks, if you want to use this joke, do it properly.
Rui: Indeed! Well, I think the only person who truly could get away with that joke is Ron Gilbert himself, or unless some other creators tried very hard and managed to pull it off with the same calibre.
I just never got....well, anywhere in Night of the Hermit. I talked to everyone I could and gathered an insane amount of inventory items but just had NO IDEA what to do with them all. Like I could get an idea of what the NPCs wanted me to do but had no idea how to execute it.
I'm still working on my LSL-influenced pièce de resistance, On The Prowl. I think I'll be 40 before I ever finish it: though people keep telling me to try making something simpler. I'll try that route first. Well, I'll be posting some backgrounds in the Critic's Lounge when I get a chance when I finish them all. I want to finish all my art, sprites, dialogs, and music before I start screaming for help with scripting. Still debating if there should be hilarious death scenes or not. I'll probably have only one ending for the game instead of 2+/alternates...
...but I can promise it will not be disappointing! :D The intro and ending will most likely be rather long (by adventure game terms) AVIs.
But I just realized too, one of the other most disappointing endings I've seen...the Castle of Dr. Brain. Though the Dr. Brain series isn't considered an adventure game proper, still, it is in a way because it's another famous VGA game by Sierra and it's tons of puzzles to solve and there some continuity and storyline-- ie, you're trapped in the Castle or in Lost Mind you had to get his brain functioning again. But the ending of CoDB just sucked!! He just shows up in a control room and tells you your score before the credits roll. Booooring.
Torin's Passage has the worst ending by far.
The hero's fallen in love, discovered he's supposed to be king, made contact with worlds that haven't been visited in decades, saved his adoptive parents, and cleared the name of the woman who saved his life but was accused of killing him, saved the world...
...then he goes home and NOTHING HAPPENS! Just "Oh, it's great to be home!" and the credits! WHAT THE HECK!
Also, the end of Mask of Eternity sucked (how does he get back to Daventry? Does he even go back?), but since that whole game sucked it's not surprising.
I never played Torin's Passage, but it just didn't look too exciting. Hmm, now i know it isn't!
And I agree wholeheartedly that Mask of Eternity sucked. Maybe it would've been fine as a stand-alone game. But I could only play up to a certain point because, well, there's only so much fighting these stupid critters and trying not to get killed that I really care to do when the game itself is NOTHING like the King's Quest I knew and loved since I was 5. It should've just been marketed as an action game with adventure elements, like Might and Magic.
And I just hate 3D.
I think the only 3D games I've ever liked are MI4, RedJack: Revenge of the Brethren, and Mordy 2. Otherwise give me 2D rendering any day. And I know, KQIX is in 3D but it looked good in the demo. And it's like that whole world being redone...I can't wait til that project's done.
I felt "the winter rose" could have used a bit more work at the end. I don't know, something. I just felt it needed a bit more work. But the same complaint can be made about many AGS games, even the good ones.
edit
3d to me is how you use it. I think Grim used 3d well, but MI4, though rather pretty, didn't use it effectively. This isn't to do with games, but, in general, I dislike cel-shaded 3d. 3d and 2d are completely different arts, one has natural perspective, and the other has to be crafted. I don't think one should try to 'fake' the other
Quote from: BlueSkirt on Wed 06/12/2006 17:39:35
Well, that is the explaination given at the begining of CMI, which wasn't made by Ron Gilbert thus isn't the true meaning of MI2's ending ...
As Scummbuddy pointed out, I was referring
only to the evidence that we're actually given by Ron Gilbert himself, at the end of MI2, which does seem to push us towards the "voodoo spell cast by LeChuck" interpretation (again, note little Chuckie's spooky eyes and Elaine's direct remark), which is clearly where the writers of CMI got the idea in the first place.Ã, I do agree, however, that there is some ambiguity to that ending and that, as others have said, only Ron Gilbert knows for sure!
I just remembered the ending to the recent AGS game "Duty and Beyond", which I was in two minds about ... not because of the twist reveal that ...
Spoiler
... your entire epic mission to other kingdoms was actually part of some huge reality TV game ...
... but because it turns out there were multiple endings depending on the number of points you earned.Ã, I'm not against multiple endings per se - I think they give a game great replay value and an extra sense of really being able to affect the outcome of the story - but when it's based on a points system, I feel a little bit like I'm being unfairly punished.
I did absolutely everything that was strictly necessary to complete the game, as well as most of the largely unrelated side-quests that were not necessary, and I
still didn't get a full score.Ã, I personally feel that this is unfair to the player - after all, it can be complex and challenging enough to solve all the
necessary puzzles in an adventure game without worrying about puzzles that
aren't necessary.Ã, How is one to tell if something is a genuine puzzle or just a red herring if it's not actually related to the central quest?Ã, And what player
wouldn't skip past a load of unnecessary obstacles if he found a short-cut in his quest?Ã, Moreover, it was only about a quarter of the way through the game that I actually realised these non-essential side quests existed, but by then it was too late because the game doesn't let you travel backwards to a previously completed section.
Yet, after all my exhaustive efforts (and "Duty and Beyond" is a
massive game), I received a "low" ending:
Spoiler
I didn't win the grand prize and the romantic interest spurned my advances.
... as if to say, "sorry - you didn't try hard enough".Ã, I felt doubly disappointed - firstly, that I'd have to play
all the way through again just to attempt a better ending, and secondly, I was racking my brains to think what stone I could possibly have left unturned!Ã, Don't get me wrong - I did enjoy the game immensely, but this specific kind of multiple ending feels like an unfair reward for my efforts as a player.
Sheepisher: I missed the same things in Duty and Beyond too at first. Well, here's some spoilers to ensure you'll get the cool ending! :D
How to win Bess's love:
Spoiler
When you first see Bess in the mansion, use dialogue option #2. When you see hear near the Bakery in London, use the umbrella on her.
Points:
Did you remember to look at ALL the blue cups you found in every realm? And this one's a doozy, you also have to just LOOK at the open window in the mansion when you're outside by the graves. And LOOK at the treasure chest when you're undersea, remember to look at it BEFORE you fill it!
Rescuing Stan:
Spoiler
That pig standing by the Chief's hut when you first get teleported to the Medieval Realm is Stan. Did you read all the books in the wizard's library? Before you give the man in the pub his harp back after you put the unicorn hair in it, use it on the pig to restore Stan to his true form. Now it should be Stan that you're rescuing from the Lamb St shop instead of the stranger.
Points I Missed At First:
When you're looking at the books in the study later, it says "Feeding Dolphins In Icy Water". It's a clue. Did you catch the 2nd fish in the underwater realm? When you put all the gems in the holes towards the endgame and you grab the tickets outside, use that fish on the water.
Let me reassure you, the ending is certainly not disappionting once you use these spoilers and gotten all the points! ;D
Quote from: m0ds on Mon 04/12/2006 19:07:15
The Dig
Agreed. The Dig had the worst payoff for the most amount of effort I've ever put into a game.
Quote from: DGMacphee on Sat 09/12/2006 03:17:49
Quote from: m0ds on Mon 04/12/2006 19:07:15
The Dig
Agreed. The Dig had the worst payoff for the most amount of effort I've ever put into a game.
Seconded. I mean, thirded. I loved The Dig, and I remember being thrilled by...
Spoiler
...the threat that the main character risked losing his mind in the last stage of the game. When the silly looking alien appeared and Brink was returned to normal I thought that this was me losing my mind, and seeing what I wanted to see. I was very disappointed to realise that it was really the game's ending.
QuoteWhat are you talking about? That is what happens at the end of MI2. Yes, it is accepted by MI3, but those events DID happen at the end of MI2.
But we do agree on one thing. That we will forever await Ron Gilberts MI3.
QuoteAs Scummbuddy pointed out, I was referring only to the evidence that we're actually given by Ron Gilbert himself, at the end of MI2, which does seem to push us towards the "voodoo spell cast by LeChuck" interpretation (again, note little Chuckie's spooky eyes and Elaine's direct remark), which is clearly where the writers of CMI got the idea in the first place. I do agree, however, that there is some ambiguity to that ending and that, as others have said, only Ron Gilbert knows for sure!
Yes, now that you refresh my memory, it's true that MI2's ending could involve a curse. But MI2's ending is simply not explaining enough and everyone's interpretation on the ending remain an interpretation amongs any other interpretations until we see Ron's MI3. Surface hints like the glowing eyes and Elaine's closing line seem to foreshadow a curse from LeChuck, subtle hints, like the grog machine, the e-ticket, the tunnels, the constant circus and festivals everywhere and Guybrush's parents waiting so long for their kid to show up again they literally died for waiting too long in the waiting room seem to foreshadow a little Guybrush imagining all this.
Ron's MI3 would surely have involved both, but on what level is what we have no idea about. The curse idea could easily be the meaning of MI2's ending and Big Whoop being something created by LeChuck to trap Guybrush, like they did in CMI.
It could also foreshadow the problems Guybrush would face in Ron's MI3, by this I mean that MI2 ends nicely, just like MI1 ended (or should I say MI3 begins nicely, just like MI2 began), and in MI3, Guybrush is on to another adventure, or bragging at his friends on how he found the treasure of Big Whoop and defeated LeChuck again until he discovers about LeChuck's curse and the curse become the problem to be solved in MI3.
Or it could be the real secret of Monkey Island, as if one twist ending wasn't enough. ;) And this also apply for the child's imagination idea, it could be the explaination for MI2's ending, or the real secret of MI. We know the sequel would involve both, but we don't know what dosage, for each ideas, Ron would have used for MI3. Since the surface hints are more visible than the subtle ones, the hints seems to point toward the curse being the explaination of MI2's ending or a foreshadow of the problems Guybrush would face in MI3, and the child's imagination being the great revelation at the end of the game. But since Ron made no sequel, we can't know for sure.
Ron's MI3 obviously qualified for the old saying that say the most beautiful things often have the worst fates. :(
We can't know for sure, ayuh. IMHO, however, the "it's all a child's dream and LeChuck really is the brother and therefore a regular, normal kid" is pretty much disproven by - as has been pointed out many times over - his eyes glowing, and Elaine's last appearance. And I'm not even talking about character logic or anything like that - I'm talking about narrative. That's the classic "The-bad-guy-just-pulled-one-over-the-good-guy's-head-and-the-good-guy-didn't-even-notice" scenario. You get Guybrush as a kid, you see him behave as a kid, you see the parents, you see the brother, and just when you're going "What the F--- is going on here?!" you see a little hint, in this case Chuckie's eyes, telling you "No, you're not crazy, it's just that I - the bad guy - finally got Guybrush where he wanted, bwahahaha, etc et all".
Of course, it could be this and it could be that and I'm sure there are a million explanations, but we can't forget one very simple thing - the way stories work. It'd have to be a pretty damn unorthodox and advanced and revolutionary plotline to follow up on the "all the pirates stuff was just a dream" ending after that very simple fact - Chuckie's eyes glowed supernaturally, and he chuckled at the player as though he were saying "Ahaha, I win!". It's a classical twist-of-a-twist, that ends up putting things back the way they were (except Guybrush is now in a hell of a mess and he doesn't even know it). And as fun and interesting and -in its own way- revolutionary MI was, especially in game mechanics and puzzle design, the story it's presented so far (MI1 and 2) certainly had nothing that sophisticated in it, nothing that could possibly hint at such a thing coming later.
Mind you, I'm not saying stories have to be predictable in their structure or anything. Especially nowadays, many things are allowed, and experimentation is growing. But 2+2=4, and 2*2 is ALSO 4, and 6-2 is ALSO 4... but in the end, it's a logical equation that follows certain rules. Similarly, there's a way that stories work, and to try and see beyond that can work, sometimes... but not when there's such a clear indicator of a classic scenario. No twist is really possible at this point - Chuckie the kid is a supernatural being. Period. Thus we can assume he's still LeChuck.
It's really fun trying out for alternative meanings, but in the end there's things we can't overlook.
Yeah, and when the it-was-just-a-dream-ending was true, Monkey Island 3a would be boring as hell!
But back to the actual topic:
One ending disappointing me is the end of Toonstruck.
Has anybody else finished it?
I don't want to give away the ending now, but man, I didn't really like it.
Oh, and Rui: I have a proper version of this joke in my game, if it will ever get finished.
And Dragonrose: You are absolutely right! I had the same feeling with Torin's Passage!
Heh, why not? I'm curious now. I can understand that it may look like a defeat, or a cliffhanger, but paradoxically it didn't feel like either, at least for me...
Well, for starters:
I had the feeling, all the loose end get tied up in a rather cheap way.
I mean, can you explain me why Flux turned back to normal, when Drew shot him with the evilator (or whatever this thing is called in english)?
Furthermore, I don't know, you didn't really accomplish anything.
Spoiler
You try to get back home all the game long.
Finally there, you fail having a creative idea the boss likes.
A little later, you learn that Fluffy and Count what's-his-name are still alive and you get sucked back into the cartoon world.
Why flux turned normal? Well, it makes sense, doesn't it? Hit him with the cutifier and he became sickeningly cute; hit him with the malevolator and he became normal, cancelling the cutifier. If you malevolated him again, he'd become evil.
As for the rest, I disagree that you didn't accomplish anything - and I disagree because I just played Night of the Hermit. Until then I had no idea of what it was like not to accomplish anything.
Spoiler
You tried to get back home, and you succeeded. You had a great idea for a new show. Unfortunately, the boss didn't like it. Even more unfortunately, the injection from Nefarious will put you back into toonland. But Drew isn't unhappy - he's even smiling and laughing a bit. Nothing's changed? It has. Drew has given his best shot at pleasing the people in this world. No one gave a damn about his best. He went back to a land where he'll probably be useful and happy.
Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sat 09/12/2006 23:51:39
Why flux turned normal? Well, it makes sense, doesn't it? Hit him with the cutifier and he became sickeningly cute; hit him with the malevolator and he became normal, cancelling the cutifier. If you malevolated him again, he'd become evil.
Well, I guess, it would make sense on some level, but why doesn't malevolating any other cute toon turn them into a crazy toon?
I mean yes, those toons have always been cute.
But why would it make a difference?
I think this cancelling out thing is just a cop-out.
Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sat 09/12/2006 23:51:39Spoiler
You tried to get back home, and you succeeded.
Spoiler
Yeah, for five minutes! Great succes!
However, he's probably happier in the toonworld but I think, that's a happy end not quite related to the plot.
Well, that's my opinion.
If have another one, fine.
BUT YOUR OPINION IS WRONG! HAHAHAHA! ;)
Yeah, those toons have always been cute, but when you start modifying it you play upon their natural essence.
Think of it like every toon starting of with 0. The cutifier adds +10 to their cuteness. The malevolator adds -10. And they have a limit of +10 or -10 either way. Always seemed logic to me.
Quotethink, that's a happy end not quite related to the plot.
QuoteYOUR OPINION IS WRONG!
Well, sure, if you want to disavow the possibility of actual story development it can be quite an unacceptable ending. I suppose you prefer predictable ones?
Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sun 10/12/2006 00:17:27
Yeah, those toons have always been cute, but when you start modifying it you play upon their natural essence.
Think of it like every toon starting of with 0. The cutifier adds +10 to their cuteness. The malevolator adds -10. And they have a limit of +10 or -10 either way. Always seemed logic to me.
Alright, Dr. RPG...
That would mean, they are cute despite having a 0 in cuteness.
And now let's cut this nonsense!
Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sun 10/12/2006 00:17:27
Quotethink, that's a happy end not quite related to the plot.
QuoteYOUR OPINION IS WRONG!
Well, sure, if you want to disavow the possibility of actual story development it can be quite an unacceptable ending. I suppose you prefer predictable ones?
No, I prefer
good ones.
I don't see how another ending would disawov the possibility of actual story development.
I just want a proper ending.
According to Aristotoles is an end that which itself naturally follows some other thing, either by necessity, or as a rule, but has nothing following it.
And I don't know why you inserted my "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG!" quote.
Don't you get irony?
QuoteThat would mean, they are cute despite having a 0 in cuteness.
That was an analogy. Cutifying and malevolating is a variable applied upon a "normal" state. I would have thought that was simple enough. The fact that the normal state of Cutopians is already "cute" is beside the point. They get cuter, or they get evil.
And end which follows some natural thing? I see nothing in that ending that is not natural, I see a perfectly logical course of events. And the story itself ends - the story of how Drew wanted so desperatly to go back home... and upon going back home a changed man, found out he much preferred the new place he went to. A place where he can actually make a difference.
I inserted your quote not because I don't understand irony, but because it seemed like in this context you were trying to humoursly conceal (or reveal) the fact that you're not ready to be swayed by any argument there can be. The way you took my numerical analogy of the cutifying/malevolating process seems to confirm that. I'm all for different opinions, but if you're that closed to argumentation, then pershaps this should stop here.
I can be swayed by any argument there can be.
I just wanted to state that both of us has different points of view.
But you just had to continue this discussion.
Wich obviously shows, that you are the stubborn one here.
The reason I took your analogy this way is, that it just doesn't make any sense.
You can't just say cuteness of 0 is the same as cuteness +10 if the cuteness has always been 0.
And now cut the crap.
I would rather go over to another ending:
The ending of Simon the Sorcerer 3D.
It's not a bad ending.
It has, unlike StS2, a climax at the end.
I never finished StS2, though, so i can't give any opinion about that.
However, StS3D does have one of those sudden cliffhanger endings.
When will Simon's odysse finally end?!?
There is just cliffhanger after cliffhanger and the story gets crazier and crazier, and you wonder where the creators are going.
Well, I hope part 4 will reveal one thing or another.
QuoteBut you just had to continue this discussion.
Wich obviously shows, that you are the stubborn one here.
Excuse me for trying to actually understand what your point of view was and, failing to understand, conversing about it, confronting you with my opinion and actually expecting a constructive reply that would make me understand your point. Trust me, I won't make that mistake again.
This is rather off-topic now, as opposed to the previous posts (in which we discussed Toontruck's ending in an attempt to find out what made it disappointing for some and not quite so for others, always an interesting exercise), but no one can surely blame me for replying directly to a post that has insulted me and my "crap".
I'm sorry, but I admited that we all have our own opinion and you blamed me to be "not ready to be swayed by any argument there can be".
I don't react very friendly to this kind of talk.
And you conversated about my point in a quite disrespecting way.
Besides, I just wanted to contribute one of my disappointing endings.
And then you asked me, why I think, it's disappointed.
Then you questioned my all my points.
Wich was the point I tried to explain that it's just my opionion and you don't have to share it.
But you wouldn't let go.
(You don't seem to be ready to be swayed by arguments.)
Well, in a nutshell: I got tired of this dull conversation so I decided to end it.
However, I'm off to bed.
I've been forgetting to say this - when I finished Beyond Good and Evil, I almost loved the ending. Almost.
Spoiler
After the whole thing was done, I would really have liked to see, even if just briefly, Hillys now in peace, or something, like in American McGee's Alice when you get a final glance at a healthy Wonderland. I wanted to take a sneak peek at maybe children playing in a reconstructed lighthouse. Ah well, it's just what I'd have wanted to see, not having seen it didn't really take away from the ending. I just felt... well, disappointed is indeed the right word.
Oh, and the very last scene, where the the pig was shown to develop a Domz claw? I found that just a bit too over the top. The story was already concluded, after all, and it felt like a "Hey, let's put it in in case we ever make a sequel!" moment.
Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sat 09/12/2006 22:16:19
We can't know for sure, ayuh. IMHO, however, the "it's all a child's dream and LeChuck really is the brother and therefore a regular, normal kid" is pretty much disproven by - as has been pointed out many times over - his eyes glowing, and Elaine's last appearance. And I'm not even talking about character logic or anything like that - I'm talking about narrative. That's the classic "The-bad-guy-just-pulled-one-over-the-good-guy's-head-and-the-good-guy-didn't-even-notice" scenario. You get Guybrush as a kid, you see him behave as a kid, you see the parents, you see the brother, and just when you're going "What the F--- is going on here?!" you see a little hint, in this case Chuckie's eyes, telling you "No, you're not crazy, it's just that I - the bad guy - finally got Guybrush where he wanted, bwahahaha, etc et all".
Of course, it could be this and it could be that and I'm sure there are a million explanations, but we can't forget one very simple thing - the way stories work. It'd have to be a pretty damn unorthodox and advanced and revolutionary plotline to follow up on the "all the pirates stuff was just a dream" ending after that very simple fact - Chuckie's eyes glowed supernaturally, and he chuckled at the player as though he were saying "Ahaha, I win!". It's a classical twist-of-a-twist, that ends up putting things back the way they were (except Guybrush is now in a hell of a mess and he doesn't even know it). And as fun and interesting and -in its own way- revolutionary MI was, especially in game mechanics and puzzle design, the story it's presented so far (MI1 and 2) certainly had nothing that sophisticated in it, nothing that could possibly hint at such a thing coming later.
Mind you, I'm not saying stories have to be predictable in their structure or anything. Especially nowadays, many things are allowed, and experimentation is growing. But 2+2=4, and 2*2 is ALSO 4, and 6-2 is ALSO 4... but in the end, it's a logical equation that follows certain rules. Similarly, there's a way that stories work, and to try and see beyond that can work, sometimes... but not when there's such a clear indicator of a classic scenario. No twist is really possible at this point - Chuckie the kid is a supernatural being. Period. Thus we can assume he's still LeChuck.
It's really fun trying out for alternative meanings, but in the end there's things we can't overlook.
The ambiguous ending is just as strong a storytelling pattern as the double twist ending. The evidence you cite is not conclusive, not "a logical equation that follows certain rules".
Besides, consider that even if it was all in Guybrush's imagination, that doesn't mean it's not real (or at least as real as the "reality" he leaves it for).
QuoteThe ambiguous ending is just as strong a storytelling pattern as the double twist ending.
Ayuh, though an ambiguous ending often leaves enough evidence that fully supports both or more interpretations. It doesn't often allow for loose ends, and everyone seems to agree that Chuckie's eyes glowing is a major loose end. And ayuh, I'm sure it's not conclusive or real evidence. It's just what makes sense to me. Reading over my post it does sound a lot like I'm being a bit too "The truth is how I see it and nothing else". It's just my opinion, and I got a bit excited in laying it out because, like everyone else, there's a reason why I have that opinion and I wanted to get it out in the open.
Doesn't Ron Gilbert has an email adress? Someone pester him until he gives in or start an online petition. ;D
He has a blog (http://www.grumpygamer.com/), and don't worry, there's enough people over there that are begging him to continue. :)
But seriously I doubt more people begging him is what he's looking for. If I were him, I'd probably be waiting for a bunch of talented people interested to work on an amateur MI3, because at this rate, it's pretty obvious that he'll bring the secret of Monkey Island in his grave before LucasArts give up on the franchise, and even if they did, he would have to find a work around CMI and EMI, because a commercial MI3 would probably just please the crowd that were unsatisfied with them and possibly confuse the people if it excluded CMI and EMI.
I've always chosen to view the mi 2 ending as a dream that occurs from the point you break the oar and fall from the tree (seeing your parents dance) onward. To me, everything from that point onward seems to tie into a dream state. The alternative is just to be greatly annoyed as I much prefer the idea that you're a real pirate to being a dumb kid imagining everything.
But if that's true, how come you go to LeChuck castle? The character doesn't know much about it, barley even that exists, yet you go to the same places seen in the cutscenes? Cutscenes that can be seen before you bump your skull? On the plus side, I always felt MI2 to be very cinematic, and well done, and very funny.One of may fave parts is
Spoiler
when you first leave the bar kitchen through the window, and you do a flip and look all pleased with your self, then look foolish
Quote from: BlueSkirt on Tue 12/12/2006 11:18:26
he would have to find a work around CMI and EMI,
Nah, just "relaunch" the series and ignore them. Like Superman Returns ignores everything after Superman 2, and Batman Begins basically ignores every other Batman movie. :)
I'm a big fan of long cutscenes and big lengthy cinematic endings - the longer the better. I hate short ending that leave you high and dry.
--Snake
Quote from: Snake on Wed 13/12/2006 15:18:42
I'm a big fan of long cutscenes and big lengthy cinematic endings - the longer the better. I hate short ending that leave you high and dry.
I agree wholeheartedly. Cutscenes and big endings are hard to work on but they are SO worth it in the long run.
And as for real true MI3...who knows. Wasn't there also supposed to be a real true Space Quest 7 too?
Let's explain why Toonstruck's ending was so crap then. http://www.lauraj.net/portfolio/GameArt/Toonstruck/Toonstruck.htm
For clicking-impaired, it was originally supposed to be twice as long but was then cut to half. There was supposed to be a sequel, which was obviously never finished.
Both Broken Sword and The Smoking Mirror had pretty disappointing endings; no denouement. You get a scene showing the world being saved, but not a glimpse of the consequences - no "breather" scene, no clever banter, nothing. It's like making a game version of Raiders of the Lost Ark, and ending EXACTLY when the villains get killed. In spite of their high production values, their generally solid dialogue, and their general flair, Broken Sword and The Smoking Mirror both desperately needed a Warehouse Scene.
Quote from: sovka on Tue 05/12/2006 19:04:26
Sylpher had it archived on his website, but it seems to be offline now. http://www.sylpher.com/oldness.html
So let's use the Wayback Machine! http://web.archive.org/web/.../http://www.sylpher.com/OldForum/SecretMi.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20050406074547/http://www.sylpher.com/OldForum/SecretMi.htm)
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. http://www.sylpher.com/oldness.html I reuploaded them. As well, a bonus! The long puzzle thread.. http://www.sylpher.com/OldForum/Puzzle.htm
Edit:
For any of you interested in what us oldbies were like when we were younger then these threads are great. I am right there with DS going.. Gah! What a silly newbie I look like.