I know this topic has been discussed so much that it has reached the point of irrelevance, but I'd still like to voice my opinion and hear the opinion of others. I myself feel that it is impossible for a video game to be art because its sole purpose, by definition, is to provide enjoyment for the consumer. Games are products created with commercial intent, and anyone suggesting otherwise, especially for mainstream releases by the likes of Bioware or TellTale, are wrong.
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/20618461.jpg)
You say video games are, by definition, solely made for commercial reasons. That's not true. There are a lot of free games out there (*gasp* AGS games for example). Those clearly are video games made without commercial intent. The rest of your argument is based on this fallacy.
So then films can't be art. They're generally made with commercial intent for the enjoyment of the viewer.
So then most paintings can't be art, usually they are commissioned by someone for their enjoyment. (Seriously, most great paintings were actually commissioned by people to make a place look nice)
This line of thought leads every single non-guerilla work of art (and even including them, since you discount freeware games!) to not actually be art, by virtue of the artist having to eat to survive.
Well done. You've now proven that all art is in fact, not art.
So what?
Quote from: Janos Ekdahl on Fri 01/02/2013 15:13:03
I know this topic has been discussed so much that it has reached the point of irrelevance, but I'd still like to voice my opinion
Yeah, that's gonna work :P
I feel that (all of the) commercial indie (ags) games are usually a nice mix between (1)providing enjoyment for the consumer for (2) a very reasonable price.
Quote from: Janos Ekdahl on Fri 01/02/2013 15:13:03
I know this topic has been discussed so much that it has reached the point of irrelevance, but I'd still like to voice my opinion and hear the opinion of others.
That's what the forum's for.
Quote from: Janos Ekdahl on Fri 01/02/2013 15:13:03
I myself feel that it is impossible for a video game to be art
Play:
- The Cat Lady,
- The Void (aka Tension),
- Magritte
Quote from: Janos Ekdahl on Fri 01/02/2013 15:13:03
because its sole purpose, by definition, is to provide enjoyment for the consumer.
So - by your definition art's purpose is to bring sorrow and misery to anybody who comes in contact with it?
Quote from: Janos Ekdahl on Fri 01/02/2013 15:13:03
Games are products created with commercial intent, and anyone suggesting otherwise, especially for mainstream releases by the likes of Bioware or TellTale, are wrong.
So - by your definition art becomes no-art when its creator decides to sell it?
The definition of 'art' is blurry, always has been, regardless of the medium, and that is no different for video games. Video games are like any other medium ever. Some are purely for entertainment, some are just a person's hobby, some are technical masterpeices, some are more deliberately arty than others. Some are collectible, some are reproduced by the hundreds of thousands, some are crap, some are good. Film, music, literature, manga, paintings, carpentry, whatever; if you consider these as art, then you can't not consider games as art.
I personally don't think you can judge a whole medium on it's 'artiness'. Better to judge each individual token of all media. some games are certainly art, some less so.
Quote from: Janos Ekdahl on Fri 01/02/2013 15:13:03
I myself feel that it is impossible for a video game to be art because its sole purpose, by definition, is to provide enjoyment for the consumer.
Then, in conclusion, any game that I do not enjoy becomes art! Duke Nukem Forever just lucked out! (laugh)
No, seriously, I think a game can be art. Art is entertainment, enrichtment, [can even become] culture. Games can be all of that too. But it's probably one of the most subjective topics I know, and each one to his own mind.
I think the problem with this discussion is the use of 'art' to mean 'good art'. Art is a broad term encompassing all kinds of cultural products. I can't see how you could define art in a way which didn't group video games, graffiti and soap opera along with literature, painting and actual opera.
But I enjoy making art. Oh no, does this mean that all the pictures and paintings I've made are not art?
Would it make you feel better if people said that video games could be a work of art?
"Understanding Comics" (an analysis of how comic book are an art form, and how they work) has a pretty nice take: Humans strife to survive and to reproduce. That's ALL we really need to do as a species. So everything that is NOT directly necessary to survive and make more humans is a form of creative leisure:
[imgzoom]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_AJRSaUkuKwM/TDKl0oy2mzI/AAAAAAAAAXE/SEWoToQHUC8/s1600/art.jpg[/imgzoom]
My definition of art is: a medium to encompass a feeling or memory (an idea) of the author is such way it can recreate (or approximate) this with the viewer.
Is a game a viable medium as regard to my definition: yes, very much.
There are games out there that are pretty 'arty' (heck I made one (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/site/games/game/1370/) once) and value this relationship more than other games that might be more focussed on entertainment. Although I think art itself can be pretty entertaining so the whole discussion is pointless :D.
Quote from: Janos Ekdahl on Fri 01/02/2013 15:13:03
it is impossible for a video game to be art
Awesome! Until now my lack of artistic skills has been my biggest hindrance in game design. But since you've convinced me that video games are not art, then it follows logically that one does not require any artistic skills whatsoever to create one. I am liberated! Begone self-conscious sense of doubt, and look out world! Bother me not with your blithe feedback about JPEG artifacts and eye-bleeding palette choices: you would simply be commenting on a component of game design that does not exist, a stance as foolish as it is worthy of derision. Take that, critics! Boo-yeah! I'm going to start cranking out corporatist profit-churning product like you and your wallet won't believe. And don't even think about not buying my pulp, since you would have no basis of evaluating the quality therein, now that it is official that video games are not art. You are meant to consume, grub! Not to question! Now give me yo MOOOOOONEEEEEY!!!1!!!!
QuoteAre video games art? They sure are, but they are also design, and a design approach is what we chose for this new foray into this universe.
For what it's worth, MoMA (The Museum of Modern Art in New York) disagrees with you (and with Roger Ebert). They've started a collection of 14 so far and will be having an installation in March.
For those who might be interested but don't want to read their post (http://www.moma.org/explore/inside_out/2012/11/29/video-games-14-in-the-collection-for-starters), the games they have so far are:
• Pac-Man (1980)
• Tetris (1984)
• Another World (1991)
• Myst (1993)
• SimCity 2000 (1994)
• vib-ribbon (1999)
• The Sims (2000)
• Katamari Damacy (2004)
• EVE Online (2003)
• Dwarf Fortress (2006)
• Portal (2007)
• flOw (2006)
• Passage (2008)
• Canabalt (2009)
QuoteOver the next few years, we would like to complete this initial selection with Spacewar! (1962), an assortment of games for the Magnavox Odyssey console (1972), Pong (1972), Snake (originally designed in the 1970s; Nokia phone version dates from 1997), Space Invaders (1978), Asteroids (1979), Zork (1979), Tempest (1981), Donkey Kong (1981), Yars' Revenge (1982), M.U.L.E. (1983), Core War (1984), Marble Madness (1984), Super Mario Bros. (1985), The Legend of Zelda (1986), NetHack (1987), Street Fighter II (1991), Chrono Trigger (1995), Super Mario 64 (1996), Grim Fandango (1998), Animal Crossing (2001), and Minecraft (2011).
damned, they should have shadow if the colossus instead of cannabalt. Even though cannabalt is very enjoyable ;-D
Games are art.
Anything created by an over sized ego, that serves no practical purpose, has no meaning without an accompanying thesis, offends the senses, and is ridiculously over priced, is undoubtedly art.
Everything else falls in a gray area and it's debatable whether it's art or not.
Not every game is art, not every composition, poem, painting, movie etc. is art either, yet some are. Nor do they have to be, but sometimes they are. Stop trololololololing.
If a game is make as free expression of the author/authors oe when is innovative or experimental, and he not follow some directions because they sold (like trendy theme or famous brand) so that game is art.
Agreed with the OP. In fact art was never true art to begin with. Even the cavemen filled their caves with beautiful hunting scenes for reasons that had nothing to do with art, and so the concept of art has been irreversibly tainted early on - Pandora's box has been opened and the tower of Babel built.
You know what is an absolute art form?
Trolling.
Want to see a good example of the art form?
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=47556.0