I think it would be a good idea to create a forum or thread just for newbies and the more advanced AGSer who doesn't mind answering
simple questions.
Of course the rules would say to check the documentation first.
This would help stop the constant negativity totals newbies who are having a problem getting their head around using AGS.
Maybe the introductory thread could contain a basic, basic description of how to start using AGS. Such as functions, events and the like.
It would be prohibited to say go to the documention and that is a stupid question.
The documentation does not often help I have found.
And for those who don't believe it, I have always looked to the documentation first everytime.
The person that makes this decision, think about it.
dbuske
Those advanced AGSers who really get upset with basic questions should avoid the beginner thread.
Quote from: dbuske on Sun 31/07/2011 14:18:53
I think it would be a good idea to create a forum or thread just for newbies and the more advanced AGSer who doesn't mind answering
simple questions.
We already GOT that- and you posted in it. So, what's your technical question?
dbuske, I hope I don't come across the wrong way here, but I'm going to contest some of what you're trying to achieve with this post. I've actually tried to cool myself down because for a while I did get a bit more uncouth than I intended. I could write it off as the fire that took hold in me upon discovering Oceanspirit Dennis, but in the end I'm responsible for my own actions, not him.
So, that being said, please understand that what I'm saying here is an attempt to help you. Not to attack you, not to berate or belittle you, or make you feel inferior, but to try and help you.
This is the "Beginner's Technical Questions" forum. It is, pretty much by definition, exactly what you were describing in your post. Despite what you may think because of the attitude of certain posts toward you specifically, there is not a "constant negativity" toward new members or those trying to learn AGS. The reason members such as myself and Khris spend so much time here in this forum is because we enjoy helping others, particularly when we can help them to help themselves. It's the principle of teaching someone to fish versus giving them a fish. If we can help you learn how to use AGS yourself without having to ask for help from us, then you'll be able to learn enough to do the same, and thus the gears of the AGS community are turned.
Regarding the introductory thread you mention, there are literally dozens of resources aside from the CHM manual that have been designed for specifically this purpose. There are thousands of posts here in these forums, there is the wiki which contains various tutorials, the Beginner's FAQ, and other resources, and so forth. The help manual is not an exclusive resource by any sense of the term. There's actually quite a bit that discusses this in the rules of this forum.
Regarding "functions, events and the like", the manual has a "Starting off" tutorial, a scripting tutorial, and again, there are plenty of other resources that work together to help get people started in using AGS (densming's YouTube video tutorials for example). We're not trying to hide this information from you, and if you have trouble finding it, we're actually pretty well known for being a friendly community, willing to help people out (even if the question has been asked a thousand billion times before!).
"The documentation", as you put it, by which I presume you mean the CHM help manual included with AGS, is not always useful, particularly if you're not familiar with the format of the manual itself. You might not know where to look to find something you're looking for, or how to find it. However, I would say that the claim that it "does not often help" is unfounded. There are very few cases that I can think of off the top of my head where the manual is not clear enough regarding standard operations for me to understand it, and of those, it typically holds enough to at least give me an idea of how to come to a more complete understanding if it is, per chance, actually lacking.
I'd venture to say that perhaps you have read the manual a fair bit more than you've apparently been given credit for doing, but I'd also take it a step further and say that you also probably understood very little of what you were reading (whether it was simply not understanding how to implement it in a real-world example, or you were reading something unrelated that might have seemed related without knowing what it was for, or what have you). I will give you the benefit of a doubt on that.
The problem here isn't that the included manual ("the documentation") and the other available resources are insufficient to help "newbies" gain a foothold in AGS, otherwise we would have a significantly smaller community than we do. It's a matter of execution and understanding. If you don't understand what the information provided to you means, then it is, for all intents and purposes, useless to you.
I'm not going to post in this thread again, as I've said all I can usefully say here. If you wish to discuss anything I've said in further detail with me, feel free to PM me. I would not be surprised if this thread was moved or even locked soon, not only because this is not a technical question, and is therefore in the wrong forum, but also because of the sheer and simple fact that there is little to be gained, for the community, from this thread. We have the Beginner's Technical Questions forum which fits the bill of what you've described.
I apologize if I've offended you presently, or in the past. Please understand that it was not my intent to make you feel unwanted here, as you have done nothing maliciously, in my opinion, to warrant your expulsion from this community. Your lack of understanding has proven a barrier to your progression in developing games with AGS, but I do hope that it can be overcome.
Good luck,
monkey
We already have the forum you describe, minus stuff you don't want to hear being prohibited to say.
A "basic, basic description of how to start using AGS" is given in the manual's tutorial and then there's also Densming's youtube videos which seem to have helped a lot of beginners.
Facing constant negativity isn't something every newbie has to endure; for instance I don't know how often I have calmly and friendly explained how to link a function to an event although this is right in the manual.
Only people who act like you did recently are going to encounter negativity. I don't expect you to realize that this a problem YOU have as opposed to every newbie though; and I doubt this fact will get through to you anytime soon. I'll still try though.
We "advanced" AGSers don't get upset with basic questions, we get upset with the way they are sometimes asked or the reactions our answers generate. This is an important difference, and you need to accept this. I myself give people a LOT of leeway before I start to become abrasive, especially if they are friendly.
In your "multiple rooms inside one" thread you didn't even bother to try to correct the misunderstanding; all you did was add negativity to the thread. In my opinion, the question you asked was a different one than Ryan thought, but why would you not at least try to rephrase it or explain it better?
To me it isn't even worth talking about that any kind of technical question should provide as much info as possible (including code that was used) while being phrased as clear and concise as possible, and put forward in a friendly way. It should also be apparent that the poster did use available resources first, trying to solve the problem on their own.
While this to me is perfectly obvious and self-evident, there are people who seem to not share this view.
Some think that it is somehow our job to help them, or that they don't need to bother looking at the manual first, or that unclear ramblings riddled with errors they didn't re-read before posting will suffice.
Then there's also the fact that there are some people who seem to be completely unable to critically look at their OWN actions. They also tend to project bad characters traits onto others. Many pathological liars for example assume that everybody else will lie all the time, too. There's really nothing you can do except showing these people from the start that they aren't going to get a foot in the door with the generally friendly people here. Unfortunately, some don't share this view either.
Long story short, if you look at other newbie posts you will find that in an overwhelming majority of threads, even stupid questions get helpful and generally friendly answers. It all comes down to attitude.
(Technically, this thread is the wrong forum btw., I do see the sense in opening it here though.)
I think it's not really a bad idea to have a sticky "Noob" thread where beginners can gather and commiserate with each other.
Most of us techies prefer answering specific technical questions rather than providing anxiety counseling. ;D Beginners are sometimes overwhelmed and aren't able to effectively articulate specifics. A thread similar to what dbuske suggests would perhaps fill that gap.
If you have a specific question then you would create your own thread as is done now. If you are looking for encouragement or don't know exactly what or how to ask then you could post in the Noob thread without fear of reprisal. I think it would eliminate crapola and hurt feeling from the Beginners forum making it better for everyone.
Why not give it a try and see how it works out. If people find it useful then keep it, otherwise let it die a natural death.
Here is an example:
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=44112.0
Having just a thread for this isn't a bad idea, the only problem I see is newbies giving newbies advice. It already happens and usually sends shivers down my spine :=
It might also lead to people posting questions in a second thread if they didn't get any help in the newbie thread, but that situation still has only one extra thread compared to the current one. So I'm all for it.
Khris, the verbage/rules can be refined to the issues you mention and any that come up int the future.
Notsureiftrolling.jpg
ಠ_ಠ
Edit:
I just read through the forum rules again (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=14373.0)
It blows my mind how regularly people post crap that pretty much violates them in their entirety.
Amazingly, posting in a RTFM way is still frowned upon.
If you're going to post in the noob thread, do yourselves and us a favor and read the rules first.
I'll continue to verbally bitch slap people who obviously haven't, no matter how many times 'some' say I shouldn't. (Not in the noob thread though.)
Personally I think we care about the rules too much. Well of course I'm not the one to say. But that's all. Of course this doesn't go here. Not just my post, the entire topic, I mean.
I mean rules? Yeah, if everyone followed rules, no topics would be locked, I'd have probably 12 posts total, and this place would be so boring without OSD, Mittens and all the other stuff created because we broke rules or bend them a little.
The most amazing topic of all time, RELEASE SOMETHING hosted by Ben304, wouldn't be there, if another topic/post followed the rules.
So yeah, if temporary anarchy brings awesome, yes, I vote in the favor of that. And i love the sheer irony this line contains.
QuoteAmazingly, posting in a RTFM way is still frowned upon.
Cause that's so MATURE. I wonder if someone asks you "hello, where is that road" if you respond "RTFM N000BBBBB!~!!" (M stands for map)
And i totally love, how this simple sentence just shows, how much we all have missed the point.
QuoteBeginners are sometimes overwhelmed and aren't able to effectively articulate specifics.
Quote from: Dualnames on Tue 02/08/2011 20:30:10QuoteAmazingly, posting in a RTFM way is still frowned upon.
Cause that's so MATURE. I wonder if someone asks you "hello, where is that road" if you respond "RTFM N000BBBBB!~!!" (M stands for map)
::) An oversimplification and resulting strawman argument, weee!
If satnavs and maps are readily available all over the place for free and people don't get either and ignore street signs, too, then yes, they might get that reply from me. See the difference? (Don't answer, I don't care.)
Hi all.
I just want to say that everyone on this forum is fantastic.
Khris, monkey, babar and many others have been fantastic.
I have had many problems that were, easy for them but, difficult for me. I do however put 'Khris' at the top of my list.
Some people find him... Abrassive... maybe. I find that he just doesn't suffer fools gladly.
He has helped me on many problems, within AGS, and taught me a number of ways to do things.
It all depends on the question and how you write your question.
Some people think that just because it's the web, You can talk to people how you feel. This is wrong.
Talk to people the way you would to their face.
In saying this. Read the F*****G manual and watch the Youtube Tutorials.
Jesus Christ. People piss me off. ;D
Jay.
My vote goes to monkey.. :D ..He's efficient yet firm....
Khris is a close second, very efficient yet he makes you look over your shoulder when your posting....tends to make things exciting when you post and wait for the reply...
The truth of the matter is...Monkey said it perfectly in this paragraph...
Quote from: +monkE3y_05_06+ on Sun 31/07/2011 14:56:47
The reason members such as myself and Khris spend so much time here in this forum is because we enjoy helping others, particularly when we can help them to help themselves. It's the principle of teaching someone to fish versus giving them a fish. If we can help you learn how to use AGS yourself without having to ask for help from us, then you'll be able to learn enough to do the same, and thus the gears of the AGS community are turned.
That is just poetry in motion :'(
Everyone around here is great, you all have made learning AGS fun and exciting....Us appreciative noobs salute you!!!!!
QuoteEveryone around here is great, you all have made learning AGS fun and exciting....Us appreciative noobs salute you!!!!!
What NickyNyce said.
We all appreciate the work that the 'Gods of AGS' do. :D
Jay.
I think we can all agree that *I* am the best newbie helper if we ignore the times when i get shit wrong and/or get bored halfway through a post and end it with "so.. yea"
Calin, you've never made a single complete serious post. Half of your posts end in "lol" and the rest don't even contain complete thoughts.
Then again, given some of the most recent newbies around here, you sound like the perfect person to communicate effectively with them. :=
That is simply not true! In fact I.. so yea