I'm not an artist, and I tend to draw things out of proportion. 3D rendering art should make perspective easier when you rotate around the world. Instead of drawing my backgrounds in 2D (and have all the proportions wrong!), I thought using a 3D graphic would be easier with nicer results.
Instead of using Gmax, anyone knows of a software or level editor that can be used to create rooms or worlds quickly? After that, screen captures can be taken and used as background for AGS games.
I'm gonna explore using Google Sketchup. Any other suggestions?
Thanks. ;)
I only know of Blender (http://www.blender.org/), not sure how easy it is or how it works or if it does what you want.
Personally I dislike 3D as the majority of it looks so amateur I'd rather see a bad MSPAINT background. Another solution might be to make the backgrounds 3D and use it as nothing more than a perspective and lighting reference while you draw your 2D backgrounds.
I use Blender3D quite frequently. It's tricky to get to grips with if you've never used a 3D programme before, so it probably wouldn't suit your purpose. I hear there are packages that let you alter and design levels for existing fps games, that might be a more achievable goal.
I would say, however that working in 3D can be much more complex than working in 2D. If you struggle to draw using traditional methods you will probably struggle in 3D. I doubt you'll find a capable 3D artist who isn't also a capable 2D artist.
I'd concentrate on the basics if I were you and look at games like Pleurghburg and Duty and Beyond that use very simple, very apparently 2D graphics. The critics lounge can be very helpful if you want advice and suggestions on how to improve your technique. If you struggle with perspective I think simplifying rather than complicating is likely to produce better results.
Finally, If you aren't aware of the principles of one-point and two-point perspective, I'd look them up straigt away!
well i used 3ds max, but i think to achieve nice vector propotions for backgrounds you could use corel draw too.. it has this tool to make a 2d object has depth in it... (man i love to create room blueprints/skeletons with it to achieve real or cartoony perspective) i forgot the name, but it one of the essential tools of corel draw.
Thank you everyone.
Once again it is proven that there is no shortcut to greatness. My long term solution is to be skilled in graphics, else I'd better be good in putting together a good team.
Just a sharing. I've explored Google Sketchup a little and I like its simplicity of use. It is true that a 3D artist is usually a good 2D artist himself (or herself). It's my fundamental that needs working on. And like you said, if perspective is my problem, I'd better start reading up and practicing on it!
Thank you again. I hope to complete a game and share with you all.
Best regards.
if you own a copy of it The Sims 2 could be used to design rooms which you can then paint over.
What you could do, is create a bare room in 3D, and the paint over that in 2D, to get the correct perspectives. I highly recommend that method.
BOYD's idea is also a good one. For external scenes (maybe for cutscenes), you could even use SimCity. :)
Great ideas! :) But alas, I do not own any of those games. :-\
Quote from: Sydrik on Sat 20/09/2008 15:20:45
It is true that a 3D artist is usually a good 2D artist himself (or herself).
I have no 2D skills. I get by.
I have Vue 6 which is expensive. I can make good backgrounds with it, but i am afraid i cannot script in AGS. :'( :'( :'(
hi
Check wings 3d. Its easy to use and learn modeler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wings_3D
Thank you all! Wonderful feedback.
I had tried Gmax before but what's really frustrating is that it is 'too powerful' for me. Too many features, too many fields, I just want a simple interface. I really had lots of trouble with textures and materials. Wings looks good. I should give it a try.
Otherwise, what do you guys normally use for 2D art? Is using a Tablet PC very important? Because if I were to draw and scan, my challenge always comes when I want to make different tones on an uneven surface (like a face). I borrowed books but I usually notice that to achieve such effects, they use a tablet PC. Any alternative?
Quote from: LimpingFish on Sat 20/09/2008 21:11:28
I have no 2D skills. I get by.
LimpingFish "getting by" would be an understatement.
What should be used for 2d art is quite dependant on the style you are aiming at achieving. Tablets do make drawing on a PC easier (for some) but it is not impossible to do without.
Have you an example of work you'd be interested in trying to replicate?
Actually I just want to make something that is decent enough. Haha. You can guess how bad my work is!
I actually liked Money Island 1's graphics - simple, primitive but neat. I just can't figure how it is made. Did they use scanners? Or was there already tablet technology? I was still a teen when I played that game.
When I see recent works like Ben Jordan, the backgrounds look "shaded", different from Monkey Island whereby you see distinct shadings on the texture. Oh another example is my avatar on the left. It's from King of Fighters. I always wonder how they draw it with such sharp and contrast graphics. I guess this is the closest I can explain to what I have envisioned. But seriously, at this point in time, I'm just trying to get decent looking enough graphics. :)
And I think what I can do first is to actually complete something, then I can show it to you guys for comment.
My experiment with Google Sketchup is producing something. Show it to you shortly. :)
By the way, I did write to Grundislav, the creator of Ben Jordan, about how he made his graphics but I guess he was really busy. Didn't get a reply. That was a couple of months ago.
You're talking about 2 different methods of painting entirely :).
Take your avatar for example. Drawing sharp graphics like these is generally indicative of individual pixel placement (or at least brush tools with a hard edge). This means that you lay down a single tone at a time, and "build" your image as it were a mosaic. To achieve this all you need is a basic paint program (even MSPaint will do), the zoom tool and a bit of patience.
Backgrounds such as those found in the Ben Jordan games you are interested in are generally achieved by using brushes with a soft edge, usually larger in size than those used in pixel by pixel works. This gives shading and texture a more blended look. Programs like Paintshop Pro, Photoshop and The Gimp (a free alternative) are generally favoured here.
If you're interested in feedback, create some art and then post it in the critic's lounge. There's generally a bunch of good advice to be found in there.
Good luck :)
Wow ok. Haha. So, you can tell how ignorant I am! But thanks for shedding me light.
But I don't think the artists for King of Fighters used MS Paint and drew the images pixel by pixel. They probably would have been fired for not fulfilling dateline! Hahahaha! There has to be some method.
Let's take for instance, how was Guybrush Threepwood drawn in Monkey Island 1?
I just completed my attempt in a background using Google Skethcup. Not exactly what I had in mind, but at least there is something. I just want to finish a game!! ;D
Here, take a look at my attempt. As this is not meant to be commented (it's just a sketch and my first attempt), I think it's okay not to post this in the critique's lounge. I don't mind this quality just to at least have a game created. ;D
(http://download.going-nowhere.org/files/The%20Vanishing%20Town%20-%20experimental.jpg)
Hi Sydrik. Somehow just from reading your posts I had a feeling you might be from Singapore... and I was right! ;D Rare to see a fellow countryman here.
I don't know about KoF, but for the really old games like Street Fighter, I think it really was done pixel by pixel. Of course, first they had proper lineart, and then they went over it using the method Ben described. Same with Guybrush in the first Monkey Island. In fact, if you look around the Critics Lounge, you can probably find many examples of similar pixel art done in MS Paint. But then MS Paint isn't the only program that can do pixel art - there are many others that can do it even better, as listed here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=5644.0).
I use Google Sketchup to plan my backgrounds too, and then I paint over it. But your screenshot looks fine - I think that's a good working style for a game (assuming, of course, that your characters are drawn in a similar style).
Hi Auriond!
Great to see someone from Singapore too. Frankly, I am just as surprised as you, because I never thought that I would bump into people in our country who works on AGS. Haha. I have friends working in LucasArts, and you probably heard about Sean Teh, who recently broke into the gaming industry - yeah I know him too.
Yeah, I'd probably use Sketchup for now, because Gmax is too complicating for my simple need. Guess I'll have to adjust my characters to fit the background. Or like you do, and as suggested by some earlier posts, to use Sketchup as the base for perspective and guide, and then paint over.
Like you, I have limited time to work on my game. You know how things are in Singapore... hahaha.
Actually by "pixel by pixel" I mean with full control over the colour value of each pixel. Obviously one can draw an outline and then use the fill tool or use a larger but full solid brush to do this faster :).
I would definitely assume that Guybrush was drawn pixel by pixel. He's a very simple character to draw in MI1 - I would not even bother doing a sketch before going in to pixel a character like that.
MSPaint isn't a very advanced program to draw pixels in, but it is functional enough. I've used it for a bunch of my backgrounds.
Your screenshot looks like a workable style for a game. As auriond mentions, it is important to match your character style somewhat, but I can see this working in a game.
Have fun with your drawing :)
Quote from: Sydrik on Sun 21/09/2008 08:56:53
I actually liked Money Island 1's graphics - simple, primitive but neat. I just can't figure how it is made. Did they use scanners? Or was there already tablet technology? I was still a teen when I played that game.
Well, I use the same programe they used for drawing all the... drawings haha. It's called Deluxe Paint (I have version II, and it's free). Maybe you'll need DosBox, it's a MS-DOS emulator.
I do sketches for some of my art in pixel format, ie, I make a skeleton with proportions and then fill it out. I don't draw on paper, and I suspect the people who did KoF might have looked at concept art for inspiration but designed the characters entirely with a mouse, using programs like DPaint that have maximum control over color range and palette choice (plus they could animate the sprite as well).
Try anim8or. It's the easiest 3D program you will ever use. The new beta version even has a built-in ray tracer.
Cinema4D is my tool of choice- it is very easy to use and will serve you well. It's also quite cheap these days if you don't need the latest version; I remember Version 4 being available for free a while ago on their homepage ( http://www.maxonshop.com/us/gp/products.software.main/100/429-1227290238-2488// (http://www.maxonshop.com/us/gp/products.software.main/100/429-1227290238-2488//) ). A simple Google search should help you. A nice feature is its optional "cartoon" renderer. Not the best one, and of course there are all sorts of arguments against program creating a look for you, but as TerranRich mentioned, it is a good way to creates templates that you then sketch over.
And for the Monkey Island question- as far as I know the backgrounds were actual oil paintings scanned and adjusted slightly.
I second Ghost's endorsement of Cinema 4D. I've used it almost exclusively since v5.0, and it covers all creative bases.
But probably the quickest way to block out a background is Google Sketch-Up. And it's free.
What's it like for terrain building, and whats the free object content like, if at all? I'm interested in other "world creation" stuff, not sure if Cinema 4D is it though. I've also found it considerably hard to find free 3D objects about the place. Sometimes world/3d creation seems like Habbo Hotel, you have to pay a hundred dollars for someones model of a shopping basket, etc.
If anyone wants to create a literal world (global size, or at least large amounts of terrain) check out a program called Fractal World Explorer (FWE). I don't exactly know how to use it, and I only learned about it from these two (Link (http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/Fractal_terrain) Link (http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/WorldBuilding_101)) tutorials for Oblivion's construction set.
But it does look pretty sweet.
~Trent
Quote from: Mods on Mon 24/11/2008 03:42:41
What's it like for terrain building, and whats the free object content like, if at all? I'm interested in other "world creation" stuff, not sure if Cinema 4D is it though. I've also found it considerably hard to find free 3D objects about the place. Sometimes world/3d creation seems like Habbo Hotel, you have to pay a hundred dollars for someones model of a shopping basket, etc.
There's a number of procedural "world generation" programs; Vue, Bryce, Terragen and the like. Exporting an entire world for use in a game, though, (vegatation, enviroment, etc) isn't really what these programs are for; pre-rendered animations and stills being their forte.
As for free content, there's lots of sites with free stuff (Turbosquid, for example) but they come in a variety of formats, and good low-poly models for realtime use are hard to find. Plus a lot of stuff is program specific (.max, .vue, etc).
It's taken me the best part of five years to build a decent library of royalty free re-usable models for when I'm too lazy to model something myself. ;)
EDIT: Cinema 4D has options for generating fractal terrains and procedural environments built-in. No option to export them though, beyond converting the terrain into geometry and saving it as an .obj or .3ds file for use in other packages.