Propose some fan-made adventures to cover in The Inventory

[MrColossal]

so lemme get this straight?

DG now says that text, graphics and sound are not necessary for an adventure game, so i take it the only thing that is necessary is the story/narrative and how you choose to tell that story/drive that narrative is unnecessary?

so all the arguements you have made about graphics being unneeded because the same can be done with text is in a way added to by saying that text is unneeded cause the same can be done with another medium?

and you'll be apologizing to remixor and igor? hehe

[Las Naranjas]

I'll reply briefly because my reading of this thread has been sparse.

Whilst the defining element of a hypertext is it's interactivity (and you'll notive I'm making evaluations on them as texts and not Games, whch muddies the issue), graphical adventures which are a seperate but related genre to text adventures, are an audio visual medium, and all elements are important.

George Lucas makes the claim that film is a Visual medium, and he uses that as an excuse to write shit dialogue. But we are no longer in the silent film era and you can't neglect sound unless there actually purpose in doing so.

Just as I attack Syberia for only providing a pretence of interactivity when it was available, I would attack a game that left its graphics in a shambles. But that has limited applicability here because of the fact that its easy to recognise that high quality graphics are easily not within the grasp of amateur developers, and with the limited resources they have, those who can achieve them most likely neglect the larger porton of their game.
Or make fan games to fill the void created by the sapping of creative energies .
There's also the likes of Mostly whose graphical shambles have purpose.

Graphics are an important part of the Audio Visual Hypertext that we call the Adventure Game. Interactivity makes it unique, and seperates it from film, but it's by all means not the only element.
But I'm very wary of good graphics in Amateur games. They seem to distract from the whole. My favourite AGS games either have very utilitarian graphics, or they're very short (Apprentice), unfinished (Sol, Crown of Gold) or still being waited upon like the proverbial postcard (Time Out).

But my hasty and ill based judgement of the Inventory magazine based on the sole issue I've read and the place of it's hosting on JA leads me to believe that there's an overemphasis on eyecandy, though less than in the horrendus reviews on JA.

[Igor]

He better does, or i'll throw my bowling ball at him

[DGMacphee]

Oh, it seems i missed one of your replys yesterday DGM... no wonder with the speed this thread is evolving.
Well, wasn't there some talk about getting personal a few messages back? I won't respond though, as i think i'd get too low with any reply and don't want to additionally heat up otherwise interesting thread.
No hard feelings, but sometimes it's better to "go ride a bike or hang out at your bowling alley" as you wrote, before replying with big letters and exclamation marks.

Okay, okay -- I'll relent here.

I appologise, if you were offended.

However, the point of my "STOP PLAYING ADVENTURE GAMES FOR A MINUTE, GET OUTSIDE AND ENJOY THE WORLD, IGOR!!" was to emphasize that comparing adventure games, of all things, to life real consequence is kind of ridiculous as real life is a little more significant than an adventure game.

I didn't say it to attack you, only to emphasize the above.

Now, let's go bowling!

DG now says that text, graphics and sound are not necessary for an adventure game, so i take it the only thing that is necessary is the story/narrative and how you choose to tell that story/drive that narrative is unnecessary?

Although, this seems like the most preposterous thing you've heard, it's true.

so all the arguements you have made about graphics being unneeded because the same can be done with text is in a way added to by saying that text is unneeded cause the same can be done with another medium?

Once again, it may sound preposterous, but when you think carefully about it, it's true.

and you'll be apologizing to remixor and igor? hehe

I've apologised to Igor, but I don't see why remixor needs an apology, as I never said anything bad about him.

I just politely asked him to be a little more civil (though now that the Igor comment has been brought up, I feel the same could have been applied to me).

I don't think I want to cause any ill-will to anyone here.

...

...

Ah what the hell...

* DGMacphee throws his bowling ball at Eric and calls him "Girly-girly-wet-pant-man"!  

I gather this thread is going nowhere and I'm forever going to be in a minority on this, so I'll shut my gob completely now -- I think my point has been made clear, so if anyone wants reply to my "dogmatic" and "close-minded" drivel without further debate, please do so.

[remixor]

Ok, I still honestly can't force myself to agree with much at all of what DG is saying, but I hope it's clear that I don't hold anything against him personally.  I assume that goes without saying, but just in case, there it is.

Sometimes atmosphere is such an important part of a game that removing it by stripping the game of what gives it atmosphere will leave you with a completely different game.

Read the last thing I wrote in previous post -- You can create atmosphere without graphics.

I realize that, and I even said it myself in one part of my post.  However, I was saying the game would be totally different.  You can get nutrition by consuming wildly varying types of food, but you can still detest one type of food, even if you love another kind that does exactly the same thing for you.  Just because to YOU the narrative drive only requires text doesn't mean that holds true for other adventure gamers.  I'm not arguing that graphics are more important than story or plot, but in a graphic adventure they are indeed crucial.  And hell, I'll just say you CAN create the same narrative drive with just text.  Fine, but narrative drive is not all that makes up a game.  Period.  There are many aspects of a graphic adventure, and you can't boil them all down to something like "narrative drive."

That's irrelevant because that text game would have nothing in common with Grim Fandango!

Except have the same narrative drive, which as I've said, is fundamental to adventure game making.

I never said it wans't fundamental!  However, just because something is fundamental doesn't mean it's the only important part.  Your brain is pretty fundamental, isn't it?  That doesn't mean you would get far without your heart.

Nobody wants to just play through a bunch of interactions, they want a full experience.

I'm not debating on what people want -- I am merely saying that graphics aren't necessary in adventures.

And still, I merely ask: on what authority do you decree this principle?  They are not necessary in text adventures, but in a graphic adventure they obviously are.  Those two genres have wildly diverged.  I understand you can sort of put them in the same category, but it's fairly irrelevant.  On the whole they attract very different sorts of gamers.  Sure, it's very possible for people to enjoy both--but people also enjoy both shooters and puzzle games.  The appeal of graphic adventures is still very different than the appeal of text adventures, even if they do contain some shared elements, like narrative drive.

however, it must be gone about in COMPLETELY different ways.

Yet both rely upon the same inner mechanisms.

No, they don't.  One relies on the player imagining a world in his mind, the other relies on SHOWING a player a world.  This is not the same mechanism at all.

And by the way, the genre of game we here at AGS create and play is actually called the "graphic adventure"--one reason the genre has been dubbed as such is to differentiate it from text adventures, which are very different games.

Both sub-genre are still part of the same genre.

Besides, just because AGS is used to form graphic adventures, it doesn't mean I have to conform to graphic adventure principles when making games.

You most definitely don't, but what I take issue with is that you seem to be trying to define the genre according to what you think is apparently the sole important factor.  I can't tell if you really think narrative drive is the only important part of adventures, or if it's just really important, but whichever one you mean, it sure looks like you're saying the former, so that's how I'm treating your statements.

When graphics were introduced to adventures, it was revolutionary. It wasn't some minor thing that just got tacked on.

No debate there -- Yes, revolutionary, but still cosmetic.

It enhanced the game, but is not a fundamental.

At first, this was true.  However, the genre has evolved greatly to the point where graphics are crucial in providing the unique experience of a particular game.  I absolutely maintain that this is a very different mechanism than creating the experience of a text adventure.

With graphics, one is able to tell stories without having to spell out every word of it--instead of saying "You are in a majestic cathedral", you can SHOW the player a beautifully rendered shot of a vaulted church, light pouring in through the stained-glass windows.

Once again, cosmetic.

Possibly.  Or maybe there are things hidden in the stained glass windows that you would have no choice but to spell out for the player in a text adventure, which could be subtly placed in the graphic adventure.  And what if the whole game is based around clues like this?  It simply wouldn't make sense in a text adventure.

I don't understand how you could think that they are fundamentally the same.  They aren't.  

They are and I've shown how.

You haven't proven otherwise.

Your proof is based entirely on your opinion that graphics are purely cosmetic, and I've given several examples (and another one in this post) of cases when non-text elements cannot be accurately translated in a text adventure.  Even if they literally have the same underlying fundamental elements, they do not provide the same experience, and games are largely about providing an experience for the player.

[remixor]

(sorry, it was too long and I had to split it up)

DG, your point now seems to be that atmosphere merely adds on to a game, and is not fundamentally necessary.  This is SOMETIMES true, but by no means is it always.  Every game has different strengths, and sometimes atmosphere is a big strength.

But you haven't told me how or why graphics are a fundamental of game-making.

Of course I haven't, since I never attempted to say such a thing.  I said that there are many cases of graphic adventure games (not "game-making" as an absolute) in which graphics or other non-text elements provide crucial parts of the game that cannot be reproduced with text.  Even in graphic adventures CAN be translated decently well to text, it is NOT a case of simply "removing the graphics", not at all!  This would seem almost self-evident to me.  In many or even most cases, the gameplay is fundamentally different.

I don't understand why you don't just say "I, DGMacphee, don't care about graphics."

Because I do care about graphics -- I'm attracted to all pretty, shiny things like a crow.

However, I recognise they're only a cosmetic value in the construction.

That is why I place more emphasis on story and interactivity than on graphics and sound.

In adventure games, I generally put far more emphasis on story and interactivity than on graphics and sound as well.  I agree with you there.  Where I cannot possibly agree is where you say that they are "only a cosmetic value."  This CAN be the case, but is by no means always such and I have no desire to continue to provide examples to support my argument there.

The fact that you're trying to make such a broad statement as "Graphics are not necessary in adventures" (especially considering we're talking about GRAPHIC adventures) is absurd!

Just because I belong to a graphical adventure forum means I can't state something for which I've provided evidence?

Now that's absurd!

I didn't say you can't state it, but I still can't help feeling a lot of your "evidence" IS fairly absurd.

You're the only person in this thread with that opinion, and these are the AGS forums, for crying out load, where nobody expects a high graphic standard.

Galileo tried to prove the Earth revolved around the Sun and was labelled a heretic, put on trial by the Spanish Inquisition, and imprisoned.

And let's not forget Nelson Mandela was jailed and beaten for promoting the crazy idea that black people should have the same rigths as white people.

Then again, the Earth rotating around the Sun is a scientific matter.  Games are not bound by the laws of physics, and are essentially only measured by how much fun they provide.  Nobody is going to prove you or me right or wrong a few hundred years down the road.  Same goes for the second example.

Then again, those things are important -- This is just an adventure game forum.  

True dat.

If most adventure gamers think graphics can be very important in a game, and you seem to be the only one here who doesn't, where do you get the authority to make such an absolute judgment?

Because I'm allowed to have an opinion?

Again, it just seems to me that you're trying to pass off your opinion as the law of the genre.  I would have absolutely no problem with you saying "For me, the narrative drive of adventure games is by far and away the most crucial part of the game and graphics don't significantly add to my enjoyment or appreciation of the genre" (or something along those lines).  However, it seems like you're trying to put that on a universal level, and, again, that's where I take issue.

Games exist for the purpose of enjoyment.  Obviously, for most people, graphics can substantially improve the amount of enjoyment one derives from a game.  I don't understand where the lack of understanding occurs at this point.

No lack of understanding.

Graphics can enhance the enjoyment of a game, true.

However, graphics are not fundamental to adventure games, despite enjoyment.

They are not fundamental to all adventure games, but I absolutely stand firm in saying that they are crucial to SOME, or MANY, adventure games.

Some of the most enjoyable games I've played have had zero to limited graphical ability.

Ok...same here.  Also, some of the most enjoyable games I've played have had a lot of graphical ability.  Such statements really don't support either argument at all.


Ok, I'm going to stop responding to individual statements at this point because quite frankly it's just taking too long  Most of what was left I think I've pretty much covered earlier anyway.

Okay, now you're getting a little personal here, as you seem to be throughout your reply.

I'm not trying to push my opinion as dogma -- Ignore me if you want and just consider me as some blathering idiot, cause it doesn't matter to me.

But please, don't automatically assume so much about me, such as being "narrow-minded" and dogmatic.

Ok, I definitely got a bit out of line.  I offer my full apologies.  I don't mean to accuse you as a person of being narrow-minded, it just seemed to me that your opinion on this matter is rather limiting as far as what constitutes an adventure game.  I didn't intend to get more personal than that, and I'm sorry that it came out that way.  Hopefully you won't hold it against me.

You also seem to think that just because I have an opinion that differs from other people, that I'm automatically wrong.

No, if I thought you were automatically wrong, I wouldn't have bothered to write so much.

Well, fine, I'm in a minority.

If you want to conform to the populist belief without any concrete evidence to back your theory up, then go ahead.

Ok, now careful not to fall prey to the same vices I did here.  I don't think I'm being baselessly conformist by any means.  I think I've provided ample support for my arguments.

Just don't call me names like "narrow-minded" or "dogmatic", because I've based these opinion on my own observations and discussions with other AGSers.

Rest assured I won't; again, I'm sorry for making my post more personal than I intended.

Ignore me, blacklist me, think whatever you want, remixor

Nah, no need.



Anyway, it looks like DG is done with this topic.  I probably am too unless someone else posts something new, so I just want to be clear I hold no ill will.  I'm sure DG won't hold it against me.

[MrColossal]

"I'm sure DG won't hold it against me."

if you told him he had a beautiful body he would

[remixor]

Oh man, I hope so.

[Igor]

*Igor throws away bowling ball (along with a few knifes and guns he was hiding under his underpants)*

As i said, no hard feelings. But thanks for apologizing
Just to clarify- my "before TV there was rado.... before houses there were caves" was clearly taken out of context. I was far from comparing games with real life issues. What i did, was comparing advancement of games with technology advancement in general- exaggerated of course. The only reason i did this, was because i misunderstood the point of your argument (as most of other people here clearly did).

Here, now i can finally retire

[DGMacphee]

I think computers also aren't necessary for adventure games!!!!

[remixor]

No computers??  But then how would you do the monkey wrench puzzle from Monkey Island?

[DGMacphee]

[remixor]

I dunno man the experience just isn't the same!11

[DGMacphee]

[Miez]

* Graphics in adventure games are unnecessary, because adventures are narrative-based, and such narrative advances primarily through interactions.

Ok - but a lot of puzzles in point-n-click adventures are based on visual clues, so how can you stick with this argument?

[SSH]

Maybe this would be a good competition in the Comp/Activity forum (or not), but how about some brain exerice by thinking of ways in which very graphical puzzles could be done in a text adventure and vice versa. For example, Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy has some cracking puzzles. For example, you start in bed and can't do ANYTHING until you open your eyes, get out of bed and turn the light on. Or when you teleport on to the Vogon ship, you get:

You can smell nothing, see nothing, taste nothing, hear nothing, feel nothing...

repeatedly, except occasionaly you get:

You can see nothing, taste nothing, hear nothing, feel nothing...

at which point you need to type "SMELL", you smell smelling salts and wake from your unconciousness!

[DGMacphee]

* Graphics in adventure games are unnecessary, because adventures are narrative-based, and such narrative advances primarily through interactions.

Ok - but a lot of puzzles in point-n-click adventures are based on visual clues, so how can you stick with this argument?

If only you'd asked several days ago, I'd be bothered to answer.

Now the thread's fallen into silliness and I'm just posting random crap -- looks like you'll never know what I would have said.

You're too late, the debate's pretty much over, sucks to be you -- HAHAHAHAHAH!  

j/k

[MrColossal]

and DG's posting sock monkey porn....

he's got a huge... banana

and SSH:

that puzzle reminds me of hitchhiker's guide, after you teleport onto the vogon ship you just sit there in blackness [blueness] and you have to keep looking until something happens, then you have to look at it or something like that

eric

[DGMacphee]