Adventure Game Studio

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In this, the original, uncensored, unofficial, undocumented, unsupported, somewhat superfluous, completely ostentatious edition of Why Your Game Is Brokenâ,,¢ we will be discussing the number one primary cause of all broken AGS games, especially those that were never released! So sit down, shut up, and strap in because this is gonna be a bumpy ride.

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I just joined the forums.

Congratulations. You've managed to prove that you are a human being or at least equivalent thereof enough to supply all the required information to register an account. Just to be current I have reviewed the process required to register an account. One of the first things you must do in order to register is to take a very simple quiz.

This quiz is not anything extravagant. It won't give you your IQ score at the end. It's just a method of trying to weed out trolls, bots, and morons. The problem is it doesn't work. Mostly you're just looking for the longest of the answers. Aside from that you might have to use a bit of logic and or a reading level equivalent to about that of a 5th Grade US student...Are You [As] Smart[ As] a 5th Grader? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Are_You_Smarter_Than_a_5th_Grader%3F) anyone? Most of the contestants are at least capable of selecting an answer in any case.

It's not to say we don't appreciate new members. A new face is always welcome. But this is not a defense if you break the established forum rules and customs! Obviously though if this applies to you, then you haven't read the quiz to register, you haven't read the rules, and you've thoroughly made sure to make no attempt to solve the problem yourself before demanding someone assist you. As such, I'll try to make this a bit more graphical. Perhaps the pretty pictures will catch your attention.

IT DOESN'T WORK!!!11 >:( >:( >:(

There's several things wrong with this. First off, it's in all caps. That's likely to get you reprimanded at minimum, and made fun of at best. Next you're not holding down the Shift key quite long enough while mashing the '1' key to produce the '!' symbol. Not that you should be repeating that key that many times anyway in a post, but it's just plain silly anyway using a number as a punctuation mark. Following that there's the issue of emotispamming. There's really not an excuse to repeatedly use the same emoticon more than once or maybe twice in a row. They're there for a reason, cluttering your post with images is not the reason.

The final thing wrong with this is that it does not describe the problem. Anytime you create a post you should have a well defined problem than you need help with as well as what you've done to try and resolve the issue yourself. But enough seriousness, time for some pictures! Once you've got AGS downloaded and installed, let's take a look at step one!

(https://sites.google.com/site/monkey0506/WYGIB_4.PNG)

That's weird, it looks like that says don't post. If I don't post how am I supposed to get help?

This may strike you as odd, but your first line of defense in the battle against ignorance is yourself. If you're not willing to take some time to teach yourself, nothing anyone else can say is going to force you to learn it. You have to at least be willing to try. So the first thing you'll need to do is open your AGS folder, which should look reasonably similar to this:

(https://sites.google.com/site/monkey0506/WYGIB_5.PNG)

Obviously you wouldn't have this Madden style magic marker going all over the screen, but that's there for clarification. We are not going to open the editor yet. The very first thing you need to know about before you ever even think of touching the editor is the help file. This is the first resource you will reference in regards to 99.9% of your issues when starting out using AGS.

At the very least you should take the time to familiarize yourself with the layout of the help file before you start using AGS. It will help you to be able to easily find the correct page when you need it, and in so doing can help you to assist yourself in solving many of your own problems with AGS.

One of the most important things you'll need to know about is the three different ways you can browse through the help file: Contents, Index, and Search.

Contents
(https://sites.google.com/site/monkey0506/WYGIB_6.PNG)

When you select the Contents tab, you will see an itemized list with all of the articles in the help file listed in an easy to navigate directory tree:

(https://sites.google.com/site/monkey0506/WYGIB_7.PNG)

If you have a general direction where you're trying to go this can definitely help to point you in the correct direction. For example, if you have a Scripting question you would open the Scripting tree. You can then work your way through the tree to find the appropriate help entry. If you cannot find what you're looking for however, don't fear there's more to the help file yet!

Index
(https://sites.google.com/site/monkey0506/WYGIB_8.PNG)

If you know what you're looking for and you weren't able to find it in the Contents, or just want a faster method to pull it up the Index is a great option. The index contains a list of every page in the help file, listed by the title of the article. You can also type in a search term and it will automatically seek to the nearest page title. So if you're looking for information on blocking scripts and you type in "blo" you've already typed in enough to identify the article, "Blocking scripts, explained." So if you have an idea what the title of the page is it's definitely a great place to look. If you have no idea whatsoever what the title of the page would be, these two options haven't been much help. But there is one last option within the help file...

Search
(https://sites.google.com/site/monkey0506/WYGIB_9.PNG)

This can often be the most useful option in the help file. Many times you don't know the exact title of the page you're looking for, so the other two options don't provide much help. But with the search function you can seek any page with a specific search term. Here I've done a search for articles related to "blocking" and found several pages with the word "blocking" within them. Based off the results I now have a better idea what page I'm looking for. If I'm still not completely sure, I can still look through the pages to find the specific answer I'm looking for.

What if I still can't find what I'm looking for?

Unfortunately even with all the great options the help file has built-in to assist you in finding the correct page, you may not always be able to find the help you need. Our next step is to open the editor. If you haven't yet started a game, that's wonderful. Go ahead and start your first game project. We won't be doing anything with it yet, we're only opening AGS so I can show you another self-help option.

(https://sites.google.com/site/monkey0506/WYGIB_1.PNG)

AGS has a Help menu, the first item of which is Dynamic Help. Dynamic Help is, exactly as it says, a dynamic option to further assist you in finding that right page in the help file. What it can do is depending on where you are in AGS it can actually try to direct you to the correct page in the help file. Depending on your question it's not always a fail-proof solution, but it can be a major boost in the right direction.

This isn't helping. Some help file that is!

While the help file is your first resource to contact if you have a problem or question about AGS, it is not an all-inclusive help solution. There are other resources available that you should contact before you click that Post button.

The AGS Wiki (http://www.americangirlscouts.org/agswiki/) and Beginner's FAQ (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/wiki/Category:AGS_Beginners%27_FAQ)
(https://sites.google.com/site/monkey0506/WYGIB_2.PNG)

The AGS Wiki is a wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki) based around AGS obviously. It contains many articles that can help you discover answers to questions you may have about AGS, so it is definitely recommended that you check it out and look over some of the articles there. It is also the location of the Beginner's FAQ (BFAQ) which are a set of frequently asked beginner's questions that may or may not be easily answered in the help file. You can search the wiki as well so if you're not sure of the title of the page you can search for words within the article to see if there are any relevant articles.

The Forum Search (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=search)
(https://sites.google.com/site/monkey0506/WYGIB_3.PNG)

If you click on "Search" at the top of the forums, right beneath the AGS banner, you will be taken to the forum search which will allow you to search through the forums. This is often the most important step, but very often the most neglected one. Very often new users will have a simple question that they would like a quick, easy answer to. If they use the forum search, they often will find that their question has not only been asked, but has been answered before.

You can enter keywords, search for posts by a specific user, sort by date, relevance, and much more with the forum search. It is a very useful tool for finding posts in the forum related to a specific question or issue.

I've done all that and I still don't have an answer!

If you have completed all these steps and you still haven't found your answer, you are now qualified to post in the forums. You should at this point have:

- A well formed question. Simply saying something such as "how do you do scripting" or the like is not a well formed question. There is actually a scripting tutorial in the help file which should have been the first resource you looked to. If you have a specific question, try to be clear what you are asking.
- The resources you have used. Have you read in the manual? The BFAQ? Have you searched the forums? If you've done this and have missed the answer it will say much more for you than if you are simply asking for the answer without having done anything to try and resolve the issue yourself. In short, the more you do to try and fix it yourself, the more willing we will be to try and help you get your problem resolved.
- Any relevant scripts, error codes, or screenshots. Any time you are asking a question regarding a specific script, error code, something you are seeing in AGS, etc. it is best to provide as much detail as you can. If your script for turning your GUI on isn't working, post the script you're using. If you're getting an error message, post the FULL error message (Ctrl+C to copy it when the error is displayed!). You can also use the PRT SCR (Print Screen) button to copy the screen to the clipboard and paste it into Paint or whatever picture editing software you use. You can then crop the relevant data and upload to an image server such as ImageShack or Photobucket so we can see exactly what you're seeing.

In Conclusion

As I said, the more you do, the more we're willing to do. So if you haven't taken the necessary steps yourself and you're having problems making your game (and this does apply retroactively to anyone who for the same reasons have failed to release their games), it is because your game is broken. Your game is broken because the author is unwilling to take the necessary steps to fix the game. It's not that there are no resources available, but if you cannot even make an attempt to resolve your issues yourself before you come crying to us, how can you expect us to take you seriously enough to make your game for you?

-monkey

Great Work!

Now all we need is for CJ to replace the forums link on the main page with one leading to this thread.

While the thread I created years ago in the Beginners' Forum says much of the same, it's not as concise and detailed as the above post. Good work. :)

I'm sorry I have to say this, but:

Do you know what this thread says to new-comers, or anyone scouting for a friendly, helpful community? It says: FUCK RIGHT OFF!!!1111 (and do it yourself, n00b!)

And yes, it is in bold. It is in caps. It even has 1s on the end.

It really is a shame this thread exists, and any other thread with a similar theme. There are some really lovely people on this forum; they are helpful, friendly and genuinely want to help. This thread completely misrepresents these lovely people, by making the whole community look arrogant, insensitive and unwelcoming.

And on the subject of not looking at the help file. Don't try and tell me the first thing you opened in the AGS folder, was "ags-help". I mean, when I get some new, exciting software to play with all I want to do is experiment.

Although you are correct that help contains most fixes, lets be honest: surely it takes just as long to post a link to the solution and sticky it, as it does to have an immature rant? A rant that will only put people off and prevent the expansion of a mostly amazing community. And a pretty amazing piece of free software.

I'm not hoping to cause any trouble, I just felt this needed saying. So far my experience of this community has been great! :)

I am so glad I stuck around here long enough to gradually notice that the people who compile these pamphlets are also but mere humans. One or two spelling errors and some obscure opinions on some obscure topics later - tada - I had overcome my fear and posted something.

Quote from: markbilly on Thu 09/10/2008 14:54:36
And on the subject of not looking at the help file. Don't try and tell me the first thing you opened in the AGS folder, was "ags-help". I mean, when I get some new, exciting software to play with all I want to do is experiment.

You're right. But when you're stuck and need some infos you ARE looking at the helpfile, at least before posting questions in a forum. There's really no need for the question how a character is able to change the room. This quesion indicates that you haven't read anything in the tutorial.

On the other hand I doubt this thread will be of any help. Is it for the few people who post stupid questions? I don't know if they'll read this thread and I don't know if they would stop asking basic stuff. It's those people who don't want to put any effort in their work. They want to instantly make a game while being to lazy to go through the Tutorial. I doubt any of them will ever finish something with AGS and I don't care if they get help or not.

Nevertheless, monkey, it's a great thread with a lot of work in it..

As far as I see it, the problem is that everyone these days expects help files to be utterly useless. Hitting F1 in an application is very much a last resort, because they're scant and poorly-indexed.

The fact is that AGS' help file is surprisingly detailed and amazing, and someone should point out that it's actually genuinely useful and thorough, that one sentence alone might be enough to encourage newbies to look there first.

(deleted)

I just want to be clear that I wasn't trying to discourage anyone from using AGS or make them feel inadequate for not knowing the answer to a question.

However, the forum does have rules. These rules do include things like reading the manual, the BFAQ, looking through the forums. Yet we consistently continue to have the same questions asked over and over.

The purpose behind the rules is to try and prevent threads like "How to make character change room to room" when the question has already been thoroughly documented. If you are not willing to put forth the effort to exhaust even the simplest of your available resources, how can you possibly expect anyone to take you seriously that you plan to create, develop, and produce a full 3D, voice acted, AGS game complete with full musical score and you're going to do it all by yourself within about 6-8 months time? I'm not referencing anyone in specific, but very often new users make claims as to what AGS will allow them to do, but fall short due to their own lack of willingness to do what it takes.

Of course the AGS community appreciates its new members. I do recognize retrospectively how much the title and the opening could send the wrong message. I may consider revising it to be a bit less offensive. It's not my intention to chase people away.

Ultimately the purpose of this thread was to try and point out that one of the biggest problems people (generically speaking) do have when they first join the forums is that they ignore everything they answered in the quiz, they ignore the rules, and they post questions that have been answered a hundred billion times before and more often than not do so not in a kindly, friendly, "Hi, I'm new and I just wanted to know..." but rather a "WTF THIS IS STUPID HOW DO I..." method.

There are the new members who will post from the very beginning in a mature, and altogether more calm manner. Even if they make the mistake of not reading in the manual or using their other resources, I'm still much more willing to not just say "RTFM!" but actually point them in the correct direction and then point out the available resources. I've done it before.

I'm also not trying to imply that simply because I've been here longer and I know more about AGS than you do that I'm some type of elitist god-like being. We're all humans (or the equivalent thereof ;)). As long as you at least make the effort to pose your question in a mature manner I'd say the majority of the other members are still willing to answer the redundant questions. I just got tired of yet again seeing about infinity billion threads being created demanding answers...

Maybe I live in alternate dimension, but I haven't had experience of this enough to annoy me. I see the odd dumb thread around, but really not that many. Certainly not enough to make this much fuss. I'd say 99% of the forum is sensible, interesting conversation and advice. And I see far more of this kind of thing than I see "HOW DO I MAEK CHAR GO ONE RM TO OTHER!11" threads...

I think the main irony with this post is that you're expected an excited newbie to read it all through before doing anything else! Rightly or wrongly the AGS Forums seem to have a reputation as being hostile towards newcomers, and I think we should be careful not to seem too negative -- otherwise we could accidentally put people off from joining and making a game, and we could end up missing out on some great games as a result.

When ridiculous posts are made (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=35761.0), I think we should try to give people the benefit of the doubt for their first post or two, and answer them politely but point them to where to look for similar answers; obviously if someone keeps posting annoying questions then we need to be firmer with them.

The technical forums certainly seem quieter these days than they used to be -- whether this is because fewer people are making games, or because AGS has become easier to use, or because people are now checking the manual/wiki/etc before posting, I don't think we've got anything to worry about right now.

It's a bit hostile... I LIKE IT~~~!!!!

Quote from: Dualnames on Thu 09/10/2008 20:58:47
It's a bit hostile... I LIKE IT~~~!!!!

Come now, are you serious? I'd hate to be considered a "generally hostile guy" just based on the fact that I'm part of the AGS community. (edit due to post below: Okay- seems I didn't get the satire. no harm, I hope)

But do we really have such a bad reputation? Back in the days when I joined, there were less "Halp PLZ lol" threads by newcomers, agreed, but since then, AGS has build a larger fanbase, and that's bound to attract the odd overexited newcomer who downloads AGS and is a bit clueless. I'm with Chris here, all regulars should give a newcomer a few "posts to settle in".
Monkey has gone some lengths here, and there's quite some truth in what he says.
If nothing else, the thread should remind long-time AGSers about their first days.

Well, I just found a little bit of the article too sarcastic and less friendly for my tastes. Monkey is a good chap, but well, I'm not for that kind of humour, if I've misinterpreted anything, you're all allowed to chop my head off.

The truth is that the answer to most of these ridiculous threads actually is "read the manual". The information is in there. I know. I've read it. I don't believe I've ever posted in the help thread, yet I suck at scripting. But what I need to know is usually found in the manual.

So, the real question, I think, is: Is replying to one of these threads with "read the manual" acceptable? Maybe instead of just "RTM", you could highlight the relevant section in the manual?

Other than answering every simple question that gets posted, I think this perceived hostility towards newcomers will remain, simply because of the nature of "read the manual" as a response, regardless of it being the correct one.

I'd say that "read the manual" is not an acceptable reply. It's not always easy to know where to look -- for example:

Q: "How can I make it so that the text isn't shown when I have voices turned on?"
A: "Read the manual!!!"

Usefulness: Zero

On the other hand:

A: "You need the SetVoiceMode function, look it up in the manual for details"

Usefulness: Very.

From the reactions to the 'hostility' inherent in the first post, I'd guess that not too many people have ventured onto the ScummVM forums. Whew. They don't even have well-written documentation as an excuse.

That said, not entirely sure why the post exists. I browse the Beginner's Technical Questions thread quite a lot and I've pretty much never seen a thread like the one described. I've seen plenty that have been answered [many times] previously, but that's par for the course of any online help, surely?

I agree that the same people who post n00b-ish threads are not likely to read through this behemoth of a post.

In the Livejournal help section where I used to lurk, people who volunteered their time to help would answer such questions with a standard format and a link to the relevant section on their FAQ. While we don't have to have standard format answers, a quick link to the tutorials would help.

I consider basic knowledge to be stuff that's covered in the tutorials, e.g. "how to make character change room". The tutorials are written in plain English and walk you through everything. Beyond that, however, I think it's reasonable if people ask for help in the forums, because they may not even know what they're looking for. I've realised that not everyone has great search skills, and what may seem out in plain sight for some of us is simply not evident to other people.

That said, I've never thought that the forums were very hostile towards newbies. In fact I've always been amazed at how kindly people like KrisMUC reply to queries posed in a short, abrupt and demanding manner. The only hint of hostility I usually see is in the acronym, RTFM. I never did like that phrase, especially used on a first time poster, but I can definitely see why people get frustrated at newbies who post for the gazillionth time "how do i draw a characrte in ags????".

In part I'd say I wrote this because of our most recent trolling (or, if you prefer, trollish) newbie. It's always been a pet peeve of mine when someone posts not just asking but actually demanding help without having put forth an ounce of effort on their own part to discover the answer. Even if they had done as much as read the forum rules it would have at least directed them to the forum search and the wiki as well as the manual online.

I'd say the real reason I get upset about this is because it's somewhat of a personal issue to me. I'm the type of person that I don't just want a simple answer. I don't want to know that it works, but why and how...actually, scratch that...knowing whether it works or not is pretty important as well. ;)

But it seems to me that there are those new members who quite simply refuse to put forth even the tiniest amount of effort for themselves. I don't want to seem like an elitist or a hypocrite here, so let me be the first to say I have made posts without verifying them against other sources first. But I would say that at least those have been few and far between.

Certainly not every new member is guilty of doing this, so don't get me wrong here. And I do understand that definitely there are times when a new user doesn't know how to look for the answer. Even if they know about the help file, wiki, forum search, etc. they may not know what specific term to look for to find their answer.

But this wasn't directed at the new users who are trying but don't know how. This was directed at the users who don't try at all. I guess I just wanted to vent because it annoys me when I see this happening.

Partly I wrote it satirically.

And partly I intended to be able to create a viable visual guide for new users who aren't willing to read.

All these things together I can probably say didn't make for the best end result possibly from any one front. So I am sorry if I offended anyone, that definitely wasn't my intention.

Besides, it was time for my annual hijacking-of-someone-else's-idea-and-trying-to-pass-it-off-as-my-own. :=

I wasn't actually trying to pass it off as my own, but you get the idea anyway.

If someone asks how to read the manual, can we say RTFHTRTFMM?

I recently joined this forums and went all through it...

1) Before getting to the forums, I got a page (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums.shtml) describing what this forum is not for.

2) Then I had to do a quiz and wondered that would happen if I fail. A message like "too noob for us, try SCRAMM"?

3) After I finally registerd, I even got a PM that I pretty please must follow the rules.

I really felt like I was breaking into one of you houses that day  :-
If I wouldn't have known before, that this is actually a nice place, I would have left instantly.

And now even more newbie bashing and elite encapsulation? Seriously... this is not what a "community" needs.

Well that certainly needed saying, abstauber. The quiz really is intimidating. Especially if you are sent pms anyway...

Quote from: Jared on Fri 10/10/2008 00:30:38
That said, not entirely sure why the post exists. I browse the Beginner's Technical Questions thread quite a lot and I've pretty much never seen a thread like the one described. I've seen plenty that have been answered [many times] previously, but that's par for the course of any online help, surely?

^ I think this is exactly the issue. This thread (and other similar comments) is basically paranoia of something that barely exists.

Maybe it barely exists because of the quiz?  :=

Creating your own AGS game = best adventure game ever! :)

Doing it on your own, the spirit of the thread  ;)

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 10/10/2008 06:50:30
Partly I wrote it satirically.

And partly I intended to be able to create a viable visual guide for new users who aren't willing to read.

I think that's a pity, because there's some good advice which would be useful to newcomers. Unfortunately for them it's hidden behind a bit of vitriol which is entertaining for existing members but potentially intimidating for people who are new to AGS and the community.

Quote from: markbilly on Fri 10/10/2008 10:36:07
I think this is exactly the issue. This thread (and other similar comments) is basically paranoia of something that barely exists.

You're crazy. Let's invade Iraq, they're harbouring newbies!

I personally think that the AGS forums are one of the best forums around (http://ags-ssh.blogspot.com/2008/04/best-forums-evah.html).

KILL AL TEH NOOBIES!!1111!11ONEONEELEVENTY1

  ;)

It's lighthearted enough, and it's not going to get put on the front page of the site, so let it be, folks.

Now, off to download AGS and put it onto my memory stick! :D

- Huw

Quote
... It's always been a pet peeve of mine when someone posts not just asking but actually demanding help without having put forth an ounce of effort on their own part to discover the answer. Even if they had done as much as read the forum rules it would have at least directed them to the forum search and the wiki as well as the manual online.

Interestingly enough I had a very similar problem when I first started working at GE many many moons ago.   I put in ton of extra time to come up to speed on everything and become an expert at what I was doing (designing uPprocessor control systems).  I enjoyed helping my colleagues and sharing what I knew.  However, after awhile people whom I had never even met started showing up at my desk asking ill prepare questions. 

My dilema was that if I just told them to piss off I would be tagged with the "Isn't a team player" or "Dose not work well with people" monikers.   If I did their work for them then I wouldn't get my work done and would be tagged as being "Unproductive".    The solution I came up with worked very well for me back then and I think it can work has some relevance to this topic.

When people came to me ill prepared I would tell then that I was busy at the moment and that I would be glad to help them later and tell them that I could make time at 11:30 or 4:30.  Introducing a slight delay gave them time to think about what they wanted to ask.  Nine times out of ten they figured things out for themselves or got some else to do their work for them.

We had a lot of field engineers who would come in, work on a project, and leave with it.  This was usually a 2-3 year cycle so when they game back on the next project things were significantly different from the last time.  Once such individual was referred to me by mutual friends.  I didn't the guy or who had sent him at the time.  Althoughhe was by no means a newbie his question surely was "I have to work on such an such and I don't even know where to start.  Some people told me to talk to you...".   I was extremely busy so I quickly showed him where he could find diagrams of all the circuit cards from which our systems were built, I showed him where the hardware template diagrams were kept, and I gave him a stack of unbound  programming manuals and other reference that he could make copies of and sent him on his way.   We eventually became really good friends and years later were reminiscing about our first meeting over a beer.  I embarrassingly remembered  blowing him off.  My friend responded saying "No!  Not at all.  You were great.  You showed me where everything was and you had all those manuals there ready to be zeroxed .  You gave me exactly what I needed and wanted."

What you can take from all of this is that yes there are vexatious and stupid people around us all the time.  The best way to deal with such people is to ignore and avoid them as much as possible and to be friendly and civilized otherwise.  Realize that first impressions are often deceiving and that acting on them in extreme way in time result in your embarrassment and regret.

========================
While pondering this discussion, I was thinking that since there are rules for posting in the Beginner's Forum, perhaps there ought to be rules for responding as well.   I was thinking of something like the following may not be a bad idea to incorporate into the forum rules.

How to respond to posts in the Beginners Forum
If you don't have something nice to say then don't say anything at all.   (except for moderators sometimes).   

How to respond to an ill informed and/or annoying question?
If you're annoyed at someone for asking for help you shouldn't waste your time responding.   If you're annoyed it's not likely you have anything helpful or useful say; ignore this post and spend your time on somerthing more positive and productive.  We have a fairly large and diverse community so sooner or later someone who is not annoyed will offer kind and friendly help.  If no one replies then a moderator can step in,  explain why help was not forthcoming and how to get a better response next time,   and provide a little help and encouragement.

How to respond to an overly general question such as "Where do I start?".
You should realize that if someone is asking overly general questions it usually means that they are overwhelmed.   What such a person needs at this point is encouragement and to be pointed to some specific reference materials.    So you could  say something like this "It's difficult to answer such a generic question but I'll do my best.   You can find out about "ABC" in the help file under "XYZ" and "DEF".  There is also an excellent tutorial here some_tutorial.com (http://some_tutorial.com) and a game template at some_tutorial.com (http://some_tutorial.com) with some really good examples.   If I were you I would just do "this that  and the other thing".   I know it can be overwhelming at first but most people find AGS easy to learn and fun to use.   For the most part we have a friendly community who very generously offer help to fellow AGSers.  Asking specific questions is the best way to get help on the forum. 

How to respond to a specific question that has an obvious answer such as "How many controls can I have on a GUI?"?
Even people who have years of AGS experience are occasionally guilty of this as well as new folks.  Yes!! It's all in the manual but sometimes you just can't seem to find that needle in the haystack.  If the question is specific the answer can be short.  Perhaps something like "I think about 30.  It should be  under "System Limits" in the help file. ".   

Quote from: abstauber on Fri 10/10/2008 09:55:24
1) Before getting to the forums, I got a page (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums.shtml) describing what this forum is not for.

I wouldn't say that page is particularly offensive, and most websites have some sort of rules/introduction page to their forum.

Quote2) Then I had to do a quiz and wondered that would happen if I fail. A message like "too noob for us, try SCRAMM"?

I guess the quiz is always going to be a bit devisive, but it's designed to be fairly easy and even if you get a question wrong it tells you where to look for the right answer.

Quote3) After I finally registerd, I even got a PM that I pretty please must follow the rules.

Who sent you that PM and what did it say? There's no official welcome PM as far as I know...

Don't we have an basic online version of the manual? Couldn't we use that for linking answers to RTM-type questions?

Such as:

Q: "How do I move my character from one room to the next?"

A:  http://www.americangirlscouts.org/agswiki/Tutorial_Part_2_-_Creating_your_first_room#Edges

What I find with a lot of these questions (the really annoying ones) is that the person doesn't seem to want to have to do anything. They basically want someone to do it for them.

Quote from: Pumaman on Fri 10/10/2008 20:12:08
I wouldn't say that page is particularly offensive, and most websites have some sort of rules/introduction page to their forum.
I guess the quiz is always going to be a bit devisive, but it's designed to be fairly easy and even if you get a question wrong it tells you where to look for the right answer.

I'm totally fine with the introduction page, it's just the conjunction of all three of these.

And if you seriously want to make a game and not just mess around, you need the forums.
Don't get me wrong (and I hope you're still reading), but the main website is in a desperate need of an overhaul. Broken links, more than outdated knowledge base (even from the days when I've been around), a bug tracker, that had no public tickes in 2 years. Even the main layout feels dated.

So that's it, what it might appear for a new visitor :
1) "Cool, showcase games. Let me try and see what the engine can do."
2) Downloads plays and realizes, that AGS is the right thing
3) Realize that the game, he just played also is a little old.
4) Revisits the site: "What? last layout change in 2004? Knowledge base articles from 2001?
5) Finds the news - "phew, still actively developed"

But to this point he already got the feeling that AGS's time of prosperity was in 2004. And this is absolutely not the case.

6) After messing around with AGS, he revisits the website again, looking for some resources, trouble shooting, whatsoever.
This (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/scifonts.htm) This is my favourite btw. :P

At this point, feeling no.5  comes back, but because he already spent that much time with AGS (and hopefully it's online help) so he trys the forums. And then it all starts again....


Sorry for this extremely large post, but AGS is so much better and this place here too. It's like the land of Cockaigne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockaigne), to get there you have to eat yourself through a giant wall of <insert whatever you can't stand> ;)

QuoteWho sent you that PM and what did it say? There's no official welcome PM as far as I know...

I just made use of the almighty "Report to Admin" feature

Though it was supposed to be a bit lighthearted, I don't think starting this thread was a very good idea. On the other hand, it does spawn some interesting discussion.

Quote from: Pumaman on Thu 09/10/2008 23:54:45
I'd say that "read the manual" is not an acceptable reply. It's not always easy to know where to look -- for example:

Q: "How can I make it so that the text isn't shown when I have voices turned on?"
A: "Read the manual!!!"

Usefulness: Zero

On the other hand:

A: "You need the SetVoiceMode function, look it up in the manual for details"

Usefulness: Very.

Yes, that's also basically my take on the two tech. forums.
However, I think I would elaborate it a bit further.

Unlike some other creation suites, AGS is actually not initially friendly to everyone. In some programmes you can do simple stuff by just moving keywords, filling in boxes or moving sliders just by mouse clicks or the drag and drop method, while in AGS it is impossible to do much without writing text scripts. (Well, starting from AC era, there were indeed attempts in making the editor simple for beginners to do simple stuff. First the graphical script editor, then the interaction editor. But as it took a lot of effort to make them really usable, and they were unable to coop with the speedy development of AGS itself, so both attempts failed.)
The learning curve is quite steep for beginners to start using AGS, especially for those who have little or no programming experience.
Also, I think the move to OO style scripting does not help much in this division. It does help people to have more organised codes, especially for development in larger scales, but it in fact complicates stuff for newbies who just want to start simple.
The move to more like a professional development environment since V3 may also scare some people away, but it is inevitable as AGS has become more and more powerful and complicated with time.

So, when answering questions which are supposed to be about obvious and simple things in these forums I would first think of the following question:
How obvious or simple is the solution, can it be solved just by reading the tutorials, or requires the knowledge of some scripting keywords (functions, properties, variables, etc., even simple and obvious ones) that you have to find in some specific locations in the manual or search for some threads in the forums?

This is important, if the solution could be simply solved by reading the tutorials (which is obvious in the manual and every beginner should read), I will give some hints and advise the poster to read the whole tutorials, like this (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=35759.msg468723#msg468723). And if the poster doesn't pay attention, in the 2nd or the 3rd time I'll just advise him seriously to read the tutorials, like this (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=35761.msg468728#msg468728).

If it is the latter case (i.e. requires knowledge of keywords and searching, etc.) it is a different story. While the AGS manual does contain extensively amount of helpful information and is well structured, sometimes it is not that easy to look for the right information. As AGS has gone through years of development, it is powerful and contains loads of features. Even experienced users may find difficulties in finding what they want sometimes.
For example, there are LOADS of functions and properties related to GUIs. Currently there are 8 subsections about GUIs in the scripting section of the manual, it may not be easy to locate the desired content immediately. Also, the search function in the manual may not always help, as often times you may not know the correct keyword to search for and this also applies to the search function of the forums (even I myself have problems with it. I often need to search several times to find the stuff I want. So, it's a bit rude to ask the posters something like "Why don't you search the forums? There are LOTS of threads about this issue!", unless the related threads are so obviously that, like they are on the first page of that forum).
So, in these cases I'll recommend people to answer with more details, like for example simple instructions or links to manual topics or related threads. If you don't have useful information other than "RTFM", please don't post. :P

Quote from: Gilbet V7000a on Sat 11/10/2008 19:04:20On the other hand, it does spawn some interesting discussion.

I'm always up for a good spawning... ::)

You definitely make some valid points Gilberot. Unfortunately (or fortunately for you all as the case may be) I don't have time to contest and laugh at them. I have to go to work. :=

Ultimately if this thread never helps anybody I could deal with that, but as you said, it has created some interesting discussion. Much better than that "AGS has becomez t3h boring" thread...

Quote from: Gilbet V7000a on Sat 11/10/2008 19:04:20
Unlike some other creation suites, AGS is actually not initially friendly to everyone. In some programmes you can do simple stuff by just moving keywords, filling in boxes or moving sliders just by mouse clicks or the drag and drop method, while in AGS it is impossible to do much without writing text scripts. (Well, starting from AC era, there were indeed attempts in making the editor simple for beginners to do simple stuff. First the graphical script editor, then the interaction editor. But as it took a lot of effort to make them really usable, and they were unable to coop with the speedy development of AGS itself, so both attempts failed.)
The learning curve is quite steep for beginners to start using AGS, especially for those who have little or no programming experience.

I had very little programming experience, but going through the tutorials pretty much got me started, resulting in two games (which are bugfests, okay, but they are games and even use non-standard GUIs), so I think the initial post has quite a point. Reading the tutorials (and following it's steps in the editor) is really helpful and should already give answers to "how do I change rooms?" and "how do I use objects?" questions.

But it's true that the 3.0 build ist quite complicated for beginners: I would advise a newbie to start with 2.72 and then switch when he thinks he's ready.

It's sometimes difficult for advanced users to understand where novices are coming from, and vice-versa.  I've been programming off and on for over 10 years, so picking up AGS was pretty rudimentary and I only needed to refer to the help file or an occasional search on the forums for something esoteric.  For a novice, I imagine it's a much more baffling situation, and they are usually only interested at the novice stage in the end result rather than the journey; that is, they want results quickly to inspire them to continue, and as a result they tend to ask a lot of simple questions.

Simple questions don't bother me in the least, and I think my track record in CL and the tech forum for helping people shows I take a rather kid-gloves approach.  What does bother me, though (and many other advanced users) are people who seek only the end result of the AGS editor (the game) and want everyone else to hold their hand through every step of the way. 

This behavior doesn't work in your day to day life unless you're very very rich, so why should you expect it to work on the internet?  The smart answer is you shouldn't, and therefore should make an effort to search both the beginner's and primary tech forums for issues that 80% of other people have probably already had resolved, and when that fails look to the help file.  Making a post shouldn't be your first thought, it should be your last after you've exhausted the other options available.  Exercising this kind of behavior eliminates much of the vitriol thrown at new posters by some of the less-patient members of the community and makes you look like you're not the type of person to waste anyone's time.


As far as changing the forum sign up test and such, I really can't agree with your points, abstauber.  You seem to be passing off your experiences as though they happen to a great many new people rather than just you, and that's a mistake.  We've had very few complaints about the sign up system over the years, in fact, and that's something you might consider.

QuoteAnd now even more newbie bashing and elite encapsulation? Seriously... this is not what a "community" needs.

I don't mean this to sound 'elitist' or mean in any way, but who are you to tell us what the community does and does not need?  You're still rather new around here, and making statements like this as though you've been here for years  (statements I don't agree with, actually) make you appear rather standoffish and domineering.  My advice is to sit back, relax, and take this forum far less seriously -- and demand less of it.

Quote from: ProgZmax on Sun 12/10/2008 08:41:48
I don't mean this to sound 'elitist' or mean in any way, but who are you to tell us what the community does and does not need?

I'm pretty much aware of the fact, that I'm new around here ;)
Therefore I meant a community, not this one in particular. It could also been this language barrier - if my statement, apart from that "community missunderstanding", sound snobbish, it was not meant to.
But as a direct answer: I actually work in the web business, so I might be a little sensitive to these thing. But yes, running a community in spare time is completely different from working with paying customers.

Anyway the point was, that getting started with AGS could be much easier. And instead of spending time in creating even more restriction, that time would've better been spend in something helpful. Like a new knowledge base or whatsoever.

QuoteI'm totally fine with the introduction page, it's just the conjunction of all three of these.

Yeah, I can appreciate that. As I say, the PM was not an official forum thing, it looks like one of our members has taken it upon himself to send that out.

QuoteDon't get me wrong (and I hope you're still reading), but the main website is in a desperate need of an overhaul. Broken links, more than outdated knowledge base (even from the days when I've been around), a bug tracker, that had no public tickes in 2 years. Even the main layout feels dated.

Thanks for your feedback, it's always good to hear what a fresh pair of eyes thinks about these things. Where are the broken links by the way?

I agree about the outdated Knowledge Base, and probably linking to it from the Forums page is not a good idea since it's not very relevant any more, so I'll remove that link.

Quote4) Revisits the site: "What? last layout change in 2004? Knowledge base articles from 2001?

Good points. The "Last layout change 2004" text is completely unnecessary and does make the site seem dated, so I've removed it. As for the KB, I've removed the link from the Forums page and need to consider where to take it in future.

QuoteThis This is my favourite btw

Hehe well spotted thanks, I've fixed those images.

QuoteThe learning curve is quite steep for beginners to start using AGS, especially for those who have little or no programming experience.
Also, I think the move to OO style scripting does not help much in this division. It does help people to have more organised codes, especially for development in larger scales, but it in fact complicates stuff for newbies who just want to start simple.
The move to more like a professional development environment since V3 may also scare some people away, but it is inevitable as AGS has become more and more powerful and complicated with time.

This is one area where I think densming's video tutorials are really useful. A movie is worth a thousand words and as a newbie I think most people will pick things up a lot more quickly by watching someone else doing it, than by reading loads of text in the standard tutorials.

QuoteI don't mean this to sound 'elitist' or mean in any way, but who are you to tell us what the community does and does not need?  You're still rather new around here, and making statements like this as though you've been here for years

Haha Progz, you do realise that abstauber made Alles Euro, one of the first ever AGS games, back in 2000 (or was it 2001)?  ;D

Quote from: abstauber on Sun 12/10/2008 10:07:01
Anyway the point was, that getting started with AGS could be much easier. And instead of spending time in creating even more restriction, that time would've better been spend in something helpful. Like a new knowledge base or whatsoever.

Yes, but time spent constantly updating the website and the knowledge base and the like, could be better spent working the bugs out of the AGS editor, or planning a new version of the engine.

This constant belief that people are stupid and need everything spelled out in big simple sentences is precisely what's wrong with the world in general, as far as I'm concerned; a blanket "dumbing-down" of every facet of our lives.

People who come to this community wanting to make a game, any game, and want to put the effort in, will take the time to look at the manual or read the actively updated version of the Getting Started With AGS tutorial (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/acintro.htm) that's available to anyone who bothers to click on the link to it. People who persist in moaning "How do I make a character???!" or "What's a baseline!!?" are time wasters, as once you answer their question they'll reply with "Okay. What's a walk-behind?!!!". Why take time out of our own lives to accommodate this tiny percentage of people? Are we some sort of gobshite outreach program?

This hippy mentality that basic common sense, or want of any measure of responsibility, is to be decried as elitism or snobbish behavior, is usually held by people who have no intention of working to fix the problem themselves. These forums are clean and organised and free from the shite that plagues a lot of online communities. There's a reason for that. We have good moderators; people who aren't interested in calling people newbs and handing down bans and thread locks when the mood takes them. We have a friendly community (and one that largely respects itself), as evidenced by our help forums and critics lounge: RTM answers, acceptable or not, are usually only used in reply to questions like those above. And we have a slightly more secure form of registration than most.

If we had a simple "Username+Email address = You're in!" method of joining, I'm sure we'd enjoy being knee-deep in cock-pill ads and links to xxxFATDATEONLINExxx.

Updates to the front page aside, where precisely is the problem?

The website does need an overhaul, but that isn't greatly important.

On the other hand, I think we should:

A. Revise the quiz.
B. Ensure that new members KNOW about the forum rules, stickies, the AGS wiki and the helpfile.

Wouldn't life be easier if every newcomer introduced themselves in the newcomer thread and then they all fit in perfectly using good grammar, expert spelling and the utmost amount of politeness?

How to do this without sounding aggresive, however... :-\

Maybe we should knock up a short AGS game in which facts and the framework of the community are explained.

"New to AGS? Play this game before you start to find out about the engine and the community" certainly doesn't sound aggressive. Any unemployed social education workers with extensive AGS scripting knowledge around?

No, but seriously: Why not add a short and friendly text to the forums front page, to introduce the community to people who are considering to register? Like, mention all the cool things there are and then explain the conditions.

I know that some people might now argue that the AGS forums don't have to suck up to nobody and if you don't like what you see, tough luck - but this is a really friendly community, why not tell it on the front page?

QuoteHaha Progz, you do realise that abstauber made Alles Euro, one of the first ever AGS games, back in 2000 (or was it 2001)?

I realize that, but I don't really equate age of a member's account with being a long-standing member; I save that for people who regularly contribute to the forum, and it seems that he's just now becoming really active. 

Hell, I had an account back that far on ezboard when I was making some shitty Monkey Island remake, and back then I think I had exactly two posts.  I'd hardly consider myself an 'active member' before, say, mid-2003 when I actually started participating in the forums and not being a random/lurker.  That was my point, really.

QuoteNo, but seriously: Why not add a short and friendly text to the forums front page, to introduce the community to people who are considering to register? Like, mention all the cool things there are and then explain the conditions.

I suppose the main question is, do we have a problem with too many rowdy newbies at the moment?
I'd say no we don't; if anything, the forums are a lot quieter than they used to be.

So then, do we have a problem with appearing unfriendly and putting off people from joining?
I don't know.

The thing is that most of us commenting in this thread are fairly long-standing members, and so rather than discussing it between us, it would probably be far more useful to listen to people who have signed up recently to judge whether there is any problem that we should be addressing. If any more of you "newbies" are reading, it'd be great to hear from you.

@ProgZmax:
can they still be friends, even if he has not been active? ;)

However, it's quite interesting that a RTFM discussion brings up so much emotions.

As for the knowledge base:
How about a query on all <solved> threads in the beginner and technical forum. Or maybe a nice mod adds the keyword "KB" to the title of a helpful thread and these are getting summarized.
But how do I know? I'm just the new kid...  :P (sorry, could not resist)

slightly offtopic: website bugs
User World map doesn't work
one the front page resources->downloads  is not shown, but it appears on other pages.
fonts download is broken (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/scifonts.zip)
Mac runtime beta is gone (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/mac/AGS271beta3b.dmg)

I think the best thing on the forum and website is the top montage banner displaying the AGS games by the community.  It really helps show what AGS is capable of and helps inspire newcomers.  It's something I enjoyed looking at (getting old now with no new updates).  Having the one in the forum randomize should spark up an interesting challenge thread, where members make montages of their own games, or combining games as they are now.

Perhaps a challenge thread for making the new website layout.  The winner getting a recognizable trophy for their forum signature.  Everyone loves trophies :P.
I know that quite a few people in this community make some sick website designs.  I remember seeing a few CL threads on some recently by Nacho and TerranRich.

Also when I first came here in December and jumped the hurdles (aka: the fort knox initiation quiz)--I felt it was a little unexpected, but I understood why it was there and how it was needed.

Perhaps a little "CONGRATULATIONS! You are now a certified, trained and welcomed AGS forums member" message should be the end result once passing the quiz. :P lol  Kinda like a little pat on the back and some bubbly to celebrate your victory over passing the quiz.  Showing that we're not hard-asses, but we do have simple rules.

Quotecan they still be friends, even if he has not been active?

If by this you mean can you and I be friends, I bear no animosity towards you.  I just (understandably, I hope) get somewhat annoyed when people join up and start posting stuff like 'this needs changing, do this instead'.  It's like going into a new neighbor's house and telling them their furniture taste is horrible.  You can get away with that when you've known the family for awhile, but initially it just rubs people the wrong way :).

QuoteAs for the knowledge base:
How about a query on all <solved> threads in the beginner and technical forum. Or maybe a nice mod adds the keyword "KB" to the title of a helpful thread and these are getting summarized.

Interesting idea, something like this could work. I think the main aim of the knowledgebase was to document any long-standing bugs or "features" that weren't going to be fixed any time soon, and as a reference for "How-to" type articles (though that has been superseded by tutorials, really).

QuoteUser World map doesn't work

AGA/scotch, what's the current state of this?

Quotefonts download is broken (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/scifonts.zip)

Thanks, now fixed.

QuoteMac runtime beta is gone (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/mac/AGS271beta3b.dmg)

Hehe yes, I forgot that this was hosted on the AGS server when we moved servers, and then I realised I didn't actually have a copy of it to re-upload. If anyone can post a copy, that'd be great!

QuoteHaving the one in the forum randomize should spark up an interesting challenge thread, where members make montages of their own games, or combining games as they are now.

Well, it already does randomize. Not on every page load, because your browser will cache it for a while, but you should see it change now and then.

And yes, we did have a thread for people to contribute their own montages (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=24319.0) (that's where the current ones come from) -- though it's probably a good idea to have another round of that now that time has passed and more games have been released.

QuotePerhaps a challenge thread for making the new website layout.  The winner getting a recognizable trophy for their forum signature.

Funnily enough, we did try that last year (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=31976.0) but I don't think anybody actually came up with a design in the end.
Again, there's no reason not to try again if people are interested.

I just had an interesting little idea that may be generally useful for all but especially so in the beginners thread.   It would be terribly convenient to have a link to the online help file forum's "compose post" page, right under the "How do I post images, smileys and formatting?" link?    This way it would be easy to lookup stuff when replying to someone's question and to insert a link to the relevant info in your reply.   I think there also should  be a prominent link to the help file perhaps in the forum banner or menu area.  It would also be nice it the online help file were search able as well.

If I remember right, only Darth Mandarb put any real effort towards a full redesign before, although a lot of people offered suggestions on how he should do it.

LimpingFish also made some banners that looked nice, but the outcome seemed to suggest that not enough people were actually interested in helping to make it happen (or we just don't have a lot of web art developers here).

Either way, as I said last year, I think the current layout is fine but would have no problem with a different one as long as it didn't sacrifice usability.

Personally, I think a simple color change would help 'update' the forums a bit. Throw in a little bit of the dark blue that's now in the 3.0 editor. Even replacing the banner at the top to reflect the new cup graphic (or even a collection of all the cups, including the sprite0)

~Trent

Quote from: ProgZmax on Tue 14/10/2008 07:58:51
If I remember right, only Darth Mandarb put any real effort towards a full redesign before, although a lot of people offered suggestions on how he should do it.

LimpingFish also made some banners that looked nice, but the outcome seemed to suggest that not enough people were actually interested in helping to make it happen (or we just don't have a lot of web art developers here).

Yeah, that was the last time anybody really discussed the idea. Darth's design looked pretty sharp, and I mocked up those banners based on his layout. Then it all went quiet. Quite abruptly, really, after Zooty's post about Progz's sprite.

Everybody just...stopped taking about it. The AGS hive mind at work!

I've just read the registration quiz again and I gotta say, if I didn't know any better, I'd really believe it's enough to weed out most of the stupid first-timer posts I've had the pleasure to read in recent years.
The only conclusion is that people either get through it by trial and error or, much more likely, simply ignore everything as soon as they passed it.

Just sad.