What is your favourite point 'n' click interface?

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I've always liked the idea of parsers but never the implementation.  Due to time and money constraints, there has yet to been a truly humanistic parser in any game I'm aware of, where each character is unique and doesn't make generic repetitive responses to things they don't know/are unable to learn and react later on to things you have said in a meaningful way.  The severely limited nature of parsers conflicting with the artificial sense that you have more 'control' just ruins the whole thing for me, especially when I type a common word to perform an action and it's ignored or I get the usual 'I don't understand' bullshit. 

[Gilbert]

Well, it's the same with point and click interfaces. There are a lot of p&c games with only very limited generic responses. The problem with p&c is, most of the games could be completed just by trial-and-error clicking and in order to lengthen the games or make them harder they just threw in terrible pixel hunting or mind-teasing puzzles that had no connection to the story (not that pixel hunting and puzzles aren't always good, but they're good only if they're not overdone).

The main issue here is, as you mentioned already, the implementation, which is up to the designers. It's extremely difficult to develop parser games, as it's quite hard to make balanced and reasonably smart responses due to the complexity of the possible input (maybe due to limited computing power and memory at that time too), but that doesn't mean it cannot be done properly, provided the designers have the patient and talent. On the other hand, while it's easier to design definitive responses in p&c games many designers still fail to implement the system well, like even in many commercial games, there are only one or two hotspot in some rooms making them empty and boring (mainly due to laziness IMO). AQ was a bit overdone in its extremely comprehensive responses though (sorry Mills ).

So, games made with either form of interface could be both good, provided the designers have put enough effort in them.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Well you're forgetting the difference between parsers and 'choose an option': the fact that parsers lull you into a totally false sense of freedom with respect to replies, while even the simplest 'choose an option' interface lets you know what you can talk about at any given time.  This greatly decreases frustration even if it feels a bit limiting.  At least I'm not wasting 10 minutes typing to get something approaching the response I was after.

[Gilbert]

Well, that actually depends on one's own taste (as the topic of this thread suggests, 'your favourite' sort of things). Everyone can agree or disagree with whether one interface is good or not, as long as it's mainly one's own preference, so I was just saying that I like the parser, not necessarily implying that everyone will find it good. In fact, as I mentioned I was actually not good at playing parser games but I still like it as it provides a form of immersion that hardly many p&c games would provide.
IMO there's nothing wrong with 'totally false sense of freedom', and we all know that whatever you can do are supposed to be programmed into the game (so, it's not AI or free roaming games or whatever which I don't like in general), but it does feel more like the player is involved. With choosable options there're still many occasions that made me feel 'Why option x isn't here? Why can't I do this?'. There's nothing wrong with either form of interfaces themselves. Often times it's just a choice in presentation so hopefully it will give the player an intended feeling on the gameplay.
For the 'wasting 10 minutes typing to get something" thingie I think we have mentioned about it already when we talked about the 'guess-the-word' problem.

[Stupot]

One of the good things about Tunguska is the 'search scene' icon.  I've come across it in a few games but I wish more games would implement it.  When you click on the icon, the location of every clickable item in the scene is highlighted with a little magnifying glass.  This eliminates pixel-hunting and saves having to sweep your cursor all over the place looking for something to click on.  Very handy.

[Radiant]

I've always liked the idea of parsers but never the implementation.

I can recommend several games by Infocom, as well as by Legend Entertainment. They're one of the few companies that actually developed a good text parser. Sierra's parser can only rarely handle more complex input than "<verb> <noun>", whereas Infocom can deal with "eat all fruits except the strawberry, then put it in the large box".

[Snarky]

Infocom can deal with "eat all fruits except the strawberry, then put it in the large box".

Whether it's a good idea to make a game that relies on actions like that is a different question...

[blueskirt]

Infocom can deal with "eat all fruits except the strawberry, then put it in the large box".

Whether it's a good idea to make a game that relies on actions like that is a different question...

Awwww... 

* blueskirt puts Strawberry Quest: The Search For A Large Box on indefinite hold

[Laukku]

I'm not sure, but is ProgZmax talking about parsers in conversations? He mentions things like "what you can talk about at any given time" and "where each character is unique and doesn't make generic repetitive responses to things they don't know/are unable to learn and react later on to things you have said in a meaningful way".

[Dualnames]

With all the respect to ProgZ, but indeed options are less frustrating, but you're wrong on parsers. If they;re done properly it's like a heaven sent gift. We're not talking about the sense of freedom only, but the immersion values boost to tremendous, replay value increases. It's a thing that requires good design and good beta-testing. Concerning Sierra's parsers I agree, they kind of sucked in a way. Infocom did it really good at some games.

[tassieboy]

I'm a fan of the Sierra icon bar.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

If I'm wrong prove it, don't just make a wild claim.  I have yet to use a parser (infocom included) that wasn't a gussied up exercise in frustration with a few moments of 'that's neat'.  Point me to the best parser game you know of and I will be sure to try it, but nothing I have said is 'untrue', leaving burden of proof on you to provide me with a fleshed out parser that realizes its potential instead of only the potential of what the game author cared about/had time for (like ignoring various synonyms and basic sentences and/or concepts that are in common usage).  Do this and I'll take your statements more seriously, Dualnames.  Otherwise it's just 'you're wrong because I say so' and that means nothing to me but words.

[Igor Hardy]

If I'm wrong prove it, don't just make a wild claim.  I have yet to use a parser (infocom included) that wasn't a gussied up exercise in frustration with a few moments of 'that's neat'.  Point me to the best parser game you know of and I will be sure to try it, but nothing I have said is 'untrue', leaving burden of proof on you to provide me with a fleshed out parser that realizes its potential instead of only the potential of what the game author cared about/had time for (like ignoring various synonyms and basic sentences and/or concepts that are in common usage).  Do this and I'll take your statements more seriously, Dualnames.  Otherwise it's just 'you're wrong because I say so' and that means nothing to me but words.

I don't play too many interactive fiction games, but here's a good, short one that I found delightful to play, having a very robust parser, and very lifelike NPCs: Lost Pig

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I've seen Lost Pig before and it's cute in a way, but it doesn't take long to find an example of what I'm talking about:

Spoiler

when faced with the rustling in the northeast bush, your options are limited to burning down the forest, trudging ahead (and falling through the pit) or not going that way.  My option was, at first, to move aside the bushes (Grunk doesn't understand), then to step around the bushes( Grunk doesn't understand) then to tread lightly (Grunk doesn't understand) then to eat the bush (oddly it says he picks up the forest and says he can't carry it).  Basically it hedges me into a very very narrow solution of falling down the hole (unless I missed a synonym it recognizes).  Also, while the game understands 'save' it does not understand 'load' (but it knows what restore is).  It's basic synonyms like this that are missing from parsers that provide an unnecessary added layer of abstraction and frustration to the experience.

[close]

[Dualnames]

If I'm wrong prove it, don't just make a wild claim.  I have yet to use a parser (infocom included) that wasn't a gussied up exercise in frustration with a few moments of 'that's neat'.  Point me to the best parser game you know of and I will be sure to try it, but nothing I have said is 'untrue', leaving burden of proof on you to provide me with a fleshed out parser that realizes its potential instead of only the potential of what the game author cared about/had time for (like ignoring various synonyms and basic sentences and/or concepts that are in common usage).  Do this and I'll take your statements more seriously, Dualnames.  Otherwise it's just 'you're wrong because I say so' and that means nothing to me but words.

Here's one to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatea_(computer_game)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photopia

[EnoRed]

I like the overall simplicity of the system Telltale uses in their Sam & Max and Strong Bad games; left click to move and interact in whatever way is appropriate for the object, right click to examine, inventory opens up with the click of a button at the top of the screen. It makes it a lot less annoying having to guess what particular verb you need to use in certain situations. It saves a lot of space too, considering all the near-useless verbs that early Lucasarts games loaded half the bottom of the screen with. I'm certain there had to be games that had the "push" and "pull verbs" where you never actually used them...

If we can mention interfaces we disliked, I have to say the The Secret of Monkey Island SE annoyed me to no end. Having to press a button to open up the inventory and verb menu felt like a step back from the original game, which just boggles the mind. I can only imagine they must've thought something like: "Hey, you know how we have all the verbs and the inventory at the bottom of the screen where they're easy to see and click on? They need to go! We need more space to show off all the pretty pictures we've drawn."

[Stupot]

I like the overall simplicity of the system Telltale uses in their Sam & Max and Strong Bad games.

I haven't played these titles yet, but I've played Tales of Monkey Island, and I must say I don't much like the system they've got going there.  To walk, you have to hold the left mouse button down and drag the cursor in the direction you want Guybrush to go (or just use the arrow keys, which is ten times easier and I can't imagine anyone doing it the other way).

To open the inventory you have to click on the right hand side of the screen and wait for the inevntory scroll to appear with a rather repetetive and time-consuming animation.  And to make things worse, this game is guilty of what I mentioned in an above post.  Unselecting things every time you use it.  So if you want to try an item of several things, you have to keep re-selecting it, which means opening up the clunky inventory scroll again (and of course closing it aswell, which is equally as time-consuming).

This is all very petty of course.  I'm enjoying ToMI and will get round to finishing the series, but there is one feature of the interface which really gets on my nerves, and then I'll stop moaning:

Combining items!  I'm assuming many of you have played this game.  What did you think?  If one thing is almost universal in adventure games, it is the method of combining items... you select one item, and with it selected you click on another item, right?... Wrong...  in ToMI, you have you select one item, drag it to a special 'combine' window, then select the second item, and drag that to the second 'combine' window, and then finally, if you ave any energy left, click on a special 'combine' button.  Which is hella annoying if you're a bit stuck and want to try combining several items to see if anything happens.

So yeh, moral of the story... don't copy Tales o' Monkey Island :-P

[Anian]

Yeah, while new Sam&Max has a "simple" interface (left mouse default function (talk to character, move to ground, pick object up) and right mouse descripition), I think it seemed a bit to simplified cause there wasn't a lot to interact with in some places. Overall in principle though, I think it was a clean and simple solution, especially for a comedy.
Broken sword 1/2 also had a rather simple mouse command system and it too was rather stingy on things to interact with at times but the graphics were full of details so I didn't mind it as much as in simplified 3d world of Telltales' Sam&Max. Plus the story was engaging and there were some moments where you had to do something quickly or you'd die, so it helped in reaction time.

I agree with you, Stupot, in ToMI, it's like they went a step back (in Special SoMI it seemed like they went a step back from the old interface as well by some extent). That combining was interesting, although they added more steps to do something, which is just ilogical from design standpoint. The "move while dragging a mouse" is just awful, more than often Guybrush didn't go where I wanted him to go and sometimes I couldn't even get him to move, thank god for the arrow keys (which I didn't mind even that much in Grim Fandango because it was optimized and I got used to it by the end of the 1st chapter).

Lots of games today offer mouse or keyboard interface, but lots make it so it's easier when you use a combination of the two. Like in ToMI it was easier to press a button for use, look, pick up etc. than to move my mouse around (especially when working in inventory).

[Chicky]

Gotta say, the 'modern' incarnation of the point+click interface on the iPhone is nasty. BASS is fairly playable without becoming too annoying but when your gestures are not recognised until the second or third attempt it really alienates you from the virtual world you are playing. The MI:SE for iPhone is shite to the point where i can no longer play it, the hi-res bg's actually look better on the iPhone but the original graphics are stretched creating a tonne of double pixels. Also that bloody mouse curser that needs to be dragged around the screen is beyond me!

[Igor Hardy]

Yeah, while new Sam&Max has a "simple" interface (left mouse default function (talk to character, move to ground, pick object up, and right mouse descripition)

Not true. The new Sam & Max games have a one-button interface - the left mouse button does everything.