I ended up in this site (http://free-game-downloads.mosw.com/) by accident while I was searching for screenshots of the 256 colors version of Deja Vu.
It's one of the dozens of sites that offer games for download under the pretense that they're 'abandonware' (let's not go there). I clicked on 'O' and Other Worlds was there. I then clicked on 'download' to see if the site hotlinked to either AGS or my web page, and I was prompted to enter my credit card number to cover for their "increasing service maintaining costs".
I didn't search the web site for long, but I saw 'The New Adventures of Zak McKracken' there and I'm sure it has more AGS games.
The question is: should we do something about it? Or is it better to not fight a war you can't win?
Ayuh, it's a doozy. You might be interested in this thread:
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=29625.0
Ah, I didn't know we had discussed this before. Feel free to delete/lock this thread dear mods.
What I don't understand is where they got that whole big essay on Other Worlds...
Edit: Nevermind. On closer inspection, it turns out they pikeyed it from JustAdventure...
It's a partial copy & paste of the JA review.
I see several "essays" in their game descriptions, all probably leeched from one web site or another. They have one for The New Adventures of Zak McKracken (http://free-game-downloads.mosw.com/abandonware/pc/adventure/games_m_o/new_adventures_of_zak_mckracken_the.html) too.
This guy is well known for stealing games and stealing reviews. :(
He stole my review of Return Of The Phantom that I wrote for Abandonia, as well as all the other extras I uploaded to Abandonia.
Here is his stolen link - http://free-game-downloads.mosw.com/abandonware/pc/adventure/games_p_r/return_of_the_phantom.html
And here is the original - http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/882/Return+Of+The+Phantom.html
So he leeches games (freeware & abandonware), he steals reviews. What exactly is he charging for? ???
He's hoping to snare any free-roaming idiots into buying stuff that doesn't belong to him, that's all.
Indeed, what a nob-cheese. If anyone should be h4x0rr3d it should be him.
On the other thread, someone suggests swamping his server with hits, or something, to overload it to heck and back. Or something.
Sounds feasible? ANyone up for whatever-it-is,-even-though-I-probably-misunderstood_the-concept?
Has anyone tried the polite approach? Something like, please remove all AGS related games from your site?
Oh. What a novel suggestion.
I assume no one tried it on the grounds that he's stealing from pretty much everywhere as it is, apparently. You could give it a go, though. You've established yourself as a company, as it were, and are selling your own games now, you probably carry more weight than most of us.
Whil atropos could probably stop Other Worlds, it would have little power for the rest.... Of course atropos could have some kind of lawsuite threat letter or seize and desist, but still...
What about EVERYONE contacting him/her/them?
Quote from: alkis21 on Tue 11/03/2008 22:16:22
Has anyone tried the polite approach? Something like, please remove all AGS related games from your site?
I requested several times that he remove my review, my walkthrough, the manuals I scanned etc to be removed from his site, as well as other work he stole from Abandonia.
My requests fell on deaf ears. I got no reply at all.
But as Rui says, Alkis is a 'company' now, and may have more power than the rest of us.
Why don';t we just kill the guy?
If he won't listen to reason, I doubt he will respond to threats. But I promise to try soon.
Does he have anything on that website he made himself? Steal it!!
Check this, I think it's a good way to get an answer:
QuoteDo you provide a phone support? [top]
Basically not. However if you really wish to call us, you can reach us at +420 723 225 754 (please see your rates to Czech Republic), between 8:00 and 21:00 GMT (3:00AM and 4:00PM EST). However we prefer email communication over phone, because that way we have enough time to explore possible problems, test something etc. Please have this in your mind before you decide to call us.
What I think he's saying is; "That way, I don't have to respond to the many people I've pissed off." Time for some prank calls then, my friend? ;)
Let's organise a bit...
Having each author contacting him won't really work.
Let's see how many games from AGS are in there. There could be all of the games as far as we know. Let's make a list, let's get the authors to make a note, or take their names at least, etc and then let's contact one of the AGS forum members who know a bit about law (sinister, or Rick, or someone anyways) to make a letter. After that we'll see.
I really don't like to see games that are intellectual property of people in here, to be listed there and that you have to pay in order to get them, while they can be found for free over here in AGS... :(
If I ever find 'Project hecka' in his site for pay, I'll try to contact my old friend Khzir and hack the hell out of his damn site!
or cause a massacre, whichever is more stress-relieving.
Seriously though, someone with high athority should do something...
EDIT: That's a good idea Nickolas.
I agree with Nikolas. If someone can prepare a list for me, I'll be happy to have my lawyer contact him.
Errrm...
I'm a little disturbed by the host of his email address... http://www.mosw.com/ (http://www.mosw.com/) (San Pedro Software Inc.)
Seems to be a website for keylogging software. I know this doesn't automatically make him a hacker but the guy obviously has a problem with right and wrong, so it wouldn't surprise me.
What if he is including such software as a virus with the game downloads?
I'm working on the list right now!
Just keep in mind that maybe someone wouldn't mind his game being listed in the site, for the added exposure (whatever that is). So we do need to check with the creators before we contact the bastard with a list of 50 games or so (I've found rather few so far btw... around 10, but I'm at letter F ;D)
EDIT:
This is what I found, but I'm really tired and not sure at all if there are more games that I don't know off, or not in the AGS games database, or if I missed one... So not 100% sure really
Quote from: games5 Days a Stranger
7 Days a Skeptic
Abducted: 10 Minutes
Adventures in the Galaxy of Fantabulous Wonderment
Adventures of Fatman: Toxic Revenge, The
Apprentice
Apprentice II: The Knight's Move
Black Cauldron, The
Calsoon
Calsoon 2
Cirque de Zale
Emily Enough
Friend Indeed, A
Future Wars (a.k.a. Les Voyages du Temps)
Hollywood Hijinx
Invincible Island ????
Larry Vales 1: Traffic Division
Larry Vales 2: Dead Girls are Easy
Night of The Hermit
Other Worlds
Perils of Poom, The
Permanent Daylight
Perry Mason
Pleurghburg: Dark Ages
Project Xenophobe
Razors in the Night
Red Dwarf
Rob Blanc 3: The Temporal Terrorists
Rode Kill: A Day in The Life
Rode Quest 2
RON1: Lunchtime of The Damned
RON2 1/2: Fowl Play
RON2: Vengeance of The Chicken
RON3: Soviet Union Strikes Again
RON4: I Spy
RON5: Nihilism
RON6: Blastoff
RON7: Dee Vee Ess
Saturday School
Two of a Kind
Gasp!
Egad!
Oh My God!
Holy Moley!
Abaghast! (What the heck...is that even a real word?)
so many titles...
*Applaudes Nickolas for his hard work.
Good job Nikolas. As you probably know there are more strikes in Greece these days than in the bowling world championships, but I might be able to get something going by the end of the week.
A lawyer probably will know more, but the only way to stop him "legally" is to claim copyright infrigment. Just because something is free it does not mean that it's copyright free. Each author of the AGS games here, owns copyright of the game and all work inside it. And they can do whatever they want and how they want it! I've had trouble with my scores in my website some time ago, where people started getting the scores and hosting them ,and offering them as part of a big library for "free" scores. I got SO annoyed, and contacted them. At least they removed the scores. It doesn't mean a thing that my scores were freely found in my website and IMSLP (where they actually asked permition to use them).
Anyways, good luck Alkis, I know about the strikes. I'm waiting money for 2 weeks now, but the banks are on bloody strikes! At least the "asfalistiko" goes in on Thursday I hear, so everybody will... stop (?) good luck!
From now on, AGS developers should write "This is a freeware game" in the intro and finishing credits. It honestly won't change much, since that's what he seems to be selling anyway; others freeware games. Now that I've seen this, if I complete a game, I'll be writing it in there. Then maybe someone will get pissed that they bought a free game, and make an attack on this person. haha
Meh.
Quote from: Ryan Timothy on Wed 19/03/2008 02:47:58
From now on, AGS developers should write "This is a freeware game" in the intro and finishing credits.
Seems the best way, really. Even with only one game on my slate I'm surprised how far it has travelled. That's the internet. A wide pool to swim in, and there's always some snotty kid pi**ing into the drink. sic.
Also, Nikolas, a really great job you did there! If that sets something in motion, I'd be all the happier.
Quote from: Ryan Timothy on Wed 19/03/2008 02:47:58
From now on, AGS developers should write "This is a freeware game" in the intro and finishing credits. It honestly won't change much, since that's what he seems to be selling anyway; others freeware games. Now that I've seen this, if I complete a game, I'll be writing it in there. Then maybe someone will get pissed that they bought a free game, and make an attack on this person. haha
Meh.
that's a good idea
We should make a 'free game' logo/ certificate or something.
'if you bought this, you were ripped off'
they have it on fan subtitled anime.
Quote from: vertigoaddict on Wed 19/03/2008 07:05:56
Quote from: Ryan Timothy on Wed 19/03/2008 02:47:58
From now on, AGS developers should write "This is a freeware game" in the intro and finishing credits. It honestly won't change much, since that's what he seems to be selling anyway; others freeware games. Now that I've seen this, if I complete a game, I'll be writing it in there. Then maybe someone will get pissed that they bought a free game, and make an attack on this person. haha
Meh.
that's a good idea
We should make a 'free game' logo/ certificate or something.
'if you bought this, you were ripped off'
they have it on fan subtitled anime.
Great idea for the next Sprite Jam!!
My games are not on the list, which i have searched for sooner than Nikolas did put all the AGS games list of his. I can't really prosecute them myself for nothing since none of my products are in there nor i bought a freeware game this way. Please guys gather up so we can close this f^*^( as%$ mo$%$&# bussiness. He's lucky that my game isn't in there.
Not that it means anything... but here's his fine print:
"As far as we know, all software available for download on this site had been discontinued by their authors and is now available for free, or was published as free since release. We appreciate comments to remove any software that is not of free usage and has accidentaly appeared on this site."
I suggest a perl script to run through the AGS database and his own database... checking for title matches... But that'd require perl, which I don't know....
Interesting. Because my game on there 'Invincible Island' hadn't been discontinued. The original release was for a competition and had a lot of features still not finished when the deadline arrived. While they were charging for this release I was still working to make the game complete. It was definately not discontinued and I made it clear at the time that it was incomplete.
...and even if you do class it as "discontinued", that still wouldn't give some stranger the right to charge people for it.
Good thing my games are crap enough to not to be "featured" on such sites.
Has anybody actually tried contacting this guy yet? His email is plastered across every page gms@mosw.com so if nobody has done so I will contact him and demand that he remove all AGS games within a certain time period or we will take legal action against him.
Well, basically that fine print is saying "Yes, this is all free, you're paying me for free stuff."
Therefore, it's the people's choice - they've been theoretically informed, and can choose to pay him for something they can find for free.
Smart, really. It's perfectly fine, legally.
Quote from: Rui 'Trovatore' Pires on Wed 26/03/2008 21:51:47
Smart, really. It's perfectly fine, legally.
No it's not!
He does NOT own the copyrights of the game, even if freeware: The creators do. And the creators can choose where to host the games, if they want to stop offering them, or whatever really.
He has absolutely no right to host these games, or offer them and ask for service fees beforehand!
Well, he has the right to host them, as much as anyone has the right to host free games - put a crimp on *that* and you'll put a crimp on freeware game hosting pretty much everywhere except where the games creators thought of. Not everyone asks for permission, and do you, as the creator, care, since it's being distributed to an even wider audience? Sure, it'd be best if they asked, but let's not hope for too much.
What he's saying is, "I can get you this free stuff, you just pay me for burning the CD or whatever it is I do". It's not unlike asking a friend to do the same and giving him a CD to burn - except on a larger scale. In this light, it does not look wrong at all. IF people have read the fine print that TELLS them it's all free, and/or have a couple of brain cells to bang together.
Now - if the game's maker want him not to host them, or distribute them, that's another matter entirely, and a sure place where we can get him if we decide to do anything.
Actually it more like "The copyright owners (creators) have a right to stop people from hosting their game if they wish", rather than what you say. And no, legally, nobody has the right to do that. And, no it won't crimp the freeware community. At least I don't believe so! Especially since he's so kind to ask for money, when the games are hosted elsewhere for free!
Nikolas is right- if someone releases a game as freeware, he somehow agrees to other people hosting it and giving it away for free, yes, but starting to ask for money violates the owners right.
In the old days it was quite common to allow "distributors" of free/shareware to ask for a small amount of money, covering the cost of a disk, but that was about it.
Thought that was what the money he charged for was for. :P
Anyways, I'm not advocating for the guy, I'd like to see his site shut down. :P
I'd like to see a hacker shut his site down. I like that ending better.
You have all the rights for your own games and it's your choice whether they'll get published for money or not, not some
Spoiler
fuckass
choice.. oh boy do i get mad!!!
Just a quick note to say that I haven't forgotten about this one. News will be posted soon.
I will just reply to the starting post since that is all I read.
I say if there are people out there that find sites that make you pay for point and click adventure games from 15-20 years ago then let those dodos pay and download.
Me I search the web for everything FREE. It might take a little more time to find a site that hosts free downloads but to me it's time well wasted and hard earned money saved.
2. If you are the creator or anything that is meant to be free then confront the person peddling it and beat the snot out of them till they stop marketing it. ;D No one else deserves that money but the person that spent their time creating it. The other guy is just a crook.
Is it not fraud to call your website "free game downloads" but then charge for the priviledge of downloading them? It seems like it's free in name only.
Many of excellent games were made by their authors without any financial demands. In this section, you discover a volume of just such games, and you convince yourself of their indisputable qualities. Amuse your leisure by games, that has been and will be forever free. Furthermore, you locate here pleasing fan-made remakes of former classics, amateur-made games, and many other full games to download.
Note that that's his empasis on "forever free" and not mine. His logic sure makes my mind boggle.
Seems like everyone is mad at this guy for charging money for freeware games.
Seems like only a few people are mad at this guy for infringing on copyright, which is the only real crime he actually is committing, and which he would still be committing even if he didn't charge people.
This intrigues me.
Um, well, he makes money off our games that we make as a hobby - free downloads.
If I missed what the original topic was, sorry, but anyone making money off our free games isn't right - fuck them.
--Snake
Quote from: EldKatt on Fri 18/04/2008 21:36:13
Seems like everyone is mad at this guy for charging money for freeware games.
Seems like only a few people are mad at this guy for infringing on copyright, which is the only real crime he actually is committing, and which he would still be committing even if he didn't charge people.
This intrigues me.
To be perfectly honest I don't think he is infringing on copyright. Legally, at least, I think he's perfectly within his rights to distribute freeware with or without a cost involved. If he's not claiming any rights over the software, (eg all games are in their original condition, including reference to the original authors), and the originators didn't specify that the software was for personal or non-commerical use only then he's well within his rights.
Sure you have the right to be pissed off about it and you could ask for your work to be removed from the website, (provided of course that it is your work and you can prove you are the originator), but as you can't demonstrate any loss of earnings I shouldn't think that you have any legal right to demand its removal, (although thanks to the RIAA you'd probably find it an easier point to argue than in the past).
Think of it this way: you spend a night in a hotel room and take the Gideon Bible from the bedside cabinet. You then sell that Bible on eBay for 50p. Are you infringing copyright? You haven't claimed to have written it or even printed it yourself so why would the Gideons get pissed off?
Hudders: Copyright infrigment is the only thing he's guilty of actually! :D The opposite of what you think.
Copyright means the right to copy if you switch words! It means that I, the creator, hold the right to do whatever I want with my art/music/game/etc. If I want I can take it down, I can stop anyone from having it, for whatever the reason. I have the right to know who the game is going to, etc. Since the guy is hosting the files, he is breaking that exact right!
Unless your game includes a licence agreement that prohibits commercial distribution, I'm not sure you'd have much of a legal leg to stand on.
Again, actually.
Copyright does not need registration in 90% of countries, or something. You don't even need the (C) sign anymore. Anything you create is yours, unless you say otherwise or is a work for hire.
Anything not permited in the license is simply not permited! I don't have to cover everything in the license in order to cover my ass. I say what you DO get, not what you DON'T.
In my website you can get mp3s, and you used to be able to get scores as well. Apart from a copyright notice in the website, there's nothing else pretty much. This doesn't give them the right to take the mp3s, or even sell them, or do whatever they want. If they want to tell their friends, etc, the link is known. They actually shouldn't even share mp3s, but it doesn't matter in my case!
HOWEVER, when I found out that a random database of scores was HOSTING my scores and offering them, I contacted them and took them down, without much to ask from them! "These are mine and I don't want you to host them".
I'm no lawyer, but the above experience makes me think that I was right and they wrong. As for the guy with the freeware games, I have huge faith in Alkis! He made a company in Greece for crying out loud in order to sell DiTR! I'm sure he can tackle the bastard... ;)
(Imagine that the guy we/I call bastard some other people consider a saviour of old and forgotten games, of games that otherwise would be lost, of someone who is providing a service in society!!!!!!!!!)
Copyright law does not exist to allow you to do what you like with your work. It exists to protect you from people who would copy your work and distribute it as their own or create derivative works based on your original idea.
Quote from: Nikolas on Mon 21/04/2008 23:25:04
Copyright does not need registration in 90% of countries, or something. You don't even need the (C) sign anymore. Anything you create is yours, unless you say otherwise or is a work for hire.
Anything not permited in the license is simply not permited! I don't have to cover everything in the license in order to cover my ass. I say what you DO get, not what you DON'T.
It might not need registration but you still have to prove that you are the copyright holder and contact the guy to take the thing down. If he isn't satisfied that you are the copyright holder then you will have to go to court over it and suffer and long, costly, and laborious process to get what amounts to a piece of code removed from a server.
The burden of proof is still on you. He is currently legally within his rights to host the files until someone, (preferably a judge), tells him to stop doing it. Even then it would be difficult to argue exactly what law he has broken since the games in question don't carry a copyright notice and it would be unlikely that he would suffer a penalty.
By creating a
freeware piece of software without any kind of licensing agreement or copyright notice, you are not defining how that piece of software can be distributed. If I write a book and identify myself as the author, I cannot complain when I find that book being sold second-hand in Help the Aged - the only right I have to complain is if my copyright has been violated: if someone has passed the work off as their own or has copied large parts of it in their own body of work.
As I said before, you have a right to complain and you have a right to be pissed off but when it comes down to it, you're not actually losing out from this practice and what is happening is not exactly against the law. By all means ask for your work to be removed if you feel personally agreived and in future make sure to pepper your opening credits with a copyright notice and licensing restrictions, (eg. for personal non-commerical use only). The Creative Commons (http://creativecommons.org/) has a fantastic framework for authors to easily mark their creative work and I suggest that everybody who is concerned about their work appearing on other websites, (for profit or otherwise), uses it.
Quote from: Hudders on Tue 22/04/2008 09:18:08
Copyright law does not exist to allow you to do what you like with your work. It exists to protect you from people who would copy your work and distribute it as their own or create derivative works based on your original idea.
Not only! It protects your work and you can do whatever you want with it. It is the right to copy! If I want I can stop you from taking my music, or my game, for whatever reason (of course it's bullshit and of course it can't happen really, can it? but it's just an example).
I will repeat that I've had my scores somewhere and when I contacted them, they immediately took them down. I also have my scores in ISMLP (to be removed soon, however), and in order for them to get there, they contacted me first. Do you think that they could have my scores "legally" any other way?
QuoteIt might not need registration but you still have to prove that you are the copyright holder and contact the guy to take the thing down. If he isn't satisfied that you are the copyright holder then you will have to go to court over it and suffer and long, costly, and laborious process to get what amounts to a piece of code removed from a server.
True enough, but he is crediting the right people, so this might not be much of a problem now would it? Additionally, with games all you need is the folder with the workd you've done, a thread in AGS maybe (though not sure how it goes with a judge and a simple internet forum), maybe some magazines (for example ATOTK has been mentioned a lot of times and always been credited to crystal shard. I doubt anyone could battle multi lingual, multi country magazines that all mention the same thing and try to take credit for something they've not done. In addition, for the music part, I have all project files. ;)
But of course it is a hussle to go into court, no doubt, I agree. Still I imagine it's also hussle for the guy breaking the copyright.
QuoteThe burden of proof is still on you. He is currently legally within his rights to host the files until someone, (preferably a judge), tells him to stop doing it. Even then it would be difficult to argue exactly what law he has broken since the games in question don't carry a copyright notice and it would be unlikely that he would suffer a penalty.
But that's the whole point!: It's not within his rights to host the files, unless he's taken permission. Just because something is free it doesn't mean you can do whatever the hell you want with it. You still have to take permission in order to host, distribute, etc.
QuoteBy creating a freeware piece of software without any kind of licensing agreement or copyright notice, you are not defining how that piece of software can be distributed. If I write a book and identify myself as the author, I cannot complain when I find that book being sold second-hand in Help the Aged - the only right I have to complain is if my copyright has been violated: if someone has passed the work off as their own or has copied large parts of it in their own body of work.
I don't know about books, but let me ask you this: I've done music for freeware games over here, for AGS games, and for free. Do you think it's fine someone selling MY music, MY mp3s, somewhere? Books are not digital, they are hard copies, etc.
You are actually saying that any mp3 you find on the Internet, you have a right to sell? ;D
QuoteAs I said before, you have a right to complain and you have a right to be pissed off but when it comes down to it, you're not actually losing out from this practice and what is happening is not exactly against the law. By all means ask for your work to be removed if you feel personally agreived and in future make sure to pepper your opening credits with a copyright notice and licensing restrictions, (eg. for personal non-commerical use only). The Creative Commons (http://creativecommons.org/) has a fantastic framework for authors to easily mark their creative work and I suggest that everybody who is concerned about their work appearing on other websites, (for profit or otherwise), uses it.
I think it is against the law, I think the guy, either he knows it or not, he's not doing something good, nice, or even legal, in the end.
I have NO games, or works of my own in that website, so this is not personal. I don't have anything to lose or gain if I contact the guy. Alkis has! (he's got a game on that website), and many others do. And I certainly don't see many happy faces around here, with 20+ games on that website.
The point is that even without licensing note, or copyright note, it still doesn't give you the right to do anything with a game apart from play it. And ok, common sense and all that, you can
help out, and people do, and there is a grey area, that is called abandonware, and in addition here in AGS we have the bicylcle for slugs (or something), which has pretty much all games in there (Rui?), but it's not the same.
Ignorance of the law does not make it right. If I didn't see the stop sign on the road, I'm still at fault, should I crash. On houses there isn't a sign that says "don't enter this is private property", simply because you don't need to! Same with music, although some pissheads think otherwise: You can't just take an mp3 and do whatever you want with it. And in any case where exactly should the license go about that? (I don't like CC personally, but that's a different issue). With games it's pretty much the same. There is a game, for you to download and enjoy. After that neil! You can tell your friends (it's quite easy to point them to the right direction), you can make a database with links (how is that wrong?), you can share your opinion (called review), etc. You CAN'T host it on your own! You CAN'Y charge for "services" on work that other people have done!
_______________
Actually I know someone who somehow, got his music into the Batman begins trailer! He is credited in yahoo trailers or something. But he had no idea! Can you begin to imagine how faulty is that? Because with your thinking it should be alright actually to do that. Heck, with your thinking anything free on the Internet can actually be sold! :o
It astonishes me how many people have these strange ideas of what copyright is, and insist on spreading them with the claim that they're right, without bothering to learn about it. Stop making shit up and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright) go (http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html) educate (http://users.goldengate.net/~kbrady/copyright.html) yourselves (http://www.copyright.gov/). This goes for just about everyone except Nikolas here...
Copyright gives the originator of a work exclusive rights to reproduce and distribute that work, among other things. If someone else wants to do any of that stuff, they need permission from the copyright holder. With no license text included, a "freeware" game is by default protected by copyright to the full extent. If you want people to be able to distribute your game by putting it up on their website or whatever, you need to expressly say so. That's why we have things like Creative Commons, GPL and so forth. I could go on, but the four links above (chosen semi-randomly through google magic but still good) are probably more than enough to correct most of the misinformation here.
Nikolas is right. Anything you write, draw, type, compose, paint, invent, code, crap out, etc. is automatically copyrighted. You can register with a copyright firm if you want, for peace-of-mind, but as long as you have proof that you did it before somebody else, you'll be fine.
It's not like a criminal court, where you have to prove the defendant guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. All you have to do is convince the judge that it is most likely your work, rather than the other guy's. Nothing definitive is required.
A 'copyright notice' isn't required either, and only really comes up when you sell or lend your copyright to a company, which is a different issue altogether.
Copyright is a big concept, in my eyes/head, a bit like forming particles that existed a billionth of a second after the big bang that created our universe :P I don't think we can ever fully get our heads around it. That could just be me, though. I'm still learning about copyright and its power, there's a lot to grasp. I think we may be deviating from the point here though, and randomly arguing quite harshly at each other :=
I'm dissapointed when I see people trying to sell other peoples work without their permission. It's just one of those things that kind of seperates those that are really passionate about something with those that are unfortunately more passionate about ripping off other peoples work for their own benefit.
I know this guy has a disclaimer, but its quite ridiculously written & anyone can see what he's doing is not in the best interests of anyone else. His best interests would be to offer links & update frequently. That's someone who's being genuine & actually passionate about what "we" do. Take adventure-archiv.com for example. I take these people very seriously because they take what I do very seriously too. Therefore they have a genuine site with a lot of eager visitors, and they're not ripping anyone off or doing something thats, well, just not etiquete in this industry. I'd be surprised to learn anyone here not wanting the same peace of mind over other websites and their distributions or publications of our works, though that doesn't mean I don't expect there to be someone who just wants to use everything we do here for their own greater good (in a nasty infringing kind of way :P).
As I see it, you do get copyright over your works, instantly - but if you really want to prosecute someone over an infringment of your work, the best thing to do is "register" said work with the world federation of copyright peoples inc. Mass, USA, or whatever. As people have said... But searching google actually suggests that kind of approach is a bit too anonymous though. Still, someone copyrighted something of mine for me once, a film script or something, using the internet, but I'm not sure what net resource or script that was :P TONG I believe ;) Saying that I've been in shit with copyright infringment myself, Universal were one step from shutting me down in the film world, and as you're aware constantly working around it in the game world too (teh F word!1).
But where I'm bending the rules I try and make sure its as straight as I can get it. The better option would be these companies give me a million pounds to make something official and shut me up for a while :P But because I have certain respect its not like I'm doing anything to rip them off. This guy IS. Like I said, LINKS and updates. Thats a good, healthy for new visitors, respectful of authors kinda website. Asking someone to part with their money is NOT his decision.
All I can do is urge developers to use disclaimers in their games a bit more often. Hard code a splash screen or a few lines in the Install program to secure your rights and then you'll have every reason to get your own back when the situation arises. Also, if someone like him sees your disclaimer, he'll think twice about asking people to pay for it.
Something simple, or something more complex explaining how your original work (art, music etc) is not to be sold or modified etc, could help you in the long run, or just help the goodwill of our community, and stop these bastards trying to make a quick buck from what we do without our permission.
Quote
This Game is a Freeware release by (your name/company name) and must not be sold for profit. If you have paid for this Game please contact email@email.com
Good luck! And no more stressing over copyright please!!! ::)
As mods said, copyright is a big, complicated issue and I don't think anyone in this thread is considering all aspects of it when they have posted, (to EldKatt - I suggest you read everything provided in your links before you accuse anyone of not knowing what copyright is and isn't).
I don't want to keep dragging this out and continue a petty arguement over something which, for the majority of us, isn't really an issue so instead I'll just reiterate what I said before:
If you are the author of a game that is on that website, contact the webmaster and ask for it to be removed. Ask politely, be courteous. There is no point arguing the ins and outs of copyright law when nobody has even tried this approach yet. I'm sure that if the webmaster is a reasonable human being, they will comply with your wishes, (if he is an astute human being, he will ask for proof first).
If he refuses to take your game from the website, then you can debate copyright law and what your next steps are. But you aren't giving the guy the benefit of the doubt, frankly. At first, when I came to this topic I was dead against him but now I find I'm siding with him on this issue, particularly since a lot of people here seem eager to jump the gun and follow the RIAA method of copyright bullying.
Quote from: Hudders on Wed 23/04/2008 13:57:36
(to EldKatt - I suggest you read everything provided in your links before you accuse anyone of not knowing what copyright is and isn't).
OK. Seems like you're implying that I have here made some or other incorrect statement about copyright myself. Is this interpretation of your vague little remark correct? If not, I apologize, but that's the only way I can make sense of it.
If that is what you meant, though, I would appreciate if you point out
where I'm mistaken instead of just implying that I am with no specific claim, which is a pretty pointless debating tactic that probably nobody is falling for.
The bottom line I guess is please say what you really mean instead of wrapping it up in a rude little
implication that leaves me guessing what you're trying to say.
Quote from: EldKatt on Wed 23/04/2008 14:34:27
Quote from: Hudders on Wed 23/04/2008 13:57:36
(to EldKatt - I suggest you read everything provided in your links before you accuse anyone of not knowing what copyright is and isn't).
OK. Seems like you're implying that I have here made some or other incorrect statement about copyright myself. Is this interpretation of your vague little remark correct? If not, I apologize, but that's the only way I can make sense of it.
If that is what you meant, though, I would appreciate if you point out where I'm mistaken instead of just implying that I am with no specific claim, which is a pretty pointless debating tactic that probably nobody is falling for.
The bottom line I guess is please say what you really mean instead of wrapping it up in a rude little implication that leaves me guessing what you're trying to say.
I didn't want to get into it. Suffice to say that it isn't as cut-and-dry as you paint the picture. You were making out like everyone who has previously posted on the subject of copyright was an idiot who didn't know what copyright was. But then your links don't seem to match what you're trying to say.
Eg:
QuoteWhile copyright law makes it technically illegal to reproduce almost any new creative work (other than under fair use) without permission, if the work is unregistered and has no real commercial value, it gets very little protection. The author in this case can sue for an injunction against the publication, actual damages from a violation, and possibly court costs. Actual damages means actual money potentially lost by the author due to publication, plus any money gained by the defendant. But if a work has no commercial value, such as a typical E-mail message or conversational USENET posting, the actual damages will be zero. Only the most vindictive (and rich) author would sue when no damages are possible, and the courts don't look kindly on vindictive plaintiffs, unless the defendants are even more vindictive.
This would seem to apply in this instance.
Anyway, whatever. I retract the statement because, as I said, I don't want to continue the arguement.
If anyone gets the idea that I'm calling everyone an idiot, sorry, that's not my intention. ("Just about everyone except Nikolas" doesn't mean "everyone except Nikolas: I assumed people would be able to decide for themselves if I was talking about them.)
Regarding the case in point, there's obviously a difference between theory and practice. Having exclusive rights doesn't mean that courts are standing by to help you protect enforce them, that is true. That said, I do not think my previous post was a misstatement of fact, and I am somewhat bothered by the certainty with which some people have made patently false claims. Thanks.
Hudders, I'm still waiting for an answer though.
In this case you get some games. The games, most of them, don't even mention they are freeware, do they? At least not all! Not in game. So you get a game, a decide to host it yourself, and then ask for money, as well as give it to anyone who wants it. (I don't care about the money issue).
Answer me this then: Is it within your rights to host MY mp3s, MY own created mp3s in your website? Or even worst charge for services of any sorts?
Even worst: You find an mp3 somewhere, anywhere. There is no license on the mp3 to mention it's commercial or not. There's no judge to tell you that you can judge from the mp3 that this is a commercial effort, or a free one. Can you host these as well? How do you know that a track named "girlfriend" is free or not? I assume it's free! Even if, btw, an artist named "Avril Lavigne" has a same name track...
I personally see absolutely no difference between the 3! Of course I don't have the facility to chase you down and smack you, heck not even Avril has, why do you think piracy is at such high levels?
Do you see the above are simmilar scenarios?
If so, do you see that, while there is a difference of budget, the law breaking remains the same?
In other words, what you are supporting is that:
i. Free don't have a value so they don't deserve much
ii. Free do not have money, so they don't stand a chance in court, etc.
I am honestly expecting an answer to this, please.
EDIT: The damage being done in this case is that freeware games are being coloured by a price tag. The "service " price tag, asked by the guy in the website. There is no money loss, but a freeware games creator, sure cares if his game is downloaded 1000 times or 100,000, don't you think?
Quote from: Hudders on Wed 23/04/2008 13:57:36
If you are the author of a game that is on that website, contact the webmaster and ask for it to be removed. Ask politely, be courteous. There is no point arguing the ins and outs of copyright law when nobody has even tried this approach yet. I'm sure that if the webmaster is a reasonable human being, they will comply with your wishes, (if he is an astute human being, he will ask for proof first).
If he didn't remove my walkthroughs when I asked him to, what makes you think he will remove anyone's game when asked?
Look, I don't pretend to be an expert and Eldkatt, I apologise for being an idiot.
Nikolas, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. I know it's the same thing, whether something is free or otherwise but I think people are jumping the gun a little bit with talk of copyright law and legal action. I don't see where it's going if nobody has bothered to contact the guy and nobody whose interests are being discussed has even weighed in on the issue recently.
Frodo, it's difficult to know whether he would or he wouldn't. That you didn't get any response whatsoever is a bit odd in my mind; I would try again if I were you.
Hudders, I tried several times. Each time, I got no response at all.
Hudders,
The discussion that we're having is probably OT to the issue at hand.
What was said is that the only legal point that AGS creators, who don't want their games on his website have, is the copyright infrigment. That's all. You dissagreed, I explained and game a few examples (and challenged as well).
I'm not a control freak or anything, but since I see pretty much everyone bothered in here with this case, and the only obvious approach would be the copyright thing, I don't see any point not discussing it. Either way it's Alkis's job now, not mine to do anything, I'm just discussing some fine details about copyright. That you don't have to have a license in order to do anything or to prevent people from taking advantage of your creations. This kind of thing. :)
License in games is above copyright, and further to that. the EUL is more like a contract rather than a copyright reminder.
Quote from: Hudders on Wed 23/04/2008 21:34:00
and Eldkatt, I apologise for being an idiot.
No harm done whatsoever.
Quote from: Nikolas on Wed 23/04/2008 22:26:13
What was said is that the only legal point that AGS creators, who don't want their games on his website have, is the copyright infrigment. That's all. You dissagreed, I explained and game a few examples (and challenged as well).
I'm not saying that copyright infringement isn't the legal point in question, I'm debating whether that legal claim has any weight in the real world and whether from a legal standpoint, the guy could be
currently in the right, having not been requested to remove the item from his website.
It's a rocky road, copyright, and if something can be done without resorting to expensive lawyers, it should be. I think you would have difficulty arguing to a judge that you have lost anything by your game being on that site anyway.
As a general rule, I'd say that people
should put copyright notices and EULAs on their products because it helps avoid these situations in the first place. I know you don't need one but I think in most situations it's more preferable than having your stuff ripped off to start with. I'd also say you should put the AGS website address in - if more people knew about the wealth of games here, they wouldn't continue paying the "free game" website for things that are actaully free.
Quote from: Hudders on Thu 24/04/2008 13:46:35
I'm not saying that copyright infringement isn't the legal point in question, I'm debating whether that legal claim has any weight in the real world and whether from a legal standpoint, the guy could be currently in the right, having not been requested to remove the item from his website.
I believe it does and thus the whole "debate". Of course it's a light weight. Also just because somebody didn't ask him to take it down (which I believe at least Frodo has done so already), it doesn't mean that they should be there. You're not fine, even if illegal if somebody doesn't stop you! ;)
QuoteIt's a rocky road, copyright, and if something can be done without resorting to expensive lawyers, it should be. I think you would have difficulty arguing to a judge that you have lost anything by your game being on that site anyway.
Again, I think it's quite the opposite, though nothing like this would end up in a court. Should the judge know about this, he would just order the guy to take the games down, the end. Just because it's the creators right to say and do so! Not the guys right to have it on.
But again the discussion has escalated, I hope the guy will be reasonable enough to remove anything that does not belong to him, or at least the things that he's been asked to! Alkis should take care of this at some point, I believe.
QuoteAs a general rule, I'd say that people should put copyright notices and EULAs on their products because it helps avoid these situations in the first place. I know you don't need one but I think in most situations it's more preferable than having your stuff ripped off to start with. I'd also say you should put the AGS website address in - if more people knew about the wealth of games here, they wouldn't continue paying the "free game" website for things that are actaully free.
This is a fine advice I say. I do have a note in my website regarding copyright of all contents, etc, and all mp3s are signed to me. not that it is 100% necessary, but it makes things easier as well "hey! Who made this music? Oh it's nikolas-sideris.com! Let's hire him!", etc... :)
Yes, yes, more than 120 days... :o
So, any news on this, anyone?
The AGS games are still up!
Reason I'm bringing this up, is that I'm having the exactly same problem with my scores. Someone is SELLING services and has my scores in. Which means that some people may get tricked and buy a subscription in order to get ahold of my scores, even if they can be found free elsewhere.
So, any news?
Wow! Just skimmed through this topic, and I too would be interested in the progress that's been made.
~Trent
what would i do? Death camp for them!