What needs to evolve?

[Hollister Man]

Okay, sometimes I come off sounding like I hate FPS.  I loved Halo to tell the truth.  I thought it had a decent story, it just took time to develop the character of a cloned, cybernetic soldier.

Its old cliche, but a great game doesn't have to be propped up by spectacular graphics

How many hours were spent on 'new' arcade games like Centipede, Qbert, PacMan by players?  The remakes of these games look...like pale comparisons to the original, because there was no need to add spiffy graphics.  They were what they were.

I'd love to see beautiful graphics on par with Prince of Egypt or Atlantis, in an adventure game, but would it be any better than KQ6 or FoA or Apprentice?  American, non-HD television is less than 640x480, AFAIK, but I've never complained about the resolution of anything on there.  Of course, at 21 y.o, I watch the Flintstones and He-Man and love them as much as most kids love Spongebob.

I think, as someone else said, that the biggest and best step adventure games could make is the Holodeck!  The reason I love the KQ games in particular is that they immerse me in a world I like.  That's why I read Tolkien!  If I could take part, even for a short time, in that world, I would.  I love rennaisance fairs too (I make Maille armor)  Being able to feel heroic, in the theatrical sense, in a world where the lines between right and wrong are far from clear, is an amazing experience.  That's why I like adventure games, whereas I end up feeling twitchy, and even a little sick, after I play FPS games.  I'm just not an adrenaline junky, I'd rather a game make me *feel* something, emotionally.  IRL, I dislike guns, because they detatch violence from force (whether used on animals or people or targets).  You want to kill or maim something, point and click.  I guess I'm the kind of person who feels that you should have to work for things.  You want to kill or maim something?  Pick up a sharp object and do it yourself.

I saw an interesting show about the shootout at the OK Corral.  They demonstrated that the physical response to a paintball shootout was similar to that of a real shootout.  I wonder if the FPS tendency to thrive is similar, it provides the adrenaline rush of battle without the danger?

That's funny that die-hard fans of the FPS genre sometimes won't even try the games that spawned them all.  Wolfenstein, Doom, they were just as much FPS, but the graphics weren't whiz-bang.  What should that matter?  The reactions should be the same?  Weird...

Maybe the problem is lack of imagination.  When deprived of television in living color, perfectly realistic renditions of artificial worlds, some people live in a very gray world.  Their minds aren't trained to look beyond what's in front of them and take the trouble to create that world in their *mind*.  Look how many kids hate reading!  I read about a study that showed that children who feed their minds on hours of TV, play with computerized and animated toys (furbies, Rescue Heroes, etc.) and have too many toys, their imaginations are stunted and they're actually incapable of entertaining themselves in the absence of these sensory inputs.  I've got a buddy who hates reading books because they're too descriptive, he doesn't want to read about *how* beautiful the girl was, or what shade of blue the water was.  I, on the other hand, find that to be when I enjoy the book even more, when I begin to feel emotions that the writer wanted to express through his/her descriptions.

Wow, sorry... laters.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

The real question is... do we really WANT adventure games to be mainstream?

[esper]

Why not? If adventure games were what everyone was playing, it would mean more people were using their brains and less people were mindlessly mashing buttons with the hopes of blowing things up.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

I think the genre IS evolving, in its way. Out of necessity (the so-called "death" of the genre) some aspects of it have been focused on, experimented with. Syberia was an experiment on storytelling (and I quite liked it, though I seem to be minority). Longest Journey was an experiment on traditional gameplay with a humongous story, to see how well it held up. The gameplay proved to hold very well throughout the whole game. Broken Sword 3 was remarkable - it felt like a traditional point and click game despite the great 3d visuals that made it look a bit tomb-raiderish. And there have been games like Quiet Weekend in Capri, or Aura - basically Myst clones that are plain puzzle-games. They also have an audience.

ALso, bits of adventure have glued themselves on other games to form hybrids. Beyond Good and Evil. System Shock. ANd, I'm told, Half-Life, in a way, though I haven't played it.

I don't know what NEEDS to evolve, but I think it is already evolving. I'm glad to play the experiments until they get there.

[Raggit]

...their imaginations are stunted and they're actually incapable of entertaining themselves in the absence of these sensory inputs.Ã, 

I've heard about those studies that say kids who watch too much TV and play to many games have stunted imaginations.  What I want to know is, is that the same for ALL audio/visual media, all just the media that hasn't had much effort or care put into it?

[ManicMatt]

The real question is... do we really WANT adventure games to be mainstream?

indeed, if it went mainstream EA would start making "FIFA - Rooney's adventure", "james Bond - I forgot my gun", and "need for weed."

[Ginny]

I think you have a point there - if adventure games were popular games that all companies wanted to produce, we'd have many bad or mediocre quality games. Whereas right now, it's so hard to pitch an adventure game or produce one yourself all the way, that most games will only be released if they are good.

Otherwise, I think adventures don't so much need to change, but they need to take advantage of the tools we have now, not just graphics wise, just for the sake of having 3d or something, but actually utilize the new technology to improve gameplay, or perhaps just make it different. If a game's story doesn't require any such new gameplay, it doesnt matter if it's in 2d or 3d. I'm all for graphics for the sake of story, and for the sake of immersion.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

Why not? If adventure games were what everyone was playing, it would mean more people were using their brains and less people were mindlessly mashing buttons with the hopes of blowing things up.

The thing is, our society is currently one in which using one's brain is not as encouraged as watching things blow up, or acquiring lots of money, or looking good, etc. The types of media enjoyed by the mainstream are more of a reflection of the interests and values of a society as a whole than anything. Thus, I'm thinking that if the world changed so that everyone (and not just "smart people") were encouraged to use their brains in all aspects of life, then adventure games would be more popular, and the world would be a much better place.

If we leave society as it is now, the only way adventure games would become mainstream would be if they became more like the more popular genres. To some extent, this is already happening.

[MillsJROSS]

I strongly disagree that we assume that because people aren't playing adventure games that they're not using their brains. How very snobbish of us to say that people who don't enjoy our games aren't intelligent and don't use their brains. I am an avid reader, and perhaps kids aren't able to stimulate their own imaginations as much...but the truth of the matter is that they don't need to stimulate their imaginations as much. I mean it's handed to them, and why shouldn't they be able to use what is placed in front of them. So what if they decide to read or not. Who's to say that a book stretches the mind more than a movie or a show can. Kids don't need to wrap their minds around things around sensory details because we are now capable of producing those details ourselves. I seriously think that television has the capabilities of being just at intelligent as books. And while not all shows are mind blowing and intellectual, the same can be said of many books, which consequently are under the same obligations to appeal to the public or not be published. And tv has influenced the publics viewpoints on poignant matters such as sexism and racism, and has in many ways influenced a more open minded public.

I've known several people who play adventure games that I don't consider intelligent. So I think we need to get off our high horse of intelligence and try to focus on something better. Entertainment! Games should focus on entertaining the consumer, and whether we like it or not, FPS's appeal to people more on an entertainment level than Adventure Games. They allow people to get their aggressions out. They step into the characters realm and if they have a problem they can handle it with precise aiming or a happy trigger button. Instant gratification. Adventure games are a little more difficult. You step away from your world and your own problems only to go into someone else world and their problems. Getting rid of their problems is a little more difficult, and most people would rather there be a simple solution to everything...which is generally opposite of real life. Games are a way to step outside one's own life and have an enjoyable experience. What I'm getting at is Adventure Games don't need to be intelligent to appea to people. They should be well written, yes. Have an interesting or intriguing plot, yes. Have likeable characters that develope as the game progresses, yes. Most of all the game has to be fun. And fun can be had by the intellect as well as the average joe.

So if anything adventure games need to evolve to be entertaining to more than just the intellect. Sorry if I ranted a bit.

-MillsJROSS

[MrColossal]

Marry me Mills.

[Hollister Man]

I didn't say unintelligent, did I?  (no sarcasm intended here)  I didn't mean that, if I did.  Example, my step-foster-adopted-half-nephew-or-something who I call my brother.  He's 11, he's got the vocabulary of a high-schooler, and keeps up with his classmates quite well.  What disturbed me was that he wasn't able to tell me a story of his own imagining at all.  He'd always end up telling me someone else's story, or the story of a game he played. 

[Nikolas]

Oh come on, with so muchg info and input these kids (and us) get what did you expect? And anyway creating is something very very difficult to do and do just a tad originaly. I find that kids are much smarter than my generation and of course my generation smarter than the generation before me and so on... This is how it goes.

I'm going to talk, just a little bit about music, cause I can't find another example:

Music has two sides: The performance and the composing. Guess what: 3% of the musicians are composers. The rest are performers (especially in classical music).

Creating and imagining are not for the lot.

And I agree completly with Mills.

[Ginny]

I couldn't agree more, Mills, I don't see adventures as games that are different from other genres because they appeal to the human intellect, but rather because they entertain in another way. I don't want to try defining adventure games, to every rule I might make up there might be an exception. Suffice to say that I play adventure games for the story, to put myself into another world.
Although some non adventure games (not talking about hybrids) have stories, the games themselves and the gameplay (in adventure's case, puzzles etc) aren't there solely to advance the story. That's what I consider adventure gameplay, playing through a story, having an effect on the outcome (or seeming to have an effect on it), and if that calls for some action sequences or some "different" gameplay, then I'm cool with it.
The first step, I guess, is to understand why we play adventure games (all the different reasons) and why other people don't.

I too have been met with confused faces when I told someone about what adventure games are and how they are played, or offered someone to play. People don't seem to get what is "gamey" about these games, and I believe this is due simply to prejudice, because these games aren't mainsteam, a game is defined as something that has some sort of action in it, and people are reluctant to try anything else, sometimes. It's not too different with music and films. I know that some people won't even try to watch a film, just because it's old, or because the name sounds boring, or it's not the genre they usually watch. Although tastes can be argued here, it's this kind of stubbornness that can drive me nuts. I try to be as open as I can to things I haven't tried, be it games, films, whatever.

Btw, an adventure game in virtual reality would be..  *drool*

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

"Using one's brain" is not necessarily synonymous with "being intelligent". (Here, I'm assuming that intelligence means having a high IQ... though the whole debate about the problems of IQ testing is a different story.) Many people are intelligent but choose to partake in leisure activities that do not involve any kind of thinking whatsoever. On the other hand, a person who enjoys learning new things and solving puzzles does not necessarily have a high IQ.

The fact remains that the gameplay in adventure games actually is more focused on "using one's brain", whereas most mainstream games tend to involve quick reflexes. (To be more accurate, though, it involves using a different part of the brain, but still, it's obvious that it's more of an instinctual thing than a logical thing.) If you prefer one genre to another, it does not make you any more or less intelligent. There's no need to be insulted, really...

[TheYak]

I've known several people who play adventure games that I don't consider intelligent.

*Yak sheepishly raises his hand*

Actually, it's a very valid point.  Intelligence itself has nothing to do with it.  Quite often people who regularly play adventure and puzzle games like to spend some time with an FPS or platformer for awhile.  Occasionally, it's nice to spend leisure time with something that doesn't demand anything of you except for muscle memory and reflexes. 

I think it's also the lack of an involving story that makes me turn to some more mainstream games on occasion.  The progress of story-telling is often so slow in adventures that it feels like you're pixel-hunting for new sentences in the narrative. 

Part of the lull in creativity, I think is due to this particular era.  Until there's some down-time on the technology front, or a point at which life in general becomes a bit less hectic, we're unlikely to encounter a renaissance of ingenuity.

[MillsJROSS]

There's no need to be insulted, really...

First off, I haven't been insulted. My post was more of a rant, and while yes your post might have contributed to my rant, it wasn't specifically targeted at you or anybody. It's just a trend of thought I've found many adventure gamers have, including myself at times. Your absolutely correct, "using one's brain" doesn't necessarily coincide with intelligence. However, I do not think society has been pushing people to not use their brain power. It's alright for people to like watching violence and explosions. It's okay for people to acquire money and look good. These are entertaining!

I do not think that all FPS's are mindless drivel, however. They do require using your brain. Some of them are simple, shoot and kill. Others require you to know strategy. How do you get around the one hundred or so guys trying to kill you? It takes a strategy of picking people out, and covering oneself. You can't just go in, guns ablazing, and expect to remain alive. You have to learn how to continue to move and fire your weapon in a fluid way. There are constant strategies that you have to develop over time. The difference between adventure games and FPS, isn't using one's brain. It's that FPS's puzzle's are mostly physical, and are generally reflex based and repeated several times. And then there are strategy games like Warcraft, that sell very well.

I do not agree that society is pushing people to not use their brains, insofar, as gaming is concerned. In all media's there is mindless drivel...yes. There is also some thought provoking concepts in all media, and in all genre's of the gaming market.

-MillsJROSS

[MrColossal]

"I think it's also the lack of an involving story that makes me turn to some more mainstream games on occasion. Ã, The progress of story-telling is often so slow in adventures that it feels like you're pixel-hunting for new sentences in the narrative."

This also sums me up pretty well...

If I go back and play adventure games that I played when I was a kid I hate hate hate the majority of the puzzles. They are on the whole so stupid. This may be just me but the logic behind the puzzles aren't logical in any sense.

"Why the hell would that work?"

"Why the hell should I even think of that?"

and the ever popular:

"Why the hell?"

These words fall from my lips so often when I tried replaying adventure games and newer adventure/AGS games.

"So why do I continue to think that adventure games are awesome if you hate one of their defining features?" you ask? Well... Because it's an amazing way to develope/invent/create/design a world and allow people to live in it without wanting to blow it up.

[ManicMatt]

Yeah Mills, some FPS games do require brain power!

I'm thinking though more along the lines of Deus Ex, where you would think logically about how to, say.. deactivate an electric trip wire that sets off an explosion upon impact:

Shoot it from afar?

Disable it by tapping into a nearby computer?

Find a ventilation shaft that goes around it?

Chuck an object at it to set it off?

Put a crate next to it and jump over the tripwire?

And postal 2 had...uhhh... fetching milk?

[Helm]

it's so hard to pitch an adventure game or produce one yourself all the way, that most games will only be released if they are good.

Wrong. I haven't played a decent adventure game in years. In fact, that it is so difficult to put out an adventure game nowdays leads to stilted design, constructed around the 'please the old school adventure gamers' mentality, just so the game will at least sell to it's target audience.

Or the other way, the game will try to cross-over and you get 3d pushing of crates.

[Antipode]

Going back even farther: what is an adventure game?  What elements constitute the genre and what does the phrase "adventure game" immediately evoke in us "old-school" players?

Is it the "USE A on B to get C" puzzles?  Plenty of role-playing games and shooters have those.  Or maybe the "point-and-click" actually defines the experience for some people.

The line between adventure and RPG is a little blurry, too.  Take the character sheet and experience points out of a role-playing game and the main plot would look something like an adventure game of old.  Is that what the genre has evolved into?

Myst: End of Ages is a good example of attempted evolution.  Gorgeous graphics, in 3D even, and puzzles upon puzzles, with a FPS style of movement (almost).  If you added an inventory and some interaction options to a game like that, would it be suitable for more adventure-styled titles?  And if that's so, what have we been doing in games like Deus Ex or even the intro to Half-Life?  Would a 3D first-person adventure game really be all that bad?

The two defining factors for me personally are games is a strong story and an immersion to make me feel like the things I'm doing matter.  That's one reason I play FPS games over most adventure titles, but claim adventures as my favourite genre; except for Myst, I feel removed from my "character", I'm affecting the game through tin cans on a string.