Throw yourself off a cliff in an attempt to commit suicide?
Hopefully not, jackass!
What I would like to know is what you other people do when you've put so much into a game and suddenly it just doesn't appeal to you any more. Well, not so much that it doesn't appeal, but, you just don't feel like it's going to be that good as you thought it might be. You know you want to complete it and it's been a goal you've had for a long time but you just don't have the gusto... how do you get yourself out of the rut?
Sometimes I get to the point where working on this one game yanks so much out of me I'd just like to start a new game. It's exciting to think about something fresh, but I wouldn't do that since Rince and I have put so much into this and I'd like for this game to be out there more than anything in the world.
What I like to do when I feel like this is read through old notes and things that I've written and e-mails sent from Rincewind. Doing that usually get's me going and thinking about it again. Another good motivator is reading other people's critiques on the game and what they think. Especially good comments ;)
So what do you do?
Are there any games out there that have been finally released that almost weren't?
--Snake
When come to think about it... There are people who work in games industry, but they get stressed out too, still, somehow they finish it. Of course they have no much choice, they get paid for that and that is their living. You see, there always has to be some kind of reward that gets you off, once you lose it, you may get depressed.
Think of some reward you get when its done, some nice graphics to your portfolio? Get famous? Or, the most important of them all -- guts to finish something more, guts to step on depression and be a man who can take everything! Once you have set the reward, you can set the deadline which keeps you even more motivated because it works with the reward!
But if to talk about lack of motivation in work in progress stage, even when you have the guts, just play some good adventure games! Take some time with them. You get some good rest with them, and they give you ideas, motivation etc.
Remember, every person needs a rest after work. And while resting, rest like there is no project. Only thing to pay attention is to not let resting be your habit. Keep yourself still active while resting, especially with things that keep you motivated, play some games, go on a hike etc, the main thing is to not get louzy and scratch your belly all the day!
You know what else is good? Isolation. I mean isolation from all the things that may distract you. I remember I have done some of my best works when I was alone and bored as hell (I had no movies nor internets and it was damn cold outside!).
Ofcourse, there is always even one more option. Throw yourself off a cliff! After that, when you discover you didn't die, you swear to god you could have finished it!
Ah, I once had a thread about that too. I feel quite often that I'll never get my current, super-long WIP done. Sometimes I even wonder if anyone here'd take me serious should I talk about it yet one more time.
I take a break from the game and anything related to it for a few days. No AGS, no sketches, no idle reading in the library / Wiki. Eventually I "snap back" and often find that something I wanted to achieve was actually quite easy to do, or can be done even better. Sometimes I find the dialogue line that is just right after a couple of days. Sometimes it takes leterally ages to get a room right. But I usually get it done, after clearing my head. Most times my own "designer's block" is caused by the sheer involvement in the game, and the fact that I am a bit of a perfectionist.
What also keeps me up are those occasions where someone feels the need to say something nice about my game. Aussie was nice enough to mention my game a few times; it even appeared in the "What games are you most exited about..." thread.
I recently opened a site for it and got some feedback from both old and new AGS users, and these simple lines are what can keep a man going.
Sometimes it's the easiest way to take things more lightly, that I found out.
On my last and only game, it has a chunk missing from it, that was planed. I'd lost motivation with the project and so pushed myself to at least finish it. I feel like I am repeating myself here you know...
As for my current project, well I'd took a break from it to concentrate on my music as I have little time to spend on it as it is. Now my music only needs the inlet and stuff printing and pasting together and selling and handing out promo discs, I will soon return to my game. Rejoice! I really can't wait.
I think most of us have some "super-long WIP", as Ghost said, that they're working on, or have worked on. I'm in the same boat. I've been working on this game, on and off, for about 5 or 6 years now. Like Snake does, I read peoples' comments on the demo, and I also look back at all the hard work I've put into this game, with a lot of positive comments from people who have helped me over the years.
I mean, I once had a private forum going with about 4-5 AGS members helping me out with my game. It helped incredibly, not only with the game's plot and gameplay in general, but with my motivation as well. Other people wanted to see this project through, and I keep telling myself that I cna't give up, that I can't lose hope.
Well, I'm not so much of a patient guy, but I've been in production of a game the last 5 months then because I didn't write some interactions and because my other games weren't that good nobody except a few like my game. And I've put one hell of a n effort to this one. I don't know sometimes I think I should stop production of the sequel but I say to myself that quitting is the easy way. So when Lone Case 2 comes out I hope it will blow your minds off. Because I have decided that this would be my very last game. Fails or Not it will be my last.
No matter how good your project is, you will get sick of it and think it's awful as you get closer to completion. You're too close to it. Everything in the game is just a bunch of pixels and lines of code. And every little thing becomes a massive flaw. What helps is to have others take a look at what you've done so far. Having someone look at it with fresh eyes and give you feedback helps tremendously.
Quote from: Dualnames on Sun 22/07/2007 03:33:31
Well, I'm not so much of a patient guy, but I've been in production of a game the last 5 months then because I didn't write some interactions and because my other games weren't that good nobody except a few like my game. And I've put one hell of a n effort to this one. I don't know sometimes I think I should stop production of the sequel but I say to myself that quitting is the easy way. So when Lone Case 2 comes out I hope it will blow your minds off. Because I have decided that this would be my very last game. Fails or Not it will be my last.
What if a genie appears and says if you don't make another game, he'll destroy the whole world?
Quote from: Dualnames on Sun 22/07/2007 03:33:31
Because I have decided that this would be my very last game. Fails or Not it will be my last.
Why? Why be the last? We are getting intensely better at every game you make
QuoteNo matter how good your project is, you will get sick of it and think it's awful as you get closer to completion. You're too close to it. Everything in the game is just a bunch of pixels and lines of code. And every little thing becomes a massive flaw. What helps is to have others take a look at what you've done so far. Having someone look at it with fresh eyes and give you feedback helps tremendously.
Absolutely right Dave, though I've had a few occasions where I really loved the game I was working on (Dance Til You Drop!) right to the end. Mind's Eye pretty much ended up with me completing it because I was literally sick of spending hours on backgrounds and not being satisfied with the result. I think when you strike that balance of working on a game you can realistically manage at a level you feel comfortable with that's when game design is most pleasurable. When you push too hard and try to do too much yourself is when you create angst, though I would say it's often rewarding to push yourself even if you can't possibly succeed. It gives you an idea of what your limits are.
As for what I do when I'm bored of a game (and it's almost always the backgrounds) I usually play a few games in a totally different genre to get some inspiration, to remind me
why I even bothered making a game. Usually they are games I already know and like so I am positively reinforced, but sometimes I will revisit an old project and examine what it was that made me put it on hold or decide not to make it.
It's good that you finished Mind's Eye. Not just because it's a good game (cuz it is) but also once you get in the habit of dropping your projects, it's just gets easier and easier.
Thing is, that I always try to have much more than 1 reasons to complete the game (from music point wise, not a full game, nor I've ever worked alone in AGS). It helps greatly to have a team that motivate each other, it helps if you promote and see the reactions of the people (hopefully positive), it helps to be creating something new, at least from what you know, it helps to have financial benefits from the game (getting paid, or selling the game), it helps to have deadlines, it helps to use what you do to push yourself further, it helps to use what you create (music in my case) in your current portfolio, so to use the current situation of a game to boost yourself further and have the making of the game be the part of the "bigger plan".
I do know, that I got deadly bored to some instances of the games, and quit, or kept in touch because I loved the team, but in other cases I'm just enjoying very much what I do! I really like working with Vince XII, period! If someting goes wrong in the future, I can't tell, but I know that I don't want to dissapoint him, no matter contract or whatever, and I want the game to work! Same goes with alkis pretty much (though with Vince we have worked in the past together as well). One thing that keeps me alive, is that both are very organised which gives me a very good idea of what they want and when they want it.
It's good to know that there are people besides me that get this way. It's good to talk to people that have had the same problem.
I knew I was forgetting something when I wrote what I do when I'm in this rut: Playing other adventure games. You guys are totally right about having to remind yourself why you even wanted to make a game in the first place. Besides hearing other people's responces to my games, playing other peoples games really helps quite a bit. I love looking through the Completed Games forum and downloading games that I've missed (though I rarely write a responce - which is a very bad habit). I always think to myself that one day my game's title is going to be right there at the top too. It's pretty cool stuff.
It's also good to see when someone releases a game and they tell you how long it took them to make it ("...it's finally finished!!1!") and see how excited they are that it's DONE. Another one (if not the first) under their belt. Now they can start with a fresh idea.
I think that the reason why I've been pushing myself so hard the last couple years is that I just want it done. I really don't want that attitude since I know it'll suck if I'm just finishing it as quick as possible and forgetting about the polish just to get it out of my way. And I hate having that attitude because it's really not in the way. I love my game and everything about it.... it's just become some sort of a fuckhead. And how a bunch of papers and word documents become a fuckhead, I don't know, but he's a big one. He. Ah, shit :P
Dave: That's a great idea. I think I'll do that. I'm a little scared, but, I'm sure it'll work. I once explained this game to my girlfriend and I ended up not wanting to work on it again ;) I never realized how rediculous it sounded until I started to talk about it out loud. Science Fiction isn't in her vocabulary anyway. But since then it's changed quite a bit and she is loving the idea and can't wait to play it herself.
I would just need to find somebody to read my stuff for me. Would you be interested in doing something like that, Gilberto? I know you must be busy so it's alright to say no :)
Or somebody else?
Argh
--Snake
Some patient browsing brought me back to this similar thread I once started. I'll link to it- I was quite amused to see how similar the responses are. Seems we all have that strange feeling sometimes.
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=22030.msg269374#msg269374 (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=22030.msg269374#msg269374)
I do as I did with Piratess. Give up all hope, feel upset about the time I spent working on it, leave it a month or so, and then rush a quick ending.
Within the space of an afternoon I made something like 2 rooms, 3 characters and completed a puzzle. The ending was a Quantum Leap ending where the main character says "Thanks Al", then vanishes in a blue glow.
But there is only so much Quantum Leaping AGS games can have.
Quote from: Snake on Sat 21/07/2007 19:32:11
Throw yourself off a cliff in an attempt to commit suicide?
Hopefully not, jackass!
That would explain why so many WiP threads just fade away. ;)
My best advice is to take a break for a weekend or two and then get back into it the next week ;) But then again my game has been on hold for ages :(
Kewl thread Snake.
You really don't want to know how long I worked on t3h best g4me ever, or how many rooms I actually managed to put in it.
I started AGS with the intention of all fanboys to make the game of my dreams, and I actually didn't quit on it as the years went by. Then came a point where I actually realized that my game was terrible, and I had to revamp it. I did that, and then I learned more, and I tried to revamp it again. That process kept repeating itself over and over. Eventually it got to a point where I told myself, I either am going to keep revamping this game forever, or I'll get to a section that will stay sucky no matter how much I try to save it.
I took a break from that game because I actually wanted to finish a real game, and that happened to be La Croix Pan. So that's my story. I really don't think I'll be going back to my old game. It's too much of a pain to even look at anymore.
Quote from: TheJBurger on Sun 22/07/2007 21:54:10
I really don't think I'll be going back to my old game. It's too much of a pain to even look at anymore.
That's the case with most old games. I can't stand looking at my old stuff, even though people liked them when they were released. All I see are the flaws.
I'm currently in a rut with Unbound. I just look at it and think "Nobody will want to play this! I'm wasting my time!". Y'know, general self-pitying guff I expect everbody who makes a game experiences at one point or another.
I usually look at a nice compliment I got for Heartland Deluxe (doesn't matter for what aspect or from whom) and that helps stoke the creative fires.
Generally all it takes to get back into it is a new idea or piece of artwork/music/writing that I'm happy with. It also helps to break the project down into manageable chucks and concentrate on one at a time, instead of pining for some distant finish line.
Well honestly, if you seriously think no one will want to play the game you should wonder why you think that. Is it just because you don't want to work on it at that point or is there some validity? Not all games should be made, nor are all games good. This isn't meant to discourage you but rather to help you put in perspective where these feelings come from. When I don't want to work on a game it's never about the idea or that people won't like it but rather my frustration with background layouts or just general boredom over having to do everything myself.
Dave is right in that once you start abandoning projects it becomes easier but I wouldn't say it's any better to complete a game you suddenly realize isn't very good or worth all your effort. The main reason I switched to Boyd Quest for awhile is because the quirky story and situations make me laugh (I enjoy making funny death animations for instance) so I keep amused by the different things I can make happen. Silly/funny games remind me that game design can be fun and not just work.
I noticed that, the longer I delay a project the more likely I can just put it in the trash can. :( Sad reality, anyway I like the idea of finding little ways to amuse myself when making the game and keeping myself motivated like that thanks ProgZmax.
LimpingFish seriously the screenies on Unbound look amazing! It reminds me of myst for some reason, so at least I'll play it :) So I hope thats not a nobody in your book ;)
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Sun 22/07/2007 22:57:02
Quote from: TheJBurger on Sun 22/07/2007 21:54:10
I really don't think I'll be going back to my old game. It's too much of a pain to even look at anymore.
That's the case with most old games. I can't stand looking at my old stuff, even though people liked them when they were released. All I see are the flaws.
Well, at least you managed to finish all your old games. :)
Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 23/07/2007 01:04:08
Well honestly, if you seriously think no one will want to play the game you should wonder why you think that. Is it just because you don't want to work on it at that point or is there some validity? Not all games should be made, nor are all games good. This isn't meant to discourage you but rather to help you put in perspective where these feelings come from. When I don't want to work on a game it's never about the idea or that people won't like it but rather my frustration with background layouts or just general boredom over having to do everything myself.
When I made the unconcious choice to abandon my super project, it was because I realized that the game was awful and beyond repair. It would take months and months of work just to salvage the game to a point where I thought it would be playable to my current standards. And even then, there would still be some elements of the game that I couldn't change without totally rebuilding the game. It just wouldn't be worth the time and effort to me. I thought it would be better to take what I've learned and apply it on smaller more managable projects, and that's what I did.
Quote
Dave is right in that once you start abandoning projects it becomes easier but I wouldn't say it's any better to complete a game you suddenly realize isn't very good or worth all your effort. The main reason I switched to Boyd Quest for awhile is because the quirky story and situations make me laugh (I enjoy making funny death animations for instance) so I keep amused by the different things I can make happen. Silly/funny games remind me that game design can be fun and not just work.
Are you saying once you start abandoning projects it becomes easier to abandon more projects?
My WiP has been on hold for a while now, but that's because I'm in Japan, supposedly on holiday... haha. Spending more and more time on the net every day.
There are good and bad things about leaving a project untouched for so long.
The good thing is, I'm, really looking forward to getting back on with it when I return because I'm generally pleased with what I have so far and would like to finish it. So having a rest can make you more eager to get on with it .
The bad thing is after a few months break, you do notice the flaws more... I mean my backgrounds are highly flawed anyway, but that's due to my lack of artistic skills. The biggest flaw I've noticed in my game is the storyline. It is crap. And it:s something I'm really going to have to work on when I get back.
Some people here are reeeallly good at making games. Art, music, writing and scripting are all things I take an interest in, but I don:t specialise in any particular area, so my game will only ever be average. But I don't mind... as long as a few people say "cool man, I enjoyed that", then It will be worth the effort.
If you're having difficulties with the game proper then why not work on something else related to your game. Build a website for it, design a theoretical CD case, work on the title screen, write a mini-game that might be included in the main game. Or maybe even turn your story into a screenplay and imagine what it would be like on the big screen.
Yes, once you start shelving projects it seems to become easier to do so.
I'd like to kiss the guy who started this post. OK, I've been rethinking of Rui's comments ("Your game needs polish, polish, polish")
And this thread as well.
So I polished my game. And I'm quite glad with the result. Plus I made all backgrounds and character art and animation for the sequel. Still, this will remain my last project. I will carry on with game industry but only helping out other people's project.
Since reading through this I went back through all my old games and some of them I'd really like to resurrect and improve, but I've llearnt from past mistakes - one game at a time :P
QuoteI'd like to kiss the guy who started this post.
Lay it on me. Nice and thick.
And wet ;)
Yes, I definately agree with the longer the project sits the harder it is to pick it up again. One problem for me is I forget where I was in the process. Was I working on the opening scene or was I working on this other part, etc... And yeah, losing interest after it sits is a little problem as well.
The main problem for me all in all is that I lose the interest because I've been working on it so long - it just get's discouraging. I ask myself, "Am I ever going to finish this?" and the day it is will be the best. I can't wait. I really love this project and am honestly enjoying every burst of energy/modivation I have to work on it. It feels great to be on a roll that doesn't seem to end. That's when the best ideas and fixes for specific parts come out and everything always seems to click and fit together.
The reason why I'm doing a game like the
Choose Your Own Adventure books is because I loved the feeling they gave you. The feeling where you really did have endless possibilities. But the entire game isn't just picking between a bunch of choices it's going to be a regular adventure game but with that mixed in it.
I can't remember who said it, but just because I'm doing a game like this doesn't mean you shouldn't. In my opinion, I'd love to see more games like this made.
--Snake
I've barely touched upon the scripting phase of my game. I'm going to get all my backgrounds and sprites etc gathered first then tackle the scripting. It's the part of the process I am looking forward to the most, but it is also the most daunting for me.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 23/07/2007 01:04:08
Well honestly, if you seriously think no one will want to play the game you should wonder why you think that. Is it just because you don't want to work on it at that point or is there some validity?
Well, I was just giving an example of the kind of self-doubt a creator can feel regarding a work-in-progress, rather than explicitly commenting on my own. And I will admit that trying to gauge how potential players will react to the finished product is a negative and fairly pointless distraction.
I always tell myself that the reason I want to make games is to tell stories; the kind of stories that I would want to experience regardless of the medium. I'm not comfortable designing puzzles, per se, and the ones I do come up with generally end up being little more than busy work for the player, designed to slow the game down and pace the experience. Which is were the doubt about anybody wanting to play the game comes from, I guess.
Having said that, I would never let that factor actually discourage me from making the kind of game I want to make.
But the urge just to stop, through sheer laziness and lack of disipline, means relying on the lamest of excuses.
Of which I am guilty.
Of course, if your only purpose is to tell a story and the interactivity is irrelevant to that story, one must ask why make a game at all instead of using a linear medium? (Tangential, I know.)
That's true enough. Books can be experiences as well: they can make you laugh or cry if the author has some talent, and some visionaries can even make you see a new world through their eyes. Of course a book has limits on what it can bring to the experience as well: aside from "Choose Your Own Adventure" and interactive fiction type tales, books can't let you take direct control of a character and influence the outcome of the tale. As a storyteller you should know right away if what you want to provide is a general experience and glimpse into the world or if you want there to be more. I don't consider puzzles a necessary element of gameplay but neither is combat; you definitely need something to challenge the player, however, whether it's through dialog decisions, combat or a game of chess. Don't feel hedged into including puzzles in your game because it's an 'adventure game'. An adventure game (to me) doesn't mean 'an endless series of ridiculous puzzles with a massive inventory of items designed to impede progress rather than entertain'. Since the game should be an experience try and come up with new ways or twists to make that experience memorable.
I don't think I'm the only person who is well and truly tired of bog-standard puzzlefest 'games' at this point :).
Well I've never finished an AGS game (mainly because I've never had a decent enough idea that I've wanted to turn into a full game), but the one medium-sized game I did make (in OHRRPGCE no less) had a huge gap in the production. I went back to it because I had an overall plan and could see how much work was left (less than I'd done), and also because of the amount of people that knew it was in production. Also my brother kept on at me about how I'd never finished anything and I wanted to prove him wrong. I think that helps; taking a break, having a visible target to aim at and having some reason to finish it apart from yourself.
Its also my experience that even after taking a long break you won't want to go back to a project, but if you force yourself to open it up, you can usually find an area to work on that you don't mind much. But that was when I was at school and had loads of free time :)
Well I have had many ideas many half made games... (sadly) :'( my general problem is that I get bored and secondly I want to create this perfect 20/10 game that will take over the world while I sleep ;)
I have written many scripts and while I thought maybe to one day just give them to someone and say HERE make it if you like it, I feel that it is still my responsibility to complete them :-\
Well I need to work this into my schedule, and start finishing up my games. I think some sort of co assistant program will do well, where you interact and bounce ideas with someone and show them your progress. I found that when I spoke t Buloght on a daily basis I completed more sprites and backgrounds and actually scripted some of my game :) (Jonathan Crest) Cause I wanted to show him more progress when we spoke the next day.
Well I wonder if we should make a buddy system to help inspire the lazy ones, such as I. ;)
A buddy system, fucking fabulous idea ;) Not a bad idea at all, chum!
Isn't there something like that stickied in the tech forum?
I still have to find somebody to tell the whole story to and have them tell me how much they like/dislike it ;) I think I'll post it in the GiP thread. Dave G0rbirt-chalicious did give me that great idea - some one with fresh eyes looking at it would be great. Then I could see if I've stayed on track and if every flaw I'm seeing is just from working on it too much. Or if they are really there.
--Snake
Well my only game, The Big Bad wolf and the...etc etc. was one of these games, that almost disappeared to the computer heaven.
After I had created like two rooms I lost interest and had the game stand there untouched for like half a year, until I got the adventure touch once again after I finished some Lucasarts games once again.
Then I really worked on it and finally finished it.Although it's not a masterpiece but I'm very damn proud of it.
Now another game as the same stance, untouched sitting on my harddrive, but the problems are more AGS related than inspirational (some weird pixel dithering thingie has appeared after the latest version)
Well
I have 1 idea for the past 1 year, or even more... BUT.
i. It is a huge idea and would take a huge ammount of time to organise it really (Des. docs, etc...)
ii. I can't do graphics and scripting. I have found the scripter but for graphics... nobody will come fourth... :'(
That said, I know that what I want from this game would push AGS to the limits all the way, but still it does seem doable... in a way...
But if I am to go for it, due to the size of the project, the only way would be to go commercial. To actually pay the people who work on the game, since it would require A LOT of work. So I'm still sitting and thinking about it. If I find time I will finish the documents needed to organise the whole thing and then I'll start searching for a team... (3 people, coder, artist, animateur, and me the 4th. Plus, plenty of beta testers)