TRANSPORTATION (RENTAL) SERVICE IN WATERFALL VALLEY
Guidelines:
Create a background that you think matches the description above.
It can either be a rental or passenger service, but as to the kind,
location, timeperiod, universe; that's up to your imagination.
Voting:
I thought we might try some new voting categories, so if anyone
has any interesting replacements in mind, please do tell.
Voting will commence on the 26nd at 00:00 GMT, unless fewer than
five entries have been submitted by then.
Good Luck!
Ps. It would be great if those who like would include some
work in progress pics, to show how they work. Some comments
describing the process would be even better, but all of this is
highly optional.
Perhaps better include these as clickable thumbnails, not to
overcrowd the thread, or some other solution. Ds.
Edit: Deadline extended by request
I would suggest voting -- in addition to the other categories -- for Emotion ( How the picture affects the viewer; Does it stir awe? Repulsion? Fear? Nothing at all? ) and Storytelling. (Does the picture have something to say/show? Is it just a forest or a forest with a story behind it? How well does the painter project this story? )
This way the competition will have 3 technical ( Design, Technique and Functionality ) and 3 mental ( Idea, Emotion, Storytelling ) categories. Therefore, everyone has to use painting technique and experience along with originality and imagination to win the blitz.
Do like the ideas, though 'Emotion' might not be ideal, especially when dealing with more functional backgrounds, and I think 'Atmosphere' might be able to replace it. Anyone got any other ideas?
'Storytelling' might not be very intuitive, but I really like the idea. 'Authenticity' isn't very close, and probably even less intuitive, but the best alternative I can come up with atm. Would really like to hear some alternatives on this too, if anyone can come up with any.
I also like the symmetry between, like you put it, "mental" and "technical". Here's some other categories, where you'd sort of maintain the symmetry, but where you'd seperate between the aesthetical design aspect, and the functional.
Example:
Idea
Atmosphere
Storytelling
Design - The design of landscapes/objects/architecture
Composition
Colours/Lighting - I don't really like bundling these together, but it creates a nice consistency, categorywise.
Camera Placement/Angle - Should fit/emphasize the mood of the scene, while still work technically with 2D sprites.
Walkareas - Cleverly restricting the movement, to give the illusion of freedom, while not confusing the player.
Exits - How clear the exit areas/paths are, and the lack of areas that look like exits, but aren't.
Hope to hear some further thoughts.
I think these are all overthinking the bg blitz and overcomplicating voting. Less people will vote. A simpler approach is better like the one that exists (you made :) ). Just keep the four categories, the previous blitz showed that pixel and high-res could compete against each other, the voting was fair and fun by everyone, no need to change anything. Sometimes extra rules like idlu had could make blitzes more fun, but definitely not a must, optional by the hoster :)
Just a quick five minute break from finishing Heartland Deluxe... :P
- Waterfall Valley Transport Service -
(http://homepage.eircom.net/~limpingfish/Background.jpg)
- The only connection between the people of Waterfall Valley and the fertile soil of the plateau above them, was Parson Lipke's transport service; a dangerous, and costly, slow ascent through a wall of roaring water in a metal transport pod. -
Modelled and rendered (badly :P) in Cinema 4D.
calacver:
I see your point, but I think the categories might hopefully turn the competition more into an activity where you create and learn, rather than a contest where only those who hope to win enter.
Fewer would probably vote like you said, since it would be more demanding, but at the same time, it would mean that only interested, and at least remotely knowledgeable people would cast their vote, instead of people just wanting to cheer for someone whose style they like. And I'd personally rather see a few quality votes than a lot of casual, thoughtless ones.
I hope this hasn't come across as elitist, since I'd like the activity to be welcoming to anyone interested in the backgrounds, regardless of their experience.
Personally I don't think this is the time to start deepening the rules or voting system. I respect the suggestion about making the competition more of a learning experience, but I think that the motivation is lacking.
First of all, I think the voting system we have now is ideal for these forums. It's not too simple, but it's not too difficult either, and it's simple and quick to use for all members. Also, there are two categories for artistry (design/technique), and two for the game aspect (idea/functionality), which kinda creates this judging scale similar to a radar chart (http://www.spreadsheetconverter.com/samples/charts/images/radar-chart-web.png). I think this creates a fair balance that doesn't shun away people who aren't the most artistic.
Secondly, while adding voting categories may add more artistry and analysis to the competition, in my opinion it would turn away too many voters. If we start asking people to vote about emotion, composition or atmosphere, were starting expect too much of them, and we're automatically cutting off people who are inept and uninterested to start judging such stuff. And, I for one, don't want to alienate people from this competition. I've now held three blitzes and every single time to get more than 6 voters, I've had to go around begging people to vote.
The most common excuse against voting is that it's a burden to people. People feel very burdened by voting for four categories, even if they don't write up reasons for their votes. For example, in the previous blitz, even when the entry turnout was phenomenal, many people just couldn't be arsed to vote, and it went so far as to some people not only refusing to give reasons for their votes, but actually wanting to quote other people's votes (no offence to those people :D). The second most common excuse is that the asked person isn't an artist and doesn't feel like he can honestly give fair judgements, when he doesn't even fully understand what the categories mean.
Now the question arises: Do we want these people voting at all? Which is better, quality or quantity? Well, in my opinion, in this matter quantity is more important. I believe that everyone has some sense in judging visual design and most people do have preferences in techniques, styles, etc. I see that as a valid qualification. This is after all an adventure game background design competition, not an art fair. And as a side note, most people do tend to really think about and ponder their votes. Just because no reasons aren't given doesn't mean they weren't meticulous decisions. Thoughtless, casual votes is a highly marginal amount.
PS. Who locked the previous blitz? At the end of the thread, I suggested that we could have a healthy discussion about the voting system and some other things before the thread would get locked and in that way this thread wouldn't get so cluttered up with discussion. Well, two people got their replies in before the thread was quickly locked two days before the second blitz thread (this one) was created. I found this to be pretty frickin' rude. I understand that redundant threads are best to be locked, but at least wait until the new thread is opened. Now this thread is getting cluttered up with posts like this.
Heres my entry, it isnt very good, im new to all this graphic stuff, and Ive only got a very old version of paint shop pro (4)
(http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/2885/agsbackgroundcompmx0.png)
The lines are meant to be blurred (and the grass) to add to the effect and also to get rid of all the straight edges. Please tell me what you think.
QuoteWell, in my opinion, in this matter quantity is more important. I believe that everyone has some sense in judging visual design and most people do have preferences in techniques, styles, etc.
This is exactly what I would want to avoid, because the only consequence of a competition where the taste of others is the judging factor, is the discouragement of originality, and by originality, I'm not talking a crazy looking building, but true style originality, which more or less by definition won't appeal to many.
The categories are instead meant to be based on objective qualities, which I'm well aware is a vain ambition, but in my opinion, a sound ideal.
I can still really hate a background while thinking that it has a great composition, lighting, colours, exits, walkareas, etc. So with these categories, I'd be basically voting for a entry that I don't like at all, because I'm not basing it on my personal taste.
-
As for the possibility of few votes, I can't really say that it bothers me, just as I much prefer a CL thread that contains two really good constructive posts, than 100 one line smiley posts.
One way to get a few votes is to encourage all participants to vote. I was at first opposed to voting myself, wanting to remain impartial, but I now see it as a way of emphasizing the activity aspect, where the participants are there to create n not compete.
This would mean that many contributions would generate at least the equal amount of votes, which should be sufficient.
One could make the argument that few votes means that the most deserving entry wouldn't, at least neccessery, win, but that's only bothersome if you care about who wins.
-
I realize that some may feel uncomfortable voting in some of the categories, but that can be easily solved by not demanding votes in all categories.
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Anyway, a good thing about this competition is that its small scale allows for experimentation, so we could try numerous systems, and simply see what has potential.
Lastly, I wan't to repeat my ambition to keep this activity open to anyone interested in backgrounds, regardless of experience.
Every waterfall has to have a mountain 'attached' somehow... :D
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a33/trumpet_nerd/TransportationRental.gif)
Okey, I tried something new here, technique wise (new for me that is) and I think I mixed to many styles.
It's unclean, unimaginative and quite frankly rather unfinished, since I lost interest as I noticed it wouldn't work out the way I wanted...
But enough of the banter, here it goes:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/wfall.png)
u1bd2005, I love your picture, it's very witty and although you're no loominous in your art, I think the idea was excellent. I'd suggest 2 things (sorry, I know it aint CL)
1. Follow some art tutorials
2. Forget the blur tool
Quote from: SSH on Fri 20/10/2006 10:45:51
u1bd2005, I love your picture, it's very witty and although you're no loominous in your art, I think the idea was excellent. I'd suggest 2 things (sorry, I know it aint CL)
1. Follow some art tutorials
2. Forget the blur tool
KK, Ill keep that in mind next time, ill also search the net for some tutorials l8r and also read the tutorials that are on this site.
(http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/5154/transportwk4.png) (http://imageshack.us)
Waterfall valley is connected to the industrial part of the city, with its big waterwheel working day and night to support the steam, which runs the machines. Also the transport platforms where the steam ran zepperlins bring workers, visitors and cargo.
-----
A location map or something I guess (would be hard to do any puzzeling here).
Not very funtional, but was fun doing it.
URL: http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/5154/transportwk4.png
(edit: story)
The pathways of the valley are notoriously perilous, so if you wish to visit the craggy peaks of its neighbouring mountains or tour its breathtaking (ie sulphurous) lavafall, it's best to go by flying broom...
(http://crabshack.bythegoddess.com/ags/DarkWaterfall.gif)
A quick background... perhaps inspired by the upcoming Halloween? ^_^
zyndikate, your gorgeous work reminds me of this image of a cancelled LucasArts Full Throttle Game, "Payback"
------
(http://www.mixnmojo.com/galleries/87/full20040604194737.jpg)
Ah cool, never seen that before.. I guess its not such an orginal idea :)
I was most thinking of steampunkish.
It's more like super-duper mega incredible I mean... :o :o :o :o
How long did it take to do this?
About 2hours, dont remember.. It was done in one run.. Its not that detailed, I wouldnt say its a complete work.
If you guys happen to have any early versions/layers/sketches saved, I'm sure many would be interested in seeing them, to see how you go about painting.
And to anyone still working on their contribution, why not take some screenshots/save some progress versions.
Keep up the good work!
Here is my entry (I hope the irregular size isn't a problem):
(http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/458/wfvalleytake2iw7.png)
Ooh another mountain gondola! :D Nice work, everyone!
I must say this month has been a showcase of the highest calibre! :o
If only we can say that everyone is a winner
well I certainly would say for this month. Good luck people!
24 hours to go, if anyone wants a smaller extension, please PM me.
Made an attempt at a pixel background.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Darkster/backgroundcontesfinal2.jpg)
Would work a bit like the monkey island island overviews with different locations to travel to :3.
The orange thingie is a train track fyi, and it's originally in 320x200, also just fyi ;3
Love the backgrounds so far, alot of great ideas and atmospheric pictures :D.
Deadline extended an additional day, by request.
Come on ildu, post it already! ;)
Tremendous background Penguin!
I asked for a day's extension from loominous, so hopefully he accepts :). My bg is almost done, and I'm probably gonna work on it from now 'til the early hours of the morning. But I'm pretty sure even then it won't be ready :(. So I'd love it, if the deadline was extended. I only need a day (just half a day really).
Quote from: loominous on Wed 25/10/2006 16:32:03
Deadline extended an additional day, by request.
Oh, I didn't notice that post. So, I guess the deadline is tomorrow then? Just wondering, since the thread title nor the first post was edited. So I'm just making sure :D.
Supperb entries. Idlu' s will rock, I am sure. Congrats for the quality of the activity.
Penguin, that just rocks!
An hour to go. If anyone wants a short extension, please PM me.
"I had arrived. The place was something alright. I had heard that it was built in the 1920's with stolen money left over from the Great War. The architect, an Austrian named Otto von Glüsenheimer, headed the construction of what was supposed to be the ultimate luxury retreat for the nouvelle riche, named MAXIPOLIS. A madman at best, von Glüsenheimer ran the project into the ground and soon funding fell through. The task was ultimately abandoned and what remained was a half-finished wreck of an empire."
(http://users.evtek.fi/~ilarim/bgblitz_gondola_640.jpg)
This was my first serious try at detailed realistic digital painting. It turned out ok in my opinion, but I can already see a lot of stuff I'd want to redo/develop :-\. I wanted to make it a lot more art decoish, but time restrictions forced me to compromise, which also shows in the poor light composition, unrealistic light and some imbalance in the image. Nonetheless, I'm already so sick of this image, I'm just gonna tuck it away somewhere and never open the PSD again :). It was painted at a very high res, and it had way more than 50 layers, equalling a 46mb file. So, you can imagine what kind of torture it was to work on it for the last bits. Scratch disk filling, PS occasionally crashing, and zooming in and out becoming extremely slow. Yeah, I'm never gonna open this PSD again :D.
And yes, I know. Another gondola :D. I honestly thought no one else would happen to come up with one. Joke's on me, I guess :).
I'm looking forward to Bioshock too. :=
Totally wicked awsome Ildu, :D!
Looks brill, love the dusty? texture it has.
and yes, Bioshock is looking good as well :3
Ok then, let's get the voting started.
So I thought we'd try some different categories than the usual this time, namely:
Idea - Self explanatory
Atmosphere/Mood/Emotion - As well
Storytelling/Authenticity - While not all enviroments may tell us clear stories, most provide us with traces of the past, and of their inhabitants, which make them come alive, and feel believeable.
Design - The design of landscapes/objects/architecture
Composition - How well the different elements of the background are composed.
Colours - Anything from nice colour choices for objects, to colourschemes/tones.
Lighting - Doesn't have to be any fancy lighting, just one that works well for the style/scene.
Camera Placement/Angle - Should fit/emphasize the mood of the scene, while still work technically with 2D sprites.
Walkareas - Cleverly restricting the movement, to give the illusion of freedom, while not confusing the player.
Exits - How clear the exit areas/paths are, and the lack of areas that look like exits, but aren't.
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It would be great if all participants provided their votes. The voting is of course open to anyone, and if you feel uncomfortable placing a vote in any category, just skip it, or ask for a more thorough explanation.
Voting will end tomorrow at 00:00 GMT.
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Here's the code for the categories, so you can simply copy n paste, n fill in your picks.
[b]Idea[/b] -
[b]Atmosphere/Mood/Emotion[/b] -
[b]Storytelling/Authenticity[/b] -
[b]Design[/b] -
[b]Composition[/b] -
[b]Colours[/b] -
[b]Lighting[/b] -
[b]Camera Placement/Angle[/b] -
[b]Walkareas[/b] -
[b]Exits[/b] -
-
Hope you give your vote, the entries deserve it!
All are so nice, but...
Idea - u1bd2005
Atmosphere/Mood/Emotion - Ildu
Storytelling/Authenticity - Zyndikate
Design - Penguin
Composition - Zyndikate
Colours - Ildu
Lighting - Ildu
Camera Placement/Angle - TheJburger
Walkareas - Ildu
Exits - Penguin
Not sure why we even have to vote, SCUMMbuddys entry will win for sure.. :-X
Eeh.. sorry
Idea - Zyndikate having the waterfall power the station is excellent integration of the enviroment, and besides, I like zeppelins.
Atmosphere/Mood/Emotion - TheJBurger plenty of atmosphere, goes well with my fear of heights.
Storytelling/Authenticity - Ildu
Design - Ildu
Composition - Ildu
Colours - Ildu Muted muddy to neon green, what's not to love? :3
Lighting - LimpingFish
Camera Placement/Angle - TheJBurger again, awsome sense of height.
Walkareas - MashPotato
Exits - Ildu
Idea - MashPotato. The most intuitive and original compo. And hey, it could happen :P
Atmosphere/Mood/Emotion - Ildu. I really felt isolated after looking at the background for a while. Fantastic Job.
Storytelling/Authenticity - Ildu. This was an interesting build up, with the story and the image itself :)
Design - Ildu. Really well balanced shapes, with a touch of abstractness but not too much.
Composition - Ildu. I can't believe this is a single perspective-point composition. Tremendous depth and variability and that's no easy feat.Ã, A close competition with ScummBuddy*** but in his background, the rock formation blocking the exit point to the right, leans inwards, creating an arrow and thus bouncing the eye with force back to the image. I'm all for smooth circulation when it comes to leading the eye.
Colours - Ildu. Briliant, the image conveys just what Ildu planned for it to do with fantastic chroma and values. Not too saturated, but not grey-ish enough to make it "dead".
Lighting - Ildu. You just killed me with the bench reflections.
Camera Placement/Angle - Ildu. ( For the reason stated in 'composition' )
Walkareas -Ã, Ildu. Well most participants didn't actually add much walkable areas, so Ildu wins by default :P
Exits - Ildu. Same as above.
So all in all, Ildu is the hero of the day, with one of the 3 best backgrounds I've seen in this forum. ( The other two, belonging to loominous )
I would have loved to participate but my new tablet didn't arrive this week and I would never post my first image created for these forums with a mouse. Great Job Everyone, this has trully been a divine month for background art.Ã, ;D
*** zyndicate I messed up with the names reading a previous post :p
Idea - LimpingFish
Atmosphere/Mood/Emotion - TheJBurger
Storytelling/Authenticity - ildu
Design - ildu
Composition - ildu
Colours - ildu
Lighting - ildu
Camera Placement/Angle - TheJBurger
Walkareas - MashPotato
Exits - Mad (I think its hard to judge this category, how can we know what the intentions of the creator had, maybe it is a exit or maybe its not)
Ildu's picture is awesome, and I dont think anyone would say anything else, but I got a little comment: I think it lacks the 'WaterFall Valley'-part.
Idea - zyndikate
Atmosphere/Mood/Emotion - ildu
Storytelling/Authenticity - ildu
Design - zyndikate
Composition - ildu
Colours - ildu
Lighting - ildu
Camera Placement/Angle - zyndikate
Walkareas - ildu
Exits - ildu
These are all such great entries.
Idea - Mad
Atmosphere/Mood/Emotion - The JBurger
Storytelling/Authenticity - Ildu
Design - Ildu
Composition - Ildu
Colours - TheJBurger
Lighting - LimpingFish
Camera Placement/Angle - TheJBurger
Walkareas - Penguin
Exits - Ildu
I've got to say, i really liked many aspects of TheJBurger's entry (simple but so effective) and also Ildu's entry, but i have to agree with zyndikate, i can't see as much "Waterfall Valley" in it as some of the other entries. But still great entries.
my vote goes to ildu. (design)
ildu, make a game, or apply at autumn moon. ;)
Woah, thanks for the kind words!
I'll give my votes a bit later today when I have more time.
Quote from: SteveMcCrea on Fri 27/10/2006 00:16:26I'm looking forward to Bioshock too. :=
Quote from: Penguin on Fri 27/10/2006 00:29:55Totally wicked awsome Ildu, :D!
Looks brill, love the dusty? texture it has.
and yes, Bioshock is looking good as well :3
Yeah, as some of you might have guessed, the architecture and the backstory were inspired by the architecture in the upcoming game, Bioshock, as well as art deco in general (whenever I try to draw serious architecture, I almost always end up doing art deco :-X). Yes, I'm looking forward to the game very much, too :D.
Quote from: zyndikate on Fri 27/10/2006 02:45:20
Ildu's picture is awesome, and I dont think anyone would say anything else, but I got a little comment: I think it lacks the 'WaterFall Valley'-part.
Quote from: sportyjay on Fri 27/10/2006 07:06:08I've got to say, i really liked many aspects of TheJBurger's entry (simple but so effective) and also Ildu's entry, but i have to agree with zyndikate, i can't see as much "Waterfall Valley" in it as some of the other entries. But still great entries.
I totally understand. Well, my initial idea was to advertise the waterfall part with various billboards and posters on the background, and also to include it to be seen through the window. It was supposed to be this mountain-top paradise for summertime vacationers. But I also wanted to convey that the place is abandoned and desolate, so I'd need some cold vs. dark coloring stuff going. So then I thought that if I make it all summery, I couldn't really show in any way that the cable car/gondola is actually frozen and has been out of use for a while. And this is the major carrier of the abandonment theme.
So I came up with a solution: I'd advertise it very positively, while from the window you could see that it's ironically far from what the advertisements once advertised. Well, as I had to drop some stuff due to time contraints, it didn't work out that well. But anyhow, I thought the billboard on the left and the sun on the logo on the front wall opposed to the frozen background would make somewhat of a theme. As for the name of the topic itself, Waterfall Valley, the billboards were supposed have pictures of waterfalls and gondolas, and a waterfall was supposed to be shown in the background, even if frozen :). But some of the billboards went missing, and I ended up doing all of the exterior areas in less than an hour just before I posted the image here, so I didn't really have time to think about it. You can see that it's a valley, though :).
Idea - zyndikate: Here I'm assuming you mean "idea" in addition to the theme of the contest. In that way, I like how zyndikate has interpreted it.
Atmosphere/Mood/Emotion - LimpingFish: I like how his BG portrays a cold, almost comercial feeling (almost like it's cargo being transported) like something I'd expect from "Transportation (Rental Services) in Waterfall Valley.
Storytelling/Authenticity - Penguin, with a close 2nd from ildu
Design - zyndikate
Composition - ildu
Colours - Penguin
Lighting - Mashpotato
Camera Placement/Angle - The JBurger. Shows very well what s/he's trying to show, and works technically
Walkareas - In terms of cleverly restricting movement/giving illusion of freedom/not confusing player, I'd say MashPotato
Exits - TheJBurger
Okay, I've got some spare minutes to vote. Forgive me if I sound a bit washed out, for I am very very tired:
Idea - MashPotato. I loved this one. Flying brooms and a lava waterfall never fail :). When I saw this one, my first thought (after general amusement of course) was: there goes my idea votes :D.
Atmosphere/Mood/Emotion - TheJBurger. I was a big fan of this entry. The mood is great, the landscape is outstanding and I can almost feel and hear the wind whistling at me as I enter the cable car :).
Storytelling/Authenticity - LimpingFish. I liked the premise to this one. Something very different, but still authentic.
Design - Penguin. I loved how the tracks were present in all depths of the image. A great way to frame it.
Composition - zyndikate. Great positioning of the different levels of the construction.
Colours - Penguin. I liked your colors in the previous blitz and I like them in this one too. Very nice variation to more natural colors.
Lighting - zyndikate. Great colors and lighting, especially on the waterfall.
Camera Placement/Angle - TheJBurger. The absolute perfect place to put the camera in a scene like this. Greatness :).
Walkareas - MashPotato. Walkareas was something that was kinda lacking in this blitz, but MashPotato got that covered.
Exits - TheJBurger. What can I say? One clear exit (unless you want to exit to the bottom of the valley :). And the exit kinda struck me as something quite original.
Man, compiling those votes takes ages.
Anyway, here's the roundup:
Idea - zyndikate, followed by Mash
Atmosphere/Mood/Emotion - TheJBurger, followed by Ildu
Storytelling/Authenticity - Ildu
Design - Ildu
Composition - Ildu
Colours - Ildu
Lighting - Ildu
Camera Placement/Angle - TheJBurger
Walkareas - Mash, followed by Ildu
Exits - Ildu
Ildu, as the list suggests, got the most amount of votes, so congrats!
CONGRATS!
Thanks a lot :D. The new blitz will be up soon.
Btw, this is ample time to discuss the new voting system:
How did everyone like it?
Should I retain it in the next blitz?
To me, there were clearly less outsider voters in contrast to the participants themselves, is this positive/negative?
I thought the new system was a wee to complex, and actually got scared off from using it:P
The time I introduced the former categories, we got about three votes in total, and would've probably gotten similar reasons for the lack participance.
Doesn't mean that this system will catch on of course, just that drawing conclusions from a single or few instances isn't a very accurate or safe method.
Since you don't like the system, I see no reason why you should use it though, so I'll just continue my experimentations the next time around. No hard feelings.
QuoteTo me, there were clearly less outsider voters in contrast to the participants themselves, is this positive/negative?
While we're asking tough questions: puppies - cute or monstrous?
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Edit: I'm still very interested in hearing ideas about the system - I just have a problem when new/innovative ideas get discarded quickly, since I see it as one of the prime reasons to cultural conformity.
I, too, think that the many categories were a bit overboard - having a few may be good, but 10?! :o I wanted to vote but then I changed my mind, because I didn't have time to write down all the reasoning for my votes; I also didn't want to write that much.
In my opinion, a single vote per voter would be enough, since there is only a single winner. Having comments in the categories you set up is a good idea, but all the voting still results in a single winner.
As an alternative, images that did not win should probably be posted all together in Crits Lounge to see why they got less votes, how to make them better - that way voting would be about voting and people could still write longer comments about the images, maybe in all the 10 categories that you set up.
I don't think the voting system is better or worse than the last one. Personally I'd rather put in one vote saying which I think it the best background, the category systems seem to suggest I can't make up my own mind when it comes to what priorities I place on a good adventure game background, and actually artificially place some things I'd consider less important in most backgrounds on an equal footing with fundementals like ideas and mood. It's quite possible I'd give most of my votes to one background and still consider another one the best.
One thing that's good about the many categories is that it tends to ensure most entries get a vote for something that they did well, but I can give an honourable mention in words if I think another background is especially deserving in some aspect.
Well done Idlu, nice background.
Thanks, scotch :D.
Oh, I'm not discarding or denouncing anything, nor do I not like the new system. I'm just on the fence with the issue, because I see positives and negatives in both systems:
4-category system:
Pros: Simple. Clearly balanced. Easy and quick. Basically more attractive to wider audiences. More prone to make voters offer reasons to their evaluations.
Cons: Perhaps not descriptive enough. Doesn't give the artist too much feedback on his/her piece. Restricts longer and wider analyses.
10-category system:
Pros: Way more descriptive. Proper artistic evaluations on different important areas. Great feedback to the artist. Attracts more experienced artists.
Cons: May alienate voters who are too busy/tired/uninterested/inexperienced to vote. General confusion for voters who aren't experienced in evaluating the categories. Less prone to make voters offer reasons to their evaluations.
I kinda want for the blitz to become a little more professional, so I would support a more complicated voting system. But on the other hand, I don't want people to come here, see the artwork, begin to vote, and then get frustrated/confused/bored and just quit. I think what we really need to remember is that this is an adventure game forum, and not particularly an art forum, so we should live by the majority. It's likely that most people who visit the forums here do have a good visual sense by having a liking for adventure games (where the graphical element is a major one), but they may not be that interested in extending that to art analysis.
Maybe we can come up with some middleground. Perhaps some 6-8 categories, divided somewhat clearly into artistic and functional categories?
The 10 categories was a contributing factor to me not voting. Also lack of time, so I might not have voted anyway, but I saw that list and just moved straight on.
Anything more than four-five categories is just way too much. If the ones we have been using recently need tweaking, why not modify them instead of piling on more? In the 10-category list, it seems like the first group could easily be combined (it essentially boils down to what we think of the choice of subject matter and its effectiveness), and so could walkareas/exits. And then there are a lot of technical categories (the four in the middle and arguably the camera placement one), but nothing explicitly about how well we think it is executed, how nicely it is drawn. So, from these categories, I feel I would have to rate a sketch of a background the same as the finished, polished article. That maybe makes sense from an analytical point of view, and to encourage artists to consider the fundamentals and the structure of their backgrounds rather than focusing on the superficial, but it makes it more difficult for voting.
Actually, I think rather than extending the categories, it would be better to ask voters to comment on all entries. It could be very brief: "sucks"; "stay away from Photoshop blur"; "great composition, but the colors and shadows are wrong"; "Good: walkareas, colors, pixel art - Bad: idea, gradients, composition"; etc. For one thing, I think it would be more encouraging and inspiring for most of the contestants. If there were ten people voting, you would get ten short evaluations, while with the categories you get no feedback at all unless someone thinks you are the best (or one of the top two) in one of the categories, and even then with very little explanation (although voters are asked to give reasons, it seems that most don't). But also, I think it would be easier for the voters. Currently, for each category I have to go through all of the entries and decide which one I think is best. If there are ten categories and nine entries (like this time), that's ninety times I have to look at images to complete the voting. (I tend to cheat and not actually do this, though.) It would be much easier to just go through the entries a single time, and comment on each image individually.
More categories, it seems to me, encourages the high-end of the Background Blitz: the most accomplished artists and the most analytical voters. Asking for comments on the whole spectrum of entries, on the other hand, will (I believe) encourage the mid- and low-end: the contributors who still have a lot of room for improvement. We should try to strike a balance: the awesome quality of the entries provided by loominous, ildu and other frequent winners confer a level of prestige on the Blitz (not to mention they make it an enjoyable thread to browse), while helping less accomplished artists to improve is a valuable function to the community. This new proposed category system puts, in my opinion, too much emphasis on the former group while not doing enough for the latter.
Sorry I missed the vote :-[ (I think it's a good idea that all participants vote), but it looks like there was a clear-cut winner this time so luckily no harm done. Congrats on the lovely bg, Ildu :)
As for the categories, I tend to agree that 10 is too much, and some of them were very close in content. I think about 6 categories would be more attractive to voters.
Snarky's suggestion of commenting on each entry is an interesting one, but I worry that this would drive away voters, as commenting on entries (especially ones that may be sub-par) takes a lot of effort. Saying a brief sentence like "sucks" is terribly deflating to the person on the receiving end of it, and giving constructive crit isn't always easy. A system like that has a lot of potential benefits, but I'm not sure if it would work too well.
Everybodies entries were great. Here's to the next one :)
Seems like ten categories were a bit overkill then.
I like Snarkys idea about comments, since the categories only mentions the "best" ones. I'd hate to see brief "that sucks" comments, but they could be discouraged in the rules. I think the form of "Pros: , Cons:" would work well, since it would encourage finding flaws even in "amazing" entries, and bright spots in less than great entries.
The comment system doesn't have any host picking aspect yet though. I suppose the comments could be followed by a single vote, though I'm not a fan of this method, for reasons I've mentioned before.
I think it's worth to try out though, since we've already tried lesser n bigger number category systems.
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I'm not sure if this breaks any sub forum rules or anything, but it would be nice if this thread was to remain open for a bit longer, while the new one gets started (though perhaps without a set voting system for now).
Having voted in the past I liked the 4-category system, it seemed easy to use and sensible to me, I could easily and gracefully give my views of each of the background which I had voted for. This other system however just by looking at it makes me not want to vote. This system seems to swamp me with too many categories, too much information. I am not an art critic but I do know what I like and and to a certain extent why. But to catagorise it all is hard work, other competitions on the other hand when using a voting system normally just vote for one and explain why they chose it and such. I rather like this system although it does have certain negative drawbacks, the voter does not mention other backgrounds they may have liked or have been interested in.
This can leave some entrants feeling left out, perhaps sad that their entry has been overlooked and may not want to enter again. Perhaps if everyone commented on every ones entries they could feel equal and rejoice in the new found criticisms and praises of their work, it would surely make them enter once again and maybe even one day win. With these comments they would have the determination to win and with this a greater amount of entries would come in and of a better quality. It would also give the voters a more free form way of expressing their views of the work what they like and dislike about them. With this everyone would be happy and the world would be full of joy.
Quote from: loominous on Sun 29/10/2006 01:21:54
I'm not sure if this breaks any sub forum rules or anything, but it would be nice if this thread was to remain open for a bit longer, while the new one gets started (though perhaps without a set voting system for now).
Well, alright I think it's okay to let it stay open then, do report when you think it's enough and can be locked.
Anyway, congratulations ildu for becoming a Grand Slam Winner! :D
Hmm. Is anyone still gonna offer their comments? Please do so now, since this'll most likely be closed very soon.
Here's what I propose: We take it up gradually. We now raise it from 4 categories to 6, and if that proves to be too slim, we raise it again. Here's the two sets of categories I suggest:
Idea & Storytelling
Atmosphere/Mood/Emotion
Design
Composition
Colours & Lighting
Walkareas & Exits
Or, we just extend the 4 existing ones into 6:
Idea
Atmosphere
Design
Composition
Functionality
Technique
So what does everyone think? Are they comprehensive enough, and are they balanced enough into artistic qualities and functional qualities? Please, if you've got any interest in the blitz, comment on this. Thanks.
Basically, both suggestions seem almost the same. I'd go for version 2. For some reason, finding the BG with best atmosphere seems less work than finding the BG with best atmosphere, mood and emotion combined. Even if it's basically the same. More voters=more detailed information on the appeal of your work.
A brief explanation of the categories in the thread, and everyone should be fine.
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I think 6 categories is enough. It's good for feedback, and learning where to improve. But I prefer much more when people write up what they think about your work in their own words (like some people here thankfully do, I wish more would. I'll try to improve on that aswell.). It's like reading a review of your work instead of just noticing how many stars out of five you got.
That being said, the Background Blitz is alive and well, and a great place to challenge yourself.
I think four categories was enough, but my voting wont be affected by the amount of categories.
Main thing is to have balanced categories.
Voters who are willing to comment are also important. Plain vote doesn't say much. If it is like that then we could as well have voting just for one category: the best piece.
Just did a bit of research, looking through five randomly picked rounds all occuring before the category system:
Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Just vote:Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Very brief comment:Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Vote with comment:
Round1:Ã, Ã, 15Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 0Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 1
R2:Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 6Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 2Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 1
R3:Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 18Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 4Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 1
R4:Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 6Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 2Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 1
R5:Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 6Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 4Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, 0
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An additional thing I noticed was that the comments were almost exclusively about the winning contribution, or the runner upper.
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My suspicion prior to this tiny investigation, was that the categories might make people reluctant to comment, since they've spent energy filling out the category votes, and so the categories would in a way discourage comments.
Though it's not at all safe to draw any conclusions from these instances, they seem to suggest that the categories are irrelevant when it comes to additional comments, or possibly benefitial, in that more situations occur, where the voter is ambivalent and weighs two entries against eachother, and while doing this, discusses their respective qualities.
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About the category ideas, I like the first version, perhaps with an exhange of the "Walkareas & Exits" category for "Functionality" (which adds the neccessity for a good camera angle, that works with 2D sprites).
As categories go, I think either of the proposals are pretty good. Like Neil, I think the difference between them is minimal, but I probably prefer the second. Point by point:
"Idea & Storytelling" > "Idea" - because encouraging storytelling through the backgrounds is good
"Atmosphere/Mood/Emotion" < "Atmosphere" - because they all mean pretty much the same thing, and are redundant
"Design" = "Design" - I'm not really sure what this category means. Does it have to do with how interesting and elegant the shapes are?
"Composition" = "Composition" - maybe call this "Composition & Point-of-View", since choosing an interesting POV is closely tied to composition.
"Colours & Lighting" < "Technique" - because the former fails to cover other aspects of the execution
"Walkareas & Exits" > "Functionality" - because it's easier to figure out what it means (by all means add the camera angle suitability, though)
Personally, I think there's more to functionality than walkareas and exits. Composition and point-of-view also affect functionality. So I see composition as kind of in between design and functionality. Basically design means what objects in the bg look like, while composition means how they're positioned.
I agree about your other points. For example, colours & lighting goes into too much detail, when they both in my opinion range somewhere between design and technique.
More comments, please.
QuoteBasically design means what objects in the bg look like, while composition means how they're positioned.
I like the succinct distinction - could be used in the description, though perhaps with the modification:
Design - the physical appearance of the parts of the world
Composition - how these parts are composed/placed in relation to eachother
'Objects' might be misinterpreted as mere "things", while such things as landscapes, the sky, and other vast "objects" are neglected.
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I'm torn between Snarky's idea of adding 'camera angle suitability' to 'Walkareas & Exits', and ildu's merger of this into composition.
While a good camera angle is part of a good bg composition, it also feels like composition is more of the aesthetical aspect of this, rather than the functional.
Can't really make up my mind, so I'd be cool with any solution.
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I know my former descriptions of the categories sucked, so if anyone has any ideas of new ones, please do tell.
Personally I vote very rarely. And I can say if it goes to this you can be quite sure I won't vote at all. Who really has the time and devotion to answer all these and then give something for the people to read?
Some people spend 4-12 hours (or more) creating a background, I like to think others may have 5-10 minutes to write what they think.
I, too, think it's getting waaay overcomplicated - a single vote would be enough. When I enter BB, I do it to win :). If I don't win, I post my image to CL to see why people didn't vote for it.
Crits Lounge is exactly for people to write what they think about an image. And even if there is just a single vote, nothing prevents people from commenting on each image individually, if they want to.
I feel ashamed, but I must admit, when I vote I don't carefully weight composition against mood and technique - I simply settle for an image that I like most. If there are more than one candidates, I scratch my head and still settle for one, because eventually only one image will win - only one person can host the next BB.
Ok, so I guess we're leaning on the 6-category system. Of what I gathered, there are enough people to support a more complex system, but apparently the 10-category system is too much.
Please, if anyone still wants to comment on this, do it right now! We'll keep this thread open for one more day, and then Gilbot can go on and close it.
I guess I could state that Ildu, don't bother asking me to vote since I very unlikely will have the time or the interest to it, but as this doesn't really concern me, ignore this.
Ok, I will go with one of the 6-category systems.