Can games made with AGS be sold?

[vertigoaddict]

...I re-red the article, It was called Adventure Player Studio...right...

"Adventure Player will run adventure games that user can create themselves on a PC with software called Adventure Player Studio. Several sample Adventure Player games will ship from From, the first of which appears to be Echo Night. Sounds pretty cool!"

A quaote from the site: there's the link:

http://dreamdawn.com/sh/key_view.php?key=News

You'll have to look at the bottom though, it's pretty old. Perhaps APS was the old name for AGS? Or maybe it's just a coincidence?

EDIT: no, it's totally unrelated to AGS, it's just a coincidence.

[Gilbert]

Also, the old name for AGS was AC, Adventure Creator, so it's not APS.
There weren't many games in the AC era though, so it's safe to assume there're no commercial games in that period.

[Nikolas]

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with wanting some compensation for your hard work. If we weren't selling Super Jazz Man, from the overall viewpoint we'd be losing money (webhost costs, not to mention our time which could be spent elsewhere).

Greg, as you know it's hardly that...

As shown in a different thread sfx (good ones) cost. Same goes for sound libraries, instruments, a WACOM, a good screen, etc... all these things coincide to making better art/music... And having the best elements in a game, although not suficient alone, would justify a game being commercial...

I am somewhat "hurt" by the fact that commercial AGS attempts, are actually not supported by the AGS community. And as far as I know, all commercial attempts have been preceded by many freeware games (Dave, and Herculean Effort, don't know about the banana man, or the zone II).

Now in order to explain something:

I have a burning need to make a game (you propably seen this already). I have the story 95% ready, 70% on the puzzles, music/audio is no issue. I know 1-2 programmers, who have promised to help me, so I'm on the safe side. However in order to get the artists I need in order for the game to be what I envision it (and I'm not a kid to be fooling around), I have to pay! Same probably goes for the programmer. I would never ask anyone to waste 1-2 years of the lives for free, while I won't have the ability to put pressure on (one of the bad things in freeware games). Believe me that I would like nothing more to take on board an extra 3-4 persons, that I know can make the quality I want, and make a brilliant freeware game. But this is impossible and probably bad:
Producing a high quality freeware game, while other AGS games are being sold, creates a problem in sales.
There are very slim chances of getting someone to do such a load of work for free
There are extremely slim chances that I can find the x000$ needed to hire 2-3 artists and get the job done!
I know that AGS can pull of 95% of what I want. For the other 5% I'll have to slaughter my programmer on his desk...

Now the only solution in my head is 1: Go commercial!

I offer fees and/or percentages to get the best people on board, plus have them on contract so they won't leave midways
At first I thought that I would only want to make as much money as to get my expenses back, and actually promote the game as such, but then why should an idiot buy a game, while waiting will get it for free (after the expenses are being done)?

Of course my first problem just lies that I don't have enough time to deal with such a project, so it's more of a rant, than anything else, but at least some insight in my head, might prove helpful in this thread...

[Becky]

I am somewhat "hurt" by the fact that commercial AGS attempts, are actually not supported by the AGS community.

I would hope that people who release commercial AGS games would prefer people to buy their games out of a love of their work and a desire to play, not out of charity.

[Nikolas]

Becky, you are right, that comment of mine appears that way indeed.

But the excuse that Andail gave was what bugged me:

Interestingly, the fact that "outsiders" buy commercial AGS games to a higher degree than AGS-ers is pretty understandable.
AGS-members live in a huge symbiosis where everybody helps eachother, and where one specific creator's training ground is made up by the collection of material he's taken part of (for free); all the art, music, games, tutorials, etc.

Since I don't charge for my work in the critic's lounge (where I've provided feedback ever since the board was created - a progress I was involved in, if I'm not mistaken) I'm not going to pay people money just to support their careers as game-creators.

It is understandable, yes, but at the same time, it just feels that commercial AGS games are treate unequally with the rest...

Of course, nobody should support anyone for the meer reason that it's AGS (although in the case of Dave, it appears that it's...Dave, so it's ok), but I would expect an insider to be actually more at ease at any potential problems or faults in a game from AGS compaired to a "real commercial".

But by all means, I wouldn't want anyone buying anything out of pity! I just wish to make this clear!

[Dave Gilbert]

I would never ask anyone to waste 1-2 years of the lives for free, while I won't have the ability to put pressure on (one of the bad things in freeware games).

Yes, this is the kicker.  Enthusiasm is GREAT, and can really move things along, but when the enthusiasm dies down there has to be something to take it's place.  Usually, that something is cash.  Offering a royalty/percentage of sales isn't the best idea (at least, not by itself), because there's no guarantee that the game will get done or that it will sell incredibly well.

Being amongst the terminally short of cash, offering huge amounts of money to my team members is something of an impossibility.  The main thing I have going for me is my reputation, but that's not always enough.  So, I usually have to make some concessions. 

1 - Low res graphics.  Costs less, quicker to make, and the right artist can make them look fantastic despite the pixels.  High res graphics take longer to make, require much more time and care, and are much harder and much more expensive.  If I had the luxery of time/money, I'd go high-res, but until that happy day arrives... low res it is.

2 - Short development time.  Enthusiasm wanes, and funds are limited. 
A short development time means that there's less of a chance of a flake out, since your team knows they will see the fruits of their labors much sooner.  Yes, the game will probably be on the short side, but it does make more financial sense to release a short game every 4-6 months instead of a massive epic every 2-3 years.  Who the heck has that kind of time?

It is understandable, yes, but at the same time, it just feels that commercial AGS games are treate unequally with the rest...

In some cases, yes.  I have the greatest respect for the AGS community, and consider it my foundation.  At first, it did kind of irk me that the only people to complain about the price were AGSers.  Nobody else seemed to mind.  But, for years this was a place to get free games.  That's starting to change.  There's bound to be some criticism.

I would hope that people who release commercial AGS games would prefer people to buy their games out of a love of their work and a desire to play, not out of charity.

When your living depends on sales, you'll be totally fine with charity!

[Nikolas]

I would never ask anyone to waste 1-2 years of the lives for free, while I won't have the ability to put pressure on (one of the bad things in freeware games).

Yes, this is the kicker.  Enthusiasm is GREAT, and can really move things along, but when the enthusiasm dies down there has to be something to take it's place.  Usually, that something is cash.  Offering a royalty/percentage of sales isn't the best idea (at least, not by itself), because there's no guarantee that the game will get done or that it will sell incredibly well.

The only reason I would offer % would be the lack of funds! There is absolutely no reason to accept %, myself alone. I can certainly understand someone not having the funds to pay for my services (which can be costly for AGS games), but a combination of the two plus the person who is hiring me is enough.

What is incredible for me is that, personally, I would never consider AGS an engine to create commercial games. Simply because of the sooo many lacking features. But you, Dave, and HE, and other people, sure showed me! (and I'm not kidding here). I do have to revaluate what exactly is a commercial game, even in the indie territory, cause I really doubt any AGS game could get out and be mainstream. And this is where my blockage comes in. As I know how hard it is to accomplish some things (man, I know people who would like to kill me for what I ask of them ) in their games with AGS, I can only applaud that effort and after that, buy the game. Part of it has to do with faith. I have huge ammounts for faith for most commercial game creators in AGS, and I know that with larger funds they could do wonders (example low res vs high res, in Daves case...). It's not that he can't do it, it's that he $can't do it$. Major difference. Thus I certainly don't see my buys as charity!

[Dave Gilbert]

Regarding the commercial viability of AGS games, think of it this way.

There are movies out there that cost several hundred million dollars to make.  They have the latest effects, the hottest stars, and immense marketing power.

There are also movies that cost a few thousand dollars to make.  They can only hire smalltime actors, and can only afford basic lighting and equipment. 

Is one film more commercially viable than the other?  Becaues the indie film costs less to make, and isn't as "professional" as the high-budget one, does that mean it is worth less?

You'll still pay the same $9 to see both movies.

Why should games be any different?  Just because my games cost around $5000 to make, versus the mega billion budgets of the high-end titles, does that mean I shouldn't bother?

[alkis21]

Of course, nobody should support anyone for the meer reason that it's AGS (although in the case of Dave, it appears that it's...Dave, so it's ok), but I would expect an insider to be actually more at ease at any potential problems or faults in a game from AGS compaired to a "real commercial".

Or to put it differently, nobody should support a game for the mere reason that it's AGS, and nobody should boycott a game for the mere reason that it's AGS!

On another note Nikolas, I'm amused to see that your English spelling is as bad as your Greek one. 

[Nikolas]

On another note Nikolas, I'm amused to see that your English spelling is as bad as your Greek one. 

:'(

When I quit making tons of tpyos and misspellings, then I'll say that I was an idiot who should learn how to spell properly. For the time being it's what defines me really. :p

[lo_res_man]

I am not sure if this has been said already, but fatman was BRIEFLY for sale, and the shivah and I think another game by the same guy is for sale. just my input