The trouble with trying to find good help. -an observation.

[Trisk]

I'm sure that any veteran AGS developer has felt what I'm feeling right now...is it even possible to get good help on a game project? It always starts the same way:

1) You find someone who is really talented in the art of what you need. They are interested in your project and agree to help you.

2) You share with them sensitive game materials including story elements and art materials. You give them the work you need done.

3) Over several weeks they produce some tantalizing bits of great stuff. You are excited, they seem to be having fun.

4) Something happens. They either get really sick, or move, or some such thing which interrupts their work. This is bad because they get out of the groove of the game for a while.

5) The crisis which interrupted them passes, but for some reason you now notice that they aren't producing much, if anything for your game. You begin to worry, but hope that their explanations of, "I'm really busy with this and that" are true and they will return to your game soon. In reality, they are out of the groove and are sick of working on your project.

6) Days stretch into weeks and you begin to apply pressure because you are stalled waiting on materials you need from them. They get defensive, sighting "hectic life right now" or "just unbelievably busy at the moment" and you get a sinking feeling in your stomach. You now know deep down that you aren't going to get any more from this person, and all the time and energy you spent on them is going to come up for naught. Even worse, you've shared game specific story elements/art/code with them, and now have the extra worry that they may share it with others for "revenge" when you inevitably have to kick them off the team.


It is a cycle I've repeated many times in both Prodigal, and now Prodigal 2. I know I'm not alone, as Himalaya talked about the difficulty of finding a good, dedicated 3D modeler for Al Emmo. (I'm lacking a 3D modeler as well.)

In Prodigal it was no big deal for me. I realized I wasn't paying anybody anything, and it can be hard to share someone else's vision and enthusiasm for a project that is not your own. I figured "easy come, easy go."

It is harder for me in Prodigal 2 because I am actually PAYING for these services and still have had no luck with the people I hire. I find it comical at the same time that I find it frustrating and demoralizing. It's ALWAYS been the same M.O. for me exactly as described above. You get to feeling like, "what kind of idiot do these people take me for, anyway?"

So, now I'm back to trolling 3D modeling websites to try and find someone interested in helping on an indie project...I wonder if indie film makers have to deal with this as well?

Anybody out there had similar experiences? I could use some commiseration right now, as I'm feeling pretty demoralized. 

[James--]

Yeah, I had exactly the same problem... my game has been through 3 background artists that way.

So I taught myself how to create background art, character art and music 

In my opinion those are the only elements of a game that really need continuity - the people doing the other parts (cel-shaded 3D modelling, puzzle design, dialogue writing) are happy helping out anyway and have been with the project a long time (probably because it's less demanding than art or music), but if they did decide to quit their work could be continued from where they left off by someone else.

[auriond]

I had similar experiences, except that my helpers simply told me that they could not help anymore. After that others agreed or offered to help, but they would inevitably forget. I didn't push them, because after all - what do you expect for free?

But if you're paying your helpers, you do have a right to expect them to do something. And I find it odd that they don't carry through, because who wants to invest time in starting something and then later give up on it without getting the pay that they were promised?

In the end, I think paid or not, the helpers have to share your vision. They have to be almost as obsessed as you. Mine were, until their crisis, so I am always grateful to them for their level of support.

[Trisk]

Yeah, I agree with you totally Auriond, the need to share your vision for the project is vital...but that can be hard to do when the guy helping is in another state or even country! The crisis that causes the leaving is just hard to accept when the person is uncommonly talented and you HATE like everything to loose them.

Even though I'm paying, it probably isn't what the modeling is worth as I'm paying out of my own pocket, so ultimately it does boil down to the person having to have a passion for doing it...and that is harrrrd to instill.

And James, I hear you on that. I do as much of the game myself as I POSSIBLY can for that reason. But I just don't want to take the months and months required to learn how to render and animate 3D models. Even with my background in rendering 3D geometry...organic things like creatures are a completely different art form.

[ThreeOhFour]

I know the issue you are discussing.

A while ago, I contacted Paolo and said "Hey, you do scripting, I do graphics, let's make a game"

Things went well for a month or so, insert family crisis on my behalf, and I completely lost motivation to work on the game. I realised this after a while - perhaps two months? - and then decided to wipe the slate clean and start again.

Paolo and I then made a game in three weeks.

I think the big key here is that projects tend to get stale after the initial excitement stage. You've been porducing the same style of graphics for a month and it just drags your inspiration levels down.

Maybe it was silly of me to scrap the work that Paolo and I had done, but I think if I had tried to make myself persevere with the project, it would have been a year or two to make a game that didn't justify the development time.

Recently I've found that I've been experiencing a similar lack of motivation with our current project, so I've taken the plunge and tried to build a small game in just a week. Little projects like these help boost my motivation no end, so after trying this I will hopefully know whether my theory is successful or not.

Good luck finding yourself an artist, by the way.

[mouthuvmine]

I'm currently doing sprites, and maybe backgrounds as well, for a game with MRollins, and I'm almost more excited about it than getting my own game done. I think the key factor is that I was looking for the oppertunity, and had been for a few weeks, and I must have read everything on the help wanted thread, as far back as june 07. I made sure that the game I offered to help with was a game I was excited about playing. And it's so much more rewarding. It seems like everytime I send him some art, he sends me an updated demo, or a new scene. I think him seeing my progress, and the other way around as well, really maintains motivation.

As far as the problem with (if I'm talking about YOU here, apologies) halfassed team members...maybe it'd help to mention being replaced on the team. Treat it like a job. You're the boss. If I was getting lazy on the project I'm on, and I was informed that I'd be replaced due only to my laziness, it'd put something of a fire uder my ass. Which can be a good thing. You'd just have to decide whether you were going to bring it up, or be a jerk.

Then again, if someone's being paid, that's different altogether. You're getting PAID TO MAKE COOL PICTURES ON YOUR COMPUTER. It's a scaled down version of everyone here's dream. Man up. Get to work.

[radiowaves]

Right now I have it somehow other way around... I am the graphics artist who responded to help request... I do all the graphics but I begin to think that I need to do everything.. What do you do when its an interesting project and you have already put really big amount of effort in it and the other side is just... doing nothing, doesn't even show much interest...
Anyway, I am getting sick of this already...

Team members should motivate each other, not ignore or harass.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

This is why I typically do all the work on my games alone.  Finding trustworthy and talented people is difficult, especially when no money is involved.

[m0ds]

The trouble with finding good help lies within lacking the necessary skill in the first place  :'(

[Stupot]

I think the problem is not necessarily the helpers.
A lot of us face the same thing when we try to go solo... things go well for a whle, everything seems to be coming along nicely, then the project loses steam and it becomes more of a chore.  The art is in trying to stop it from feeling like work.  I should imagine the same thing happens with team efforts.  It's not the fault of the help; it's just what happens.

[Dave Gilbert]

This is a common problem, and one I could rant about easily if I let myself.  My only advise is to keep trying.  Now that you can recognize the signs of flaking out, you can deal with them faster.  Eventually, you'll find people that are loyal.  I burnt through about 10-15 artists before I ended up with a nice core group of people.  I'd also suggest searching away from the AGS community.  The folks here are mostly hobbyists, so hardcore loyalty is hard to find here.  Also, if you can pay a little bit by-the-job (i.e., per background or animation or whatever) it gives you a little bit more clout.

[Akatosh]

Strangely, this thing happened for Me Go Cannibal Jungle. The character art took about 5 hours of work... spread over 20 days. Sorry, FSi. 

[Nikolas]

Well.

It does depend on the "how much" factor I'm afraid.

For example. I have a family. Anyone who can't support 1/2 the budget I need for the time of development (which is around a year for indie games, so we are looking at A LOT OF MONEY), they shouldn't expect a full time from me! It's basic stuff. I will have to work elsewhere to bring money in the family. And everyone is the same at this.

Now being slow is one thing. I consider myself slow at work. Not that I can't do fater, but I... take my time. I have many different projects at hand and I prioritise at need and at circumstance. Diamonds in the Rough is VERY CLOSE to release so I didn't do much else for the past few weeks apart from working for that game. Anything else I'm working on has to wait for now.

But dissappearing is a different thing!

I don't know how much money we're talking about, but I would never expect a professional to simply dissappear, or bail out! And even if you do get your money back the loss of time and valuable resources means huge trouble (imagine having 40% of the art done and then the artists leaves, so you have to find someone else to redo it to their style, or someone who matches the style of the lost artist). It's awful in all truth. The only thing that I can assume is that the money could be "so little" (although anyone should think for themselves and take the job, after thinking on the how much money there is factor, or how hard work is vs how much money), that they wouldn't care. If someone was to offer me (for example) $100 for some audio work, although my morality wouldn't allow me to leave, still I imagine that it would be little trouble if I really left. $100 is "such a small" amount that he could find someone else very fast. If the amount is $3000 however it IS a different issue, never mind $10,000 or more...

Now some ideas.

Why would anyone stay to the game 'till the end?
a. For credits. The more famous the game the better projection of themselves. Who wouldn't like to be onboard Dave now? Not because of the money, but because he is... FAMOUS! (YAY!)
b. For money. Pay every... 3 months, or 6 months (which makes sense as well), or pay per... track/BG/animation.
c. For a... bonus. "If the game breaks the 5,000 product sales breakthrough the artist will receive x amount of $"
d. for %. For every product sold, the artist gets x% from the clear profit, blah blah...
e. The next game. If the game goes well, there will be a next game, so more revenue from the same person. Be nice to your employer to hire you again. Dave has Thomas again and they are both happy! Had Thomas left, he would be out of the playfirst deal. etc (Thomas Regin, the amazing composer behind the Blackwell Unbound game!)

Some ideas at least...

Good luck cause I WANT to play your game Trisk!

[vertigoaddict]

Ah...you guys are going to hate me...

I've been so busy with school life and so stressed out to the point where I'm threatened to be kicked out (long story). Anyway, I've been so busy, I haven't progressed on Biljunus's project and it's been months almost a year in fact.

I send an apology PM now and again, He's been so patient (and extremely nice).

That's it! Tonight, I'm going to ditch my homework and do those backgrounds! or maybe ditch it in march cause I have this AS course thing...no, but in march I have to catch up with my drama course work and my art is failing, there's my personal statement to do...a...aand...AARRRGH!

[Trisk]

Yeah, luckily I hadn't paid all at once, I paid him %25, and probably got about that much of what he was supposed to make out of him, so I didn't loose my shirt on it. It's a bigger pain because he was really really good and replacing him might be hard. Mari has already offered to take a look at what I need, so that's good.

Dave Gilbert - yeah, I've had it happen often enough before that I recognized all the warning signs pretty quickly, put the screws in, got the "I have a life" speech out of him and sent him on his way. That at least helps keep it from dragging on for months while you agonize over it. I was able to move on quickly and, I hope, get somebody else...Also, yeah I agree with looking other places too. I have a friend who works for Lucasarts, and he was able to point me to some good websites for 3D artists where he used to hang out. He said they are all good spots to find artists willing to work...

Nikolas - I'm definitely going to go for "X amount of dollars per finished model" as the way to pay from now on. Payment over time or %payment just gets too complicated to figure out if someone does leave.

Vertigoaddict - I really don't mind if someone leaves because they are legitimately too busy...with this guy that quit on me though...he didn't even have a JOB. He was a single guy that just sat around on his butt all day and played Mythos. For him to claim he was too busy was a complete and utter joke...but even that wouldn't have mattered so much if he hadn't been so danged GOOD at it. I had hoped to get more out of him.

Thanks everyone else for your words. It's nice to know I'm not alone in running into this. Makes it easier to bare if I know I'm not alone and somebody else was able to work through it, so I can TOO!

Ben

[alkis21]

Interesting thread.

The arguments presented here are the exact reason I didn't want to team up with anyone during the making of Other Worlds. I couldn't trust a stranger to remain devoted to something he wasn't getting paid for, and I couldn't trust myself to do the same either.

As DITR is a professional game, I had to work with professionals. We signed contracts and NDAs, but let's face it, if an artist from Uruguay disappears on you there is little you can do, no matter how many signed papers you have. My way of dealing with this was to hire people who at least looked trustworthy, as in they had a professional web site and had worked on actual projects before. Then I tried to be as punctual with my payments and other responsibilities as possible - you know, if you want people to act like pros, you have to treat them as such. I was very lucky with this project as almost everyone I worked with delivered everything they had promised, apart from one actress whom I had to let go. I also found that the possibility of a long term cooperation is something that makes people try their best; they know that if you are satisfied with their services, you will hire them for future projects as well.