I just uploaded the first test version of my game. I'd appreciate any comments.
Warning: it's work in progress (= untested and broken), missing important parts (like key dialog and most cutscenes, including the end), and so it is no fun to play.
So I'm not looking for bugs or problem areas (I can find those on my own than you!) I'm more interested in the big issue of what, in general, attracts people, what bores or confuses people, and whether it can be made to work in Linux (I don't have access to a Linux box).
Thanks in advance for any comments. More details, and download link: http://lesmisgame.blogspot.com/
Edit: I haven't added a separate zip file for Linux, but can if you wish.
Screenshots
(http://www.lesmisgame.com/images/dark_new_with_sprites.jpg)
(http://www.lesmisgame.com/images/paris_church_inside.jpg)
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Thanks.
I've added a couple of screenshots below above, but I'm not really interested in what people think of them (I'm too exhausted to change everything again!). I'm also not looking to promote the game, or give a "clear outline of the plot" as the rules require. (Though the entire plot and half the script can be downloaded here. (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/135/135.txt)
It's my own fault for not reading the rules - it's not the first time I've posted before thinking. I'm not promoting the game, I don't want feedback on art or script. I just need feedback on the new approach to gameplay (it's a new kind of game) and on how it plays on different platforms. There isn't a forum for that kind of question, hence I should not be here.
edit by darth screenshots moved to first post!
tolworthy,
I love the graphics (superb) and also like that there is lot of life in the streets.
I wish you good luck with your work
Asking for feedback on the gameplay belongs in the Critics Lounge, and is very welcome there (or ought to be, at least). I think it's great that you're getting input on the play style, and if I had time I would definitely give it a spin. Maybe a couple of weeks from now...
And although you didn't ask for it, those screenshots are great!
If this is an AGS game that is in production it belongs in here! So don't worry about that!
I, too, rather like the graphical style. (thanks for posting the screenshots so quickly)
I still don't know what you actually want us to say...
But I'd like to say I love that style and it's all put together and animated so well.
I just tested it for 2-3 minutes, but one can't say much about the gameplay when there aren't clues and descriptive cutscenes. The idea of not having a main character (I think) is okay, as long as one can solve puzzles, follow dialogs etc.
Perhaps this was too early to post, I'll test it again tomorrow.
Thumbs up for the graphics so far.
tolworthy,
I believe you are going on the right direction to make AGS games a unique thing.
I was going to bed (in Portugal is 23.30 right now) but got stuck by the title of your game and downloaded it.
I must say that I was not expecting something so beautifull,
the graphics, as everybody before me stated, are very good and adequate to Victor Hugo's work.
The texts are meaningfull and it is very nice to read because you did not put long sentences.
Congratulations!
I posted a thread on the Adventure Related... lounge where I speak about new ways of doing adventure games, and them becoming something new,
a new art form.
Thank you.
tolworthy,
First of all, the graphics are great, I love the idea of having a lot of people moving around the street, even though sometimes i focus more on those beautiful animation instead of playing the game.. :)
As for the navigation, maybe if the screen can scroll, you can change the cursor into <- (left scroll) or -> (right scroll).
Also, it's good if I can use the map to return to the place I've been before.
Maybe if I click on Paris, it'll open detailed Paris map which shown the place I've been before.
And I hope you include Eponine and Gavroche story as well in the game.. :)
Good luck with the game.. :)
Excellent graphical style and animations. Can't wait to see it with music and some clarifications in the interface which I'm sure will be in the final version, but I'm sure you're on top of that already. Ran well here, but I'm just running standard XP so that's no big shock. I pretty sure the first person mode will work well. And I know all about how tiresome it is to work on a indie game for years without no real feedback... ;)
Again, awesome style. Maybe I'll find out what Les Miserables is really about when playing it?
Edit: Only thing that turned me off was that some of the animations were a bit slow. Maybe I'm just an impatient bastard...
Thanks for the feedback. Anything at all is very welcome!
Quote from: matti on Mon 23/06/2008 22:39:16
I still don't know what you actually want us to say...
I'm interested in initial reactions, the kind of thing that makes someone interested (or not!!) in the first minute of play:
a) does it work acceptably on your system?
b) is it a real problem that the avatar is invisible? (In later games the avatar will play a greater role, but if this is a real problem I could bring them into it at an earlier point)
b) if you get bored, when did you decide to turn it off?
c) if you get confused, where was it?
d) if you felt attracted to the game, what attracted you?
e) if you decided not to download it, why not?
f) if you expected one thing and were surprised (either good or bad), why?
Any feedback on the above will be gratefully received!
I was pleasantly surprised by it really, however I turned off pretty quick as I wasn't sure what I was doing... I love the idea of an open, large game world where you observe things, yet:
This, along with the fact the 'avatar' is not visible leaves the player wondering how he/she is supposed to play the game.
I was left just randomly clicking on loads of things, whilst every single character said they 'felt watched'. I'm not sure if this would be convincing for a long period of game play. A player mainly wants direction and purpose, something which pulls them into the game world and the story.
In response again to the 'avatar' issue, a player needs identity in a game really. The idea of an observing role is an interesting one, and I think you should stick to it. However it is impossible to do this and still allow the player to have an identity/purpose, and this is what you need to achieve...
Hope all that helped. Good luck.
Thanks for the feedback. That's exactly the angle I was looking for. It's what I suspected would be the case, but I'd be interested in seeing if this is the general response.
The real reason for an invisible avatar was the scaling bug in 2.72. Smooth scaling creates a black fringe around characters. It's not noticeable on a dark background, but on a white background it makes smooth scaling unusable. The big is fixed in 3.0 (which uses a completely different method of scaling), but 3.0 does not have Linux support. So I removed Ego and rewrote the back story to make her invisible (for now: the next game will have scenes that are designed to not require scaling).
If others agree with you (as I suspect they will) then I'll need to give this a lot of hard thought. I'd probably add a scene near the beginning where ego can appear in the first person and be given some kind of quest, allowing her to be invisible for the remainder of the story. But it would take a lot of thinking, to somehow do this while still remaining faithful to the original novel.
Downloading this now. This is one of my favorite novels and I actually thought once or twice about the possibility of making a game out of it (never with any serious intentions, however). I am very glad to see that someone else has hit on the same idea and is enthusiastic enough about it to put it into execution! Those screenshots look beautiful. Can't wait to play this.
EDIT: Ok, after having dedicated perhaps half an hour or so to playing around with it, I second everything markbilly said, with a few further comments:
First off, the positive--as previously stated, the game is graphically beautiful. The text is well-written, which is pretty important to me (nothing bugs me more than a game with messy grammar and spelling, and your writing is very clear and correct). I also love that you are doing something new and different. This game has the potential to be an incredibly support for the games-as-art argument and I sincerely hope you pursue this project to completion.
Okay, now if I understand you correctly, what you really want to know are the flaws--what needs to be improved, right? If I've misunderstood and as a result come off too harsh here, I apologize (DON'T GIVE UP, THIS IS A VERY GOOD IDEA, IT JUST NEEDS SOME WORK!). Anyway, here goes:
-MAJOR ISSUES-
- As markbilly said, there is a complete lack of direction for the player, and this is very bad. I actually don't mind an invisible character but it's difficult to play a game when you have no clue what your goal is. As an example--I've got no idea what to do in that opening scene with the judge and the distressed woman. All I can figure out to do is right-click on the woman and then on the judge to get them to talk, over and over again, and they mostly just repeat themselves. When I try to use the in-game hint system (kudos for wanting to include one, btw), it says "The Conventionary might give you a clue" and teleports me instantly to some library scene in which I have even less success than before figuring out what I'm supposed to do.
- The controls and general gameplay are difficult to figure out. What this game REALLY needs is some kind of manual to explain how to play the game. Like markbilly, I found myself randomly clicking all over the place and basically getting nowhere.
- Navigation has one serious flaw: Each time you enter a new screen, you have no idea where you came from to get to that screen or which exit goes back. This could be easily solved with 2 features: first, show somewhere (My own preference would be the bottom of the screen) the title of the place where the character is, and keep place names consistent. In other words, give a specific area the title "South Side of the River", display that title when the player is there, and make EVERY exit in other rooms that leads to that place say the same thing on the hotspot--"South Side of the River". Secondly, it doesn't hurt to have a little arrow object pointing to the exit that leads back to the last area the player was in. If you're worried about this being intrusive, make the arrow invisible until the player presses a certain key, and when that key is pressed, the arrow appears. As it stands right now, navigating my way through Paris was very frustrating because half the time I was trying to explore and was instead accidentally re-visiting old areas, and the other half the time I was trying to get back to old areas and instead getting hopelessly lost.
- The dialogue is extremely buggy. What I mean by this is that half the time, a statement that is supposed to be made by one character is seen as being made by a different one. Sometimes the character who appears to be speaking isn't even connected in any way to the one who's supposed to be speaking--at one point, I double-clicked a person to hear their thoughts, and the screen actually scrolled to the other side of the area in order to display a completely different character's thoughts.
- The game needs some kind of audio component. Appropriate music would be great or, alternatively, ambient sounds that match the visible environment. The passive-observer mode is an interesting new idea, but I think you will find that without at least something to listen to, people will get bored.
-MINOR ISSUES-
-I have no idea how to leave the initial scene (with the judge and the distressed woman) other than by jumping out to the map. Once I do so, I can't find my way back to that scene no matter what I do.
-I tried to "tint" the distressed woman, curious to see what this would do. All it did was turn her into a black sillouette--no matter which color I picked.
-The screen-scrolling is not intuitive--half the time I'm not sure if I've scrolled the screen as far as it will go or not. Some sort of out-of-the-way indicator that there is more scenery to the right or left (perhaps a small arrow on either side of the screen?) would easily fix this.
-BOTTOM LINE-
The big big problem that you need to fix here is the fact that the player has no idea what he/she is trying to do and, compounding this, has trouble figuring out how to do anything. As I said before, some sort of manual would go most of the way towards overcoming this. If you're leery of that particular task, I'd be more than happy to help! And more clues or even overt statements of what the actual goal is will go the rest of the way.
This game has incredible potential! I am very, very impressed with the size of the game world, the graphics and animation, and the innovative new approach to game creation. PLEASE do not be discouraged by any of my criticism, which was only offered because this game has so many good qualities that I've become very interested in seeing it succeed.
Quote from: Storygamer on Wed 25/06/2008 20:53:31I second everything markbilly said
That's very good, as it gives me a clear direction.
The next test version will have three main changes:
1. A new intro, where you meet Ego, and the goal etc. are made very clear. I'm really pleased with how this intro is going - it should give a very strong direction to the game.
2. The main clues will be in place (that's what I was planning to do anyway). This still won't be ALL the dialog, but it will be the most important stuff.
3. An improved map, so you more easily jump to different places in Paris (once you've been there). That was the easiest part, I added that yesterday.
Quote from: markbillyI was left just randomly clicking on loads of things, whilst every single character said they 'felt watched'.
When every characters says "I'm being watched" what you're seeing is the first topic in the default "nothing else to say" dialog, when the user clicks on the wrong person. When the clues and others stuff are ready then that will only be a very small part of the mix.
Quote from: Storygamer on Wed 25/06/2008 20:53:31Okay, now if I understand you correctly, what you really want to know are the flaws--what needs to be improved, right?
Please!
Quote from: Storygamer on Wed 25/06/2008 20:53:31- As markbilly said, there is a complete lack of direction for the player, and this is very bad. I actually don't mind an invisible character but it's difficult to play a game when you have no clue what your goal is.
Thanks. This is obviously very important! (Wasn't it number one on Ron Gilbert's famous top ten list or something?) I think I was trying to be too "clever" (in a bad way), making the main character a mystery, and making gameplay something to discover. Hopefully the new intro will go a long way to fixing that.
Quote from: Storygamer on Wed 25/06/2008 20:53:31When I try to use the in-game hint system (kudos for wanting to include one, btw), it says "The Conventionary might give you a clue" and teleports me instantly to some library scene in which I have even less success than before figuring out what I'm supposed to do.
Hopefully that sort of thing will become clearer as the dialog is tightened up.
The hardest part of the game is the very first part, as everything is so new. And it deals with the most complex situation (nineteen years, five major characters, events that are not in the original book, or rather, are only barely hinted at, oh and the Napoleonic wars!) I may need to make that part super easy just to give users a reason to continue.
Quote from: Storygamer on Wed 25/06/2008 20:53:31What this game REALLY needs is some kind of manual to explain how to play the game.
That's interesting. The gameplay is actually much simpler than other games (there are only two possible actions: double click for info, or right click-right click to combine any person with anything, anywhere in the game). But I didn't make it very clear, or why it matters. It's summarized in one paragraph in the help page, but I'll need to make it a lot clearer. Actually, I think this may be more a result of the general lack of direction, so should be greatly improved by the new intro and adding clues.
Quote from: Storygamer on Wed 25/06/2008 20:53:31Give a specific area the title "South Side of the River", display that title when the player is there, and make EVERY exit in other rooms that leads to that place say the same thing on the hotspot--"South Side of the River".
I'll do that.
Quote from: Storygamer on Wed 25/06/2008 20:53:31Make the arrow invisible until the player presses a certain key, and when that key is pressed, the arrow appears.
Good idea. I'll do that too.
Quote from: Storygamer on Wed 25/06/2008 20:53:31half the time, a statement that is supposed to be made by one character is seen as being made by a different one. ... at one point, I double-clicked a person to hear their thoughts, and the screen actually scrolled to the other side of the area in order to display a completely different character's thoughts.
Sorry about that. I appreciate you putting up with that. That's one of those things that looks big to the user, but code wise is pretty minor (I think!) so I won't be worrying too much about that until later. At this stage, I'm more concerned with the general direction (what are we trying to do) rather than whether it runs smoothly.
Quote from: Storygamer on Wed 25/06/2008 20:53:31The game needs some kind of audio component. Appropriate music would be great
Music will be a VERY big part of the final game experience. But it won't be added until near the end of the testing process.
Quote from: Storygamer on Wed 25/06/2008 20:53:31-MINOR ISSUES-I can't find my way back to that scene no matter what I do.
That should be solved by your excellent arrows idea.
Quote from: Storygamer on Wed 25/06/2008 20:53:31I tried to "tint" the distressed woman, curious to see what this would do. All it did was turn her into a black sillhouette--no matter which color I picked.
That's an unsupported feature :) But I suppose I should add some kind of instructions before the game is released.
Quote from: Storygamer on Wed 25/06/2008 20:53:31-The screen-scrolling is not intuitive--half the time I'm not sure if I've scrolled the screen as far as it will go or not.
That's interesting. The way it's supposed to work is, it either scrolls or it doesn't. And that's how you know. I'll be interested to see if people have the same comment after the arrows are added.
Thanks again for the feedback. It looks like I have plenty to be going on with. To summarize, the next test version will have:
1. Improved map (done)
2. Arrow option to tell where you are/where you can go (I'll add that today)
3. New intro sequence (should get that roughly finished tomorrow)
4. Main clue dialog added (should take about another week)
Thanks for your patience!
a) does it work acceptably on your system?
Yes.
b) is it a real problem that the avatar is invisible? (In later games the avatar will play a
greater role, but if this is a real problem I could bring them into it at an earlier point)
Yes. If your goal is to immerse people into this world, they definitely need to 'see' who they are and be able to physically interact with people. Right now the game plays like a slideshow where you, as God, listen in on conversations rather than directly pose questions to people. This dissassociated me from the narrative quite early on, in fact, and while I greatly enjoyed the writing I couldn't help but feel that this was no game at all.
b) if you get bored, when did you decide to turn it off?
When I realized that your design has ambitions beyond its capability. You're basically trying to make Les Miserables into a playable narrative, but at the same time you're almost trying to do a simulation of France where you can wander everywhere. The drawback of this is that many, many of these screens hold no value to the player at all and many of them have no interactivity. Scaling back the rooms and general design would eliminate some of this, though you really should consider either:
A) Removing hotspots like 'tea kettle, sign, bottles' if there is no way to interact with them at all
or
B) Taking on the massive task of giving all of these things at least some level of interaction, even if it is a detailed description like ("The tea kettle appears to have seen much use through the years: the copper bottom is scarred black by the open flame and many dents marr its surface."). Things of this nature will at least provide some reward.
c) if you get confused, where was it?
When the game AUTOMATICALLY whisked me away from the conversation at the beginning for clicking on the hint. I could not return to the place and the ponderous ramblings of the guy at the library did nothing to help me. I really see no connection between 20 lines of diatribe about Napoleon to a woman trying to get her brother out of prison. We definitely need some physical interaction with this character beyond listening to his ramblings. The tried and true question and answer system of adventure games would be of great use here.
d) if you felt attracted to the game, what attracted you?
The dialogue and overall presentation are very appealing. I like the idea of delving into a novel and moving through the narrative as a player who can influence the events, but I don't think you're handling it as well as you could. I certainly would recommend placing a real character in these locations that represents the player who may question these people directly instead of listening in on their conversations like an omniscient being. A perfect example of what I see wrong with the game came when I visited the back alley and started listening to the man by the blacksmith, who actually singled me out as hiding behind a glass screen and manipulating him with my fingers. This unsubtle reference to it all being a game further detached me from a world you are clearly trying to immerse people into.
e) if you decided not to download it, why not?
f) if you expected one thing and were surprised (either good or bad), why?
I didn't have any expectations, actually. I saw the youtube video you posted of it awhile ago and was impressed by the amount of effort you were putting forth, and that is what made me decide to download it. As far as things I did not like, I mentioned them already, but there are many things I believe are going for the game as well, both visually and in the writing.
I think your main goals should be to scale back the design (number of areas) to places that either link you to areas of value or are areas of value themselves. In other words, I didn't see a point in wandering in the forest (because there seemed to be nothing to do there). Also, some of the screens have illogical exits, like when I enter a room from the left and clicking on the right of the screen returns me to the left room, this often confused me.
As far as the room scrolling goes, I think you could handle it better by having the screen slide left or right when your mouse sits at either extreme for a certain length of time. You could keep the existing system as well, but this would allow people to quickly see if there is more to an area or not.
Overall, I think you've taken on a very ambitious project here and it shows in some of the shortcomings, but I think with some adjustments you will have a very interesting and memorable experience!
Thanks for your feedback. It's very much appreciated.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Thu 26/06/2008 13:52:31
If your goal is to immerse people into this world, they definitely need to 'see' who they are and be able to physically interact with people.
Actually my goal isn't to immerse people in the world, but to provide a way to explore ideas. But that is a whole other topic. Regarding the need for a visible avatar, the new intro will go a long way to solving that problem.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Thu 26/06/2008 13:52:31
Right now the game plays like a slideshow where you, as God, listen in on conversations rather than directly pose questions to people.
This is largely because most of the dialog is not yet in the game. Once the clues and secondary clues are in place, it will become more obvious that most of the conversations are in fact puzzles. Once the combination dialog is in place (what happens when you click on A then B) it will be mnore obious that you can ask questions, but not directly.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Thu 26/06/2008 13:52:31many, many of these screens hold no value to the player at all and many of them have no interactivity.
Again, that will change when the dialog is all in place. Almost every scene, and over half of the objects are essential to the game. And everything will be combinable with everything.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Thu 26/06/2008 13:52:31
Removing hotspots like 'tea kettle, sign, bottles' if there is no way to interact with them at all
As Is aid, the 'look at' code will make everything interactive. One of the many reasons for the invisible avatar is to make the game MORE interactive. You will be able to combine any character (there are 300 in the game) with any character or any object (80 scenes multiplied by up to 15 hotspots).
Quote from: ProgZmax on Thu 26/06/2008 13:52:31
c) if you get confused, where was it?
When the game AUTOMATICALLY whisked me away from the conversation at the beginning for clicking on the hint. I could not return to the place
That problem should be largely solved by the various improvements suggested by Storygamer and others. Better map, optional arrows, more consistent naming, etc.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Thu 26/06/2008 13:52:31
the ponderous ramblings of the guy at the library did nothing to help me.
Those will make more sense when the other dialog is in place. And with the new intro to give the game more context. And I'm also thinking of having three buttons on the helpp page for three levels of clues: hints (as at present), strong hints (where the character says plainly "I need to see X") and handholding hints ("right click on A then right click on B").
Quote from: ProgZmax on Thu 26/06/2008 13:52:31
some of the screens have illogical exits, like when I enter a room from the left and clicking on the right of the screen returns me to the left room
I'm sure the game has hundreds of bugs like that. At this stage fixing one bug usually creates two more in unexpected places. I'll focus on fixing the many small bugs after the big stuff is done. (They are small from the technical point of view, not necessarily small for the poor long suffering end user's point of view!) I'm really grateful to you being patient enough to spend so much time on it.
Probably the best thing now is for me to work on the big stuff (the four items noted earlier) and see if that reduces the big problems. I'll then upload another test version for anyone generous enough to give it another quick look.
Thanks again.
Hey, thanks for taking my criticism in the light it was intended! I was a bit worried I was coming off too harsh. I really am excited to play your final product here, and only partly because this is my favorite book.
The main reason I wanted to post again though was to very respectfully disagree with two of ProgZMax's well-thought-out remarks (and when I say "respectfully", I mean that very much, as I know from experience he is an excellent game designer).
First, the invisible avatar: I don't feel an invisible avatar "disconnects" the character from the game. A perfect example is the "Myst" series of games--not only does one never once see the protagonist, one never even learns anything about him/her (to this day we don't know whether the protagonist is a man or a woman). Rather than disassociating players from the game, this had the opposite effect of helping players put themselves directly into it by bypassing the "middle-man" of a third-person protagonist. If anything will disconnect players from the game, it's their role as a semi-active observer--but I wouldn't change that either, as it is probably the most innovative and original concept of the game design. A disconnected feeling is just the drawback you will have to deal with--the unavoidable price of trying something new, different, and brave.
Secondly, I disagree that the game has ambitions beyond its capability. Yes, you're trying to make Les Miz into a game. Yes, you're also trying to create an artistic simulation of France at the time of the novel. No, doing that is not impossible so long as you're willing to dedicate the time and effort--and what you've already provided shows that you ARE willing to. However, I do agree with ProgZMax that non-interactive hotspots should not exist. I'm a player who likes having lots of hotspots on the screen, but not if I can't even produce a message out of them. The hotpots don't have to be essential to the game goal, but clicking them should at least do SOMETHING.
I think one of the most important things for you to do for this game to succeed is to let players know beforehand what to expect. This game is a very different experience even from most other adventure games--in fact I personally don't even classify it as an adventure game, or put it in any existing genre, for that matter. Players need to understand right from the start that their role will be as an invisible god-like observer who nudges things in one direction or another rather than the more direct interaction of other games. All of this can be done quite easily in either a manual or in the introduction you're working on.
I was never drawn into Myst or Myst-like games, so there are definitely two crowds of game players to consider with that sort of position.
All I can say is thanks again for the comments. There probably isn't much point in asking for further comment until the next test version is ready, which will hopefully address the main issues. I hope to have it online in the first week in July.
[EDIT: this original link in this post is now redundant: see further down for updated link]
Particular questions:
1. This setup installs to a different folder from before. Does Vista still need admin privileges? Does it install on Win9x?
2. I've also uploaded a simple zipped version (http://www.enterthestory.com/testgame/Enter%20The%20Story.zip). Does it work in the Linux AGS engine?
3. As before, the BIG TWO QUESTIONS are: what about the game makes you want to play more?
4. ... and what makes you lose interest and play less?
Please note, as before that this is NOT COMPLETE and it is NOT POLISHED. I cannot guarantee that it will work at all! The dialog is rough. There is no music. Most of the 'look at' objects don't respond with much. Characters' idling animations are too fast. Most clues and cutscenes (after the first part) are still not there. And so on and on. But at this stage I'm more concerned with the general direction: creating a strong foundation on which to build.
If the response to this version is good then I'll settle down to adding content, and future test versions will not be public. If the response is not so good then I'll keep improving it until the response IS good.
What's different with this version:
A.
The first part is fully playable, sort of. That is, parts 1-7 out of 180. Actually the whole thing is playable if you are VERY determined (and make liberal use of Ctrl-O and Ctrl-P, which will not be available in the final version), but only the first little bit has all the regular clues and stuff. Basically up to when Jean Valjean leaves jail.
B.
There's a new intro and you get to see the central character, Peri. Hopefully it should be easier to see who you are and what you're supposed to do. :)
C.
There's a new help system, linked to the intro (you'll see what I mean when you play it). Just press F1 at any time for another clue.
D.
Navigation should be easier than before. Press the space bar at any time to see. And the map has been improved (press M).
E.
Most of the time since the last test version was spent on tidying up behind-the-scenes code. All the delays are due to silly little bugs that are incredibly tedious to track down. I'm a VERY slow programmer (coding does not come naturally to me!) so you might not see a huge difference in functionality. Or maybe you'll see a big difference - I can't remember how much was working on the previous version.
F.
And there are various other little bits and pieces. Like rewriting the help page, fixing the tinting easter egg thingy, making it easier to hit ESCAPE to skip stuff, and so on.
A note to Les Miserables purists.
This game tries to stay close to the book. Unfortunately, the first part of the game (the bit you can play here) is where I've had to make the twist the story a bit. I haven't actually CHANGED anything, but have focused on characters who have very minor roles in the book. I've given them tasks that I think are representative of what Hugo was saying, even if they don't do exactly what is in the book.
The problem is that the book starts with about ten chapters where nothing dramatic happens, and later has flashbacks to the battle of Waterloo, which is VERY dramatic, and is one of those things I did not want to ignore since it's obviously important to Victor Hugo, but it would be VERY time consuming to animate a big battle. So I hope you can forgive me for the approach I've taken.
I haven't actually changed anything, but I've stretched a few things: like turning one of Valjean's sister's children into the main character, and inventing a little scheme of Napoleon's that is there to represent several things that Hugo wrote, even though the exact scheme itself may not have been historical. The alternative was to completely ignore Napoleon, but he's important to Hugo so he's important to me.
After Valjean's release the book doesn't present as many problems, so the game will follows the story more closely.
One last minor technical question: I'm curious to know. When you start the game up (especially if started up straight from setup) do you see an ordinary mouse over the screen? The mouse should be invisible for the intro sequence. If you can see a mouse on the opening animation it means you don't have control over the game, you can't hit 'escape' or anything and that's frustrating. Minimize the window (I assume you see it in a window at the start?) then restore it and you have control over the game. It's one of those little things I'll need to look into for later.
Thanks in advance for any feedback.
The setup files are corrupted. Could you fix that?
Quote from: Cyrus on Tue 22/07/2008 12:53:37
The setup files are corrupted. Could you fix that?
[edit] they were still uploading. They're uploaded now, and they seem to download OK as far as I can tell.
The latest test version (the final public test version) is here. (http://enterthestory.com/testgame/setup.exe) Judging by the deafening silence after the last test version I'm probably doing something horribly wrong. But that's never stopped me before.
Edit: More details and known bugs (such as the need to remove the colon: in the install path) are on the daily blog. (http://lesmisgame.blogspot.com)
I was impressed with what you had last time, and by what you wanted to improve on so I'll check it out... Downloading now! :)
I'll check this out and tell you what I think.. but actually I do believe that the intro is a little bit too long, but this is based on the first version you put up here a long time ago, so I'll just re-check.
Thanks. Any suggestion for how to change the intro? Just open with one of the three intro segments and trigger the others depending on user actions?
tolworthy!
A superb game. And for me the introduction is not too long. Goes well with the story telling.
I found two things that didn't work out as expected
heaven
Spoiler
at a few occasions, Puri moves the mouth and speaks out sentences, that seem to belong to Victor
operator
Spoiler
I clicked once on the operator at the guilloutine, and after the second sentence, the screen switched to the inside of the church that is close to the river in Paris. I didn't click then.
Keep up the good work!
It's the first time I played this work-in-progress and while it's obviously far from finished I love what I see. I thought the intro was the right length, though it stopped at a weird point.
I love how populated the city is and feels and how you can click your way around, it's probably the closest what I've seen to an interactive novel so far. The interactive part, though.......there are many hotspots, but you can't do anything with them, except for the exits obviously.
I don't have any avatar on earth or am I just controlling the ghost of the dead child? It's not clear to me.
I'm also not sure if the dialogues feel quite right to me.
All I can say is that this game shows a lot of potential.
Quote from: Ozzie on Mon 13/10/2008 02:40:04there are many hotspots, but you can't do anything with them, except for the exits obviously.
Yes, the "look at" dialog is at an early stage. When it's more polished I hope it will be more clear: instead of having several verbs (look at, pick up, etc.) and several inventory items, we instead have lots of people (pretty close to the max of 300) and a lot of other people and hotspots. So there's actually more potential for interaction than in other games, but not in the usual way. The idea is to suggest ideas to different people and hope they do what you want. For example, instead of "open door with key" you find someone who might want to get through a door, draw their attention to the key then draw their attention to the door. They should then have a Homer Simpson "d'oh" moment when they think "of course, yes, that's the answer" and go and do it. On the other hand they may not WANT to go through the door. I like the idea of respecting the characters' freedom like that, and having to get to know their individual wants and needs rather than treating them like puppets. But I think it will only work when the dialog is more complete and more polished so the characters start to feel like real people.[/quote]
Quote from: Ozzie on Mon 13/10/2008 02:40:04I don't have any avatar on earth or am I just controlling the ghost of the dead child? It's not clear to me.
Yes, I need to make that clearer. It's the ghost. I needed to do it that way because a lot of novels rely on having different people be totally alone, and in novels they don't always do what you want them to do. I couldn't do that is the user had control over the visible character, but the "ghost who tries to help them but they don't know the ghost is there" idea seemed to work in theory.
Quote from: sthomannch on Sun 12/10/2008 19:01:03hidden bugs
Thanks. I've been finding a few of the first kind as well. Conversations are separated by a '$' or a '@' depending on who spoke first, and sometimes I forget. I'll need to pay more attention :) The second bug is more interesting. From a technical point of view, the guillotine operator is a complicated (his head and body are actually separate characters) so there might be something unexpected happening. I'll look into it. Thanks.
First of all, I must say that I really admire your dedication. I've followed the development blog for quite a while now, and you must certainly be one of the most efficient AGS developers. You also have amazing drawing style - and you've actually managed to transfer the characters into the game world without losing the hand drawn feel. I'm also very impressed with the coding of the crowd movement: it feels like a bustling city, not like traditional background characters walking around randomly without any sense of direction.
Unfortunately I don't have time to play through much of the game, but I've tried a couple of the betas, and the addition of a ghostly player character has helped immensely on the game's immersion. Such a simple change and yet the gameplay mechanics now make total sense and I feel that I have a mission to accomplish. Wonderful thinking outside the box.
However, I still find the interaction quite cumbersome. Without very good hints you risk the game ending up like one huge pixel hunt where you try making every character think about every object in every room of the game. It doesn't really help that you need to go to a different room (and navigate there - something I'm still having trouble with) to make a character think about objects elsewhere.
A couple of suggestions:
1) Please consider making the screen scroll automatically when the cursor nears the edge of the screen. Having to click to scroll the screen doesn't feel natural when you don't have a walking player character. If you don't agree, please at least consider making the cursor change when you get near the screen edge of a scrolling room. The "show exits" button is a great help, but it also interrupts gameplay.
2) I know this is a quite major change, but instead of the cursor "remembering" what person clicked on in another room and then combining this with another hotspot elsewhere, have you considered using an "idea inventory" similar to the Blackwell games or Resonance? If for instance I clicked on the Palace of Justice it would be stored in an inventory-like list, and I could then select it an click it on people in other rooms. This would save a lot of running back and forth, I think. And also feel more logical from a story perspective (if the ghost knows about an idea, she shouldn't have to return to its hotspot to make different people think about it at different times). This all depends on how the game is scripted of course, if the hotspots and object interactions are located in the room script I guess you still have to switch to that room temporarily to activate the event.
3) Consider reducing the amount of hotspots. I don't think I would even spend time making characters think about the railing around a grave. This should also eliminate some work as well as the number of repeating lines (I got the same response from quite a few characters when interacting with generic background elements).
And a bug report:
I ran into a pretty consistent problem where the game seems to hang for a moment when I make a character think about the hotspot. The game pauses for a second or two while the audio stutters before the character says anything. This happened when making the man in the library think about hotspots in the same room. It could be my hardware, because I'm playing on an old 2.4 GHz Pentium 4. But I just don't see what could be so CPU intensive that it would hold up the game like this - it's just text being displayed after all.
Good luck with the project. This will definitely be one of the AGS all-time greats.
Quote from: GarageGothic on Mon 13/10/2008 16:34:22Such a simple change and yet the gameplay mechanics now make total sense and I feel that I have a mission to accomplish.
Thanks. I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking that. Small changes make such a big difference. For example, I'm reorganizing the intro again today: the change is fairly small, but I think it will make a big improvement to how people experience the game.
Quote from: GarageGothic on Mon 13/10/2008 16:34:22Without very good hints you risk the game ending up like one huge pixel hunt
The hint system is what I'm adding now. It'll make a lot more sense when the dialog is all in place, in November.
Quote from: GarageGothic on Mon 13/10/2008 16:34:22
1) Please consider making the screen scroll automatically when the cursor nears the edge of the screen.
Good idea. I'll do that.
Quote from: GarageGothic on Mon 13/10/2008 16:34:22have you considered using an "idea inventory" similar to the Blackwell games or Resonance? If for instance I clicked on the Palace of Justice it would be stored in an inventory-like list, and I could then select it an click it on people in other rooms.
That's another good idea. That should be doable...
Quote from: GarageGothic on Mon 13/10/2008 16:34:223) Consider reducing the amount of hotspots. I don't think I would even spend time making characters think about the railing around a grave.
LOL - most of those "look at" statements are very generic and will be improved before release. Personally I would rather have EVERYTHING a hotspot, like in real life. So your idea of a "recently clicked hotspots" list is a good idea. The new dialog will guide people to what to click on.
Quote from: GarageGothic on Mon 13/10/2008 16:34:22the game seems to hang for a moment when I make a character think about the hotspot. ... I just don't see what could be so CPU intensive that it would hold up the game like this - it's just text being displayed after all.
That's what you think! :) That's the core story code at work, the heart of the whole project. AGS is designed to be room based, but that isn't practical for my project, so mine is story based instead. Which means when you click on anything the engine basically checks the entire story to find the appropriate response. And checks it up to nine times, for reasons that are too boring to go into. I'll need to spend time optimizing the code even more. Not looking forward to that. :)[/quote]
Thanks again for the feedback. It's been most useful.
Quote from: tolworthy on Mon 13/10/2008 18:43:14That's what you think! :) That's the core story code at work, the heart of the whole project. [...] when you click on anything the engine basically checks the entire story to find the appropriate response. And checks it up to nine times, for reasons that are too boring to go into. I'll need to spend time optimizing the code even more. Not looking forward to that. :)
Ah, I didn't realize it was this complex. Perhaps the game could provide some kind of response (audio, a pop-up icon, or the mouse cursor changing) to indicate that your interaction has been registered before running the CPU intensive functions? Also, you could add a few Wait(1) calls during the check to allow the game engine to proceed a loop and avoid the audio glitching.
I'll give you an example of something similar that I had to implement in my own hypertext module to avoid the music stuttering: I keep track of an int which is incremented by a certain number of points every time a more-or-less CPU heavy operation is called. For example, the function that writes text to the screen adds 1 point while the DynamicSprite-based "insert image with caption" function adds 10 points. At the end of each of these function calls, the total number of points is checked. If it is larger than a pre-set value, for example 50, a Wait(1) will be called. This prevents the engine from freezing up, and while the player does have to wait half a second for the full page to load, the music is fluid, the cursor can be moved around smoothly and a small animated icon (like in a web browser) shows the player that the game is processing data. The maximum points value changes with the user's chosen detail setting, so those with fast machines will still see the page almost instantly.
Quote from: GarageGothic on Tue 14/10/2008 02:02:20Perhaps the game could provide some kind of response (audio, a pop-up icon, or the mouse cursor changing) to indicate that your interaction has been registered before running the CPU intensive functions? Also, you could add a few Wait(1) calls during the check to allow the game engine to proceed a loop and avoid the audio glitching.
Excellents ideas. I'll do both.
Quote from: GarageGothic on Tue 14/10/2008 02:02:20At the end of each of these function calls, the total number of points is checked.
Does this mean AGS reads ahead and checks ALL code before the next "Wait()" before running any of it? (Otherwise you could only measure the length of a process as it was completed, so would not be able to warn users ahead of time)
Quote from: tolworthy on Tue 14/10/2008 08:04:27Does this mean AGS reads ahead and checks ALL code before the next "Wait()" before running any of it? (Otherwise you could only measure the length of a process as it was completed, so would not be able to warn users ahead of time)
I'm not sure I understand the question. Here's a simplified pseudo-code example of how I do it:
int points;
function CheckPoints() {
if (points > 50) {
Wait(1);
points = 0;
}
}
function AddText(String text) {
//do text drawing stuff
points = points + 1;
CheckPoints()
}
function AddPictureWithCaption(int graphic, String caption) {
//do picture drawing stuff
points = points + 10;
CheckPoints();
}
function RenderWebpage(int pagenum) {
if (pagenum == 1) {
AddText("First text paragraph.");
AddPictureWithCaption(40, "What a pretty picture");
AddText("Second text paragraph.");
//repeat until page is done
}
else if (pagenum == 2) {
//add content for page 2
}
//and so on
}
Well, the game at least when I first saw it was a bit overwhelming(hits the player with many details), you can make the player view the intro in segments. Example, you let the player play a bit, then cutscene, then control back to the player. Then cutscene. Just an idea. I think you've just figured it out yourself, seeing your post. Anyway, still looking forward to this.
Quote from: GarageGothic on Tue 14/10/2008 08:46:10
simplified pseudo-code example of how I do it:
Ah, that makes sense. At first I thought you had a magical way to look forward, and calculate how long a process might take before it even runs. But adding strategic "Wait(1)"s is simpler. I'm hoping to also speed up my code by replacing a lot of strings with integers. A lot of my core code involves comparing strings - I'm guessing that's a processor hog. I hope it is, anyway, since if it is then I can actually do something about it.
Quote from: Dualnames on Tue 14/10/2008 09:18:52
Well, the game at least when I first saw it was a bit overwhelming
I think that's a common response (made worse because the key dialog isn't there yet, so everyone is playing blind). The new intro will be much clearer. I'm pretty much doing what you suggest, which has the added benefit of making the message stronger and clearer. I'm also adding new navigation aids that will (I hope) make the whole experience a lot more manageable.
The final, final test version is up. (http://enterthestory.com/dec15test/Les%20Miserables%20Setup.exe)
If anyone has time to look at it I'd be grateful. Needless to say, I've done a lot of work on it since October. If there are no major bugs then I'll declare this first story finished at the end of this week, then begin work on to the second story.
Well, make a completed games about it!!
Quote from: Dualnames on Tue 16/12/2008 19:13:24
Well, make a completed games about it!!
It's not completed until it's tested.
I hope I can still download..yay thanks.
EDIT: Quite a fast download.. 11 minutes.
First I'm not the best one to test the game and finish it , but you might want to hear my thoughts on it. First well, Peri's idea found me a little bit looking at the screen saying, I think he ruined it. Then I played some more. Then I find the idea of controlling Peri in the way its controlled as very cool and really a way to unmess things and tell the whole story. It would be cooler to play as Jean Valjean but that would actually make us miss part of the story. I don't know if playing as each one of the characters(changing by script) would end up working with so many characters.
So summary:
Pros:
1) Coolish animations, Great Music
2) Parts of the game are ripped but they don't appear as so.
3) Sort of an interactive movie..cool..always loved that kind of games.
Cons:
1) The interface appears to be confusing but it's good to know there's a help file and an in game tutorial.
Grade(if you want it keep it):
Effort: 10
Result: 8.4
Thanks for the feedback! I really appreciate you taking the time.
Quote from: Dualnames on Tue 16/12/2008 19:24:57It would be cooler to play as Jean Valjean but that would actually make us miss part of the story.
Yes, that was one of the big challenges. In the original book, not much happens for the first few chapters. But you do get to control Valjean by the end of "puzzle" number 3. (There are 120 "puzzles" in the game)
Quote from: Dualnames on Tue 16/12/2008 19:24:572) Parts of the game are ripped
Do you mean
(a) broken?
(b) attacked by critics?
(c) sudden?
(d) copied?
(e) intoxicated?
(f) muscular with almost no fat?
(g) other?
Quote from: Dualnames on Tue 16/12/2008 19:24:57Effort: 10
Result: 8.4
I'm very happy with that. The first game is where I make all the mistakes. That's why I'm not promoting it heavily until the second story is added in June - hopefully that one will be effort 8, result 10 :)
What's about "look at" codes for the objects? You've mentioned them in the blog.
Quote from: Cyrus on Wed 17/12/2008 10:29:33
What's about "look at" codes for the objects? You've mentioned them in the blog.
That just refers to right clicking a person, then right clicking a different person or object. Most objects and some minor characters only have one response. But major characters are supposed to have a lot of different things to say. If you just get the same response each time, please let me know.
(The one exception if if the response is obviously a clue. E.g. first look at "I was thinking of X", second look at "maybe I should look at X", third look at "I must look at X right now!!"
I mean work of others,but you've edited them in such a way, that they appear very cool. (Unless I'm mistaken about that so nevermind it). As for well, I'm sure you'll the hang of putting less effort more result. I'm waiting impatiently for the Divine Comedy...
Quote from: Dualnames on Wed 17/12/2008 21:42:05I'm waiting impatiently for the Divine Comedy...
So am I !! :) All I want for Christmas is to get Les Miserables out the door and never see it again (i.e. no more bugs to fix).
Hi!
I've just started to play this version. I like it a lot, very fresh and unique!
You were afraid that players might feel lost, but I find the constant, not very subtle "hints" overdone! I enter one room, a passerby says "defeat Napoleon", the same in next one, the same in next one... I'm afraid that at this point it lacks the challenge!... :-(
I would remember if one, maybe two people said it, it's a bit too much right now.
Also -- but this might be a hassle to implement now -- I think it would be great if I could right-click first on the item as well, not only a character, and if a separate label on the screen indicated what is in the right click "inventory" (map, old man, messenger, etc.)
Also:
Spoiler
When despairing Valjean thinks about a bush, he moves in its direction while sitting - this looks a bit funny ;-)
Also 3:
Spoiler
When Valjean argued with the policeman at the police station, I made him think about the book that was lying there - he walked into a position from which it was impossible to click on him (behind a wall). Happily, I had the debug key (place him in diff room), otherwise I would be stuck.