It seems like we have a lot of them. (http://thecitizenkaneofvideogames.tumblr.com/) But what adventure game can be our Citizen Kane?
Snakes of Avalon obviously.
The second KG remake is a candidate.
AND Apprentice II.
And Chance Of The Dead.
In terms of sheer populaity outside the community, any Yathzee game.
For thematic depth and tone I'd say Gemini Rue.
I was never quite sure how Citizen Kane was the Citizen Kane of movies. Was it thematic depth and tone (is Citizen Kane unusually deep and toneful)? Popularity (is Citizen Kane all that popular among non-film students or film buffs)? From what I gather, I guess it has to do with filming techniques and camera angles and Mise en scene and other fancy words that the layman wouldn't consciously notice.
What would be the parallel to that in gaming? Programming? Interface? Atmosphere and aesthetic?
So...I dunno. Loom?
Quote from: Babar on Fri 21/06/2013 02:04:03I was never quite sure how Citizen Kane was the Citizen Kane of movies.
In America, the reputation of Kane was fostered by Pauline Kael. You can read her two articles that shifted the historical and scholarly view of the film here (http://www.paulrossen.com/paulinekael/raisingkane.html).
Quote from: Eric on Fri 21/06/2013 02:10:23
the reputation of Kane was fostered
I see what you did here.
So basically, to be the Citizen Kane of something, the people in the know still have to be talking about it long after it is made?
In that case, for adventure games, I guess..
Zork? Monkey Island? :D
To be the Citizen Kane of something is to be the first widely recognized example of having fully used all the unique techniques of a particular medium to communicate something meaningful.
Like things about human condition and stuff.
Quote from: Ascovel on Fri 21/06/2013 02:49:51
To be the Citizen Kane of something is to be the first widely recognized example of having fully used all the unique techniques of a particular medium to communicate something meaningful.
In that case, Maniac Mansion maybe? It did set the bar for pretty much all mouse-operated adventure games that followed. It wasn't the first graphical, or mouse-driven adventure but it did really push the envelope back in its day.
Quote from: Ghost on Fri 21/06/2013 03:35:19
Quote from: Ascovel on Fri 21/06/2013 02:49:51
To be the Citizen Kane of something is to be the first widely recognized example of having fully used all the unique techniques of a particular medium to communicate something meaningful.
In that case, Maniac Mansion maybe? It did set the bar for pretty much all mouse-operated adventure games that followed. It wasn't the first graphical, or mouse-driven adventure but it did really push the envelope back in its day.
I'd agree Zork, Monkey Island, Maniac Mansion, King's Quest had the kind of influence on the adventure game genre that we'd want a Citizen Kane to have. However, none of those games did communicate anything particularly meaningful.
The importance of Kane: The Movie was not so much about pushing the envelope and inventing new techniques, as much as about using the most 'edgey' available techniques to tell a truly meaningful story, but in a quite a different way than mediums like literature or painting do. It's also not exactly about Kane being the absolute first, but about how universally it was recognized as showing what mature cinema can be. That's why people (i.e. journalists, indie developers) are currently trying to push the likes of Passage or Journey for the title of the Citizen Kane of gaming.
If you ask me, it's much too early to be looking for a Citizen Kane of adventure games or games in general. Perhaps a futile exercise altogether - it's mostly just people fighting for prestige.
Beneath a Steel Sky, probably. I personally think it's the Broken Sword series, but meheh.
So we're looking for a technologically groundbreaking, but also meaningful game. I LIKE to think that something like this already exists but I can't put a name on it. The big old games were mostly there for entertainment and, as Ascovel mentioned, failed to be deep/meaningful.
It could be Myst- defenitely used the CD (a new medium at its time) to the fullest, and HAD a deep plot (though mostly behind the scenes- MYST THE MOVIE would be Alan Rickmann pulling levers and muttering that they do nothing).
I don't really like Myst though, so I didn't say that.
QuoteMYST THE MOVIE would be Alan Rickmann pulling levers and muttering that they do nothing
That would be HILARIOUS. Also, you make a pretty good point. Myst wasn't that great, though, as you said. I saw the original boxed version (in mint condition) for like 2 quid in a charity shop and chose not to buy it. I guess that says it all.
Citizen Kane was also the pinnacle of craft in terms of film making.
Inherit the Earth and Eco Quest tried to have messages but kinda more childish .. Maybe theyre the Alladan of adventure games .. should nt post when tired
[imgzoom]http://s8.postimg.org/uxb2o6p1x/rickman2.png[/imgzoom]
Personally I'd say Myst is the Star Wars of adventure games. It looks good, and creates a great world. But you get tired of it after a while, and the plot falls apart when you look at it closely.
If you count action adventures I vote for Shen-Mue on Dreamcast. Other than that I find that RPGs have more Citizen Kane moments than P&C adventures (e.g. Chrono Trigger).
Grim Fandango
Hmmmmmmm. Citizen Kane: the apex of a genre AND a financial flop. I guess Grim Fandango scores on both counts.
I'm afraid I don't think video games have had a Citizen Kane, certainly not adventure games.
Perhaps that's because the impact of Kane is to do with its impact on film critics and theorists. People for whom the 'is it art' question hadn't been relevant since cinema was a sideshow attraction. I don't think there's a parallel for video games yet, as popular and mainstream as they are. There are no influential groups of intellectuals taking mainstream video games seriously in that way.
I'm not saying that an adventure game isn't or couldn't be equally good. I love Grim Fandango and Myst (well, Riven). It's a question of cultural impact and status. People who haven't seen Citizen Kane still know it's a great film. People who haven't played Grim Fandango, haven't heard of Grim Fandango.
A 'Citizen Kane' would have to be very critically popular and serve as an example not to others of its ilk but the entire medium. It certainly hasn't happened and so it's hard to say if it ever will given the state of the genre (Bless it). Gaming is still 1/4th the age of movies (Or 1/3rd at least) and has a long way to go.
Also, genres seem to blend much more easily in gaming compared to movies; the web video series Extra Credits make a good example between Call of Duty (An FPS shooter, but its multiplayer has RPG elements) and Mass Effect (An RPG, but it has shooting-based gameplay), so I think that makes it harder to say that 'adventure games' have reached a certain level.
I'd say when gaming has reached is played by an even larger share of the public (moreso than now and more than the Farmville crowd) then we can consider it.
'What is the "Citizen Kane" of gaming?' - now that is also an interesting question...
I think there should be a better reference point, as Citizen Kane was a poor film.
That said, I'll agree that we haven't yet had a game of that cultural significance.
Quote from: Surplusguy on Mon 01/07/2013 06:08:30
Personally I'd say Myst is the Star Wars of adventure games. It looks good, and creates a great world. But you get tired of it after a while, and the plot falls apart when you look at it closely.
I find it interesting that you link these two. They certainly have something in common - people who never went to see Sci-Fi films went to see Star Wars, and people who did not normally play computer games played Myst. I don't think this was simply because they both looked good - what they offered were new and fascinating worlds in which you could become immersed. Which was why Myst got me hooked on adventure games. It may not be the Citizen Kane of adventure games, but it's certainly a classic, albeit one that broke most of the rules.
Quote from: dactylopus on Fri 05/07/2013 17:12:21
I think there should be a better reference point, as Citizen Kane was a poor film.
Your mouth is open again. >:(
Quote from: Armageddon on Fri 05/07/2013 22:30:32
Quote from: dactylopus on Fri 05/07/2013 17:12:21
I think there should be a better reference point, as Citizen Kane was a poor film.
Your mouth is open again. >:(
Indeed, and truth is coming out.
Seriously, it's a matter of taste.
How about you focus on the part of my post where I answered the initial question. That'd be great.
Calling Citizen Kane a poor film as a matter of taste is like giving a 3 to a figure skater who's earned 10s from everyone else because you didn't like their choice of music.
Quote from: Eric on Sat 06/07/2013 17:34:58
Calling Citizen Kane a poor film as a matter of taste is like giving a 3 to a figure skater who's earned 10s from everyone else because you didn't like their choice of music.
I disagree with your statement, but I don't really want to argue about the subjective merits of art.
I didn't like Citizen Kane, can that be enough? Maybe I shouldn't have said anything.
Quote from: Ascovel on Fri 21/06/2013 02:49:51
To be the Citizen Kane of something is to be the first widely recognized example of having fully used all the unique techniques of a particular medium to communicate something meaningful.
Like things about human condition and stuff.
Obviously, Citizen Kane is not Citizen Kane of films according to your statement. Citizen Kane, ¡1941!, that's too recent. What about Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau's Der letzte Mann (The Last Laugh), that used plenty movie techniques, even some new techniques like unchained camera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unchained_camera_technique)? It was the film that change the way to do movies in Hollywood, William Fox gave to Murnau a blank check to do a movie like that for him. It was the seed of Golden Era in Hollywood, even Murnau filmed Sunrise in the States, another full modern master piece. Three lustrums before Citizen Kane. Citizen Kane was not an instant master piece, during a lot of years no one list about best films ever included Citizen Kane.
If I have to say two films that being fully modern films, changed the way of filming, I say Körkarlen -The Phantom Carriage- (Victor Sjöströn, 1921, "most important film in history" Ingmar Bergman said) and Der letzte Mann (F.W. Murnau, 1924). And I say no, there aren't yet adventure games like Körkarlen or Der letzte Mann. Adventure games reached 1910s movies in 1990s, we still wait for 1920s in 2010s.
Quote from: dactylopus on Sat 06/07/2013 17:46:14I didn't like Citizen Kane, can that be enough? Maybe I shouldn't have said anything.
I'd say there's a difference between "It didn't appeal to me," and "It was bad," and I think people far too often say the latter when they mean the former. You genuinely think it's a poor movie? The technical, cinematographic, narratological effects that Welles and especially Gregg Toland achieved in that film, were
poor? I guess it's not worth arguing about, and off-topic, but you don't just barge into a (digital) room, yell, "Citizen Kane was shit," and then expect that to be the end of the conversation.
Quote from: David_Holm on Sat 06/07/2013 18:51:58Sunrise in the States, another full modern master piece.
Sunrise is
amazing. I can't help but feel we've regressed in terms of making film art every time I see it.
Quote from: David_Holm on Sat 06/07/2013 18:51:58
Quote from: Ascovel on Fri 21/06/2013 02:49:51
To be the Citizen Kane of something is to be the first widely recognized example of having fully used all the unique techniques of a particular medium to communicate something meaningful.
Like things about human condition and stuff.
Obviously, Citizen Kane is not Citizen Kane of films according to your statement. Citizen Kane, ¡1941!, that's too recent. What about Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau's Der letzte Mann (The Last Laugh), that used plenty movie techniques, even some new techniques like unchained camera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unchained_camera_technique)? It was the film that change the way to do movies in Hollywood, William Fox gave to Murnau a blank check to do a movie like that for him. It was the seed of Golden Era in Hollywood, even Murnau filmed Sunrise in the States, another full modern master piece. Three lustrums before Citizen Kane. Citizen Kane was not an instant master piece, during a lot of years no one list about best films ever included Citizen Kane.
If I have to say two films that being fully modern films, changed the way of filming, I say Körkarlen -The Phantom Carriage- (Victor Sjöströn, 1921, "most important film in history" Ingmar Bergman said) and Der letzte Mann (F.W. Murnau, 1924). And I say no, there aren't yet adventure games like Körkarlen or Der letzte Mann. Adventure games reached 1910s movies in 1990s, we still wait for 1920s in 2010s.
Those movies may have pioneered a lot of filming techniques, but Kane actually used them to make a story better. 1941 isn't too late. Kane was also more widely known than the movies you mentioned which plays a large factor.
Quote from: David_Holm on Sat 06/07/2013 18:51:58
Quote from: Ascovel on Fri 21/06/2013 02:49:51
To be the Citizen Kane of something is to be the first widely recognized example of having fully used all the unique techniques of a particular medium to communicate something meaningful.
Like things about human condition and stuff.
Obviously, Citizen Kane is not Citizen Kane of films according to your statement. Citizen Kane, ¡1941!, that's too recent. What about Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau's Der letzte Mann (The Last Laugh), that used plenty movie techniques, even some new techniques like unchained camera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unchained_camera_technique)? It was the film that change the way to do movies in Hollywood, William Fox gave to Murnau a blank check to do a movie like that for him. It was the seed of Golden Era in Hollywood, even Murnau filmed Sunrise in the States, another full modern master piece. Three lustrums before Citizen Kane. Citizen Kane was not an instant master piece, during a lot of years no one list about best films ever included Citizen Kane.
If I have to say two films that being fully modern films, changed the way of filming, I say Körkarlen -The Phantom Carriage- (Victor Sjöströn, 1921, "most important film in history" Ingmar Bergman said) and Der letzte Mann (F.W. Murnau, 1924). And I say no, there aren't yet adventure games like Körkarlen or Der letzte Mann.
I love Der letzte Mann and agree with you about its importance. My favorite movie ever happens to be Dreyer's La passion de Jeanne d'Arc from 1928 which - just like Murnau's work - is by many considered the greatest achievement of the silent movie era.
However, Citizen Kane is more widely recognized as one of the earliest films where everything (photography, editing, storytelling, acting, meaning) came into place to achieve a profound artistic result. It's not my private idea to use it as an example of that. It's the American critics that managed to give it such status probably (and only a few decades after its controversial release). Also, it's a great film - no doubt about it.
QuoteAdventure games reached 1910s movies in 1990s, we still wait for 1920s in 2010s.
Comparing apples and oranges. The 1920s will never come again - for games or any other medium. Even films themselves are rarely used to express meaning the way they were before.
Quote from: Armageddon on Sat 06/07/2013 19:22:24Those movies may have pioneered a lot of filming techniques, but Kane actually used them to make a story better. 1941 isn't too late. Kane was also more widely known than the movies you mentioned which plays a large factor.
More widely known today, but not only for cinematographic reasons. Körkarlen or Der letzte Mann aren't so big because they were pioneers, actually, more of the techniques Sjöström and Murnau used, were used for years for other filmmakers.
Quote from: Ascovel on Sun 07/07/2013 08:17:31QuoteAdventure games reached 1910s movies in 1990s, we still wait for 1920s in 2010s.
Comparing apples and oranges. The 1920s will never come again - for games or any other medium. Even films themselves are rarely used to express meaning the way they were before. They are great because they got a deep understanding of storytelling through the moving image.
That is not the sense of the comparison, in the 1910s, movies are building the rudiments of the art, like adventure games in 1990s. In 1920s some movies were already very sophisticated, full master pieces (narrating through the moving image). Adventure games, today, don't reach that evolutionary stage (narrating through the puzzle).
Don't you think you're all expecting too much from adventure games? They don't tell stories like a movie. They can't, they never will and they don't have to. And if they did, they would have to lose most of their interactivity - they'd become a movie.
It's just a different medium. But there were several adventure games that grabbed me just as much as a good movie. Adventure games have evolved quite a lot from the first graphic/text adventures in the early 1980s, so I don't get why anyone would say they're still stuck in the beginning of their development.
I don't want adventure games be like movies, on the contrary, they are two different ways to tell stories. There are very good adventure games, of course, but they aren't yet as sophisticated as can be, they aren't as sophisticated as movies was in the 1920s, that's my point.
Quote from: David_Holm on Sun 07/07/2013 10:38:07
That is not the sense of the comparison, in the 1910s, movies are building the rudiments of the art, like adventure games in 1990s. In 1920s some movies were already very sophisticated, full master pieces (narrating through the moving image). Adventure games, today, don't reach that evolutionary stage (narrating through the puzzle).
But you see I find this comparison terribly unclear and subjective, as well as referring to events that have yet to come to pass (if they ever will).
For example, did film follow the same evolution as did painting or architecture? Did it start from scratch in terms of shaping a new art form?
Is it the goal of paintings to tell stories? How many of them do that compared to books of fiction or movies?
Can architecture tell stories?
Are later era productions in any media always more sophisticated than what was created before?
I can't assign any specific meaning to your movie history 1920's period in respect to games - that's my point. For all I know adventure games might not even evolve at all in any way any more. In my opinion right now games are limited in what they can be in part because of how much they try to be like movies and how much they are compared to them.
I'm lost, the topic is "What is adventure games "Citizen Kane" moment?", so I think the comparison movies-adventure games doesn't start in my message.
Movies and adventure games are ways of storytelling very young in human art, and as you tell, they don't start from scratch. Movies took some elements of theater, painting or photography, as well adventure games did. But, that's not the question. In movies, movie makers have to tell that story, to communicate that sensations, using the image in movement. So they had to experiment with several elements, and in a point (that I think, they reach in 1920s) they got an own cinematographic language. Adventure games have to tell the story, to communicate the sensations, using the puzzle. Late 1980s and 1990s, they experiment with puzzle, and indeed they got progress, but then, before adventure games got a full developing of its own language (puzzle), the experimentation with puzzle stopped. We almost didn't advance in that direction during the last decade, so we haven't finish that venture as the cinematographie did in 1920s. So, we need to come back to the exploration of the puzzle for reaching that, or if you prefer, for reaching Citizen Kane moment.
If you are talking about adventure games not telling a story then I must put forward Heavy Rain. It's pretty damn close to blending the two mediums successfully.
That being said, my favorite film is Blade Runner, so my vote goes to the Blade Runner adventure game ;)
We're not talking about how well adventure games can mirror movies, we're talking about the game that changed games from kids toys to real art.
Quote from: Armageddon on Mon 08/07/2013 04:03:54
We're not talking about how well adventure games can mirror movies, we're talking about the game that changed games from kids toys to real art.
Is that what Citizen Kane is supposed to have done?
In that case, there have been many, and it is difficult to pinpoint the actual game that was the turning point.
Quote from: Ascovel on Sun 07/07/2013 13:05:11For example, did film follow the same evolution as did painting or architecture? Did it start from scratch in terms of shaping a new art form?
A case could be made for "early silent film with stationary cameras" = "text adventures."
I am going to say Myst.
I think there's a case to be made that The Longest Journey and Dreamfall approach the medium with the greatest maturity, especially in their portrayal of women. Both games contain female player characters who are strong without needing to appropriate masculine traits. These women are not sexualised either. Both games have the PC start in their pants but neither scene feels cheap, titillating or sexualised... they are just women in pants. (I would also argue that both scenes are noticeably symbolic and draw parallels between the two characters in their "waking up" stage).
I wouldn't go as far as to say they were the Citizen Kane of adventure games, since i don't believe such a thing yet exists, but they are certainly the most 'adult' games on offer.
How about I just create a Citizen Kane adventure game?
LOOK at ROSEBUD
SMASH the ROOM
The truth is, there is no Citizen Kane of adventure games, or video games at all. There never will be, and people should stop chasing it. Games have the power to create their own defining masterwork, but this is all just part of a mindless, misguided trend to compare games to films, because no one has any confidence in the medium at all nowadays.
I do think Grim Fandango is a masterwork, but it's not a Citizen Kane. That's stupid.
Quote from: Armageddon on Fri 21/06/2013 01:14:22
It seems like we have a lot of them. (http://thecitizenkaneofvideogames.tumblr.com/) But what adventure game can be our Citizen Kane?
SO, to be clear, we are talking about/looking for an adventure game that is really old and over-rated? That is at its last moments of cultural applicability, and is technically outdated?
What might be a better question is, what is the Shawshank Redemption of adventure games. Which I would argue is the Citizen Kane of my generation. I doubt that that any of my similarly aged friends, except for myself, have watched Citizen Kane. I doubt that most of my generation have ever even heard of it.
I'm pretty sure a lot of people have heard of it. Also I'd say Braid really showed what games were capable of just through play and brought it into it's own medium of art.
According to Extra Credits, the Walking Dead games have done something truly amazing for the genre. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qizgjT4UXa4) Good episode, though I agree that the 'dead genre' label isn't really valid.
I really did not like the Walking Dead game, it was so dumbed down it wasn't even point and click, just select your dialogue option and watch the story.
I'm confused about The Walking Dead. I just played it for the first time and finished it yesterday, and while it had an engaging and engrossing story and you grew a connection with the little girl and all...there wasn't much game in there. An interactive movie with quicktime events. While it is purely for the story purposes I enjoyed it, if you stripped out all the "game" from it, it would definitely suffer.
Does it really count as an adventure game?
I'm not sure asking "What is the Citizen Kane of adventure games" is comparing them to movies, more like trying to find an equivalent in a different genre. The problem as I see it (from this thread, even) the whole idea of "Citizen Kane" and what exactly it represents to movies seems to be quite vague and undefined, so it would be difficult to apply them to anything else.
If you're talking about initiators, then you have Colossal Cave/Zork/Mystery House/King's Quest/Maniac Mansion. If you're talking about something so famous it sort of defines the genre, maybe Monkey Island or the King's Quest series. If you're talking about innovative or envelope pushing stuff, maybe Loom or Myst or even the Walking Dead.
Quote from: Magic on Sun 14/07/2013 17:13:26
How about I just create a Citizen Kane adventure game?
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iSwCsgcQqEM/S2xQz8ido3I/AAAAAAAAAXk/LFlurnqSYeA/s400/city+boxes)
Pixel hunt!
Games where there are HUGE patches of areas you can not walk on without your character floating and getting stuck on the scenery, like the Walking Dead, aren't adventure games. There's a part where you have to sidle along a police car, and you can't even go backwards! OR GO BACK BEHIND THE POLICE CAR! NO! JUST NOOOO!