Adventure Game Studio

So, for those still going strong, please submit your final piece before midnight. Starting tomorrow, we will then vote for our favourite entries. Break a leg everyone!

Latest Sketch - 14th May 2013
*****************************

Go ahead and hit me with all you've got, make my day!

(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm54/miguel20000/thumb9_background_zps24a75bb0.png)

End of week 1 sketch

(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa412/misj1270/ScenePart2_zpsca1b9416.png)
(global overview of the scene)

-- Follow first week progress (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453658#msg636453658) --


Some links to feedback given during the first week:

• ThreeOhFour (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453828#msg636453828)
• Miguel (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453859#msg636453859)
• Waheela (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453910#msg636453910)
• Cuiki (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636454223#msg636454223)
• Misj' (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636454008#msg636454008)

EDIT1: CLOTHING
She would never forgive me if I left her naked, so...yeah. The opportunities with clothing are infinite; but they are also crucial to define a character. Depending on what you want you could go very classic or very outgoing. Now I can't say I'm very good at doing original clothing, but for this exercise I wanted to spend a bit longer on this subject.

Designing clothing for Sandra is unusual for two reasons: 1. the has a feline body, and 2. she has wings. As a result I cannot design anything that has to be pulled up, nor can I design anything that has to be pulled over the head. In other words: her clothing should be wrapped around her, and be closed either in the back or at the front.

Also, because of her character, I wanted most designs to be cloth-based (bright colours) with only the occasional leather or metal.

So here are some designs I came up with (front and back; bottom row are accessories) :
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa412/misj1270/Clothing_zps1d05cc10.png)

Here is a nice tutorial on drawin clothings: How to Draw Clothes by Paris Christou (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJsvErtDvFc)

Alright, this is my initial Sketch:

(http://i44.tinypic.com/9kqc2f.png)

On to week 2!

Water dragon

Link back to original post: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453462#msg636453462 (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453462#msg636453462)

This is the result of the first week:
(http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/basic_sketch.jpg)

Water dragon, week 2, step 1 - Color

So, update for my drawing!

I started to decide on the colors. The water is blueish green, the kelp yellow-green, so I decided for my dragon on purple to get some contrast here. Underwater there is not much perspective guides beside the kelp going up to the single focus point out of screen. So I intended to use Aerial perspective (does this name even fit for an underwater scene?) which basically means stuff that is farther away is less saturated.

My goal was to draw the viewers eye from the bright top to the mouth of the dragon. At the first try, I didn't succeed at all. It is colorful but looks flat and dull. You can especially see that in the desaturated version I put underneath.

I started to add more contrast but was still not satisfied. Finally I changed the purple to a bluer tone, added shadows on the dragon itself and darkened the mouth as suggested by SookieSock.

(http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/colorthumbs.png)

Water dragon, week 2, step 2 - Color

I started coloring the basic sketch.

(http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/basic_colored.jpg)

Water dragon, week 2, step 3 - Anatomy

I changed the eyes and arms as suggested. Lots of cursing included. I also tilted the head slightly for better consistency in perspective.

(http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/drawing_newhands.jpg)

Water dragon, week 3, step 1 - Shading

(http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/dragon_shaded.jpg)

With help from Ben's fantastic paintover I tried some shading. I'm still missing some highlights on the kelp and I'm not satisfied with the legs yet.

Water dragon - Final drawing

Click on the picture for the high-res version:

(http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/dragon_final_small.jpg) (http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/dragon_final.jpg)

Week One Thread (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453575#msg636453575)

Week One Last Entry

(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/workshop_13-05-05_monster/workshop_monster_0509_sketch03.jpg)

A man, a plan...Panama (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453519#msg636453519)

Latest:

(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/deadlydepths_zps7190eb0e.png~original)

Please ignore the pure black along the cliffside and the comparatively lighter colors of the right cliff.  The right bit was me playing around with values but I wasn't happy with the contrast and brightness so I tried something different on the cultist cliff and was quite happy with the results.  I will be applying the same approach to the rest of the piece soon :).

WEEK 1 - SKETCH DEVELOPMENT (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453467#msg636453467)

******************

(http://i.imgur.com/ktmHUON.png)

Here's my sketch.
I plan on reworking the hands/cards based on the awesome feedback Misj' gave me (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453910#msg636453910) in the last thread, but I am totally open to any new feedback anyone has for me as well. :)

******************

WEEK 2, STEP 1: COLOR, REVISION, AND THE BEGINNINGS OF SHADING
(May 15, 2013)

First off, I began with a rough color study based on some of my reference images. I didn't really spend that much time
on the marble or human skin, and the overall colors will continue to evolve anyway with each draft as I fiddle around with the
color balance setting in Photoshop.

(http://i.imgur.com/EFi7lV6.png)
(Accidentally made his chest blazon green and not purple. Will change later.)


After this, I went back to my piece and made some changes based on the feedback I received from you guys.


(http://i.imgur.com/ktmHUON.png)  ------>  (http://i.imgur.com/bH0sY7d.png)

I changed Lord Jagged's hands to make them more threatening based on Cerno's comments (and face, see below image).
I also made him larger compared to the fortune teller and made him take up more space based on Cerno's and SookieSock's
critique. I corrected his sitting position based on dactylopus', Cerno's and Mordalles' suggestions, and lastly,
changed the human's hands and cards after reviewing the feedback Misj' gave me.

Below is a WIP. Still not happy with his face. Will work more on this tomorrow.

(http://i.imgur.com/BvP2D4i.png)




WEEK 2, STEP 2: MESSING AROUND WITH COLOR BALANCE/BRIGHTNESS/CONTRAST
(May 17, 2013)

Been messing around with the brightness/contrast settings as well as color balance. I also added some texture and color variation to Lord Jagged and developed the background, human hands and marble more.

(http://i.imgur.com/n1FzxF5.png)

Something about that clenched hand doesn't look right to me. Maybe it's the coloring? Any thoughts, guys?




WEEK 2, STEP 3: MORE FLESHING OUT
(May 21, 2013)

(http://i.imgur.com/hMI0UBN.png)

Added detail and shading to the cards to the hands. Based on your guys' feedback, I also made Lord Jagged's hands bigger, and I'm planning on re-shading his midsection tomorrow. As always, feedback welcome. :)




WEEK 2, STEP 4: AAAAAANND... EVEN MORE FLESHING OUT
(May 22, 2013)

I tried adding a more scaly texture to Lord Jagged's belly, but I just didn't like how it looked. Too distracting, so I reverted to the original design and added to it more....

(http://i.imgur.com/yo8syAV.png)                (http://i.imgur.com/cgZ4ISk.png)

-Further developed Lord Jagged's other hand
-Added more contrast to the pic in general
-Colored in chest blazon. (Not quite happy with it.)
-Fixed (hopefully) the pillowy stomach

Tomorrow, I'll work on fixing the embossed leather (just doesn't look right, suggestions welcome) and developing the background. After that, I'll just continue to add more details to the pic until the deadline.

Here's my sketch.
(http://www.longwayhome.de/zeug/monster/monsterworkshop_03.jpg)

Quote from: Andail on Tue 14/05/2013 13:31:37WORK MONSTERSHOP WEEK TWO

By the way...how strict are you one the weekly outline?

Quote from: Andail on Sun 05/05/2013 17:24:15Week Two
During the next week, we exchange feedback and start fleshing out our illustrations; we set up the lighting and start colouring.

Week Three
After the second week, we give each other a final round of C&C and start refining our pieces, adding details, textures and highlights where needed.

Week 1 - for me - was about character-design and stance (and a little bit about composition). Week 2 would be about adding details and fleshening out the characters; after which I can continue with the environment. Once that's achieved, week 3 would possibly include inking (though I don't think I'll do that for this piece), colouring, and lighting. These weekly goals (that are based around painting) are kinda incompatible with that approach; which is standard for line-art.

So...can I just ignore the outline as a guideline?

Week one's progress: Here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453483#msg636453483)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercocept5.png)

Week 2 Step 1 (15/05/2013)
an update on mine,
i'm going to change the shell pattern and eyes later on, but for now...
trying colours and values. kinda difficuly making the shape of the monster read from the background, but i will continue with this for the next week before i worry about painting details. i will worry about lightning a bit later also. first want to get basic values in there.
i'm looking for a more overgrown cavern with more greens :) :undecided:...
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercocept61.png)
and as loominous suggested, trying to make a very loosely painted monster stand out...
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercocept62.png)

Week 2 Step 2 (18/05/2013)
im still playing/fighting :angry: around with values and forms, and possible backdrops. some sort of temples in the background, with man made pillars in the tunnel. still very much loosely painted monster with details lacking. at the moment its mostly shadows, light still has to be added. light is coming from top right corner, kinda behind the monster. that shell is giving me nightmares.  :-X
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercocept7.png)
did a bit more experimenting  with my monster and background, and started with some of the details on the face.
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercocept8.png)

Week 3 i think, Step 1 (21/05/2013)
update on my side. i'll try and focus on the statue heads on the walls next, and the left hand wall infront also. after that i'll try and fix a few little things (leg on the right for one thing), but i want to keep it relatively "concepty" so dont wanna go into detail overdrive.
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercocept9-1.png)

Week 3 final update for now...
update of mine... i've kinda finished the grayscale one, and did a quickish colour test thing. its pretty rough, but I'll leave it like this. added a few more highlights on the skin also, and finished those statues.

(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercoceptfinalsmall.png)
toned down a bit on the colours...
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercoceptfinalsmall2.png)
so a very rough larger version... (with a few unpainted bits to the left and right i'll just keep that way :))
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercoceptfinal2.png)

So this is my end of first week sketch, its predecessors are over here (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453603#msg636453603).

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2yv44ds.png)

Since I'm quite new to all this, I am pretty much stuck at this stage.
For anyone willing to give me c&c, I would be happy with some very general pointers here.
Basically, what I should improve at this stage before it's too late and what the next steps would be.

Week 2 Step 1

Thanks to everyone for their invaluable support and tips.
I had to organize it all and even the condensed version now fills two pages.

So first I tried to improve the wings. The initial imbalance was inherited from the reference image of a bat with its wings pretty much in the same pose, but I agree that this has to change.

Next I tried to do some thumbnails, very useful technique, by the way. Thanks loominous!

(http://i39.tinypic.com/beyl2d.png)

I like the general feel of them quite a lot

Next I tried to sketch a pose that incorporates some of the advice I got, mostly from Kasander and waheela
I moved the wizard to the lower edge of the screen and made the dragon more prominent. The legs, arms horns and snout now all point towards the wizard. I tried to hint at a triangle here. ;)

Unfortunately I was not quite able to catch the presence of dragon from the thumbnails, maybe this stage needs another iteration.

(http://i41.tinypic.com/35m067o.jpg)

Edit: Maybe a little more like this, now the wings underline the arrow-shape more and it becomes a little more dynamic:

(http://i43.tinypic.com/34pgzef.png)

@waheela: Thanks a lot for the eagle images, nice finds. I have some trouble adapting the pose since an eagle has no arms, while the dragon does. But I tried to get the wings somewhat similar and I plan to heavily reference the talons.

@loominous & Kasander: Unfortunately I won't have the time to redo the whole dragon, so I won't be going for the 3/4 perspective since I fear that I might not make it in the end.

To every other helpful soul out there: You are not forgotten. All advice has been compiled into a neat list and will be commented on in due time ;)


Week 2 Step 2

Last update for today.

I played around a bit with talons:

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2psgfwj.png)

Also I tried to apply the pose I sketched earlier.
Somehow I get the feeling that every time I go from abstract to concrete the picture loses a lot of personality :cry:

Anyway, I know this is far from perfect, but I think I'll have to start thinking about lighting and colors, since I'm running out of time for the sketch phase...

(http://i44.tinypic.com/9r28ed.png)

Week 2 Step 3

So I tried to get a feel about lighting and colors with a very rough sketch. It might have been a good idea to do lighting and color separately though.

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2zyy713.png)

After Kasander's hint about adding some meaning through colors I drew the whole scene in reds, lighted from below and colored the wizard's spell in blues to underline his foreignness in this envionment. Just realized that the mountains would need different shades of grey to give them a better impression of depth.

After loominous's hints about contrast, I scaled down the image to thumbnail size:

(http://i43.tinypic.com/9jnpky.png)

I can see that the dragon takes the focus as it should but the smoke has too much contrast and competes too much. My decreasing the contrast here, I hope to get the background volcanoes to actually feel like a background, the same goes for the mountain range. Also the central volcano at the bottom as well as the wizard's cliff is almost invisible. This has to change.

Week 2 Step 4

Detail work, slow progress. Needs plenty more work, still got a lot to learn, need to research more, I guess.
Tried a different pen for the hands, which now somewhat clashes with the rest of the image.
The wizard's shadow is most likely wrong, at least the pole should not cast a shadow with the light source on top.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/aagort.png)

Week 3 Final Image

Time's up. Here's my final version (click for full size image):

(http://www.pancakeelement.de/AGS/final_800.png) (http://www.pancakeelement.de/AGS/final_full.png)

Phew that surely shaved some time off my life. Worth every minute though ;)
Unfortunately now I'll have to consider redrawing everything I did for the game I'm working on so far...

Misj, yeah don't worry too much about that. Look at my process; I didn't even show any references (although I have most of the work sti ll ahead of me, with plenty of references to find and publish). I expect to spend the whole upcoming week just painting the figures on the bike. I'm also extremely dissatisfied with the monster at this point, so c&c is welcome.
[imgzoom]http://www.esseb.com/andail/graphics/floating3.png[/imgzoom]

Sketch after week 1
(http://i.imgur.com/TDhjTBK.jpg)

after you all bring opponents and even priests in I'm thinking about adding another thing or person too but the monster will still be based on the sketch of course.

previous post in previous thread (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453463#msg636453463)




some more painting and refining the monster sketch

Quote from: selmiak on Sun 19/05/2013 23:53:31
(http://selmiak.bplaced.net/stuff/sk2.jpg)

A WIP. I hope to have given this beast a more dynamic, aggresive stance. The nose is just for teh lulz. Lightsource is also clear. Still unsure what to with the upper right part...
and how can I make this cave look more moist?

Quote from: selmiak on Wed 22/05/2013 23:03:32

Quote from: Andail on Thu 16/05/2013 21:43:38
    selmiak:
Not scary, but a nice comical touch.

Quote from: nihilyst on Thu 16/05/2013 11:02:03
selmiak:
That monster looks kind of cute, I can't help it. It might be the mouth or the "what's up?" kind of face. Don't know if that's what you were aiming at.

I hope I got rid of that hypnotoad resemblance with these skribbelings ;)

and since drawing penises on your monster is en vogue atm I added a mouthpenis. I don't know if it will stay though :=

Also added a very sketchy human, but I have no clue on his stance. I want him to hold a sword and a torch for additional lighting but having both sword and torch visible in a more or less natural approaching stance seems harder than I thought.

[imgzoom]http://i.imgur.com/60aUC9k.jpg[/imgzoom]

I am really not confident giving c&c about all the awesomeness already here, so forgive my ramblings. I hope I won't offend anyone.

Anyway rules are rules, so I'll be quick about it and run for cover:

miguel
the awesome: I already said that I love how it reminds me of Japanese Oni, although it is reptilian. Also the nose and general body hair is very creepy and makes this piece very unique.
the potential: The current sketch has lost some of the wickedness of the hole in the head as it now looks like a mere dent. Compare to your 2nd sketch from week one. Try to regain that sense of depth that suggests the hole actually penetrates the skull leading to an unprotected brain - or worse.

Misj'
the awesome: Basically everything, from the thought that went into the character to the very charming composition with the side characters. Can't wait to see this progress.
the potential: You opted for an 8-limbed flying creature which I imagine is a hell of a challenge. To me the current pose seems a bit like she is flailing with her legs and might use a little more purpose in the movement. On the other hand, if you animated this, I suppose it should exactly look like this. Hm.

dactylopus
the awesome: Kudos for attempting a foreshortening piece, I'd be stuck with this forever. I think the pose has a lot of energy and since the monster appears to fill the whole cave and is already very close, it is a nice threatening composition. Very in-your-face.
the potential: I think I liked the slightly bigger, more centered eyes and pronounced brows from your first sketch better. Maybe try to give a stronger impression that the monster has four eyes and the middle ones are not its nostrils.

cat
the awesome: I absolutely love how you are able to give a very strong impression of the final piece by from some squiggly lines.
the potential: I'll have to sit this one out until you add more details.

loominous
the awesome: It's stunning how you do lighting and color. You give the piece a very somber and nice atmosphere without having too many details yet.
the potential: Not sure whether you want to keep the somber atmosphere (which is very cool as it is) or want to go more in a threatening direction. One idea: The observer just disturbed the ogre at grabbing a book, so it might be nice to have it notice the observer more, maybe a slightly annoyed look on his face? The mice on its body might also be oriented towards the observer.

ProgZmax
the awesome: The progress you make from a relatively simple line drawing to the shaded details in this image is astounding. You have guts for having the sniper aim at the cultist instead of the elder god. There is the danger that it will look deliberate and not seem like a perspective error. I am looking forward to you pulling it off.
the potential: I have no idea what I'm talking about, but is the cultist cliff's perspective correct? Shouldn't it be more flat? As it is, the sniper seems to be on top of their cliff, for which he is too far away laterally. Does that make any sense?

waheela
the awesome: Drawing a frontal pose of a character with a snout is quite the challenge I think and you pulled if off very well. After listening to the story, I think you captured the essence brilliantly. This is one of the entries I'm looking forward to most.
the potential: Some minor things: Lord Jagged seems more interested than threatening. Maybe laying his bloody knife or sword across the table in front of him would give the scene some urgency, also a grimmer look on his face might help. From the story, I figure that the Kus are very proud so I think he would object to sitting at a table made for human height (as we can see his knees).

nihilyst
the awesome: I really enjoyed watching that thing take form from the initial basic sketch to this very expressive version. The way the tentacles all stretch out towards the boat gives a nice feeling of doom
the potential: Some minor things: Maybe you could stress the fact that it is one organism by adding links between the heads stretching across the lake floor. The boat is quite impersonal at the moment, maybe you can find a way of increasing the hopelessness by adding some personality to it: A dangling foot or a fishing rod maybe. Also having some wrecked boats at the floor might give a little more backstory.

Mordalles
the awesome: You really have a hand for detail. I absolutely love how you transformed your initial sketch into this one. The longer I look at it, the more I like it.
the potential: I am hard-pressed to find anything. The only thing I can think of is that with hind legs that short and a belly that round it would not be able to rest horizontally without rolling around, but that's just nitpicking.

selmiak
the awesome: Very nice lighting. The stalagtites to the right and the water give a very nice impression of the dank and dark surroundings.
the potential: You went quite a way from your initial sketch, which I found very charming. I would love to rediscover its kind of pissed off "What are you doing in my cave!"-attitude in this piece.

FEEDBACK


miguel
I wasn't sure what direction you were taking the sketch at first, but after you added color, the piece REALLY came alive, and I love it now! The detail of the scales looks great and I love the hair and shading on the face.

That being said, there is one thing I think you could improve on. Firstly, the perspective of the room does not quite match the perspective of the monster. The perspective for the cell would suggest the viewer would be looking down at the monster from above, but the perspective of the monster is a straight-forward view as if you are looking at the creature eye to eye. I hope that makes sense, and is helpful. :)


Misj'
I've been really enjoying watching your updates, because I feel your monster has gotten increasingly better and well-developed each time. I love the monster design. I also really like the colors/setting you've introduced into the picture, and the placement of the swordsman in the foreground.

If I were to give feedback, it would be about the placement of the monster. It's unclear who she's interacting with. Is she interacting with the two people in the background? If so, I feel like you should either change the direction the monster is facing, or move the background characters forward so both parties are in the middle-ground of the picture.

If she's not interacting with the two in the background, is she pursuing the swordsman? If that's the case, I think it would be more interesting if the monster was a little closer to the swordsman/camera and taking up more space in the picture. You'd probably have to change the direction the monster's head is facing too.


dactylopus
I like the pose you've chosen for your monster. I think it is very dynamic and interesting (and @#$%ing challenging, I hate foreshortening and perspective, oh my god).

As far as improvements go, mine won't really be that helpful. I think the figure in the foreground is a little static right now, and needs to be doing something like running, showing surprise with his body language, etc... but I assume you're already going to do that anyway and don't intend to leave him/her as is. I'm sorry my feedback right now is crap, and hope I can offer something more constructive later on down the road. :)


cat
Love your idea, and love your refreshing reboot of the boring, classical reptilian land dragon. I also like the composition you ended up going with! I think it's a little too early in the pic's stage to give critique though, so I'll wait until you've gotten further with it. :)


loominous
My mind is kind of boggled by the lighting in this piece. So warm and luminous!

It's hard for me to think of improvements, but if I were put on the spot, I'd put down some more darks to add more volume to the figure and bring him out more from the background. Maybe under his arm, on the bookshelf he's directly in front of, in his face to better define his features, etc. I have a feeling you were probably planning to do that anyway though, since this is still in its early stages.


ProgZmax
Phenomenal shading so far, and the figure in the foreground looks well-developed and great! I'm really excited to see how your piece develops in the coming weeks.

Improvements... hmm... the thing that distracts me a little from the piece is the perspective of the plateau in the background. It's so slanted that I feel people should be rolling off the side...
...UNLESS THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT ME TO THINK and you're going for the Lovecraftian-style mind-defying geometry look. :-D If that's the case (which I hope it is because that's just @#$%ing awesome), you should push the landscape more. Make more parts of the plateau jut off at weird, gravity-defying angles.

One more thing, and it's small. I'd add a bit of shadow under the gunman's knee. I think it would make his crouch look a little more natural and ground him more on the plateau.


nihilyst
I really enjoyed watching you develop your monster design last week. Your monsters reminds me a little of the Sarlacc pit from Return of the Jedi, but cooler and more developed. It's hard for me to think of improvements right now for you, so I'll hold off for now and wait to see how you develop your awesome pic first. :)


Mordalles
I have absolutely nothing for you but gushing praise. Your pencil work is @#$%ing amazing, and I absolutely love your monster design. I really wish I had something to say about improvements, but I've got nothing. I'll wait till you've developed it more. :)


Cerno
I am really enjoying the composition of your piece. Very Lord-of-the-Ringsian and epic! I also love your merging of both the bull and dragon. Frankly, I'm kind of bored of reptilian dragons, so I think your take on the dragon is interesting and refreshing!

Some pointers you're welcome to disregard it they're not important to you... the wings look a little off to me. One is outstretched and one appears to be bent. I know the eagles below have nothing to do with your dragon per se, but I think they're good references in the way that you get an idea of what a winged animal looks like before landing or "pouncing" on something.

(http://bdml.stanford.edu/twiki/pub/Rise/AlexisLD/Bald-Eagle-Landing-Down-On-Tree.Jpg)
(http://www.wanderbirdcruises.com/images/photoalbum/birding/Eagle_Landing.jpg)

Both wings in the pics above are outstretched or curved slightly, and the legs and talons are stretched out as if they're reaching to grab something.

It might be interesting to try this out with your piece and see how it looks before moving on: Shrink the wizard and plateau to a smaller size and move them down a bit. I think this will make the dragon look more gigantic and threatening. By moving the plateau down a little too, you will have more space to stretch out the legs and open the talons a bit more. Just some thoughts. Hope they're helpful! :)


Andail
I've been really really enjoying watching you sketch out thumbnails for your pieces this past week. I think your composition is bomb. I'm also really enjoying the dystopian, dreary colors. It adds a nice bit of dread to the piece.

You mentioned before in a previous post that the perspective was weird and you were going to change it, so I won't comment on that. Since you're dissatisfied with the monster, I was trying to think of ways to make it cooler. Right now, it seems to be a sort of crustacean/bug monster. Since it appears to be levitating inexplicably right now, how about 4 or 5 sets of cicada wings? Or putrid gas bags maybe? I think that could look pretty cool. :)


selmiak
As I mentioned in the last thread... the composition's simple, but I like it! I'm really interested to see what kind of textures and colors you add to the monster in the following weeks.

One thing I'd suggest though is adding something on the rock with him/her/it to give the viewer some idea of how big the monster is. For example, a coin, or skull if he's really small, or a tiny person if he's really big.


****************************

PHEW! That took forever! :P Will post more as people continue to add their pics to this thread.

(http://i.imgur.com/nA6gpIB.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/6is2Zq5.jpg)

Same as it ever was...

Cerno:

QuoteI have no idea what I'm talking about, but is the cultist cliff's perspective correct? Shouldn't it be more flat? As it is, the sniper seems to be on top of their cliff, for which he is too far away laterally. Does that make any sense?

I kind of went with what felt right for the way I wanted to present the Elder God reaching down, so no, it's not accurate.  I'll do what I can to correct it a bit but I rather like the unsettling effect it has when I stare at it. Thanks!

Waheela:

Quote
Improvements... hmm... the thing that distracts me a little from the piece is the perspective of the plateau in the background. It's so slanted that I feel people should be rolling off the side...
...UNLESS THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT ME TO THINK and you're going for the Lovecraftian-style mind-defying geometry look. :-D If that's the case (which I hope it is because that's just @#$%ing awesome), you should push the landscape more. Make more parts of the plateau jut off at weird, gravity-defying angles.

One more thing, and it's small. I'd add a bit of shadow under the gunman's knee. I think it would make his crouch look a little more natural and ground him more on the plateau.

If I'd placed this inside a sunken city or something the off-angle would have been deliberate, with rocks floating around and such, but to be honest I just kind of liked how it slopes toward the Elder God, almost like an arrow.  I'll probably try some correction at the base, or I may add some floating debris around it now that you've given me the idea :).  As far as the gunman goes, I'm going to correct all the shading on him, darkening it to match the background cliff so I'll be sure to take care of the shadows as well as they are probably one of the most ominous aspects of the piece.  Thanks!

Here's my feedback, just a few words to point out the "feeling" I get from each piece. No bad critiques here because it's too soon, sorry Andail. I think that some works are too much sketchy to be criticized. But I will obey the rules and come up with negative aspects when I have a better idea of what to expect from final pieces.

Misj': judging by the way you draw I expect Disney quality stuff here. The way you framed your work is very pleasant as well.

Dactylopus: the white canvas and the overall "snow man" look remind me of Star Wars snow scenes. Please put your monster in a icy cave!

cat: very dynamic "jaws" feel here. It does look sharp even if you only drew some simple lines.

loominous: Artista

Prog Zmax: epic and complex frame, hope you pull it out!

waheela: feels like I'm playing Skyrim! Difficult stuff here but already looking good.

nihilyst: in love with the colours, tones and the size of your setting.

mordalles: a steady hand like yours will produce only but quality.

cerno: Epic! LOTR kind of epic! Go big, do it with no fears!

andail: love the Blade Runner palette. There's nothing wrong with your monster, the way it looks at you is quite scary and then the eyes drop to see people running from him. It works.

selmiak: creepy swamp monster you have there. It takes me to Gollum in the cave/pond scene.

sookiesock: Dungeons & Dragons Book Cover 1988. Classic stuff.

snarky: that's one scary mother. Really like the face, and the perspective of your scene.

(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/workshop_13-05-05_monster/stage_II_thumbnails_compilation_a01.jpg)

Miguel:
Looks nice, cool design, and I like the pose/expression. At this point I'd focus on experimenting with some lighting setups and backdrops, as the current ones are quite flat and uninteresting, and making sure the interesting parts pop out.

Misj:
Nice backdrop and flow, like the poses. The lack of values (or is she supposed to be white?) makes it tricky to get an overall impression though, which is what I'd focus on at this point.

dactylopus:
I like the low angle and the design could work out well with some nice dramatic lighting and backdrop. I'd focus on sketching out lighting and composition ideas, very roughly at first, then more refined when you're satisfied.

cat:
I like the roughness of the sketch, and that you've held off any details before going into values/colouring, as you're then able to experiment freely, without sticking to stuff because you like some rendering or details.

ProgZmax:
I like the triangular composition, the monster design, and it tells a story nicely. At this point I'd focus on trying out different composition ideas/lighting setups, before going into details and being stuck with renderings you don't want to ditch. The tricky thing with line art is that it doesn't tell whether a piece will work with values/colours, so you need to keep sketching up lighting ideas to see whether the piece will work as a whole, which is the point of thumbnails. It has the potential of being a very nice dramatic piece, or a flat composite of meticulously rendered elements. The easiest way to ensure the former is to work zoomed out (about the size of the above thumbnail, where you can't see any details), and work on the entire image, trying to make it work as light blobs. If you can show these blobs to someone and they go: "oo, looks like a nice pic!", then you've succeeded, and can start zooming in and add details, knowing that the piece will work as a whole.

waheela:
I like the idea and monster, and the sketching style in general, rough but readable. It's very flat atm, so I'd start differentiating areas value wise, preferably making important elements pop out, and subdue uninteresting ones.

nihilyst:
I like it in general, just feel rather flat atm, and the placement of boat is a bit on the edge of the pic. I'd try a lighting setup with light coming somewhere from around the boat to create a nice focus/interesting light setup, and creating more depth - since water contains plenty of scattering particles, you can add as much depth as you like atmosphere wise.

mordellas:
Looks very promising. Would start sketching in values asap, before spending more time on details, as you may end up finding that the current backdrop/composition doesn't work well with the lighting. Perhaps experiment with a lower angle? (the horizon is nice n low, but it would be nice to get a better sense of the scale of the (huge) monster).

Cerno:
Cool monster design, and nice roughness of the sketch (apart from the detailed claw like bubbly thingies), and with some tweaking it can be turned into a very nice dramatic scene. Atm I think the biggest thing to experiment with is the angle of the whole scene, making it less side view and flat and more 3/4 and with depth. While doing so, you could try pushing the values more, making things close the darkest, and the things furthest away brighter with very little contrast. Lastly, I'd try to achieve a nice focal point in the image, using values/lighting, where you choose a spot which you think is the most important/interesting, and making sure if pops out. The easiest is by making sure this area has the most contrast, either by having a dark object infront of a bright background, or a bright object infront of a dark, and making sure that the other areas have lower contrast, not to compete. You basically want the viewer's eyes to go straight to that point, and even when viewing the image as a small thumbnail our eyes should be drawn there, even though we have no idea what we're looking at.

Andail:
Looks neat, though a bit flat at this point, though I'm guessing you'll be tweaking these things. I'd either go for lots of atmosphere or punch, either could work in this case I think. It's kinda unclear whether you're going for a camera tilt atm, looks like it on the right, but not on the left. Think a tilt would work nicely in a dramatic/actiony scene like this.

selmiak:
Think you've created a nice focus/framing of the monster with the values and foreground. Think it's crucial to determine whether you're going to add any other characters at this point, as the composition/lighting needs to work for everything, so I'd focus on including all the major elements at this point, and setting up a composition/lighting that will make them pop.

SookieSock:
Cool idea n characters. I'd focus on making it more readable and exciting as a thumbnail at this point. Atm the monster kinda blends into the backdrop, instead of popping out, and there's no real light setup. You might have one in mind, but until you put it down, there's no real way to determine whether it'll work out as you wish. So I'd zoom out, and focus on the image as a bunch of blobs, and whether they work in this state, and forget about any details until you're happy with them in that crude state.

Snarky:
Really cool design, and I'm glad to see something more towards Tim Burton, though it may just be the sketching style. The angle is nice, but I'd experiment heavily with the backdrop, to ensure the piece doesn't fall due to a dull one.

-

Christ, with 14 entries this took its sweet time.

-

If someone wants to use the thumbnails/headers:


[img]http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/workshop_13-05-05_monster/stage_II_thumbnails_compilation_a01.jpg[/img]

[b]Miguel:[/b]
[b]Misj:[/b]
[b]dactylopus:[/b]
[b]cat:[/b]
[b]loominous:[/b]
[b]ProgZmax:[/b]
[b]waheela:[/b]
[b]nihilyst:[/b]
[b]mordellas:[/b]
[b]Cerno:[/b]
[b]Andail:[/b]
[b]selmiak:[/b]
[b]SookieSock:[/b]
[b]Snarky:[/b]

Loominous:

Quote
The easiest way to ensure the former is to work zoomed out (about the size of the above thumbnail, where you can't see any details), and work on the entire image, trying to make it work as light blobs. If you can show these blobs to someone and they go: "oo, looks like a nice pic!", then you've succeeded, and can start zooming in and add details, knowing that the piece will work as a whole.

I can give it a try.

Time for the critiques.  I didn't realize that so many of us had gotten involved, this is great!  It's also difficult, because some of them are still early sketches, and a lot of you are doing so well I can't imagine what I could say that would help in any way.  I tried to give a bit of good and bad to everyone.

Miguel: This is a wonderful piece.  I really love the design and attention to detail.  If I didn't know that Gorn was an inspiration, I would have said the hands are a little weak, but they actually look perfect.  My only question: What is he doing there?  He looks bored.  Maybe he could have some scraps of food or something in front of him.

Misj': I love this work.  You have a great style, and it works well in this image.  I love the expressiveness of the background characters.  The monster itself is a great idea, and looks truly beautiful and powerful.  While you've said this is set in a cathedral or church, I think it is better if that building is ancient and partially in ruin.  Just my thoughts, because what you have there already looks somewhat cavernous and I like it.

cat: I like the composition of your image.  The idea of a water dragon is awesome, and having it swoop down from the kelp forest is a really cool way of reconciling the differences between land and sea dragons.  I'm looking forward to seeing more detail.

loominous: This is fantastic.  The mood of your piece is wonderful.  The playfulness of the little creatures is great next to the large monster.  In a low contrast piece, I like the high contrast between the character types.  I would suggest not going the route of adding a whole hood full of them, though, as I think it would offset the scene a bit, making the kittens seem like the monsters in the room.

ProgZmax: I really like this elder god.  Your lighting on the left is going very well, and I am eager to see what full application will look like.    As far as the monster itself, I think the wings could use a bit of work, but it looks great.

waheela: This guy is awesome.  For some reason I doubt he's playing fair in that card game.  I like the He-Man inspired equipment as well.  I'm a little worried we're going to see up his skirt when it's all finished, but I trust you not to make him that monstrous.

nihilyst: This picture is very nice.  It has a sense of mystery and dread.  It's a bit tricky to notice the tentacles are even there, but I assume that's a part of what makes them so terrifying.  Also, I am curious about the scale, as it's tough to tell if that is a row boat or a galleon.

Mordalles: This thing is awesome.  It reminds me of some of the big creatures in Star Wars (mostly the prequels, like the Acklay).  The angle is nicely chosen, it gives a good overview of the scene and includes the scale of the monster.  I'm looking forward to seeing your color choices and lighting.

Cerno: I love the look of this beast.  The scene is set really well, and if I wasn't sure that was a wizard I would say that guy is toast.  The issue I see is that the bottom claws are somewhat unreadable.  I would definitely take a look at those eagle pictures, I think they could help.

Andail: This is a really nice scene.  The idea is great, and your monster is a looming menace.  I would consider adding some luminescence, mostly to the monster because your sci-fi environment still has a fairly natural feel that I think works.

selmiak: Your picture is wonderful.  The atmosphere and mood are great, and the monster, while indeed scary, has the most confused look on his face and I love it.  Another character might help to give a sense of scale, so I'd say go for that.

SookieSock: This is a fantastic shot.  There is a lot of energy, and a real sense of urgency on the part of the horse archer.  The faceless tree monster is a haunting thing to behold.  I imagine it having leaves (albeit dried, dead leaves).

Snarky: This is really cool.  It's one of the most interesting concepts, and it's coming along nicely.  The composition of the shot is great, really makes you feel like this is your new mother.  She's really creepy, too.  I'd like to see what the interior of the house will look like, and anticipate the colors.

And here's a little update on my own image:

(http://i43.tinypic.com/aay5if.png)

I traced the pencil drawing and moved some things around a bit.  I worked out the issue with him looking too tall, and a couple of the other proportion problems.  Don't mind the colors, I was just messing around.  I'd rather not have it be blue, actually, but it may stick because it looked better than other colors.  I also need to do something about the shoulders, I'm toying with the idea of adding more horns or something like that.

I'm pondering fur patterns and lighting next.  Lighting is another one of my weaknesses, so I'm trying to avoid what my instincts are telling me, which is to have the creature lit from a torch or flashlight held by the observer in front.

Thanks for the critiques, I've gained a lot of insight already!  I'm not likely to put this guy in an ice cave, although I like the idea.  The Wampa is a huge inspiration here, no doubt.  I am actually designing this as a piece of concept art for a possible game I've been planning, which would put this monster in a series of caves and tunnels below a mine.  But, if I ever do an icy setting, I could see a cold weather variant being a probability.

So when you're experimenting with lighting and composition, you really wanna keep it small n sketchy, to allow you to quickly try out ideas, or you'll run out of steam very soon.

The easiest way is to simply zoom out quite a bit, where you can no longer see any details, and work in that state, or, if you have a program like photoshop, just keep watching the navigator (thumbnail) window, and ignore the ugly blobs in the main window.

An additional benefit of working like this is that you'll run across plenty of "happy accidents", where the looseness of the sketch creates new ideas or seeds to ideas (one blob that you accidentally laid down may turn out to look like a weird cool tree stump, that you can keep n refine etc, or just ignore n paint over).

So in the case of dactylopus' monster, a very quick n sketchy idea could be this, which is basically just me slabbing down some shapes, without much thought (aside from the right lower cliff, which I paid at least some attention to:

(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/workshop_13-05-05_monster/dactylopus_stage_II_thumbnail_a01.jpg)

Despite it being very quick and boring, you still get a sense of the pic, and hopefully it looks fairly exciting, despite it being just some vague shapes.

Just to show just how messy these things look in full res, here it is. (http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/workshop_13-05-05_monster/dactylopus_stage_II_thumbnail_a01_org_size.jpg)

So yea, just try to ignore details as best as you can, and play around with blobs. If the blobs are exciting, details will be the cream on top of solid painting.

Btw, the grey border is there to try out a cropping of the image, and is just a grey solid on a topmost layer, which you can adjust as you want. This makes it easy to adjust the cropping at any point, as if you just expand the canvas size, you'll end up with no content in those hiddeen areas, whereas here you already have at least some sloppy blobs present.

It's so cool to see so many people doing this workshop together, the talent is amazing.
At this stage for most people I will probably just be commenting on what I feel might be missing. You might have already had every intention of including them it's just not down in the sketch yet.

Miguel

I really like the traditional sketching style of your monster; it reminds me almost of an etching, especially one of your earlier sketches. I think all the small details you have, each precise pen stoke really make this monster unique. The only real thing I have to say at this stage he looks a little top heavy, his head is half the size of his body. (If this is intentional though to enhance the foreshortening disregard this )

Misj

I love the setting for your image and the bright sunny colours. Will you contrast them to the monsters? Your monster itself is good and well thought out from looking at your earlier sketches but I feel the pose you have used for this image could do with a little improvement. If I hadn't seen your earlier sketches I wouldn't know from this image that the monster had a lions body, the view is too straight on. Even just making it slightly side on would improve this.

Dactylopus

The foreshortening of the monster is the thing that really stands out in this image.  At this stage the only real input I have to take the menace further is to slightly change the angle of the viewer slightly so we are looking up at the monster more, to make it look as if he is bearing down.

Cat

At this stage im not sure what feeling you are going for. I can really see this image along with your reference images being deep under the sea, maybe with limited visibility. I think the mouth of your monster could really be the focal point of the image
(http://i.imgur.com/NMwLP2F.png)
Maybe if you included the mouth from one of your earlier sketches, make it deep and dark, maybe even increase the foreshortening of the face area a little. You might have already had this in mind (sorry if this is the case)

Loominouse

First off, with yours loominouse the lighting is brilliant, and if it's going to go the same way as your earlier work then it's looking good. I really like at the moment. Your lighting has quite deep shadows which contrast nicely with the bright sunlight from the window.  At the moment it looks like the whole image will be warm but it might be nice contrasting that warmth from the window with a danker, darker floor.

ProgZmax

The potential story behind this image is the focal point at this stage I think. At the moment though im not sure the perspective is readable. The cliff that the cultists are on, is it supposed to be a hill with the point being the apex or is it flat? Changing the lighting or the angle could make it more understandable to the viewer

Waheela

I like the start you have made, and I think it does make the viewer question the story behind the image. I think maybe to make the monster more menacing like he is in the story you could make him taller so he towers over the fortune teller more. Your next step will be to add colour and lighting to the image, this will really change the overall feeling. Muted darker colours would make it more menacing bright warm sunny colours would make the image more playful.

Nihilist

The colours and the sketchy details of the monsters themselves are what really draw the view to this image. I like how the deep perspective of the image draws the view in. I think working with this and taking it one step further could be the only improvement at this stage, maybe making the image deeper and allowing us to see further back in the water. Having it in a bowl-like depression just closes things off too much I think.

Mordalles

This sketch is really good with the detail on the monster itself being what initially stands out for me. Ill reserve judgment for when you start adding lighting and colours. They will make or break this image I think

Cerno

I like the monster bearing down on the magician (it's got to be a wizard or magician with that pointy hat and staff) but your image is a little hard to read at this point, adding colours and lighting will improve this loads though. I have two main points for you to consider: What is the wizard doing? Is he is welcoming the dragon as a servant or is he fighting it? At this stage It could go either way. Also the background itself ends in a line with a very flat ‘horizon'. That's ok if we are in a cavern bit if this is outside it needs to extend off in to the distance.

Andail

I love the preliminary colours for this image and the perceived threat coming from the monster. Youve asked for critique specifically on the monster: To me the monster looks like a giant insect floating through the sky, maybe not after something specific but just out to do wanton destruction.
I think to make the monster more menacing with a more direct approach you could turn him slightly so he facing the direction he is going in (that is to say more downwards), increase the foreshortening and make him take up much more of the sky so he appears bigger bearing down on the view.

Selmiak

At the moment this monster doesn't look very menacing, with the only feeling of threat coming from the teeth. Everything else is very round and cuddly.  Looking back at your ref images:

(http://i.imgur.com/19pL5Iw.png)

I think this one of Gollum could be used to influence your own sketch to make him scarier.

Gollum is small in the image which just goes to show the monster doent have to be huge to be menacing. All Gollum's menace comes from the way he is crouched on the rock, he appears ready for any opponent all bunched up and ready to strike.
I really like the indistinct shapes surrounding him in the water, I know they were just quickly added but I don't think you should lose them entirely as the image progresses, tidy them up of course but I like the see-through, shadowy quality of them

Snarky

I really like the emptiness in the face as well as the room around the monster. It reminds me sort of the scene from the shining with the little girls in the corridor

(http://i.imgur.com/lXTRNgb.jpg)

I think the sketchy quality adds to this
It will be interesting to see how you colour this to keep the menacing, eerie feeling.

I haven't read anyone else's comments before posting this so I am uninfluenced and so that I give my first impressions.

This workshop is moving so fast ;) Reposting my monster:

[imgzoom]http://i.imgur.com/DUkQiKv.jpg[/imgzoom]

I've started writing feedback for you guys earlier today... that's a lot of monsters to comment on! 

Loominous:

I took your advice and zoomed out and did a very rough light and shadow application to the entire image.  I've disabled the layers with the detailed lighting and shadow I did on the two cliffs for now so this will look, as you say, very blobby, especially since I couldn't always see some of the fundamental shapes very well.

Still, I think it turned out quite well, though I want to push the highlights up more on some things and the darks on others.

Here is a thumbnail made at the size I was working on.  What do you think  (it's easier to make out on a darker background for now)?

(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/deadlydepthsthumbnail_zps895fe93c.png~original)

Prog:

Think it's a nice step, and reveals some of the challenges of the image (pretty much all images have these, so it's a matter of problem solving, and detecting these things early on is oh so much better than later). Also, as it often happens when one starts from black, it's quite on the dark side (it's the same as when you start from white, you tend to end up with bright images).

One way to check these things (as one quickly becomes accustomed to light levels, losing any objective sense), is to zoom out even more, and have a look:

(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/deadlydepthsthumbnail_zps895fe93c.png~original)

Basically we only see some white outlines on a black canvas, and while this could be the case of a night time image, artists do usually try to add some contrasting elements.

For reference, here's the cave thumbnail sketch I did earlier in roughly the same size:

(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/workshop_13-05-05_monster/dactylopus_stage_II_thumbnail_a01.jpg)

Might seem unfair to compare the two since it's a night painting, but a cave could well be pitch dark, but since I wanted more contrast to make things pop, I just added some light, and left the rationalization to poor dactylopus, should he choose to take the route.

Anyway, so the easiest way to introduce some big light blobs would be the sky, which is also incredibly handy, since clouds can look pretty much like anything, so you're free to mold it pretty much exactly to your liking.

Personally I'd focus on getting the monster to pop out of the backdrop, and since he seems dark, making the sky bright around him should do the trick, and would add some nice drama.

The second thing would be to get the shooter to pop, which is one of the challenges of the image. I think introducing some artificial light would be nice here, say, from a lamp, or torch on the ground. This would have some benefits: for starters, it would illuminate him, as there's little light at his spot. Secondly, it would provide warm light, that would contrast against the rest, and make him pop and add colour variation. Thirdly, it would help bring him closer, atmosphere wise, since we interpret warm coloured objects as being closer to us, further making him pop, and giving depth to the bg.

Just as important as the shooter, I'd really make the wizard at the edge pop, perhaps he's holding a staff with some nice lighting effects. Come to think of it, this should probably be the focal point of the image, so you should really try to come up with any reason to introduce contrast in this area. The monster is a big blob against a sky, the foreground guy is close and warmly coloured, so this guy needs his fair share of attention pullers.

Though this is messier, I'd also experiment with lowering the horizon. It shouldn't really affect the monster to any degree, and mostly the cliff. It would mess up the triangular composition to a degree, but I think it would be worth it, and should be solvable. Perhaps also moving closer to the shooter, making it feel more immediate, and personal. Having high angles tend to lead to a less urgent, distanced feeling, like watching an action scene from a chopper, rather than a hand held next to the actors.

Hello, my sketch here:

(http://i.imgur.com/2bwr8tf.jpg)

It's just a thumbnail, I know, hope this is alright :)

Loominous:

Quote
The second thing would be to get the shooter to pop, which is one of the challenges of the image. I think introducing some artificial light would be nice here, say, from a lamp, or torch on the ground. This would have some benefits: for starters, it would illuminate him, as there's little light at his spot. Secondly, it would provide warm light, that would contrast against the rest, and make him pop and add colour variation. Thirdly, it would help bring him closer, atmosphere wise, since we interpret warm coloured objects as being closer to us, further making him pop, and giving depth to the bg.

Just as important as the shooter, I'd really make the wizard at the edge pop, perhaps he's holding a staff with some nice lighting effects.

I was considering having a lamp but the idea is that he's doing this covertly and doesn't dare draw any attention to himself, so I introduced the idea of the lighthouse light shining in that direction and giving SOME illumination to his position.  As far as the cultist, eventually the book he's holding (the necronomicon) will be lit up as he holds it up for the Elder God to take.  I'm also experimenting with bringing a tornado-like effect from it going up into the clouds.

Quote
Though this is messier, I'd also experiment with lowering the horizon. It shouldn't really affect the monster to any degree, and mostly the cliff. It would mess up the triangular composition to a degree, but I think it would be worth it, and should be solvable. Perhaps also moving closer to the shooter, making it feel more immediate, and personal. Having high angles tend to lead to a less urgent, distanced feeling, like watching an action scene from a chopper, rather than a hand held next to the actors.

The horizon seems doable but I'm not sure about bringing the shooter closer.  I kind of like the idea of glancing over his shoulder close up (and it would eliminate the need for drawing another cliff) but at the same time I rather like his pose and such.  I dunno, I have to think about it ._.

Quote from: Andail on Tue 14/05/2013 19:29:45Misj, yeah don't worry too much about that.

Cheers!

Also, thanks everyone for the feedback (keep 'm coming). I hope to provide some feedback myself later today!

I continued working on the piece, in this case Sandra's clothing.
-- Visit original post (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48220.msg636454482#msg636454482) --

The opportunities with clothing are infinite; but they are also crucial to define a character. Depending on what you want you could go very classic or very outgoing. Now I can't say I'm very good at doing original clothing, but for this exercise I wanted to spend a bit longer on this subject.

Designing clothing for Sandra is unusual for two reasons: 1. the has a feline body, and 2. she has wings. As a result I cannot design anything that has to be pulled up, nor can I design anything that has to be pulled over the head. In other words: her clothing should be wrapped around her, and be closed either in the back or at the front.

Also, because of her character, I wanted most designs to be cloth-based (bright colours) with only the occasional leather or metal.

So here are some designs I came up with (front and back; bottom row are accessories). I don't know yet, which design I'll go for; but I kind like the right most of the second set. It's nice and simple (which fits the innocence of the characters). Ideas and comments are appreciated.
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa412/misj1270/Clothing_zps1d05cc10.png)

Here is a nice tutorial on drawin clothings: How to Draw Clothes by Paris Christou (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJsvErtDvFc)

(http://i.imgur.com/OGVdVMy.png)
I've had another play around with the pose of the monster, I'm much happy with this one

Now on to the lighting

Miguel: Scary monster with high level of detail. I like that you changed the tail. Now the colouring looks a bit flat, so I'm looking forward to your next version with shadows and stuff.

Misj: I'm glad you changed the monster to look more "monsterish". I like the composition a lot, the foreground monk adds
depth. Only the left wing bothers me a bit. I don't know if it is because it's cut or something different. I seems out of
balance.

dactylopus: I already gave you some feedback the previous week. I like the new version much better, the proportions work
really well and the hand in the front is scary.

loominous: Very atmospheric scene, immediately reminded me of this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Carl_Spitzweg_021.jpg/320px-Carl_Spitzweg_021.jpg). However, I'm missing the monster feeling a bit.

ProgZmax: When I first saw your last week's sketch, I was a bit worried how you will draw the attention to the focal point. But you did a great job with lighting to pull the priest(?) in focus. My only complaint would be that the gun man looks a bit stiff.

waheela: I think you created a very believable combination of man and crocodile. Your drawing shows the scene from your original post very well. However, I'm missing some emotion on the Kus' side. Is he aggressive? Curious? Even scared of the outcome of this fortune telling?

nihilyst: I like the organic look, a place where I definitely wouldn't want to be. I would love to see more variation in the saturation and contrast of your drawing. Try to play a bit with Aerial perspective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_perspective)

mordellas: I love the composition and details on your monster. Looking forward to see this colored.

Cerno: I think you captured very well that this is a heavy mammal that on one hand struggles a bit to stay in the air, but on the other hand can smash you with ease. I'm not too fond of the feet, though. They look like they belong to someone else. One suggestion for the next stage: Define your light source and see, where there will be shadows.

Andail: This pic reminds me of Aeon Flux. That's also the feeling I get from the moster - something hovering over the city, but not about to attack, only observing. I'm not sure if this is what you were going for, but I like it. I also like the composition and colors.

selmiak: As mentioned before, I like the atmosphere and pose of head and arms. But I think the tail is hanging too relaxed.

SookieSock: Wow, that's some scary tree... the missing face is great. The only thing that bothers me a but is the different level of detail of the tree and the knight - but I guess this is still work in progress, right?

Snarky: As mentioned before, I love the mask-like face, the perspective and especially the pose. Looking forward to what the interior and furniture will look like.

Kasander: I love it - it's so scary and weird, definitely one of the most original monsters in this workshop!

304: I like the lighting and the spikes of the monster. However, I think the pose is a bit stiff. On the other hand, it has a zombie-esque look now!

Edit: Just realised that some people added new versions of their drawings. If not mentioned otherwise, I refer to the drawing first posted in this thread.

Edit 2:

Quote from: Misj' on Wed 15/05/2013 18:12:11
I don't know yet, which design I'll go for; but I kind like the right most of the second set. It's nice and simple (which fits the innocence of the characters). Ideas and comments are appreciated.

The problem with this design is, it won't stay up - the slightlies movement and the scene will change from Disney innocence to R-Rated  ;)

thanks for the feedback thus far! i'll try and give mine too, but beware, i might drag you down with me! hehe.

Miguel:
I love the monste design. Great detail. He seems to be falling a bit over towards his left, and his feet's perspective seems to suggest the wall will start a bit lower (where it meets the floor).

Misj:
It certainly looks like a fun piece, and you have a great drawing style. I can't say too much other than, respect!

Dactylopus:
You really nailed the theme "monster"! The update really improves it quite a lot, and the larger head and hand was a great idea.

Cat:
I will also reserve to see how it progresses, but it looks like a great idea!

Loominous:
As always, simply a joy just to see any new image you conjur up. I always learn a lot just following your posts.

ProgZmax:
Love the whole concept, and you have one of the most amibitious projects in here. Looking forward to follow your progress.

Waheela:
I certainly never tried drawing something from 1st person, so much say I am impressed. The only thing I can think of now is that the monster's legs will probably be underneath the table, even from your viewpoint, unless of course, it is a very tall monster sitting with his legs next to table, and not underneath it.

Nihilyst:
Ooh, I love the whole design of the piece. Will follow with anticipation!

Cerno:
Great design! I love the look of the monster. All I can think is the wings itself. I'm no expert in wings, but I would think that when something flies his two wings will stay in line together to keep balance. So his rightwing's end point probably be in line with his other wing's end point. (in terms of height) not sure if i'm making sense.

Andail:
I also love the look of this, and can't much crit it at this point.

Selmiak:
Still a bit early to comment for me, but I think it looks great thus far. Will follow your progress!

SookieSock:
Just love the horse! Great motion shot! I am eager to see the progress!

Snarky:
Love the design of the character. I think the mood of the colours will really sell this picture!

Kasander:
Wow, just love the perspective. This too me is the scariest thing in here! love it.


an update on mine,
i'm going to change the shell pattern and eyes later on, but for now...
trying colours and values. kinda difficuly making the shape of the monster read from the background, but i will continue with this for the next week before i worry about painting details. i will worry about lightning a bit later also. first want to get basic values in there.
i'm looking for a more overgrown cavern with more greens :) :undecided:...
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercocept61.png)
and as loominous suggested, trying to make a very loosely painted monster stand out...
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercocept62.png)

Water dragon, week 2, step 1 - Color
Back to initial post (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48220.msg636454485#msg636454485)

So, update for my drawing!

I started to decide on the colors. The water is blueish green, the kelp yellow-green, so I decided for my dragon on purple to get some contrast here. Underwater there is not much perspective guides beside the kelp going up to the single focus point out of screen. So I intended to use Aerial perspective (does this name even fit for an underwater scene?) which basically means stuff that is farther away is less saturated.

My goal was to draw the viewers eye from the bright top to the mouth of the dragon. At the first try, I didn't succeed at all. It is colorful but looks flat and dull. You can especially see that in the desaturated version I put underneath.

I started to add more contrast but was still not satisfied. Finally I changed the purple to a bluer tone, added shadows on the dragon itself and darkened the mouth as suggested by SookieSock.

(http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/colorthumbs.png)

ThreeOhFour: Somehow I was hoping that he'd be ordering an umbrella drink at some lava-covered resort for monsters and demons. The summoning in an old mineshaft (my interpretation ;) ) adds some nice depth too though. I still think his pose is a bit 'boo!' rather than 'whrAAAArr!' though. Also I would place him a bit more to the right; I think he's currently a bit close to that piece of wood on the left, and their shapes get a bit mixed.

Miguel: I like the overall look of the monster. The green/yellow colour-palette make it very clear it's a reptile. I'm not entirely convinced about the hair though (since hair isn't really reptilian), and his fore-arms might need a second pass. I do like him as a chained monster though, and it nicely matches the despair in his eyes. Logic dictates a light-source from above, but I would love to see what a light-source from below would do to the image.

dactylopus: In the latest update I kinda miss the messiness/liveliness of the sketch. I've never been no fond of the very thin (single width) lines; but I also know that it works well for some artists, and it all depends on the way you render it. The foreshortening is very daring, but feel it works well with this pose. I would love to see some fog/smoke in the environment to have him appear from; that might add even a greater sense of depth.

cat: (not taking into account the last update) I think there's a lot of movement (and directional lines) in the chosen composition, that will work really well. I'm really interested in seeing the waterdragon come to life That being said, I do not envy you for choosing a (under)water scene...lighting and shadows are going to be a huge challenge; but I think it'll be worth it. I was wondering...is there going to be a light-source on/within the dragon itself?

loominous: Any image that depicts cat-like creatures in a positive light gets bonus points from me. The first thing I noticed, though, when I looked at the thumbnail (I didn't notice it in the full image) was that I though the character had a hood. Considering that his face is his most monsterish feature, I think that area should be left a bit more 'open'. Ever since the original sketch I've had a bit of difficulty reading the monster in the monster; you noted that "the 'monster' label will be used in a Quasimodo fashion, where it denotes freakish qualities, rather than scary", but it currently feels a bit like an old tired man in a library. From the sketch I tried to reconstruct the monster you envisioned, and I think there are some very nice ideas here that I know will fleshen out as you progress.

(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa412/misj1270/LoominousMonster_zps37e04a7d.png)
As I looked at my interpretation of your monster I thought a bit of Bordeaux red and some sort of monk's robe would fit him nicely (of course my interpretation of the monster can be completely wrong).

ProgZmax: I like the adventure-story finale-scene that you depicted, where the hero can't get close enough to the girl to rescue her, and has to disrupt the ritual from a distance (in a last desperate attempt). However, despite the ships and the characters I have a bit of trouble reading the (massive) size of your monster. I think this is due to the fact that he doesn't really interact with the foreground (yet). Also, I think if you lower the horizon he would become a bit more towering. Finally, because the man with the rifle is 'in the open taking his time to aim' the scene looses a bit of imminent threat. Maybe you could have him hide behind a few rocks preparing his one shot left (yes, I know he has more bullets in the box).

waheela: I've already given you some feedback, so I'll just add that I like the crocodile and the grave-yard background. I think the expression on the croc's face will be a challenge, but nothing I think you can't handle.

nihilyst: As with Cat's image, underwater lighting and shadows can make this piece really stand out. I like the monsters, but I think you could umpf the threat to the overhead ship. Oh, and I like use of the rough terrain with monsters in multiple angles.

mordellas: I kinda love this one. Especially the look on the monster's face...she's not evil (I imagine it's a mother protecting her offspring from the people invading her living space). I actually think it would work great in black and white; like some of the work of Doug Tennapel.
(http://www.comicsreporter.com/images/uploads/blackcherryend.jpg)

Cerno: In my version of this image the wizard controls the dragon; because I like dragon-controlling wizards (on top of a volcano). I think the monster itself is interesting...weird, but interesting; but I would look into his anatomy a bit. This could also help make his pose a little more threatening and dynamic. I like the wizard, and - to me at least - he steals the scene. I think his pose and the directional line towards the monster are strong, and I would build the image around that (rather than around the monster). All the lava would make for an interesting lighting by the way.

Andail: Yes, science fiction monsters in a post-apocalyptic world! - I don't know what the guy in the car is currently doing (is he getting into the car, getting out, trying to open the door?); but as that part of the story fleshes out a bit, I think it's going to be really nice. I would place the monster a pit more to the left and possibly have him interact with one of the buildings. And while I like his design, I would love to see a version where he's just a (fuzzy) looming shape in the fog where we could make out only very few features such as his beak and eyes.

selmiak: The slug/frog-mutant-thing makes me smile; it reminds me of something that could live in the world of Space Quest. It might not be the most menacing monster around, but I can see Roger die in this scene (as he regularly did in SQ). Personally I would embrace that look, and role with it.

SookieSock: I think the new pose is nice and strong. It's both solid/massive and menacing, so I would definitely continue with the new sketch. I'm not entirely sure how arrows are going to stop a living tree though; maybe if the arrows are on fire, and the tree is burning? - Also, I would love to see the horse jump over the 'arms' of the tree as he tries to grab him (I can easily see that happening in the new pose).

Snarky: The oddest of all monsters, and it kinda reminds me of the Edna & Harvey game combined with some Rugrats. The monster appears to be both careful and creepy which is a very intriguing combination I think. This is a piece that I would love to be rendered in pure back-and-white because I think it will add a lot to the overall feel.

First of all - watching this workshop unfold is a real treat. Thanks and kudos to all the participants, and to Andail for starting this beautiful thing!

Now, to the individual pieces:
 
Miguel:
The monster with the thorn in his side, behind whose hatred there lies a murderous desire... for love. He's not strange, he just wants to live his life this way. No, scratch that, he is strange. I actually like how thoroughly strange and creepy, yet somewhat vulnerable(in a strange, creepy way) this guy is. I really like the detailed comic book-like penicls as well.

The colours could use some work, though. Try picking more complicated, less saturated colours or just throw a third colour over the whole thing to start tying the piece together. Also, I think you can skip the proper light rendering here and go for a stylized comic book look. I think It could work really well with Moebius(or most other bande dessinée artists) style colouring.

Misj:
Everything seems pretty good here so far. I like how much time you're spending on creating and designing the main character - it's more of an animator's approach, and it's interesting to see it in the illustration workshop. The composition is really solid so far too - like the arches and character placement. The only potential problem I see here is the low value difference between the background and the right(her left) side of heroine's body, but I'm sure that'll be fixed with the addition of clothing. Oh, and the other problem is that I just wrote "heroine" and had no intention of changing that - she definitely doesn't feel like a monster. I'm sure we'll find it in our hearts to forgive you for that and enjoy the final result. :)

dactylopus:
There's an action shot if I ever saw one! Good job on capturing the monster's intensity, other than that - keep working on it and always listen to loominous. :)

cat:
Loving this composition! Very striking, effective and energetic. The only obvious problem with it is that it's not very defined and doesn't allow for a lot of extras, so everything will depend on the rendering of large forms and getting the atmospheric perspective(yeah, probably not aerial in this case :)) just right. In any case - a very promising start, good luck!

loominous:
Always a treat to watch your process. Very much looking forward to seeing where you'll take this, because although it's looking great and very atmospheric already, I cannot at this point imagine what it will look like in full colour.

ProgZmax:
Love the epic feel, the lovecraftiness and that it tells a story. It's a pretty ambitious project, hope you'll get it done. Loominous has already covered most of what I wanted to say about this, so I'll just post this edit I scribbled for a thumbnail (Okay, I know we're not supposed to make edits, but it's tiny, unusable and can almost pass as a new thing. I also won't do this again, I promise :D).

[imgzoom]http://i.imgur.com/Qr2leAQ.jpg[/imgzoom]

waheela:
What a charming fellow! Seriously, there's something about this character that just grabs me, hope you'll manage to retain that je ne sais quoi in the colouring. Good luck!

nihilyst:
Good take on the topic, going slightly beyond simply "huge". Looks interesting and dark and depressing so far. :)

Mordalles:
Ok, this is just awesome. Awesome monster design, awesome details, awesome composition and sense of scale. Another good candidate for Moebius/comic book-style colouring, in my opinion, although the dark painted thing you're going for looks great too. Top marks, really looking forward to seeing the finished piece.

Cerno:
Cute! It may not be the best entry technically, but it has plenty of it's own charm - now you just need to find a palette that enchances this charm.

Andail:
Really digging the sci-fi setting, the warm, sickly, traditional art feeling of the colour scheme and the upward dynamic here. The monster itself is interesting enough as well, so all that's left is refining it.
So good luck with that, you're going to need it! :P [because there's a lot of stuff to paint here]

selmiak:
Don't have much to say about this one, except for I'm getting a slight Futurama vibe from this guy. :)

SookieSock:
Excellent, dynamic sketch, especially with the new pose. The colour palette is very atmospheric and harmonious too. Good work so far!

Snarky:
It's at a pretty early stage, so it's hard to say anything constructive, but I like the very particular brand of creepiness that it possesses and the choice of the angle is definitely a good one.

Kasander:
Really love how energetic and dramatic all your sketches are. The monster is really compelling and well though out, really scary too. Easily the most horrific one of the bunch, but because of the backstory - the one that I empathise with. Also, it made me go through some of the new Swamp Thing comics drawn by Yanick Paquette and that made my day. Thanks for that. :)

Ben304:
I like the design of the demon, but his pose is a bit stiff and nondescript. Coupled with a very backgroundy background it makes the whole scene feel somewhat lifeless and staged. I'm sure you could make it look nice, seeing how that's you, but I feel you should try an entirely different, more dramatic and illustration-appropriate composition for this. :)

Good luck to everyone who's working on something - all of this is really, really cool! Here, have another cup smiley: :)

Ivan, good Ivan, let's say that he's the son and the heir of a shyness that is criminally vulgar.

Colours, oh colours. If only I could see them like they really are! I'll tell you this, I'll consider going the Moebius way, although I really wanted to be able to pull this out by myself.

But Keats and Yates are on my side.

Ilyich:

I really like what you did with the thumbnail!  It didn't occur to me to keep the monster's face in silhouette like that but I'm liking how it looks.  The green is also a nice touch for the clouds, though I want to experiment with tarnished reds and save the green for the big monster himself.  I do really like the overall effect, though, and I might give something like that a try.

RESPONSES TO FEEDBACK

@Cerno
Thanks for your thoughts, Cerno! You suggested some good stuff! Left out the sword in my next draft, but I tried to change
his hands, size, sitting position, and face to make him more threatening. I'm still not completely satisfied with his face,
so it will likely change in later drafts. :)

@miguel
Coincidentally, I've been playing Skyrim again recently. Maybe this has indirectly affected my piece. :P

@loominous
Yeah, the original sketch was kind of flat. Currently working on shading now. Thanks for your feedback!

@dactylopus
True dat. Corrected the "looking up the skirt" thing with my pic. Thanks for your thoughts!

@SookieSock
Thanks for your critique! I agree with what you mentioned, so I made Lord Jagged bigger compared to the fortune teller in the foreground, and made him take up more space in the pic. Hope this helps fix the issue. :)

@cat
Very good point, cat. Since I'm not working with a human face, this is definitely one of my most difficult challenges so far. I'll continue to work hard to correct this issue with each draft.

@Mordalles
Definitely food for thought, thanks for your feedback! I ended up changing my composition based on your critique and I think it looks better. :)

@Misj'
Thanks for your confidence in me! :P

@Ilyich
Thanks! :)




WEEK 2, STEP 1: COLOR, REVISION, AND THE BEGINNINGS OF SHADING
(Updated original thread) (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48220.msg636454495#msg636454495)

First off, I began with a rough color study based on some of my reference images. I didn't really spend that much time
on the marble or human skin, and the overall colors will continue to evolve anyway with each draft as I fiddle around with the
color balance setting in Photoshop.

(http://i.imgur.com/EFi7lV6.png)
(Accidentally made his chest blazon green and not purple. Will change later.)


After this, I went back to my piece and made some changes based on the feedback I received from you guys.


(http://i.imgur.com/ktmHUON.png)  ------>  (http://i.imgur.com/bH0sY7d.png)

I changed Lord Jagged's hands to make them more threatening based on Cerno's comments (and face, see below image).
I also made him larger compared to the fortune teller and made him take up more space based on Cerno's and SookieSock's
critique. I corrected his sitting position based on dactylopus', Cerno's and Mordalles' suggestions, and lastly,
changed the human's hands and cards after reviewing the feedback Misj' gave me.

Below is a WIP. Still not happy with his face. Will work more on this tomorrow.

(http://i.imgur.com/BvP2D4i.png)

@waheela I like your first colored version, but there are some issues with the last one:

I like the change of the hands, they convey much more emotion. But the big tummy makes him look obese instead of big. There is also a lot of pillow shading going on, especially on the arms and belly. Take another look at your first colored version, although it's rough and not defined, you did a much better job there with shading.

@Ilyich Thanks for your comment! What do you mean by "it's not very defined and doesn't allow for a lot of extras"

cat, I just meant that it's a pretty loose, sketchy sketch that focuses more on the overall composition and motion, rather than on the design of individual elements. And the way it's structured, adding more elements and objects might start confusing things a bit. Having a loose, simple sketch is a good approach, really, but there is a chance you might end up getting lost in the blank parts of your canvas when painting straight from this. Then again, you might not - depends on how comfortable you are with straight on painting and detailing without the guiding "pencils".   

Ah, thanks for elaborating! I'll keep that in mind.

Phew...It took me ages to write!
You guys just turn a blind eye on all those grammar and language mistakes I've undoubtedly committed.

It's all written in a good spirit, so I hope nobody feels offended or anything. It's quite obvious that some of you are more experienced and some are less. I just wanted to shout out to the not-so-experienced ones: you folks are doing great and can only get better. But I suppose you already know it ;).

@ Cerno

To paint attacking dragon is an ambitious task so I can only praise that kind of attitute :) I like the tension and stark contrast between huge dragon and tiny wizard. I like the idea with the platform on which wizard stands, it's very expressive.

The most important thing that I wanted to suggest is what loominous already said: a 3/4  view for the composition. As it is now, the dragon appears to be flying from the side of the screen, while the wizard stands on a platform that points across the screen.

Since the platform is a triangle and it points towards dragon, it kind of 'attacks' the monster visually (and the wizard, as the one that stands on the platform is, I could say, in the 'attacking' team/party).

Let's have a look at this simplified drawings here (inspired by Frazetta, thanks to Andail's links).

(http://i.imgur.com/eeIL71K.jpg)

When you'll have your dragon's pose set, you could try to visually empower/amplify his 'attacking stance' by trying to give the background behind it a shape that somehow resembles a triangle pointed at the wizard (you can do that by shaping the rocks or volcanos or... I'll just leave it to you). Pointed shapes in composition, when facing each other, create a feeling of tension. Well, that's something to consider for later.

Apart from boosting the dynamic/expression of the painting, the 'triangle versus triangle' or the 'triangle versus circle' could become a sort of archetypical clash, for example like between the fire-breathing-dragon and water-elemental-mage. It's just one of the possibilities. From my experience I know that adding some meaning (even if it's a kind of coloristic meaning) makes one's work more powerful. So that's another thing for you to consider.

(http://i.imgur.com/f9HKGyw.jpg)

Waheela had a great idea with posting the 'attacking eagle'. Just study it and try to put your dragon in similar pose. If it proves difficult, try to simplify it to basic figures and shapes like circles and align its limbs according to lines of perspective. I was never good at these skeleton-sketches which Misj do with such ease. He would certainly do a much better one! Anyway, I just wanted to point out that this dragon of yours seems to have some parts of a reptile and parts of a flying creature, like bat (well, one part at least - wings)... Perhaps you could find some other living creatures (or ex-creatures, like dinosaurs) who could model for your monster and could be simplified into basic shapes. 

One more thing to consider: As it is with miguel's monster, your dragon's upper limbs seems to me to be 'too human'. I think you could try to make them more reptile-like. Try looking for photographic references of dinosaurs, crocodiles, or perhaps some other animal that somehow resembles a dragon in this aspect and could lend your monster a pair of hands ;)

EDIT: You could have a look at these guys:
http://www.floridajewel.com/animals/lizards.htm

@ Shane

Your Cthulhu painting seems to be the most ambitious painting of the workshop to me. So much has to happen there, so many elements you want to include. There are 3 parties in the composition and there are at least 3 major actions happening at the same time - while most of the illustrations visualize only one or two 'actions' (man fighting with monster, the prince saving the princess etc), and show one or two 'parties' (by 'party' here I mean at least 1 person or creature being on one side of the conflict or event). Even then people sometimes have trouble telling what are they about.

The monster's stance - one hand raised, the boat crushed in the other - speaks about hostility - which, seems to be aimed towards the petty mortals gathered on the cliff. The sharpshooter - with rifle aimed at the main cultist in the crowd - is obviously hostile towards them too. The problem is, at first glance I thought the sniper was monster's sidekick.  That's because he's on the same side of the screen the monster is. Only reading your description made things more obvious.

IMO, placing all of the three 'parties' in the straight perspective line could help to make things clearer. With 'sniper (A) in the foreground (on the left OR right side) , then the cultists (B) in the middle, then the monster (C) in the background (cornerwise to sniper).

--------- CCC --
------BBB------
--AAA----------

Getting rid of one of the 'parties' could prove an easier fix, but I like your ambitious  idea.

+++

I like the ambitious, epic scale of your painting. It really feels like a half of Lovecraft's short story squeezed into one picture :)

@ miguel

Your monster's arms seem a bit too human to me. I'd suggest transplanting a set of tyrannosaurus rex arms, I think something like that could fit well.   

You also *could* try to make the wall appear less monotonous, now it's pretty ordinary wall with brick by brick by brick. But it's not that much important imho. All of the viewers attention is directed at the monster, and I like it that way.
If you plan to chain the monster to the wall, you could try to make it appear desperate/resigned/depressed/frustrated/angry  - like any captured animal, including human, could feel... so the viewer could somehow relate to it. His face is big, so you should have no trouble with showing any emotions there :)   

+++

I like the huge, disproportional face. It's also nicely and accurately lit. I also like that the monster is captured, in starkly contrast with the all free-roaming monsters in this workshop.

@ Misj'

Your monster's wing is cropped in quite unfortunate way. A wing is an irregular shape, more complicated than any rectangles or circles, so it's not so easy to crop. In your monster's case cropping it further would jeopardize the sense of composition, the sense of having such fine-winged creature in your painting. That's why I'd rather suggest to move the monster to the right and save her from crippling :) That way the monster would also appear in one of the power points of the composition. By the 'power points' I mean the points of crossing lines in the 'rule of thirds' type composition (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thirds or here, with more examples: http://www.photo96.com/blog/?p=371).

Diggression
(@ for everyone!):
If there's someone in this worshop who's reading about the rule of thirds for the first time, then I suggest looking further than wiki. The above links show photo examples but the rule is really ages old, and was in use long before the advent of photography...as well as other commonly used composition principles, like golden ratio. Well, you could always consider reading a book on composition techniques (especially if there are paintings included as examples).
End of diggression, going back to Misj'!

The other problem is the one you've noticed yourself. The 'cuteness' of your creature, which results from using the cartoony style :) This is the monster's workshop, but she's not quite that 'monstrous'...at least not yet;) But it's debatable I suppose, perhaps other folks here would call her that.

+++

I like all of the characters' poses (expressive and well executed poses!) and the fact that your painting tells a story. It's also a clear, instantly readable story, which is a great plus.
     
@ dactylopus

(written BEFORE last updade - you're just too fast dactylopus:))
Another ambitious artist here. That's a difficult pose you've picked for your monster here.
You could find some decent photographic references for human limbs, look at them and try to apply to you painting. Then you can add some demon hair ;)

I could also suggest two ways this composition could go: you could try to (drastically) lower point of view as if 'the camera' was behind humans back, and the human would find himself below the monster and between its spread legs. With the demon reaching out to grab human, its hand would be probably just as big as human itself. So that's one idea -it would boost the expression but you would have the monster at the most difficult angle to draw. And you'd probably have to cover monster's private parts with its reaching hand :)
Other idea: since the monster is gigantic, let's make it look even bigger. In order to do that, you could crop the picture by cutting out the parts of cavern around the demon. Then you would probably have to make human visible and closer to the monster by elevating him, placing on some rock platform or bridge or something. Now, this would make reaching for his meal much easier for the monster, I'm sure it would appreciate the effort;) 

+++

I like the monster's scale versus human, I like the fact you went the hard route and chose a dynamic pose for the demon.
EDIT (after your last update): I like it in color. Still you could use some human references for this guy.

@ cat

Can't tell much about it at this point;) 
I like the dynamism and the perspective lines which add even more expression. I wonder what you will make of it. Looking forward to see your monster's monstrosity :)

@ loominous

I like it a lot. Beautiful Rembrandt-style lighting and warm sepia tones. I wonder if/how you will broaden the palette and which way you'll go with it! :)

@ waheela

The distance between two hands seems too wide to me. It's a bit like we were looking at the scene through a camera with wide-angle lenses. I'd suggest showing more of the right hand by pushing it forward a bit, and placing left hand (with the card) up, in one of the power points of composition (see 'rule of thirds' above). That way you could also play with the card and even show us a picture which is on it (if it's tarot). Since it's fortune telling, maybe it's the one card the monster wouldn't want the fortune-teller to pick? Or the opposite... You know what I mean. It's up to you.

You could also try to make the monster lean forward towards the fortune-teller. It would shift monster's bodyweight to the one supporting hand and could potentially make an interesting pose and face expression (like: 'I don't believe in this tarot stuff but I'm gonna try it anyway' or 'if she lies about my past now, I'll have her for dinner').

+++

I like your idea very much. The use of first person point of view is quite uncommon in illustration. It remind me so much about Joe Dever's and various kinds of CYOA books that I was reading ages ago. Yeah...ubercool books which used to turn teenagers into heroes ;) Maybe it would help more to search for them or at least google for illustrations. You could also play/google some FPP games like Skyrim in which you spend a lot of time looking at your character's hands ;)

@ Nihilyst

At the beginning your sketches were very dark (almost unreadable) so I'm glad things are getting clearer now, and that the picture still retains that gloom & doom feel. Your idea of monster is very interesting and I'm looking forward to see more :) The thing I miss a bit is the focal point in the composition that would grab my attention. As of now it's very homogeneous, 'background-like' composition. Consider if you could and should break this uniformity by some flicker of light on one of those 'monstrovolcanos', or a change of texture, or, I don't know... Perhaps some small monster who would live off the humongous one?

@ Mordalles

I like how you've approached the 'construction' of this monster. The risk of crossing the turtle with insect paid off. I like its shape, its scale in comparison to small humans below. I'd really like to see it move, it would make a cool addition to your next game :)
Perhaps you could spread and bend monster's 'fingers' (at least in the front legs) so they would appear more flexible... This would increase creature's mobility and give him ability to grab things. They look a bit too much like tree branches now.

Anyway, this looks like a piece of good concept art to me. Bravo! :)

@ Andail

I hope this won't upset you too much ;)

I must say I liked the fat monster from the previous sketch (floating1.png) more than the current, thinner one. It was looking more majestic, more 'B-47 flying fortress' type, while the new one is a kind of 'F-15 fighter' type. Maybe the new one doesn't seem deadly enough to me yet, I'm not sure. Or maybe it's just me and it's only a matter of personal preference.

In general, I was VERY impressed by the look of your old sketch and by its raw, kinetic power. It also seemed a cool and clever idea to have such a huge monster occupying so little space on the painting. IMO, your current sketch (as of Wednesday night CET) isn't as good. I really think you've nailed everything in the first one. The thing that I loved the most was that there were two pairs of eyes as the focal points of composition. One pair (cold white eyes) belonged to the monster in the distance, while the other (red back lights) belonged to the vehicle in the foreground. I'm not sure to what extent it was or wasn't intentional, but thanks to this 'eyes-to-eyes' analogy I've observed, I started to interpret your painting as an eternal clash: nature (here represented by an ages-old monster) versus civilization (represented by this new type of vehicle).

And now something about the new one, for a change :) What I like a lot about you current sketch is the fact that the monster appears from behind the building so there's no telling how humongous this really is, there's only a suggestion it's huge. I also like the dynamic perspective of the buildings and the bend. I'm really curious about which way you'll go with this.

I wish you could  go back to the 'no.1' later and finish it by just adding more details (that is, after you end with the current one) if you have the will and time, so we could compare them and see which one works better. Or maybe I'm wrong and you'll surpass that old one and make me forget about it. That's what I wish to you. 

@ Selmiak

I like the ambience of your painting. As you've said, you could add something or someone to the picture to make things a bit more dramatic. There's still some space left on that stone :) 

@ SookieSock

You've decided to give your monster human joints. This makes a wood-solid, ent-like creature appear less believable. The guy is basically a walking tree-trunk and... well, I just can't believe you can bend a tree like this, it'll snap! I think you could either make the monster (and his joints) more human, or more 'entish', more tree-like. You could also think about what to do with that black hole in the trunk. IMO, you should put your monster's weak point there (eyes or brains etc), so the whole situation with the archer aiming at it seems credible and convincing.
 
I love the amazon/archer on a horse. It's such a difficult pose. You surely know how to paint those beasts... Well done! :)

@ Snarky

I'll join the others in the choir: great choice of perspective (and one of the trickiest angles to draw).  You could push it even further and try to 'rotate' the floor clockwise or counter-clockwise so the floor line wouldn't be parallel to the border of the painting as it is now. This would make it more dynamic, but would probably require changing the composition from the centre-oriented (with monster in the centre of picture) to a 'rule-of-thirds' type (monster/monster's face in one of the power points of the composition). You could also try and put a fish-eye lens on it (if only for fun ;)). Even a cow looks somehow unsettling in a fish-eye: http://www.photoplusmag.com/files/2012/11/Photoshop-Elements-fish-eye-finish.jpg ;)

-------------------------

That's all for now folks. It was quite draining and I'm a slow writer. I hope it won't be too out-of-date in the moment I post it because of newly uploaded sketches & monsters :)

Cheers and have fun with your monsters, everyone!

---last (?) EDIT (16.05 past 10 PM CET): I hear grammar police knocking at my door. I knew they were looking for me for a long time but I thought changing my identity would help... I was wrong. Well, it was nice having this monster workshop with youuuuuuuuuuuuu
---EDIT 2: Grammar police said I should edit digression (see above). This digression is like doing public works, it's for everyone, they said, all the public should benefit from this. So I've edited it. Who knows, maybe I'll serve shorter term now?

COMMENTS

Miguel:
You did a great job on the head. That's one scary monster, and I'm curious to see how you will proceed with it. But I don't really like the backdrop, having just a wall there is not too exciting.

Misj:
Great concept. She's kind of cute and dangerous at the same time. The clothes' designs are gorgeous, but I don't have a favorite yet. However, the location looks like it is not that huge. Wouldn't such big wings be hard to handle then?

dactylopus:
The most abominable snowman! I dig the head, and I'm curious to see the lighting setup. loominous has shown a great example.

cat:
That has the potential to be one frightening illustration. Covering parts of the dragon gives it mystery, letting him attack from above makes him dangerously inescapable. Your illustation screams "SURPRISE ATTACK!". Great!

loominous:
At first I was a bit disappointed that you've chosen to draw a character that -- for my taste -- resembled a human too closely. But the longer I look at him, the more do my bones chill. That long, covered up body only gives a sense of what might be hidden under it. Now he's creeping me out, and that's a good thing, I guess. As always, the lighting setup is superb.

ProgZmax:
I'm not too fond of the cliff's perspective. You manage to tell a story, which I like. I really like Ilyichs colour-paintover; it just fits.

waheela:
Now that's different. Playing card with a monster. Makes you wonder who the first person might be. The repositioning of the hands gives it a dramatic effect, like he has been tricked or something. I like the first colored sketch. The textures and speckles give him personality, although I'm not sure where this scene is taking place.

Mordalles:
That sketch is awesome, and the colours really add to it. Nothing more to say. I'm excited to seeing the progress.

Cerno:
Dramatic scene. The pose still looks kind of wrong to me, but I'm not the right one to give you feedback on that topic.

Andail:
The monster looming from above is a great concept, although I could imagine bringing it in the foreground, a bit like cat's illustration, with the monster already chasing the bike, crashing the edges of buildings as it races through the streets. Nevertheless, I also like how it is looking now, the glowing eyes saying something like "Gotcha!"

selmiak:
That monster looks kind of cute, I can't help it. It might be the mouth or the "what's up?" kind of face. Don't know if that's what you were aiming at.

SookieSock:
My favorite! That tree monster gives me the creeps; I could easily imagine wandering around, when suddenly this thing starts to move.
The shot you've chosen is very dynamic, a perfect action scene!

Snarky:
Creepy, although, as others have said, this might work best in pure black and white. In fact, I could even imagine this being the final illustration in a children's horror novel. I have absolutely no idea how you might proceed with this apart from pushing the detail level.

Kasander:
Great monster, and already with so many details! You're on a good track to having an awesome illustration. My advice: Just keep going! :D

TheeOhFour:
Interesting setting, great monster. But it looks like it's dancing Gangnam style or something. Can't put my finger on the problem, though.

------------

I'm not sure how to proceed with mine. What's a proven method? Taking the sketch, blowing it up to 4000px and using it as a guideline, sketching anew? Start from beginning, using it as a reference? I've never done that kind of workflow before. Any advice?

Hello!

Miguel I really love how much fur you gave this guy, awesome idea. I really think some foreground objects would add an extra level of depth to your image, though. :)

Misj' I like how much action there is in the scene, and especially that our hero isn't the only focus there. I think it could use some furnishings - assorted objects other than just arches there, to help convey the setting better, though.

dactylopus Great use of scale vs the tiny character - however I think you should work on that little person's body language, to make them seem more like they're afraid/shocked.

Cat I love the use of lines to give a sense of perspective, that's a great idea. Have you thought about some foreground stuff to help frame the beast a bit better?

loominous Beautiful, I really like your sense of lighting. I'd like to see the window frames have consistent shapes, rather than the near one be interesting and the far one be straight - though no doubt you've thought of this.

Shane I pretty much covered yours in skype, but as we've discussed some more rocky features at the base of the cliff would look great.

Waheela One of my favourite designs, I really like this idea. I'd like the background object to have some stuff of more varied size though - have you thought about putting a tree or something behind those gravestones?

nihilyst Looks sensational, great sense of depth! The top edge of the crater is very smooth and even, though, it may look nice with a bit more character/variety there.

mordalles Awesome as usual. Really can't think of anything to pick on here.

Cerno I like how much action your scene has, but I think your mountains are all very low and flat. Some further height variation in that background would be lovely!

Andail Interesting idea, I like the science fiction vibe this gives off and the insectoid shape of his face. The city feels a little empty though, possibly because there are so few buildings. I'd like to see more city density behind the trees in the distance.

selmiak I like the attention to framing with the stalagthings, and the pose of the creature, but I think I'd like to see really strong, bold lighting in such a situation, and really focus on the creatures highlights and shadows to give his form depth.

Sookiesock Lovely active pose, particularly the horse and rider. The tree creature would look great with some softer materials added to it - leaves, moss, hanging vines, etc, to give a sense of age and roughness.

Snarky I liked your idea from the start. I'd really like to see some dress trailing behind, and perhaps a car/cart/building in the outside scene.

Kasander Genius monster design, great level of detail. The background lacks some character, though, and it'd look great if you added stuff beyond just vague organic shapes.

And for my progress:

(http://i.imgur.com/1YSgIcV.jpg)

I've started trying to work my thumbnail into an actual picture taking into account various crits (thanks!), particularly the creature's pose. I think his hands should be doing something... dunno. Also I killed one of my lightsources, because it was getting too crowded in there.

opinions, critiques and other in order of appearance: (related to the first sketch posted in the thread)

miguel: The monster design is very interesting, a creepy face and a reptilian body, this give the chillz. the tail looks a bit short and is formed in a strange way. The arm on the right looks a bit thinner than the one on the left. For the technique, I wouldn't have drawn in that much detail in a pencil sketch as you just have double the work when painting it in whatever program you use for it, see stuff on mordalles' stuff.

Misj': Very nice comnposiion of the whole scene, Hard to find anything to criticize, so let me say the 4 legs irritate me a bit in the sense that I'm having a hard time imagining if they all grow out of the same hips or if the demon has a goat/horse likle body. And a crazy idea for improvement: maybe you find the time to make one (or all) of the windows from stained glass and have some really interesting colors and lightings in there... and you're crazy with ALL these clothing designs. ;)

dactylopus: interesting perspective and you can already feel the raw movement of the monster coming at the viewer. Don't forget to give all the fingers these spikey nails. I'm quite interested in what environment you put the monster.

cat: There is a really nice dynamic in the movement of the waterdragon, but as I see things, he won't be breathing fire :P There is something not that fitting in the colorscheme in your sketches, seems to bright and high of contrast but it's onyl a sketch, so let's see where you take it.

loominous: very ambient atmosphere and great volumes in the sketch but the character doesn't seem that monsterish at all to me, but I'm still very interested in your progress on this piece.

ProgZmax: Cool concept you got there. make good use of the 3 stages of lighting with the lighhouse in the background, the fire and some other light for the sniper in the foreground. The giant lobster will be covered by chtulu, so maybe move this beast over to the right between the lighhouse and the fire. Also this needs lots of waves and lightning.

waheela: what an insane idea, a crocodile monster with some human appearance playing cards (probably cheating, the monster it is) on a graveyard. for the colored version light is coming diffusely from the front, maybe try to set the lightsource to the left side and light everything from the side. just try it for a quick sketch.

nihylist: this is a very threatening atmosphere without a really visible monster but you can already sense danger lurking inside these plant/creature cysts. Maybe don't have a background suggesting it is a crater but rather have some fading into endless misty distance. and maybe have some real tentacely monster come out of one of the crater cysts.

Mordalles: This is very cool looking and very detailed already but differently detailed than miguels so you are not doing so much redundant work when coloring and setting lighting. I really don't know what to criticize here or what to say except, rock on!

Cerno: The left side of the dragonwing looks a bit short and unthreatening compared to the other side. The legs seem to have one limb too much, except this is the unnatural monstery look you are going for, then flesh it out and make it look really disturbing ;) I don't quite know what the circle in the topleft will become but I like beeing surprised... sometimes.

Andail: I love scifi so this setting already has me, cool perspective. Maybe some more houses and other cars withs lights on and traffic lights will be needed to give the scene more depth but this is just a sketch by now.

selmiak: great that you finally came around to write something about every piece, now kick your own ass and continue!

SookieSock: Great Shadow of the colossus meets lord of the rings vibe there, I just don't see this monster running or attacking with these feet, but they sure are fitting for the treemonster. the mountain background made me think that the scene sure would look awesome in a snowstorm.

Snarky: The perspective and the weird grin gives a nice creepy mood. Dunno if I would be more frightened to see this at nighttime with the fullmoon in his back or at noon fully lit from the sun on the back and casting a huge shadow.

Kasander: Really cool, like I said in the first thread already, just some minor lighting issues.

Ben: it's really small to tell much, but the atmosphere seems alright, don't get it to warm and comfy though, this is a spikey monster...


wohah, quite some entries here, now I can finally read other's opininons on others and see if my estimates and advices are somehow related. And draw some more. Or over the weekend...

FEEDBACK

@SookieSock
I really love your idea. It has a kind of morbid, fantasy aesthetic that really speaks to me. I also like your sweet monster design.

The only thing that's really taking me out of the piece right now is the horse. It's pretty nicely drawn, but the pose is unconvincing to me, and doesn't seem like something a horse would do in this situation. From what I've noticed about horses in general, I'm not sure one would jump over an object in motion. I think it would really benefit the picture to have the horse either galloping away from the monster or rearing up on its back legs in fear. That being said, I'm excited to see how your piece evolves over the coming weeks. I think you really have something here.


@Snarky
Of all the monster pictures, I think yours freaks me out the most. The thing I absolutely love about your piece is the camera angle (as the monster would be seen by a child or toddler). So great! :-D
As far as critiques go, I think I want to wait until you've fleshed out the piece more. Definitely looking forward to seeing where you take this though.


@Kasander
You are a shading master. That's some freaky-ass @#$% you've got there. I've really really enjoyed watching your piece evolve over the past week.

To be honest, I don't think I really have any constructive criticism for you. Maybe the gritty texture on the face and raised arm is a little distracting, but I think all this will change once you add color. I'll hold back until you're a little further into the piece. :)


@ThreeOhFour
Absolutely LOVE your new thumbnail. Monster pose, color, A+! I love the blue/red color combo, and I'm really glad you changed the monster pose too. As someone else mentioned, it did look a little like someone in a monster suit.

I think if I were put on the spot to give you criticism though, it would be the dimensions of the image itself. Not too crazy about the square. It just feels a little weird to me, like part of the image was cut off.




RESPONSES TO FEEDBACK

@cat
Thanks for your thoughts. I understand what you're saying about the "pillow shading" thing, but if your light source is directly on a person/thing, wouldn't it appear that way to some degree? Here's kind of an example of what I'm talking about, although I didn't use this as a reference:

(http://i.imgur.com/vTIDUhT.jpg)

I will admit though that the way I have it now, the shading is too uniform without variation to be realistic, so I'll be fixing that more in the next draft. I also think it will look a lot less pillow-shading-ish once I've added texture and color variation to him. (Right now, I have a black-and-white shading layer on "multiply" above the monster's color layer.)

As for the obese thing, yeah, I agree. I think I'll change that too. While I was shading, it just kind of turned out that way, but I think I want to make him a tad more slimmer and muscular. Thanks again for your critique! It's definitely made me more mindful about the piece. I hope you'll chime in again once I get a little further with the picture. :)


@Kasander
Thanks for your thoughtful critique! Good stuff! I did notice that thing with the arms in my earlier sketches. Hopefully I've corrected that in my later drafts. Let me know if you still think it's an issue. I do like your idea though, I may revise the hands even further. I also like your idea of the monster leaning forward. I'm not sure I'll make the change, but I'll definitely keep it in mind. :)


@nihilyst
Thanks! I like the first color study too. I'll be incorporating more of the freckles and scaly textures later in my draft.


@ThreeOhFour
Thank you!!! I haven't really fleshed out the background yet, but you definitely have some good points/thoughts that I'll keep in mind when I do.


@selmiak
Interesting idea, selmiak. The reason I have the lighting coming from the front is because I wanted to try having the fortune teller's shadow fall on the table to give the fortune teller more presence (based on the feedback Misj' gave me). I might try out your idea too though, just to see what it looks like. Thanks!

Thanks to everyone for their invaluable support and tips.
I had to organize it all and even the condensed version now fills two pages.

So first I tried to improve the wings. The initial imbalance was inherited from the reference image of a bat with its wings pretty much in the same pose, but I agree that this has to change.

Next I tried to do some thumbnails, very useful technique, by the way. Thanks loominous!

(http://i39.tinypic.com/beyl2d.png)

I like the general feel of them quite a lot

Next I tried to sketch a pose that incorporates some of the advice I got, mostly from Kasander and waheela
I moved the wizard to the lower edge of the screen and made the dragon more prominent. The legs, arms horns and snout now all point towards the wizard. I tried to hint at a triangle here. ;)

Unfortunately I was not quite able to catch the presence of dragon from the thumbnails, maybe this stage needs another iteration.

(http://i41.tinypic.com/35m067o.jpg)

Edit: Maybe a little more like this, now the wings underline the arrow-shape more and it becomes a little more dynamic:

(http://i43.tinypic.com/34pgzef.png)

@waheela: Thanks a lot for the eagle images, nice finds. I have some trouble adapting the pose since an eagle has no arms, while the dragon does. But I tried to get the wings somewhat similar and I plan to heavily reference the talons.

@loominous & Kasander: Unfortunately I won't have the time to redo the whole dragon, so I won't be going for the 3/4 perspective since I fear that I might not make it in the end. Really sorry, especially after the great mock-up, Kasander  :cry:

To every other helpful soul out there: You are not forgotten. All advice has been compiled into a neat list and will be commented on in due time ;)

Thank you Loominous :)
    (http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/workshop_13-05-05_monster/stage_II_thumbnails_compilation_a01.jpg)

    Miguel:
I think you might have worked too much adding texture and detail to your figure before putting him in a context. It may prove hard to make him fit in the picture retroactively. Still great job on the skin texture.
    Misj:
Cool idea, and the composition is looking promising. I wonder how well the pose will work when it comes to interacting with the other figures; right now it looks a bit stiff, almost like a statue.
    dactylopus:
Dramatic composition, very cartoonesque. It will be interesting to see the full background.
    cat:
I see you have started colouring the piece now, and while it is a dramatic perspective, I'm not sure how monster-like this creature will be. At the moment it looks like a baracuda. The problem with not including a human figure in the scene is that you lose the proportions a bit. This could basically be an inch-long kelp eating fish for all we know.

    loominous:
As always great lighting and masterful drawing. At the moment I'm not getting any monster-vibes at all - he's looking more like a stern uncle, just about to tell his nosy nephew to get the heck out of the library - but that might change.

    ProgZmax:
Hm, this is a tough scene. Lots of things going on, lots of angles and perspectives to keep track of. This might be a big darling for you to kill, but I would consider scrapping the foreground sniper, and bring the worshipers closer. I think just having them and the monster interact is enough action for one picture. But if you manage to pull it off it would be really cool.

    waheela:
This one is very original, and the most comical of the bunch. When the monster is centred like this, with very little else going on, it's important to make it interesting to look at. Right now it's a bit too plain dinosaur. This is basically a portrait - work more on an original monster design!

    nihilyst:
Tons of Giger-vibes here. Which is a good thing. Not much else to say atm :)

    mordalles: (mind the spelling, Loomie :) )
Easily one of the most promising illustrations so far. Great monster, lots of personality, both scary and full of character.

    Cerno:
Hm, this monster hasn't found a natural pose yet. There's something with his wings and posture not really adding up. I would experiment more with his pose before moving on to shading and texturing.

    selmiak:
Not scary, but a nice comical touch.

    SookieSock:
Good start, but I think you have to rearrange some elements in this picture. Both the monster and the horse archer are competing for the foremost percent of the picture. They're also basically - as far as I can see - turned the same way. Maybe move something back, into the picture, just to give them more room. Really nice colours so far.

    Snarky:
Hard to say what you can make of this at this point. As a b/w drawing it's really nice, but the composition and perspective, along with his featureless face, may prove hard to develop much further. Still full of personality, and quite scary, I should say.

    Kasander:
Scary indeed, but I'm missing something. This is too much Magic the gathering-portrait. I would like something more to look at.

    TheeOhFour:
I think you've stressed a bit so far, so I'm really looking forward to seeing what you can come up with given a bit more time.


Alright, here's my latest update.
Someone adviced me to go back to the earlier, less defined monster, so I did that. I even made it more featureless. The only thing I'm worrying about now is that this illustration won't be so much about monster design, but hey :) Also went back to a more straight perspective, and started working a bit on the people on the bike. They will take most of the remaining time to finish.

(http://www.esseb.com/andail/graphics/floating5.png)

Wow, lots of really kind feedback! I considered my entry an initial concept sketch (that's what the Week 1 deliverable was supposed to be, right?) to be iterated on, modified and developed further. My scribbles aren't really a "style" so much as an inability to get anything right with a single stroke; I was certainly envisioning shading, texture, color... like in a proper picture. Not sure I'll have time to work on it this week, though.

Let's see if I have anything useful to say to you all:

miguel: Cool monster design! It being a prisoner, I think you could push the pathos more, really impart a sense of suffering. Perhaps by adjusting the pose a bit to make it look more defeated. Maybe sores, scars... Also, make sure to actually shackle it to that chain!

misj': You've moved quite far from your initial references, though it still reflects the Greek mythology angle well. I guess I'm not entirely clear on how you see this monster, but your rendering is clearly very professional.

dactylopus: Yup, I think the sketch clearly captures the kind of monster you were going for. I wonder if its scale isn't a little too exaggerated for this type of design, though (I would expect a monster like this to be no more than two-three times the height of a person), and I'd like to see some more detail on the tunnel (particularly since your reference images for that were so good!).

cat: Love how this is looking, it really feels very underwatery. In order to set your monster design apart, I think you could experiment with interesting color patterns on the skin.

loominous: It's a great mood piece that sets the "dusty library" atmosphere I think you were going for, and I can see it as concept art for lighting a movie scene, for example. The monstrousness seems to be mainly in the design of the head, but I can't really make out the features properly from this sketch. Look forward to getting a better look once it's cleaned up!

ProgZmax: The drawing sets a credible B-movie, pulp-y scene, complete with man-in-rubber-suit monster. However, I think the composition is not entirely effective: having the monster and shooter aligned like that doesn't really create a sense of opposition or danger, and I don't think the meaning of the situation really "reads." Possibly too late at this point, but I think you would benefit from experimenting with some other layouts.

waheela: Love the specificity of what you're going for here! And the sketch depicts the literal description perfectly well. But it strikes me as a bit… mundane, maybe? Like this guy whose eyes we're looking out of just snapped a photo with his iPhone (or Google Glass, I guess, since he's not using his hands), you know? Perhaps that's the mood you intended, but from the excerpt that's not the atmosphere I imagined. I would recommend thinking about how you could use mood lighting (cf. loominous) to emphasize the strangeness/sadness/menace/whatever of the scene. Also, I think you can do more with the cemetery than the sketchy tombstones you put in some of the thumbnail sketches. In my mind's eye I pictured something more grandly dilapidated, like the ruins of a Greek temple (but with mausoleums etc.) .

nihilyst: I think your monster idea is great! One of my favorites. I'm not quite so sure about the hopeless stretching after a boat it can't reach. It almost seems to make it irrelevant. Whether the monster is threatening or threatened, I think it would be more interesting to see it directly interact (or with the potential to interact) with someone/something, and it would help the viewer understand what kind of monster this is.

Mordalles: Wow, haven't seen you around in a long time! Your monster design is truly disgusting (seems more like a giant flea than a rabbit or turtle to me, but that hardly matters!), and I can easily see it as a concept for a comic, movie or game. Just keep going!

Cerno: I think you generally have a nice, classic dragon design, but I think you should work a bit more on the pose and anatomy. Having all the limbs in front of the body like that looks a bit ungainly, and it doesn't create any clear lines to provide a sense of movement. To underscore the mammalian nature of the monster, maybe make the face even more bull-like? Don't worry about lighting and scales and all that until you've got the shape of the monster more firmly locked down.

Andail: I really liked the ugly flying shrimp snake in the Week 1 final sketch, so I'm sorry that you've fogged it all up in your latest edit. Maybe you could have more than one, a closer one where we see at least the head somewhat clearly, and others in the foggy distance?

Selmiak: Cool, funny design. I can see this monster in e.g. a game like Space Quest. The way the tail is coiled, it sort of looks like multiple legs hanging off to the side. In fact, you might consider whether you want to incorporate that.

SookieSock: Wow, nice drawing! As for the monster design, the lack of a head is the most distinctive feature. A drawback with that is that you lose a lot of expressiveness, and to make it recognizable you're forced to stick to a very humanoid layout. I don't know if you went through a lot of other options, but have you considered maybe something with a head and not the standard two-arms/two-legs layout?

Kasander: Uaaagh! Nightmare fodder right there! Looking excellent.

ThreeOhFour: I really like your latest sketch, which gets away a bit from the "Oogaboogabooga" man-in-rubber-suit look. As usual you're selecting cool lightsources. Though my favorite of your sketches is still the Shai-Hulud thing you started out with!

Oh god, in the time it's taken to write this, there's been lots of more feedback (most of which I haven't read), lots of people have updated their sketches, and so some of my comments are redundant or not even applicable any more. Well, I'm not changing them now; I'm sure by the time I'd be done they would be out of date again. Good work, everybody!

Last update for today.

I played around a bit with talons:

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2psgfwj.png)

Also I tried to apply the pose I sketched earlier.
Somehow I get the feeling that every time I go from abstract to concrete the picture loses a lot of personality :cry:

Anyway, I know this is far from perfect, but I think I'll have to start thinking about lighting and colors, since I'm running out of time for the sketch phase...

(http://i44.tinypic.com/9r28ed.png)

First of all: everyone, thanks a lot for the comments and feedback! :)

For last couple of days I had no time to work on my monster. And it seems I'm going to be offline for the whole weekend, and since my tablet is a monster itself, digital painting is out of question ;(  I guess I won't be posting anything new until Monday or so :/ Maybe I'll do some proper analog painting for a change, if I have time - even a simple watercolor doodle can sometimes make a cool, usable texture. Anyway, keep up the good work, guys and gals!



SOME LATE FEEDBACK:

@ ThreeOhFour

I like the spikes (I have very fond memories of Doom, too ;)). I'd even suggest adding more of them (perhaps little ones?), to make the monster look even more dangerous.

There's one spike that doesn't convince me, though: the one in monster's jaw. I just can't imagine Mr Spikey sitting on his throne and having a nap: this spike would hurt his chest! I'd suggest bending it outwards so it could be more practical for a tired, hard-working monster (which I believe he is). 

I also like the overall ambience, the red pool beneath monster's feet (I wonder what's in it) . Cool. Carry on! :)

@ Cerno

I know you've decided to abandon 3/4 due to lack of time, but I'll post this anyway.

(http://i.imgur.com/y0B4lYd.jpg)

It's the quick sketch I did yesterday trying to simplify your monster (the old version of it ;)) to make it easier to draw. Helpful or not, I just didn't want it go to waste ;) Have fun and be patient to your monster! It'll pay off ;)

@ waheela

Fortune-teller's hands are closer on your last sketches, so the distance is not an issue anymore. Still you could make them bigger, they look realy tiny atm. No matter how big the fortune teller's hands would be, your monster will appear dominant anyway - since it's occupying most of the picture.

IMO, you shouldn't worry too much about the cemetary atm, at least not until you have the monster and the fortune teller pretty much 'nailed'. They are like two starring actors of your composition and the cemetery is having 'only' a supporting role. At least that's the way I see it.

One more thing: if you're fully convinced about placing your scene at the cemetery (which is an unusual place to have a tarot reading - but I like this idea anyway), you could have them dealing cards on someone's gravestone.

You could also consider having monster in the centre, so the cemetery would be visible on both of its sides. Yeah, I know that's quite a lot of things to consider;)

Well, that's all for now. Good luck and have fun! :)

Thanks to all of you who took your time to comment on Nitro, the monster I created. To answer all of your comments back would be nice but at the same time pretty boring to viewers.
As you will see on my next update, I didn't take most of your advices. I continued to do stuff on Nitro who, very patiently didn't move an inch.

17 May 2013 - Update

Step 10 - Hair brushed and parted. Typical me, typical me. Typical me.

(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm54/miguel20000/step10_8x6_zps61e26e47.png)

Edit: Photobucket is acting stupid on me, maybe tomorrow...
Finally got photobucket to work, sorry about that.

Okay, so I decided to start applying some basic colors today before going back and pushing shadows and highlights some more.  I also redrew the hero entirely at a higher vantage with him crouched behind some rocks and preparing to fire.  I spent most of my time playing around with colors for the 'evil' clouds and the monster so I didn't get very far with the cliff or the water.  I'm liking how it is turning out, though.

(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/deadlydepths2_zpsf1a35160.png)

Away on a trip, so I can't really work on my piece til sunday, but I agree about the lack of monstrousness vibe from my character. I'll be taking it further, but not that much, since I'm not into scary/freakish stuff, and I suspect I may be failing the topic to at least a degree. But with details I think it could turn out to be a cool piece, which is what I care about.


Andail:
I'm liking the fleshing out of the scene. Feels kinda flat/uninteresting on a macro level though, as if stuck between atmospheric n punchy, and I'd experiment with both routes, seeing what works best.

On a non technical level, I am kinda bothered by the woman with the gun, and the whole current arrangement to a degree. Basically if you were to look at the woman only, you'd think they were followed closely by a car or something else that this peashooter of hers could actually affect, instead of this mountain sized creature which doesn't really seem that interested in them.

Perhaps make the monster look straight at them, or as if almost scanning them with its eyes, and make her just hold on to the guy while looking back. Guess another idea would be to make the weapon seem powerful enough to affect it, either by making it seem technologically advanced or magical.

Prog:

Think the lighthouse may be superfluous at this point, perhaps exchange it for a moon, for backlight, a la 304.
On a larger scale, I'd look for opportunities to add big bright blobs, to make it exciting on a macro level, the easiest would be in the sky, and could make the monster pop better.

Progz: I love the colours and mood, but I thing you have too many events going on, it gets a bit distracting. I read the previous post about a lighthouse and actually searched your piece for it, even if its pretty obvious where it is now... Would it be a stupid advice of me if I say that you need more references for sizes but less events?
Taking a closer look, I think that the lighthouse beam on the water can work well and make some cool effect. Add a lamp next to the shooter so that we understand why he is being lit? The distance from the pillar fire and the shooter looks huge...
You picked the most difficult composition of all of us, in my opinion. I think it would be much easier for you if you'd change the angle of the pillar cliff.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm54/miguel20000/progz_sketch_zps23bf21e7.png)


Andail: cool stuff here! A chase on a motorbike with lady shooting at monsters! Can't beat that! My advice, get a new monster, same type of course but closer to the action, really chasing them.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm54/miguel20000/andail_sketch_zps6d14c9b4.png)

Ben: you're monster is starting to glow in a daze of colourful glory! That moon looks superb.

I've been very busy this week, and will get even more so this weekend...so I really hope that I can find the time to work on the piece on Monday. But first a lengthy intermission (that took a lot of time that I should have spend on something else).

(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa412/misj1270/Composition_1_zpsae5df5e0.png)
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa412/misj1270/Composition_2_zps5ae35624.png)
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa412/misj1270/Composition_3_zps4998db86.png)

@ Misj'

It's great that you took the time to draw these ancient principles mate :)

The thing with the golden ratio is, it's mainly used to show perfect proportions. Flow, as you said. Balance, harmonies, etc. Mostly in architecture, also in classical (ancient) sculpture (it can also be  observe in the nature a lot). That's where it's used.

But the illustration - especially a film-like, live-action one like yours -  is a bit different animal. Sure it can show balance, and the composition could be graceful and elegant.

But the theme of your ilustration is the confrontation (monster vs humans), not a still nature or some other peaceful scene. The golden rule surely can be applied to it, but imo it doesn't serve you that well.

If you were to go for the rule of the thirds' though, it's really easy to apply (no need to get rid of the monks!). Just rotate the monster a bit, so she appears to be facing them. Bend her, twist her - and perhaps you'll get some more 'monstrosity' in the process from her;)  Or move the monks to the right and make the pillar next to them thinner.

Anyway, it's all up to you. I like the overall mood of the piece, and it's so well executed, but just it's a bit too 'balanced' for a 'fighting monster' scene! :) Cheers and have fun with you piece! :)

Tiny update.  Focused mainly on the clouds (I'm pretty happy with how they turned out) and added some more visibility to the light house and land masses on the horizon.  Still need to start tackling the water and other stuff.  Also I re-added the monsters' beak because I wasn't quite happy with it the way it was.

(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/deadlydepthsclouds_zps1b84b54c.png)

Miguel:  Is the light house easier to see now?  I'm still not finished with it.

Ok, new update as of May 17th
[imgzoom]http://esseb.com/andail/graphics/floating6.png[/imgzoom]
I really wish I had picked some photo references early on for the biker rider, because now he's looking pretty generic. Ah well.
I changed the woman so that she's no longer aiming at the monster, because that was, as Loominous pointed out, looking a bit futile, if not silly. Now she's just posing with a really big gun, I think. All this is a bit retro-cheesy, but I kind of like it :) The vehicle looks odd because it was resized and hasn't been refined since. Will work on it later (not much of a motor person...)
Added a sun in the background, and plenty of highlights on the bike riders to make them stand out better. There's still too much grey areas, which gives the picture a certain dullness, so I will either add more colours or smear out everything to give the picture some kind of motion blur effect

@ProgZmax: maybe you should paint the reflection of the light from the lighthouse in a different angle as it now is in line with the rifle and my first though was smoke from the gun :P
Except this inline stuff is planned, reading about all the golden ratios and magic thirds and stuff, but now seems like a time to change this painlessly.

Progz: I really have troubles with the perspective and overall lines pointing everywhere. The one aiming from gun barrel to lighthouse (I'm not sure what that is exactly?), the lighthouse beam, and then the electrical bolts coming from the wizard dude. Overall it's a pretty dark piece and not much for back lighting.

I tried to add a bright edge on the horizon, changed that really wonky perspective on the cliff (and the shooters angle, which is still off - but I got lazy). I tried to add a strong edge lighting on the monster to really define his shape. Some fog separating the mountains and water. I mostly just played around giving me the excuse to dust off my tablet (literally, it was VERY dusty!).

(http://www.bryvis.com/entertainment/other/agsf/progzmonster.png)
(Quick paint over edit of Progz's image)

Every good story* needs some kind of a villain...and it's clearly not going to be my monster (let's face it, just because you're born a monster doesn't mean you're evil). So I started to do some rough sketches on my elder monk, because I think that by now it is obvious that he was going to be the antagonist (the beast to my monster, so to speak).

(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa412/misj1270/Villain_zps08079610.png)

Also, I wanted to play around with some (oily) brushes that I have absolutely/obviously no experience with.



* even the love-story this is turning into (this scene actually depicts the first time the future lovers meet...which explains the role the guy hiding behind the pillar will have later on in the story). Yeah I know it's not scary and monsterish...but I have no control over where the characters take me.

Misj, sounds like a whole Frankenstein thing by the way you explain it. Sure, your monster isn't scary but, by definition - it is a 'monster'. It looks to me like she (I presume it is a she) is attacking these arrogant humans because they interfere with her lair - or maybe she has a baby she is protecting?

Either way, It's hard to find a 'bad guy' here, but is there really need for one? Who defines a 'monster' anyway? It's a very nice piece of art :)

You guys have all done a really cool (good) job and I look forward to see where this is going.

Edit: As far as criticism goes:

Andail - when you posted your sketch on 13 May - the monster seemed to have a more organic expression. I can remember being mostly impressed by this, it just looked so real. I fear you might have lost that a little.

Kasander - Your monster is amazing but I think you lost detail around the eyes lately - in order to create a 'crazed' and feral monster, I am sure you will agree the eyes are key.

Nice work.

Andail: Somehow you slipped through my comments in my big comments post, so fortunately I found something to say now ;)
First of all, awesome lighting and mood of the scene. The empty streets make this appear like a struggle between the monster and the two people on the bike who seem to be humanity's only hope. Or even both of them are among the last survivors of the monster's attack on the city. Excellent.
For critique, I, too, liked the 1st week version of the monster better. It was more threatening and I really dig the insect look of it. I also liked the version where the woman was turning around to the monster. I understand that you don't want her to aim at it, but if you turned her around that would make the scene a lot more dynamic and would establish a connection between monster and humans, maybe like they narrowly escaped the monster's destruction of their city.

Kasander: Awesome input, thanks a lot! Now I feel really bad for not trying the 3/4 perspective. :~(. I'll see whether I can fit it in somewhere this weekend.
I think I somewhat tried to go into that direction: The legs in the back stretch out further than the ones in front and the head is slightly turned. So maybe I just didn't manage to turn them quite enough. Also, the monster appears to be on the same depth level as the wizard, while it should be more in the background, as the cliff is pointing slightly into the image. I think the 3/4 perspective would achieve that, but I am not sure if I can pull it off.
Anyway, drawing these kind of perspectives is quite a challenge for beginner me, although I guess I'd feel pretty confident drawing a two-point perspective image of cuboids. ;)

QuoteMiguel:  Is the light house easier to see now?  I'm still not finished with it.

Progz, yup. Somehow the lighthouse is the last thing I do notice in your picture. Maybe it's me. But the angle on the cliff is what you should really change.

Thanks for the feedback, Snarky, Kasander, and Andail!

Just for some clarification, in case people weren't aware, my pic is based off this story:

LISTEN HERE. (http://www.drabblecast.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Drabblecast-155-The-Second-Conquest-of-Earth.mp3)
Skip to about the 1/5 mark to listen to the story if you're interested.

Here's an update of my progress...
(Original post updated.) (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48220.msg636454495#msg636454495)

(http://i.imgur.com/n1FzxF5.png)

Something about that clenched hand doesn't look right to me. Maybe it's the coloring? Any thoughts, guys?

QuoteSomething about that clenched hand doesn't look right to me. Maybe it's the coloring? Any thoughts, guys?

The hands are too puny for the character - if he was to throw a punch with those hands? Think about it. With those hands he looks like the geek in his tribe. As a wise man once said : "Look at these hands, these are hard working hands".

Especially since he looks like he just chowed down on someone! The colours are very nice and it's all beginning to bring the imagery to life.

Hmmm, yeah, I could make the monster's hands bigger, but I was referring to the clenched human hand. :P

The clenched human hand looks great! You just have to round it more and be sure not to cut off the outline like you have around the surrounding thumb area - it looks jagged  :-*

Update 11, 18 May 2013

[imgzoom]http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm54/miguel20000/step10_8x6_zps0d8ab7c7.png[/imgzoom]

Critique please!

Week 2 Step 2
im still playing/fighting :angry: around with values and forms, and possible backdrops. some sort of temples in the background, with man made pillars in the tunnel. still very much loosely painted monster with details lacking. at the moment its mostly shadows, light still has to be added. light is coming from top right corner, kinda behind the monster. that shell is giving me nightmares.  :-X
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercocept7.png)

Week 2 Step 3

Okay, finally I would like to take a round trip commenting on all the awesome and helpful comments, before moving on to lighting and color.
Phew, it's become quite a lot. Thanks again to everyone.

waheela

Quote
the wings look a little off to me. One is outstretched and one appears to be bent. I know the eagles below have nothing to do with your dragon per se, but I think they're good references in the way that you get an idea of what a winged animal looks like before landing or "pouncing" on something.

I redid the wings completely. Also thanks to your very helpful references, I was able to improve the claws. Actually gave him four while I was at it. ;)

Quote
Shrink the wizard and plateau to a smaller size and move them down a bit. I think this will make the dragon look more gigantic and threatening. By moving the plateau down a little too, you will have more space to stretch out the legs and open the talons a bit more.

I did what you suggested, if only a little. By moving the dragon into the corner a bit and increasing its size, the size difference between the protagonists feels better now.

loominous

Quote
Atm I think the biggest thing to experiment with is the angle of the whole scene, making it less side view and flat and more 3/4 and with depth.

I see how that is a problem, but at my current level I just can't pull it off. Played around with some 3/4 sketches last night, but failed when I tried to make the arms reach towards the screen as would be required by such a pose. I think I need some more training with geometric shapes before I feel confident enough to attempt such a pose in 3/4. Thanks a lot, I can picture in my mind how your suggestion would greatly improve the scene.

Quote
While doing so, you could try pushing the values more, making things close the darkest, and the things furthest away brighter with very little contrast. Lastly, I'd try to achieve a nice focal point in the image, using values/lighting, where you choose a spot which you think is the most important/interesting, and making sure if pops out.

That was immensely helpful advice and I tried that in my next step, possibly not strong enough tough. The focal point would naturally be the dragon, as the wizard is much too small. Could you please give me a follow-up comment on your lighting suggestion to see whether this goes in the right direction?

dactylopus

Quote
I see is that the bottom claws are somewhat unreadable.  I would definitely take a look at those eagle pictures

I agree. I changed them, thanks for the advice.

SookieSock

Quote
What is the wizard doing? Is he is welcoming the dragon as a servant or is he fighting it? At this stage It could go either way. Also the background itself ends in a line with a very flat ‘horizon'. That's ok if we are in a cavern bit if this is outside it needs to extend off in to the distance.

By now I want the wizard to be on a quest to actually tame a dragon, which is obviously something very brave/stupid and could be the last thing he does. I wonder whether I will be able to project that into the image. I also tried to improve the background. Better?

cat

Quote
I'm not too fond of the feet, though. They look like they belong to someone else. One suggestion for the next stage: Define your light source and see, where there will be shadows.

I agree that the feet sucked. Better now?
For the light source, I want the scene to be lighted from the bottom volcano with a diffuse lighting from the other volcanoes. I also want the wizard's spell to be a light source. I tried to capture that in my next step.

Mordalles

Quote
All I can think is the wings itself. I'm no expert in wings, but I would think that when something flies his two wings will stay in line together to keep balance.

I agree, that was taken from mixing the bat reference with a dragon reference and did not really work. Now I completely changed the wings.

Misj'

Quote
I think the monster itself is interesting...weird, but interesting; but I would look into his anatomy a bit. This could also help make his pose a little more threatening and dynamic. I like the wizard, and - to me at least - he steals the scene. I think his pose and the directional line towards the monster are strong, and I would build the image around that (rather than around the monster).

Thanks a lot for that idea, I think it might look awesome. Unfortunately I don't see me doing that without completely redrawing everything and I can't find the time to do that. Sorry, but I'll have to give that one a pass although I really like the idea.

Kasander

Quote
When you'll have your dragon's pose set, you could try to visually empower/amplify his 'attacking stance' by trying to give the background behind it a shape that somehow resembles a triangle pointed at the wizard (you can do that by shaping the rocks or volcanos or... I'll just leave it to you). Pointed shapes in composition, when facing each other, create a feeling of tension. Well, that's something to consider for later.

That's immensely helpful advice, thank you. I tried to give the dragon a somewhat triangular shape, but somehow I feel that it's not strong enough.

Quote
Apart from boosting the dynamic/expression of the painting, the 'triangle versus triangle' or the 'triangle versus circle' could become a sort of archetypical clash, for example like between the fire-breathing-dragon and water-elemental-mage. It's just one of the possibilities. From my experience I know that adding some meaning (even if it's a kind of coloristic meaning) makes one's work more powerful. So that's another thing for you to consider.

See my next step, the whole scene is very fire-oriented, which is natural since the wizard is entering the dragon's domain. While I don't envision the wizard to conjure up a water spell, the spell's color reflects the contrast between the two. Does that make sense?

Quote
One more thing to consider: As it is with miguel's monster, your dragon's upper limbs seems to me to be 'too human'. I think you could try to make them more reptile-like. Try looking for photographic references of dinosaurs, crocodiles, or perhaps some other animal that somehow resembles a dragon in this aspect and could lend your monster a pair of hands

I agree, the hands were a weak point. Now I went the easy route and just copied the feet. That works for me, but might be a bit too boring.

ThreeOhFour

Quote
I like how much action your scene has, but I think your mountains are all very low and flat. Some further height variation in that background would be lovely!

I agree. Better? I'll try to use values to make them appear at different distances from the viewer.

Selmiak

QuoteThe left side of the dragon wing looks a bit short and unthreatening compared to the other side. The legs seem to have one limb too much, except this is the unnatural monstery look you are going for, then flesh it out and make it look really disturbing  I don't quite know what the circle in the topleft will become but I like beeing surprised... sometimes.

I agree on the wings and changed them, thanks. The legs are supposed to look like that, I wanted to do double joints on purpose, maybe I can improve on them though. What about the last sketch, better? The thing in the top left was supposed to be a sun, which my wife commented looked like in a child's drawing. Since I moved the dragon there, the sun had to go. Good riddance, stupid sun. ;)

Andail

Quote
Hm, this monster hasn't found a natural pose yet. There's something with his wings and posture not really adding up. I would experiment more with his pose before moving on to shading and texturing.

Are you referring to my end of week 1 sketch or the more recent one? I hope the current one is better in that regard since I decided to keep the pose as it is (except minor tweaks)

Snarky

Quote
Having all the limbs in front of the body like that looks a bit ungainly, and it doesn't create any clear lines to provide a sense of movement. To underscore the mammalian nature of the monster, maybe make the face even more bull-like?

Same question as to Andail ;)
I hope I can get a sense of movement through details, although that might be too late ;)
I was thinking about changing some details on the head, let's see whether I can manage to do that when I start on the details.

Week 2 Step 3

So I tried to get a feel about lighting and colors with a very rough sketch. It might have been a good idea to do lighting and color separately though.

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2zyy713.png)

After Kasander's hint about adding some meaning through colors I drew the whole scene in reds, lighted from below and colored the wizard's spell in blues to underline his foreignness in this envionment. Just realized that the mountains would need different shades of grey to give them a better impression of depth.

After loominous's hints about contrast, I scaled down the image to thumbnail size:

(http://i43.tinypic.com/9jnpky.png)

I can see that the dragon takes the focus as it should but the smoke has too much contrast and competes too much. My decreasing the contrast here, I hope to get the background volcanoes to actually feel like a background, the same goes for the mountain range. Also the central volcano at the bottom as well as the wizard's cliff is almost invisible. This has to change.

waheela: Love the bloody snout, adds a lot of believability to the scene.

Awesome human hand by the way. I think the problem with it might be that its pose is quite uncomfortable. Try to hold your hand like this, it should strain the tendons in the back. If you can, maybe try to get the wrist straight instead of bent?

Also I fear that Lord Jagged still looks a bit pot-bellied. No idea what I'm talking about, but shouldn't his lower belly (where it is close to the table) be less in the shadows? What casts that shadow? It can't be the table if the light is coming from behind the protagonist's head, so I think it might enforce the impression that a large belly casts it. Does that make any sense?

I haven't had much time to work on my monster this week, but I will get an update done.

I've been looking at all of the input, and you guys have some really good ideas.

Also, I really like where some of you are going with this.  I think everyone has improved their pieces this week, from what I've seen.  I'll provide more insight later, but for now:

Cerno: I like where this is going.  You've got a good handle on the color, I really like the choices you've made.  The blue contrasts nicely with the reds.  Perhaps using more reds in the smoke would help.

Mordalles: I can see where you're having trouble on the shell.  It doesn't look like it matches with the light source.  It looks like it is lit from the side instead.  Adjusting the angle of the shading might help.

Miguel: I really like the new setting you've got him in.  The scene seems to make more sense and feel more natural now.

waheela: The shading on the gut looks a little pillowy, but he is looking a lot better.

Misj': I'm looking forward to seeing that villain in the scene, and I hope that you'll be experimenting more with those brushes.  It looks rather nice.

Again, I'll give some more feedback later when I have the time.

Been too long since I touched this, but made some time to work on it tonight. His right arm will have to be completely repainted, I really dislike how it looks, otherwise I'm steadily making progress.

Half size:

(http://i.imgur.com/Eja80hT.jpg)

That looks great, ben304! love the ribcage and mouth areas. and the lighting!

did a bit more experimenting  with my monster and background, and started with some of the details on the face.
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercocept8.png)

wow, extremely cool shell and creepy front feet. But maybe try to shorten the lower torso to make the long neck pop out more. will post a wip later...

Sorry guys, I really haven't had too much time to draw this last week, and neither will I tomorrow. So even though I got to some designing and sketching, I have to throw in the towel. I will try to keep making some contributions to these monster-threads, but the piece itself will stay unfinished (at least for now).

It's definitely been fun, and I love to see as many end-results as possible, but I suddenly just have too much on my plate (which I wasn't really expecting two weeks ago).

Cheers for all the ideas and feedback.

Water dragon, week 2, step 2 - Color
Back to initial post (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48220.msg636454485#msg636454485)

I started coloring the basic sketch.

(http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/basic_colored.jpg)
I made a deep, dark mouth as suggested by SookieSock. I also tried to use the foreground kelp to frame it as suggested by ThreeOhFour.

Before I start shading the dragon I want to get the anatomy right. I'm not fully satisfied with the arms and legs yet.
I'm also not sure if I should add more details to the kelp or leave it just loosely defined.

Any critics and comments are welcome!

Now some more comments on posted pics:
Andail Good change in the composition, I now get a much more hunted feeling.
ProgZmax I really like Ryan Timothy's paint over. I think without the distracting lines from the lighthouse the scene is much easier to understand.
miguel I can't really put my finger on it, but the monster doesn't seem to be part of it's environment.
Cerno Ah, now we are going somewhere! The wings will probably also be lit from below.
Mordalles I think the destroyed city theme works much better than the cave background. Also great enhancements on the shell, it starts to get really creepy now.
waheela I really like the texture on his shoulders. I agree with others that his hands should be bigger. I don't see anything wrong with the human hand except that it is drawn much more detailed than the rest of the picture.
Misj' That's such a pity, your drawing was looking great already! Also your analysis were very insightful, thanks for that - I hope you will finish your pic none the less and post it on the forum.

There's some amazing stuff coming out of this thread (and the thread before it). I am in awe (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Respect/bow-004.gif)

cat, if I may.
Awesome piece from the early sketches on, finally some details. Liking it a lot.
In the earlier sketches, I loved the way he trailed his arms behind him. Gave him a sleek form and underlines his movement speed, similar to a seal underwater right after a flipper stroke, see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQu4M--MRbc. Looking forward to how this will turn out.

(http://selmiak.bplaced.net/stuff/sk2.jpg)

A WIP. I hope to have given this beast a more dynamic, aggresive stance. The nose is just for teh lulz. Lightsource is also clear. Still unsure what to with the upper right part...
and how can I make this cave look more moist?

Thanks mordy, loving yours too (still!) Awesome shell idea :3

Been working on mine some more:

(http://i.imgur.com/45ceapw.jpg)

Added genitals, fixed the right arm somewhat, added background stuff, etc. Still much work to be done.

Selmiak, if you google "wet rocks" you'll notice they reflect a lot of light, and anything else around in the environment. Moisture has the effect of making dry things darker, and adding a reflective sheen onto the surface. Be really bold with your highlights, and they should start to look more wet.

@Cerno: Great idea with the seals, I'll have a look at it
@ThreeOhFour: Wow, amazing rendering in the chest area!

Quote from: selmiak on Sun 19/05/2013 23:53:31
and how can I make this cave look more moist?

Make one or two of those in the water to simulate drops falling from the ceiling:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UeKpPmoedmk/S9bu7nvTgxI/AAAAAAAAARk/gYB9mQFEI2o/s1600/Blue+Water+Ripples+Wp+long+goodbye.png)

I, too, won't make it this week. I hope to continue after I've come back from a short vacation.

Shame to hear about those dropping out. :(

Spent some more time working on rendering detail today, as well as working in colour and adding background detail. It's getting a bit nsfw so I'll use a link unless Andail's happy for me to post it here. Posting at full res and quality from now on, as most of my current rendering work is in fine detail:

http://i.imgur.com/HlQnRzv.png (http://i.imgur.com/HlQnRzv.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/JRBjrT9.jpg)

Still working feverishly on this.

The horse and the both subjects interaction with the ground still isn't anywhere near done but I hope it at least shows the direction I'm working towards.

Awesome progress, SookieSock!
May I suggest to also add a shadow below the horse? Currently I can't see how high above ground the hind legs are.

nihilyst: Too bad you have to drop out, too.

Come on people, get going and finish your awesome paintings! Or I will tell Tabata to post some motivational smileys  ;)

Right a little feedback

Ben

I love your monster, even though your (the monsters) genitals remind me of your baked bean balls :P.
The skin looks slimy and translucent and the dichromic lighting really sets the image off.

Mordallas

Love the detail that's coming through in yours both with the monster and the back ground, i do think that your image may be a little dark though, theres no real highlights other then the specular highlighting on its neck

Cerno

The background of your image has much more readablity now that you've added colour, and i like the idea of having two very different colours to show the fire and the magic

Have you ever used adobe kuler? it might help you find the right colours to use to really set your image off.
http://i.imgur.com/cSrhhAH.png 
(http://i.imgur.com/Mq4b1cX.png)
I did this quickly using the complimentary colours option focusing on the orange, the fire colour then the green blue could be the magic Its cool to have a play around with

https://kuler.adobe.com/#create/fromacolor

Thanks Cat

yer there's still a lot of things I need to do, the horse is actually supposed to be in a small stream but that's got lost in the soft shading. I really need to make the ground a little more readable.

Quote from: ThreeOhFour on Mon 20/05/2013 04:23:54
Added genitals

Inspired by your success, I'm now considering doing this across the board to all of my current projects.

Wow, lots of nice improvements!

Cat: It's really starting to look like an illustration now! I'm not exactly terrified by your monster - which is due to scaling issues, I believe (I still see it as a few inches long) but it doesn't matter because it's turning into a really nice painting.

Selmiak: Great! Placing it in a deep cave adds a ton of atmosphere.

Ben: Well rendered :) Nice skin textures with scary veins and all that!

Sookiesock: Awesome progress. However, I'm not too fond of the horse's movement/posture. At first I thought it was just rearing there on its spot, but now I get that it's jumping over the hand of the monster. While that makes it slightly more logical, it still looks a bit too static, too orderly, so to speak. I think it would create a better sense of speed if it was galopping by, leaning in the curve. But even if it is supposed to skip over the monster's hand, I think you need to make it look more airborne, and less standing on its hind legs, waiting to be scooped up.

OK, It's a bit late, but I did a lot of work on lighting and shadows.  Still some work to go, especially on the environment.  I'm going camping for 3 days this week, but I'm really enjoying this process.  I hope to get some work done on the weekend when I return home.

Anyways, here's the update so far:

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2zrlxrr.png)

As you can see, I decided on the flashlight rather than the torches.  I am really trying to challenge myself with this piece, and I felt it would be more difficult to try the lighting with a singular beam source rather than something more ambient.  I do intend a light source behind the monster as well, thus the incidental lighting around the edges of his body.

I need to give my monster some more texture, create a nice reflection on his eyes, and, oh yeah, put the person back into the picture.  Lots of work left.

Now a little feedback:

SookieSock:  I like where it's going, but I preferred the really dark face on the tree.

304:  The demon is looking great, absolutely horrifying.  The genitals actually increase that effect, although I think perhaps in your fondness for them you may have given them a slight bit too much of a highlight from the moon.

selmiak:  Your monster is definitely creepy, and the cave entrance is looking awesome.  I would try to add a little more light to things, it looks a little bit like an outline.

cat:  This is wonderful work.  It's looking fantastic.  I love the color choices, the dragon looks good and natural in that environment.

Mordalles:  Your idea for the shell is awesome.  You really found a great way to solve the problem you were having.

Sorry to hear about some people dropping out.  I feel like I should.  I hope we see those pieces finished some day!

Everyone's doing so well, I'm very impressed with the talent here!

QuoteI can't really put my finger on it, but the monster doesn't seem to be part of it's environment.

Thanks Cat, I've noticed it myself and am struggling to solve this problem.

Cerno: Like your choice of colours and lightning. I quickly googled flying dragons and saw some different interpretations of their legs while flying. I think your dragon legs look almost human in size and do not fit the composition well.

cat: Like National Geographic Monster Week! Looks pretty dangerous to me. The colours aren't very menacing though.

selmiak: Love the tail holding on to the rock. Maybe add on that and have your monster develop more limbs that can grab surfaces? The cave does give your composition depth.

ben: Fantastic genitals! If you keep this up I'll remove my monster fur on his private parts! Then we'll see who has the biggest balls!

sookiesock: I love your piece since the beginning. It looks fantastic and I can't wait to see it fully painted and shadowed.

dactylopus: looking better and more refined.

Now for a new update:
Step 12 - Honey, I've Shrunk the Kids

[imgzoom]http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm54/miguel20000/step10_8x6_zpsbe137fce.png[/imgzoom]

Here I continued to add highlights and shadows and some props onto the scene. I know I screwed up along the process regarding composition but I'm too lazy to go back now and will just continue to add stuff until it's a pain to watch.

Finally had some more time to work on this.  I've added some slimy scale texture to the monster as well as pushed some muscle definition, lowered the angle of the cliff a bit more as Ryan suggested, and started adding rudimentary details to the water.  The wings also have some form now and I'm seriously thinking of moving the lighthouse beam so it doesn't cross the lightning.

(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/deadlydepths5_zps25342bb2.png)

Mordalles:  Yours is really starting to show some definition and I love the design you've given the monster.  It's not something I'd want to have to confront :).

Sookiesock:  At first I wasn't sure where you were going with the tree monster design but it's really looking impressive now!  The pose confuses me somewhat as it's difficult for me to imagine your monster capable of grasping anything without an opposable thumb and I think the fingers would benefit greatly from being made to resemble gnarled branches rather than smooth, sharp bone-like claws.

Ben304:  Nice package!  Seriously though, I like the arcane setting you've put your monster in and the colors you're using.  It should be a very atmospheric image when you're done.

Miguel:  I like the monster design a lot but I can't help but feel like he's just pasted into the background rather than a part of it.  I think this has to do with you having designed the monster separately and then tried to 'fit' him into a room and his general stance and angle just don't line up as a result.  It may be a little late, but flipping the entrance horizontally would align the monster more with his perspective.  You could also tilt his right foot downward about 20 degrees and turn his right foot towards the viewer more so it looks like he's moving forward instead of side-stepping.

Andail:  The setting is really nice but something bothers me about the sudden drop off in the road.  Hopefully the monster will become less indistinct since it is the focal point of the activity.

thanks for all the feedback thus far! im trying to incorporate advice into the picture.:) :smiley:

progz, i love your monster, and im always a sucker for a picture where a lot of things are going on, and I can lose myself in it. I also like the scaly texure on the monster very much.

sookiesock, wow, looks great! great design for a monster, and the fact that it has no face make it even more terrifying.

dactylopus i think the flash light idea is great, and really puts emphasis (spelling?) on the scary face!

selmiak that cave really adds a lot to the feel of the monster. perfect setting for a slimy critter.

cat, your picture is really starting to look great. love the perspective. I imagine myself being a diver down there, with trouble coming my way.

update on my side. i'll try and focus on the statue heads on the walls next, and the left hand wall infront also. after that i'll try and fix a few little things (leg on the right for one thing), but i want to keep it relatively "concepty" so dont wanna go into detail overdrive.
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercocept9-1.png)

dactylopus: The flashlight is a nice idea in principle, but I think you need to be more careful with how the light would actually hit the monster. In particular, it's important to consider the shadows cast (e.g. by the hand, and on the face). If the light is coming from our right, the left side of his head should be in shadow, for starters. Would his mouth be illuminated like that (and is it really gray)? I doubt it! When you just apply light indiscriminately to a part of the image, it flattens the objects and it just looks like a cardboard cutout of a monster. When you take int account which bits would be in shadow as well as the reflectivity of the surfaces, the angle the light would hit at, and how it disperses with distance, you create depth and shape.

And while you may want to show the light beam, keep in mind that the brightest light is where it hits a surface, not the beam itself. Also, the reflections in his eyes should match the position of the light source (i.e. flashlight).

Week 2 Step 4 backlink (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48220.msg636454500#msg636454500)

Detail work, slow progress. Needs plenty more work, still got a lot to learn, need to research more, I guess.
Tried a different pen for the hands, which now somewhat clashes with the rest of the image.
The wizard's shadow is most likely wrong, at least the pole should not cast a shadow with the light source on top.
Thought about drawing a giant wang, but I fought against that notion... for now. ;)

(http://i39.tinypic.com/aagort.png)

@dactylopus: Adding some reds to the smoke was a really good idea as it reduced the contrast against the monster. I need to research volcanoes and clouds to start the detail work there.
@cat: Thanks for the hint. Added some red to the wings, this will hopefully also help in texturing them (black makes that quite difficult I guess). It still looks quite generic and not lit from below though.
@SookieSock: I have that website bookmarked, but thanks for the reminder. I am always baffled by how people can actually use it though, as I have quite a poor feeling for colors. For instance, I couldn't possibly think of anything to do with the palette you posted, nor would I choose any of the colors you presented if I had to. However I know that seemingly unfitting colors can be used to great effect and I am sure that most people here would know exactly what to do with your palette. I just don't have a grasp on the topic at this time. Any "colours for dummies" resources? Anyway, I'll try to play around a bit with your colors and maybe something will go click in my head ;)
@miguel: Thanks for the input, I'll try to find some more reference material if time permits.

Cerno:  Your image reminds me of one of those medieval stained-glass windows in a cathedral :).  I would almost suggest trying to make it look like a stained glass scene, just to see how it turned out.

ThreeOhFour, the details and shading you're adding is absolutely amazing. I love his translucent skin! Can't... stop... staring... at his junk though... :-[

Mordalles, agghhhhhh! Gushing love for your pic right now. Especially love what you did with the shell.

Misj, so sad you're dropping out! I'd love to see more updates from you, even if you're no longer in the running.

miguel, really nice colors. I like the warm light hitting his body. I agree with Shane's comments, but I'm not quite sure how one would go about fixing this. Quick fixable thing, the wall next to the monster's head looks like it should be in front of the monster, and putting the head in front of the wall looks a little forced. Just to see how it looks, maybe clip off a little of the head so the monster appears to be inside the hole a little more?

cat, awesome seeing your monster come to life! I love his little gill frills. Hmmm, I agree with Cerno a little when it comes to the arms. Also, if this isn't the look you're going for then ignore me, but he doesn't look very fierce or threatening right now. I think it's the eyes.

Cerno, wow, your piece is really coming along well! Great colors! ;-D
The pose definitely looks better. If it were me though, I'd probably bend the front arms back a little for a more natural position, since he'd only really need to grab with his back legs. All up to you though.



My update:

(http://i.imgur.com/hMI0UBN.png)

Added detail and shading to the cards to the hands. Based on your guys' feedback, I also made Lord Jagged's hands bigger, and I'm planning on re-shading his midsection tomorrow. As always, feedback welcome. :)

Prog:

Still think the piece has some kinks on a macro level.

(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/workshop_13-05-05_monster/pzm_a01_org_thumbnail_blurred.jpg)

This is a blurred scaled down version, which helps focusing on the big picture, and reveal the major shapes of the pic, which I usually call "blobs".

We see a few brighter regions, but they're very scattered, and placed mostly around the edges of the image.

This creates a rather dull overall impression, which details can't really fix.

One way to fix this though is by creating big blobs, preferably around the center of the image, to draw our eyes into the picture, so they'll stay there and explore, rather than on the edges, where it's easy for them to drift off.

In this edit I created a big blob in the center, and subdued the contrast around the edges, to pull the focus inwards (with the exception of the right side, as I wanted to emphasize the silhouette of the monster):

(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/workshop_13-05-05_monster/pzm_a01_thumbnail_blurred.jpg)

The subduing of uninteresting areas is as important as making interesting ones pop. You often also have to subdue areas that you like, but which have to be sacrificed for the good of the whole, which is another reason to go easy on details before everything is working out, as otherwise one is reluctant to hide these darlings.

Here's a comparison to hopefully explain what I've said better (or just confuse things, not really intuitive when I look at it):

(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/workshop_13-05-05_monster/pzm_a01_thumbnails_2c.jpg)

Anyway, so on row three I've marked the major blobs. You usually want this to be an interesting shape, and preferably somewhere in the centerish region, to keep the viewer inside the image.

On row four I've marked the spots with the highest contrast. As with the former, you usually want them somewhere around the center, or at least close to the interesting part of the image, as they're basically huge signs saying: "look here!".

On row five I've created arrows to show how the eyes are lead (just my impression), where in the edit, you have the 'gravitational well' in the center left, being the bright blob, surrounded by subdued areas, pulling the eyes and hopefully keeping them there, whereas in the original the eyes were kinda drawn away from the center, lead instead toward the corners.

To illustrate this further, I added Ben's entry, which I think work well on a macro scale:

(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/workshop_13-05-05_monster/pzm_a01_thumbnails_3c.jpg)

Water dragon, week 2, step 3 - Anatomy

I changed the eyes and arms as suggested. Lots of cursing included. I also tilted the head slightly for better consistency in perspective.

Back to initial post (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48220.msg636454485#msg636454485)

(http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/drawing_newhands.jpg)

dactylopus I agree with Snarky here, regarding the flashlight. The shadows have to be a lot harder and there has to be more difference between lit and unlit parts.

Cerno I like the progress you are making! For shading the structures on the wings: take a look at 304's shading on the skin surface, he did a great job there.

Mordalles Nice details!

waheela Wow, also great progress here - I like the cards.

miguel You added lots of highlights - I think now your pic is just in need of some deeper shadows. The door for example looks flat - add shadows to make the different boards it is made of 3 dimensional.

Quote from: Andail on Thu 16/05/2013 21:43:38
    selmiak:
Not scary, but a nice comical touch.

Quote from: nihilyst on Thu 16/05/2013 11:02:03
selmiak:
That monster looks kind of cute, I can't help it. It might be the mouth or the "what's up?" kind of face. Don't know if that's what you were aiming at.

I hope I got rid of that hypnotoad resemblance with these skribbelings ;)

and since drawing penises on your monster is en vogue atm I added a mouthpenis. I don't know if it will stay though :=

Also added a very sketchy human, but I have no clue on his stance. I want him to hold a sword and a torch for additional lighting but having both sword and torch visible in a more or less natural approaching stance seems harder than I thought.

[imgzoom]http://i.imgur.com/60aUC9k.jpg[/imgzoom]

cat, the eyes and arm look a lot better! ;-D

selmiak, lol! All them sharp teeth, that's a horrible place for a penis. (wrong)
I like your monster changes! The only thing that distracts me is that tiny little eye antennae branching off from the middle one.

*******************

Here's my update...
(Link to original thread.) (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48220.msg636454495#msg636454495)

I tried adding a more scaly texture to Lord Jagged's belly, but I just didn't like how it looked. Too distracting, so I reverted to the original design and added to it more....

(http://i.imgur.com/yo8syAV.png)                (http://i.imgur.com/cgZ4ISk.png)

-Further developed Lord Jagged's other hand
-Added more contrast to the pic in general
-Colored in chest blazon. (Not quite happy with it.)
-Fixed (hopefully) the pillowy stomach

Tomorrow, I'll work on fixing the embossed leather (just doesn't look right, suggestions welcome) and developing the background. After that, I'll just continue to add more details to the pic until the deadline.

Progz: I'm paying the price for pasting it into the background, you got that right. I'm slowly working on it...
              The texture on your monster is looking great.

mordalles: new shell is looking great

waheela: thanks for your input! I'm trying to avoid putting the head behind the wall, does the new update improves or not?
                I like your Skyrim monster, you know that, the mouth looks absolutely terrifying! But the leather prop is going to be difficult to achieve.

cat: you're right about the highlights, working on it...

selmiak: that's the biggest penis of all monsters, so far...

Update 13 - The Divine Laundry Day

[imgzoom]http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm54/miguel20000/step13_8x6_zps6560d4c1.png[/imgzoom]

Here I'm trying to fix a screwed up image! To all you aspiring artists: follow my example of things NOT to do when painting!

I really think the slight adjustments have done a world of good to both cat and selmiak's images, they really look better! Loving everything else in here - a slight suggest for waheela: I really love how this is turning out, but some shadow under those scaly hands would really make them look a lot deeper, and push them into the image. They kinda feel a bit off without that shadow!

As for my own progress, I'm slowly rendering more detail into my image, just doing a little bit each day. A couple of things that have been challenging me: 1. my eye for anatomy is weak in places, so certain areas take me much longer to get looking right. 2. I'm unfamiliar with painting at this res, and so I tend to over-render a lot of things with brushes that are probably too small for the job. This means stuff takes more time to paint and to render smoothly needs a lot of working in. Anyway, here's how I'm progressing:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/phhsaxk9gmtt4xf/Sketch8%20copy8.png (https://www.dropbox.com/s/phhsaxk9gmtt4xf/Sketch8%20copy8.png)

Ben, definitely good progress. Now I think you're ready for some level 2 c&c :)

What I'm missing now is some kind of story. Some expression, some action, some movement. So you have a monster here, and being the only living figure he's the focal point of the scene, and at the moment he's not doing anything in particular. I can't even read if he's angry, if he's violent, or if he's just waiting for someone.
It would help immensely if we had a second figure, perhaps a human, a conjuror who just finished the summoning ritual. Or someone running away. Or hiding. Without a second character, I really think your monster has to do something, or express something, maybe pain from being summoned, maybe frustration, maybe he's raising a clenched fist against the moon.

On a technical level, I think it's looking good, but not all of the veins work. The veins on his thigh, for instance, look more like worms than anything belonging to his body. One reason may be that we don't see enough muscle tension or definition - veins typically bulge out on top of really defined or articulated muscles. Apart from that, I think there's too much highlighting on him. Consider that it's the moon emitting the light, and the moon is pretty low. Much of his left side should be in darkness, as well as his calf and most of his rib cage.

waheela, awesome detail. I love the card designs.

A suggestion for the belly: try googling crocodile belly, lots of nice references.

I took the first image I found and slapped it on Lord Jagged's belly.
I hope you don't mind, although he will probably kill me for that: http://i40.tinypic.com/30rpjbn.png

While this hack looks pretty crappy, it shows how straight lines might make the belly kind of lose its bloated look (unless that was intended)
Also the scales tend to get smaller towards the edges. This might need some work translating to the bipedal Kus, since I think the smaller scales are there to allow better sidewards movement which evolution would have shaped differently for your humanoid crocodile.

selmiak: The teeth and mouth shape looks really threatening, I like that a lot. Nice shading on the cave entrance. I also like the general idea of eyestalks growing out of eyestalks, but I think it might look better if it was either the same size (like a birth defect) or many small ones (wild chaotic eye growth)

cat: Awesome arms! I love how the pose looks very tense as if it's pushing its arms back with great effort going for high speed while straining to open its mouth wide. Very nice and streamlined. Only the legs don't quite fit to that concept.

dactylopus: Having little experience I like your flashlight approach, even if apparently it's not realistic. One thought: If the cave was really foggy, then the light would be clearly visible and not as hard on the creature. Maybe you can stress that angle.

miguel: The only thing I can put my finger on is that the head appears to be behind the door but casts a shadow as if it was in front of the door, maybe you can overlap the head with the door on the right? Also maybe you can overlap the claw with the stair to make him look more like he is standing on the edge of the step?

ProgZmax: Love the details! The lightning seems to go strongly diagonally from the back to the front. No idea what to do about that though.

Mordalles: Watching this unfold is a great pleasure, nothing to add.

SookieSock: The shading in your piece is an inspiration. And please tell me you spent at least an hour on the horse. The tree face gives a nice focus and in a video game it would perfectly show the player what to do with it ;)

Thanks for the comments! I will also try to change the legs with the next update.
@Andail: I noted you earlier comments about the size, but I had (and still have) no idea how I could overcome this issue. I think adding any human size reference would destroy the composition  :( I'll just pretend the bite is venomous to make it more scary...

I started to try shading the dragon, but I'm somehow stuck here. I tried to use brushes with lowered opacity, layers with different blend modes and using solid brushes with gradually changing the color but I'm not really satisfied with the outcome. What is the best approach to go for shading? Is it good to mix different techniques? It would be very helpful if some of you could describe their workflows for shading :-[

(http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/drawing_shading.jpg)

selmiak Great changes, looks much more scary now. About that guy: Now sword and torch both point upwards which looks a bit boring, maybe he could hold the sword pointed at the monster, as if to keep it at bay?

cat, I think it might have to do with the kelp which is usually tiny and thus makes the the monster look small.
However, decreasing its size might drastically change the composition.
If you have to add reference, maybe you can use a fairly large fish, but that would ruin the simplicity of the image.

In my humble opinion: Just to keep it as it is. I love this piece!

Thanks for your comments and feedback, ThreeOhFour, Cerno, cat and miguel!

cat, underwater lighting is hard, and I haven't nailed it, so I don't envy you. :P I tried to find some lighting photos that might help you out a bit...

(http://asudoit.com/dev/wp-content/uploads/Underwater-Monterey-Bay-Kelp-Forest-05.jpg)

(http://us.sydney.com/nsw/images/thingstodo/1059604natmontag2a230.jpg)

(http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000_Lyq2O9cctM/s/850/850/CA-HarborSealUnderwater.jpg)

These pics have roughly the same light source direction as your piece. I'd study the lighting in these to help you decide how you want to shade your creature. Something to keep in mind is that the deeper underwater you go, the more the lighting and shadows become dull, diffused and subtle.

When I shade (and I don't know if this is the "right way", self-taught), I make a greyscale layer on top of my sketch where I shade everything with blacks, whites and greys. Once I'm more or less satisfied, I set the layer to "multiply" and paint in color in a layer below this one. When shading or doing color, I sometimes use a really low opacity brush (10%ish) then build up over that again and again with the same brush (especially when doing skies). I also use the smudge tool a lot to blend anything that looks patchy. Hope this helps, and if anyone has a better way of doing this, please chime in. :)

Andail, you make some valid points. I've thought about the idea of adding a human in ever since Ilyich told me on skype that my image lacks a story, and unfortunately everything I've thought up so far is repulsively cheesy looking in my head. I agree about the lighting being out of order, this is a pretty bad habit I have, but I usually ignore realistic lighting in order to make a character more defined/readable. No doubt this comes from a lack of doing studies from real life!

cat, I broke the 'no paintover' rule to do a really quick example .psd of how you can add some simple shading to your pic without relying on blending modes or special layers. Every layer is titled with the method I've used on that layer - although I normally paint all on one layer, I've done it like this to give an idea of each brush used. A bit rough, but I only spend a few minutes and maybe it'll help! Here's the link https://www.dropbox.com/s/km5qa5g0i1phvzy/Shading%20Cat.psd (https://www.dropbox.com/s/km5qa5g0i1phvzy/Shading%20Cat.psd)

Week 2, step 1, 'Better late than never' or 'Coloring the damn thing' ;)  

I thought I'll be more active in this week but life got in the way  :( Only today I could find some more time to paint. I'll give you guys some feedback later :)

While painting, I've experimented with different color variants (using Color Balance in Photoshop), looking for the one I'd like most.

(http://i.imgur.com/87dZNYK.jpg)

I wanted colors to be vibrant, but not too vibrant. Oversaturation, as seen on the middle thumbnail in the lower row, was out of question.

After few attempts, I've found the color palette I like. 

(http://i.imgur.com/aSJKTxk.jpg)

Here's the same picture, only with Curves adjusted in PS:

(http://i.imgur.com/iGNKWNT.jpg)

I'll probably do something in between.

I'm afraid I won't have time to experiment with changing the scenery or making the cave less generic, but it's not that important. Next, I'll work on details with small brush. There's also that monster's opponent to paint. I'll probably have to make canvas bigger to make room for the human. Still quite a lot to do with that painting.     

Feedback is most welcome :)

Read my monster thread (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48175.msg636453493#msg636453493)

Awesome guys, thanks a lot! I'll have a closer look at the reference pics and fantastic paintover when I come home this evening.

Kasander Interesting style, I'm looking forward to see where this is going

Kasander, hmmm, I absolutely love your monster, but the pastel colors and chalky painting style kind of remind me of a children's book illustration, which makes it less scary for me. :(

Quote from: waheela on Fri 24/05/2013 18:42:52
Kasander, hmmm, I absolutely love your monster, but the pastel colors and chalky painting style kind of remind me of a children's book illustration, which makes it less scary for me. :(

Don't worry, getting into details is my next step :)

@Cerno:
I'm glad some of my suggestions have worked out for you ;) You've made a very good decision to use such strong, powerful colors. And a bold one! Sometimes people shy away from using bright colors - like the reds in your painting - so I can only applaud that. And it suits the theme of your composition - which is 'clash of two elemental powers in the hellish land of volcanoes' - very well. It has a  poster-like, expressive look (I mean like proper pre-1990s poster) - simple shapes and colors that draw attention.
I think now is the time to introduce more details, as well as different shades of red and blue, to your painting.
As for the colors, perhaps it would be a good idea to make the blue color near the center of wizard's orb brighter (after all, his orb is acting like a source of light).
Be careful about the volcanoes - the lava is naturally supposed to be bright, so it tends to draw attention away from the main heroes of the composition (monster and wizard)... The volcano with flowing lava streams on the left from wizard is a good example of such 'attention grabber'. You could push it to the back, darken it or make the platform on which wizard stands bigger, so it will obscure the volcano. 
Regarding the monster itself, try to vary thickness of its body, especially limbs and tail. Have a look at the references we've gathered in this thread so far (as well as that simplified monster drawing in one of my previous posts.
I forgot to mention: I also like the flames coming out of the dragon's eyes . I have no idea what they are/how are they possible, I'm just suspending my disbelief here;) That's pretty unique, a dragon with flaming eyes - literally ;)

@waheela:
I like how accurately you've drawn the fortune teller's hands - well done! Also, the monster's grin is great. 
If you have problems drawing embossed leather try to just make it brighter, 'push it forward' by painting with lighter shades.
The bright background with cemetery and the clouds (I like them a lot!) draw too much attention, imo. Perhaps you should think about making the monster brighter? There's also the possibility of changing the day for night and using the artificial source of light (like lantern) to lit  the cards and table. Maybe you could paint some thumbnail sketches to try out some other options and see which one works best for you? I can't help noticing the fortune teller's hands are still very small compared to the lizard:)

@Selmiak,
Change of scale paid off. Introducing an opponent for your penisosaurus was a good idea.  Before that, I've imagined the monster to be only slightly bigger than a frog. Now I wonder if you are going to paint that tongue.

@ mordalles
Brilliant :) It's getting better and better. I like the ribcage on monster's back! I hope you'll have time to color it.

@ SookieSock
i like your monster much better now. It's really more believable than it was before. Also, I like the shading. Carry on!

Quote from: Kasander on Fri 24/05/2013 20:00:18
@Selmiak,
Change of scale paid off. Introducing an opponent for your penisosaurus was a good idea.  Before that, I've imagined the monster to be only slightly bigger than a frog. Now I wonder if you are going to paint that tongue.

I'm wondering too...  should I?



and please explain how you color these b/w lightvolumes pictures. I always wondered how you do that? Some special layer overlay setting in PS? Or just paint over it with 100% opacity and use the b/w image as a pointer? I am also interested in how Mordalles does this.

@cat: with shading, do you mean just how to make the body of the waterdragon appear 3dimensional or how to give it some scales like texture?

miguel -- It does look better, but... hmmm... maybe you could move him a little to the left so his head isn't against the wall?

Cerno -- Thanks for the mock-up! You do have some good points about the scales. I think I may be digging the fleshy, big, gluttonous look a little more at this point though.

Kasander --

QuoteIf you have problems drawing embossed leather try to just make it brighter, 'push it forward' by painting with lighter shades.

I did try that, but the lighter I made the leather, the more it popped out and distracted me from the rest of the piece. I messed around with it a bit more and think I have it where I want it at this point.

QuoteThe bright background with cemetery and the clouds (I like them a lot!) draw too much attention, imo.

I reworked it a bit (see below). I smoothed out the clouds, further developed the graveyard, and added more contrast to the monster. Is this a little better? I really like the overcast sky, and would like to keep it.

QuoteI can't help noticing the fortune teller's hands are still very small compared to the lizard:)

Yeah, I think I kind of like that, so I'm leaning towards keeping it that way. I do appreciate your feedback on that though.


*******************


Here's a few of things I've updated...

-Added a little bit of shadow under Lord Jagged's hands (response to ThreeOhFour's feedback)
-Further developed the sky and graveyard
-Fixed chest blazon
-Added more contrast
-Added more detail to Lord Jagged's face and head
-Other stuff too boring to mention

(http://i.imgur.com/LFlmFSn.png)

At this point, I'm not really sure how much further I can push this. Maybe adding more detail to the background? Feedback (as always) is welcome!

update of mine... i've kinda finished the grayscale one, and did a quickish colour test thing. its pretty rough, but I'll leave it like this. added a few more highlights on the skin also, and finished those statues.

(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercoceptfinalsmall.png)

so a very rough larger version... (with a few unpainted bits to the left and right i'll just keep that way :))
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercoceptfinal.png)

Quote from: selmiak on Fri 24/05/2013 20:53:00
and please explain how you color these b/w lightvolumes pictures. I always wondered how you do that? Some special layer overlay setting in PS? Or just paint over it with 100% opacity and use the b/w image as a pointer? I am also interested in how Mordalles does this.

um, i've never really done the colouring part. I use gimp, and in it i used the "color" layer over the grayscale, on which i paint my wanted colours to get this final version. im not sure how correct that is.


EDIT: i just toned down the colours a bit, was a bit over the top.. I will consider this my final version, even though it still pretty rough with lots of things bugging me..
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x122/mordalles/monstercoceptfinal2.png)

Quote from: selmiak on Fri 24/05/2013 20:53:00
and please explain how you color these b/w lightvolumes pictures. I always wondered how you do that? Some special layer overlay setting in PS? Or just paint over it with 100% opacity and use the b/w image as a pointer?

Basically I create a new layer on top of that grayscale one and just paint on it. For this worshop I wasn't even using overlay setting. I was just painting thigs over and over, adjusting color balance and hues, and erasing here and there. I often start from lighter tones and then gradually use darker ones - a kind of habit from pre-digital age.

When painting with brushes I use 100% opacity to 'block' colors (either on a specific part of the composition, or on the whole picture at once - the latter perhpaps is a bit wiser as it allows you to have an overall feel of the picture). Then I change the opacity a lot to do smooth transitions between colors. When I'm doing shades, I use usually the same color on the coloring wheel/square, only a darker or lighter shade. For example, to do shading on monsters arm, I press Alt to use the color picker on the monster's arm, then I pick a shade of green which is closer to black or closer to white on the color wheel. How much closer? Well, it's a matter of instinct really and it comes with experience. I remember I had this exact problem with shading when I was starting to paint in PS and the more I was painting in PS the more this problem evaporated. I know it's a cliche and everyone is telling this, but I can confirm from my own experience that practice makes you better. 

The finishing touches are done again with 100% opacity and with a small brush. Otherwise the painting would look blurry and lack focus.
If you're unsure of which colors to use, I strongly advice to create thumbnails and paint them over. Do a few of them and you'll know which colors work best for you and which way to go.

...
On a side note, I use few custom brushes that give some interesting textures to the painting. But looking at the big scheme I think they aren't that important, at least not for me. Especially when I'm aiming for less 'arty', more 'concept art' feeling. In the final phase of the painting I usually work with the default oval brush, only varying its opacity and thickness. I find custom brushes very convenient for sketches though. One could say, they give some analog soul to that soulless digital painting look :)

Quote from: waheela on Sat 25/05/2013 00:44:27

QuoteThe bright background with cemetery and the clouds (I like them a lot!) draw too much attention, imo.

I reworked it a bit (see below). I smoothed out the clouds, further developed the graveyard, and added more contrast to the monster. Is this a little better? I really like the overcast sky, and would like to keep it.

Yeah, it's looking better now :)  Still, imho the monster is too dark compared to the rest of the painting. It's a common rule that the bright parts of the composition in painting usually grabs viewer's attention. Look at this:
http://pinterest.com/suehcarter/a-art-outdoor-portrait/

As you see, in most, if not all, daylight outdoor portraits the face of the subject is just as bright - or brighter - than the surroundings. This is the trick both 'analog' and digital painters use to focus viewer's attention on the subject/person.

In your case, the brighter surroundings (together with fortune teller's hands) take away all the attention from the lizard. Monster's chest is especially dark. I know he's supposed to be 'dark' and scary creature, but imo he wouldn't be less scary when he was painted with brighter shades and less black.

I didn't find any photos of humanoid lizards sitting outdoors at the table but maybe looking at some romanticism paintings would help? They surely loved to do overcast sky back then:
https://www.google.pl/search?q=Eug%C3%A8ne%20Delacroix%20%281798-1863%29%2C%20The%20Natchez&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:pl:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=enbm=isch&source=og&sa=Nab=wi&ei=cz6iUZbAH-iO7QbQ7IDIBg&biw=960&bih=452&sei=dT6iUZ_ODIKQ7AbstICwBg#imgrc=_

Keep up the good work!

Quick reminder that midnight tomorrow (Monday 27th) is the final deadline. I will then take the latest version every participant has published and put it up for voting.

Water dragon, week 3, step 1 - Shading
Back to initial post (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48220.msg636454485#msg636454485)

(http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/dragon_shaded.jpg)

With Ben's fantastic paintover I tried some shading. I'm still missing some highlights on the kelp and I'm not satisfied with the legs yet.
Thanks Ben for your help. Also thanks to everyone who shared their way of shading, this is very interesting.

already? lol, I thought there is a 4th week. good reminder! :D
why is Django sooo good keeping me away from this?

I'll work hard on my monster and try to incorporate everyone's good advice.

cat: Your water dragon is coming along nicely.  I like the limbs, and you've got a better handle on the lighting now.

Mordalles: Your monster looks fantastic.  I tried to think of criticism, but had a lot of trouble.

waheela: Your monster is looking very sinister.  The fixes you made to the hands helped a lot.  The background looks a lot nicer, too.

Kasander: Good job with the colors, I like your decision.  I wonder if the red-orange on the plant-tentacle's mouth is a little too bright for the lighting.

Great work, guys!

Looking amazing guys!

Unless I make a bit more time to work on this, this can be considered my final image. Ta!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s4j9i483fl1u2rg/Sketch8%20copy11.png (https://www.dropbox.com/s/s4j9i483fl1u2rg/Sketch8%20copy11.png)

Quote from: Andail on Sun 26/05/2013 21:15:01
Quick reminder that midnight tomorrow (Monday 27th) is the final deadline. I will then take the latest version every participant has published and put it up for voting.

Andail, if everybody agrees, can I have a few more hours? I finish work around midnight today but would like to make some adjustments. All slider adjustments, no drawing. Some framing, contrast/light stuff mainly. Please? Oh pretty please?
If I'm not done until 2.00am 28th May, then consider my last update the final one. Please?

Miguel, I don't wanna act like some kind of dictator here, especially since I'm participating myself, so if people agree to postpone the deadline I don't really want to object. Although I would personally prefer if we didn't :)

Anyhow, here's my latest version. Unless anybody spots something downright atrocious in it, I'll probably consider it my final piece.
(http://www.esseb.com/andail/graphics/hoveringmonster.png)
There are still unfinished parts, like most of the street and the nearer structures, and also there's a sun missing, since as you can see there are lots of yellow-ish reflections and highlights, but no yellow light source. I just couldn't be arsed to put it back. So just imagine the sun will ya?

I'm not particularly pleased with the hoverbike thingie, but motors and vehicles aren't really my field. The biggest change since the previous version is that I went for a traditional central perspective.

Water dragon - Final drawing
Back to initial post (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48220.msg636454485#msg636454485)

So here is my final drawing. Click on the picture for the high-res version:



(http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/dragon_final_small.jpg) (http://cat.agser.me/pics/workshop/dragon_final.jpg)



I don't mind if miguel is a few hours late - I won't stay up till midnight anyway. As long as I can admire all the fantastic entries tomorrow morning when I turn on my PC, I'm happy  ;)

I've had some jobs but I managed to work on the contrast and lighting around the creature as Loominous suggested as well as to get rid of the distracting lighthouse beam.  I've pushed the colors, added details, and generally cleaned most of it up.  I'm still trying to figure out how I get a pleasing water ripple effect like Ryan's example but I'm working on it :).  Best viewed on a neutral/gray backdrop (or fullscreen).

(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/deadlydepths6_zpse2f71bb8.png)

Let me know if you think I went too dark with this as I can easily fix it.  I'm somewhat pleased with it and with what I've learned working on it.

what timezone midnight are we talking about? :)
Anyways, I could need some more hours too probably.

in case I sleep away because of exhaustation, here is the current state as of typing this
[imgzoom]http://i.imgur.com/HN8YFWb.jpg[/imgzoom]
I clearly have no idead about todays herofashion, but the monster is the main thing anyways :)


@Shane: the darkness is cool, but some more highlights are not that wrong, on the rifle for example, you can't see it. And somehow make the form of the cliff more visible with some highlights.

Oh I read 2 pm, don't ask me why. Ofc 2 am isnt a problem. I'm thinking greenwich time btw. Either way I wont start the poll until tomorrow so it's no big deal anyway.

Great work everyone! - I enjoyed seeing everyone's process (and progress) :)

While I didn't have time to do too much, I got to work a little bit on the large window. It's a very rough sketch, and I did it mostly to try work a bit more with these brushes and figure out how to implement them in my drawing-style. Probably too rough and painterly to match my characters, but it was really fun to experiment with (even though lighting and shadows are terrible).

(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa412/misj1270/WindowSketch_zps0e90cc8b.png)

Sorry I couldn't me more useful these last two weeks...

Week 3 Final Image backlink (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48220.msg636454500#msg636454500)

Time's up. Here's my final version (click for full size image):

(http://www.pancakeelement.de/AGS/final_800.png) (http://www.pancakeelement.de/AGS/final_full.png)

Phew that surely shaved some time off my life. Worth every minute though ;)
Unfortunately now I'll have to consider redrawing everything I did for the game I'm working on so far...

final image
(http://selmiak.bplaced.net/stuff/monster_small.jpg) (http://selmiak.bplaced.net/stuff/monster_full.jpg)

full size on click

(http://i.imgur.com/VdDQyAu.jpg)
It's not finished but it'll have to do. Cheers!

Well I'm posting my final picture hoping that it counts.
All the stuff here is magnificent and I'm really proud to have participated in it.
So, without further delay:

Step 14 - The Final Orgy or Portuguese Women Don't Need Silicone
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm54/miguel20000/step14_zpsa40c5c3a.png)

Thanks for letting me say Barracuda.
And Testicle.

Great results, people.  Some of these would look great on the wall.
Kasander, yours would look excellent on a T-shirt!

Aha!  I finally got the waves to show up reasonably without sacrificing some of the spookiness of the darker image.  I also added some more highlight to the gun barrel so it showed up better, fixed the angle of his trigger hand and did some touch up on the boats and the lead cultist.  I'm calling this MISSION: COMPLETE.

(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/deadlydepths7_zps17a4c9b0.png)

Full size version:

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/deadlydepths7_zps17a4c9b0.png

OK, hope I can still post this:

(http://i43.tinypic.com/8vuowj.png)

I'll consider this final as far as the workshop goes, but I may continue to work on this on my own.  There are a few areas I think I could improve.  It was great to have something to work on, but the deadline was difficult to meet.

Thanks for the opportunity, and all of the kind comments and helpful criticism.  I'm pretty happy with this piece, considering it's my first real attempt at real digital art.

Everyone's work looks fantastic!  I'm going to have a hard time deciding who gets my vote.

Quote from: Stupot+ on Tue 28/05/2013 01:38:10
Great results, people.  Some of these would look great on the wall.
Kasander, yours would look excellent on a T-shirt!

Thanks!

All in all, I think everyone in this workshop did great and should give himself/herself a well-deserved pat in the back! I'm glad I could be helpful and give few ounces of advice to you guys. I wish all those who had to drop out could have more time to finish their pieces. Some of these monsters looked very promising, to say the least. 


@ selmiak
Now I wonder why you were asking about coloring before. You did some splendid work with on that piece. The progress between 'penisosaurus' and your last painting is huge. It seems to me you don't really need any special tips. You already know the 'how to do it's of digital painting very well. At this point you don't really need much advice... except maybe looking more at the references, like pictures of nature (I've noticed your tendency to do similar, oval-shaped rocks) . You can steadily improve on you own. Great idea with introducing warm source of light (torch) as opposite to the cold blue light on the left. Great lighting and shading overall. I'm really impressed.

@ Cerno
You've done great! It's looking much more polished now. I love the details and the light that comes from wizard's orb. You seem to have a good eye for picking colors, Cerno. Perhaps you should consider old-school 'acrylics/oils on canvas' painting as a hobby? As Stupot says, your painting would look great on the wall!
----




-----
Back to my monster.
It's the same picture, I've only marked some major mistakes or things which could be improved upon. It would benefit from couple hours of polishing.
(http://i.imgur.com/MpR8Jzd.jpg)

1. The right arm of a warrior needs a proper, real life reference or enlisting help of some humanoid (model). I didn't have time for this, so I've only googled for javelin throwers - and it turned out there are no pics of them photographed from this very angle. An artists' anatomy book could do the trick, too.   
2. The light on parts of the warrior is too bright. It could be ok if she was closer to the monster but she's quite far actually.
3. I could introduce a third character to the scene. It would fill an empty corner of the painting and also could bring along some source of light -a torch or lantern.
4. The hanging roots were a late addition and were supposed to be an early stage of carniparas (the plant that 'grows' from monsters' hands). I think they draw a bit too much attention, so darkening should  solve the problem.
Any suggestions about these or other issues are of course most welcomed.

I'm very impressed with the finished pieces here. Selmiak, Cerno and ProgZmax in particular handily outdid my expectations based on the initial sketches.

As a general comment, I think in almost all cases, introducing people into the picture has detracted from the impact of the monster.

First, humans draw a lot of attention, which means drawing it away from the monster (Andail's picture is perhaps the clearest example of this). Second, the heroic poses chosen by e.g. Kasander and Selmiak tend to change the tone from nightmarish to "video game boss battle"-ish. The only case where I think it really works is SookieSock's sketch, which successfully captures the drama of D&D art.

Quote from: Kasander on Tue 28/05/2013 12:20:37
@ selmiak
Now I wonder why you were asking about coloring before. You did some splendid work with on that piece. The progress between 'penisosaurus' and your last painting is huge. It seems to me you don't really need any special tips. You already know the 'how to do it's of digital painting very well. At this point you don't really need much advice... except maybe looking more at the references, like pictures of nature (I've noticed your tendency to do similar, oval-shaped rocks) . You can steadily improve on you own. Great idea with introducing warm source of light (torch) as opposite to the cold blue light on the left. Great lighting and shading overall. I'm really impressed.

thanks. I didn't use any b/w colorvolume at all, just painted where I felt it is right :)
So I wondered if there is maybe some hidden magic to these lightvolumes I don't see. But then I think for 2 lightsources it gets really hard to read in b/w.
I didn't use any references at all except for the pose of the character but this reference was not spot on and had to be improved, but you are right, nearly all stones look alike. Only the stones in the foreground look different, there I was creative somehow, the rest was just mere filler stuff or so.

The root in the upper right don't distract at all, they look good and I like pictures where I can find even more interesting things after seeing the main theme of the image. I'd even add them to the lower right too, it fits the theme really good. The 2nd character is also a good idea I'd like to see but time is up, I'd also like to add some more stuff to my picture :)



and I think this might be useful for interested people, so here is a little shading progress
(http://selmiak.bplaced.net/stuff/shading.gif)

Quote from: Snarky on Tue 28/05/2013 13:20:46
As a general comment, I think in almost all cases, introducing people into the picture has detracted from the impact of the monster.

First, humans draw a lot of attention, which means drawing it away from the monster (Andail's picture is perhaps the clearest example of this). Second, the heroic poses chosen by e.g. Kasander and Selmiak tend to change the tone from nightmarish to "video game boss battle"-ish. The only case where I think it really works is SookieSock's sketch, which successfully captures the drama of D&D art.

Well, as far as things go for me, that "video game boss battle" look was pretty much what I was aiming for. Quote from my monster thread:

"My main goal: to paint a monster that I could put in my concept art/illustration portfolio.
It has to be a monster that could be used in a video game. I'm thinking about a big, high-leveled, 'boss' type creature that player's character could encounter at the end of some maze, at the bottom of the cave or...well, at the end of the level :)"

As for the other people's works, I think that what you perceive as being either video game or DnD look is highly subjective. IMHO, Selmiak's picture has a very DnD feel. The whole scene is set in a dungeon, and there's that classical hero in a cape, with a torch. The earlier version of it reminded me about a scene from certain DnD book from Endless Quest series. That's because selmiak's monster was a bit frog-like to me and the setting was similar to the one pictured in the book (Dungeon of Dread, page 30). Even more so, there's waheela's picture, which as I was saying from the start, remind me of those CYOA and Endless Quest books by its first person perspective... and it's has VERY little (if any) video game feel. Shane's picture could easily fit into any CoC RPG article from rpg mag I used to read in the last millenium... On the other hand, Cerno's picture with its powerful colors remind me of expressionistic paintings and posters from 1920s-1930s. And so on...       

So I'd say, monstrosity is in the eye of beholder ;)

PS As for me and human in my picture, you could also put the blame on Andail who posted link to Frazetta's works. Those were really inspiring. Looking at them convinced me to bring monster's opponent in :)   

Quote from: selmiak
The root in the upper right don't distract at all, they look good and I like pictures where I can find even more interesting things after seeing the main theme of the image. I'd even add them to the lower right too, it fits the theme really good. The 2nd character is also a good idea I'd like to see but time is up, I'd also like to add some more stuff to my picture :)

Thanks for the feedback. I'll finish this as soon as I have more time. It would be cool to have some 'monster after party' with the 'definitive' versions of the monsters (laugh). It's just that most of the folks didn't have enough time on their hands to finish their pieces and dropped out of the workshop at one point or the other.

I'd really want to encourage others to finish their works... Pursuing and finishing one thing gives you so much more than having dozen WIP on the board (I wish I knew that obvious truth much earlier).

Quote from: Kasander on Tue 28/05/2013 17:06:08
PS As for me and human in my picture, you could also put the blame on Andail who posted link to Frazetta's works. Those were really inspiring. Looking at them convinced me to bring monster's opponent in :)   

Hey! Snarky already explained I was guilty of the biggest attention-diverting crime here, and now you to tell him to blame me even more? :)

I personally find the human figures in most of these paintings really fitting, if not downright necessary. Especially Selmiak's monster didn't even strike me as more than insect-sized before the man showed up, and it was also impossible to understand what he was doing there. Now there's a context, a story to be read - he's gigantic and he's guarding the cave there. Or something.

Quote from: Kasander on Tue 28/05/2013 12:20:37
@ Cerno
You've done great! It's looking much more polished now. I love the details and the light that comes from wizard's orb. You seem to have a good eye for picking colors, Cerno. Perhaps you should consider old-school 'acrylics/oils on canvas' painting as a hobby? As Stupot says, your painting would look great on the wall!

(http://www.pancakeelement.de/ohstopityou.png)

But really, being pessimistic me, I'll attribute this to beginner's luck until I'll be able to reproduce it. ;)
Thanks for all the help and encouragement, to everyone here. Wouldn't have been able to pull it off otherwise.

Looking at the picture again today, it's kinda hard to believe I did this. (laugh)

Quote from: Kasander on Tue 28/05/2013 17:06:08
Well, as far as things go for me, that "video game boss battle" look was pretty much what I was aiming for. Quote from my monster thread:

"My main goal: to paint a monster that I could put in my concept art/illustration portfolio.
It has to be a monster that could be used in a video game. I'm thinking about a big, high-leveled, 'boss' type creature that player's character could encounter at the end of some maze, at the bottom of the cave or...well, at the end of the level :)"

OK, then I guess you achieved what you were going for! I still think it's a bit of a shame, though, since it tends to "safen" what's arguably the scariest monster in the whole contest.

QuoteAs for the other people's works, I think that what you perceive as being either video game or DnD look is highly subjective.
...
So I'd say, monstrosity is in the eye of beholder ;)

I probably didn't express that quite right. SookieSock's battle has a kind of serenity of drama, a grandeur that reminded me of a certain kind of D&D art. Maybe Shadow of the Colossus would have been a more appropriate reference. My point was that I think the human (and horse) in that picture is essential to its effectiveness, which in my view isn't the case in the other examples (not counting waheela's, in which we don't really see the person apart from the hands). They certainly have other qualities, but I would argue that they would generally be better without the people in them.

Quote from: Andail on Tue 28/05/2013 18:02:41
Hey! Snarky already explained I was guilty of the biggest attention-diverting crime here

Well, you did talk about how you expected to spend the last half of the contest mainly working on the characters, so my impression is that this is true for the artist as well as for the viewer.

Quote from: Andail on Tue 28/05/2013 18:02:41
I personally find the human figures in most of these paintings really fitting, if not downright necessary. Especially Selmiak's monster didn't even strike me as more than insect-sized before the man showed up, and it was also impossible to understand what he was doing there. Now there's a context, a story to be read - he's gigantic and he's guarding the cave there. Or something.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.  ;)

Selmiak's entry certainly improved greatly in the final edit, but I think he could have achieved what you were missing without adding a human character to the scene.

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 07:53:24
OK, then I guess you achieved what you were going for! I still think it's a bit of a shame, though, since it tends to "safen" what's arguably the scariest monster in the whole contest.

Oh, there would be no problem with removing the human warrior if there was need. It's PS after all and she's on a separate layer ;)  I wanted it to function not only as a piece of concept art but also as a painting that could feature on a book or game cover. A lonely monster is just a piece of concept art, not much more. A video game concept art or DnD concept art, it's pretty much the same case to me. It can be more scary since all the focus is on it (+1), but it lacks the story (-1) and can't be seen as a painting per se  (-1) ;)

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 07:53:24
I probably didn't express that quite right. SookieSock's battle has a kind of serenity of drama, a grandeur that reminded me of a certain kind of D&D art. Maybe Shadow of the Colossus would have been a more appropriate reference. My point was that I think the human (and horse) in that picture is essential to its effectiveness, which in my view isn't the case in the other examples (not counting waheela's, in which we don't really see the person apart from the hands). They certainly have other qualities, but I would argue that they would generally be better without the people in them.

Well, I disagree. In most cases these other qualities greatly outweight the 'negatives'. Qualities like background story and drama that comes with it. I could only agree with you to some extent in Andail's case - and that's because the monster occupies relatively small part of the picture. Having said that, I still think Andail's decision was a 100% valid one. Pushing the moster to the background made his painting quite original and refreshing. It's one of the most creative and ambitious paintings here.

Perhaps works like Andail's or mine fit the theme of 'monster workshop' less, but thanks to introducing humans, as well as other elements (like Andail's hoverbike) we all could learn so much more. And that's what workshops are about in the end, aren't they? ;)   

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 07:53:24
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.  ;)
Selmiak's entry certainly improved greatly in the final edit, but I think he could have achieved what you were missing without adding a human character to the scene.

Like how? Elaborate, please.

Introducing the story in this kind of art is easiest when it's being built on tension. And the tension is easiest to build between two opposites. Between circle and triangle, between big monster and small human, etc.

In selmiak's case, the improvement over the early version seems to me quite stunning. What was initially a picture of a cartoony, lonely creature (it wasn't even a 'monster', until selmiak painted the human in, showing the true scale of it), turned out to be one of the best paintings of the workshop. Removing a human (together with the source of warm light) would cut down it's impact by half. 

There are also pictures in which introducing human could make a painting more effective, because it would show the monster's scale, add a story and tension, like for example in cat's picture (she didn't want to paint human in because it could destroy the composition).

On a side note, Miguel had a clever idea with the dungeon door, which helped to show the real scale of his monster and he found a way (chains, blood) to introduce a story without introducing a human.

Quote from: Cerno on Tue 28/05/2013 18:25:35
(http://www.pancakeelement.de/ohstopityou.png)

I mean it. What I've said before about beginners being afraid of using colors (in art classes even), I spoke from experience. Man, I've seen people who are so afraid of 'those disturbing colors' they hide in the cellar developing b/w photography all of their life. It's like they were looking at the world throuh their noble b/w lenses, color blind! When they see a raibow they almost faint :) And some of them are academic-level professors :D ! So yeah, it's refreshing to see a beginner who isn't afraid of colors.

Regarding the monster effect mentioned by Snarky I think that in no circumstances was I detracted from the notion of monstrosity (when human figures were added). In fact, like said before, it gave those paintings some story, drama and a notion of scale in most cases.
This is all obvious and a technique used very frequently. The use of human figures enhanced the monstrosity of the beast portrayed.

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 07:53:24Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.  ;)

I also want to agree that I disagree with you ;)

The original rule-set clearly stated:

Quote from: Andail on Sun 05/05/2013 17:24:15This workshop isn't exactly game-oriented, since I'm asking you to make a full-sized, hi-res illustration. This time your artwork should feature any kind of monster of your own design. It can be a portrait, or a whole scene. It can be cartoony or horrifically realistic, any genre, style or execution.

...

* We're talking illustration here, so it's not a sprite, and it's not a background. While it may be a portrait, it's a portrait with some sort of backdrop (not just a floating face). Preferably, there's something going on, or at least something being expressed.

It never demands monsters to be nightmarish, evil, etc., and I personally think that a focusing solely on 'scary' is way to limiting and one-dimensional (character-wise). I actually applaud putting the monster's behaviour into context; and that includes an antagonist (the humans). Take for example Mordalles' monster, with the city in the background he give me the impression of a guardian rather than a monster in the 'evil' sense...and that would actually make him a good guy. That doesn't make him less of a monster though.

Unlike a lot of you, apparently, I was always more interested in this workshop as being about portraying a monster than "paint a nice picture and stick a monster in there somewhere." Perhaps it's just because I do tend to look at all of these activities as ultimately being about informing game creation (at least in theory), so in my mind this workshop was "really" about making monster concept art.

Quote from: Kasander on Wed 29/05/2013 11:17:30
Oh, there would be no problem with removing the human warrior if there was need. It's PS after all and she's on a separate layer ;)  I wanted it to function not only as a piece of concept art but also as a painting that could feature on a book or game cover. A lonely monster is just a piece of concept art, not much more. A video game concept art or DnD concept art, it's pretty much the same case to me. It can be more scary since all the focus is on it (+1), but it lacks the story (-1) and can't be seen as a painting per se  (-1) ;)

Quote from: miguel on Wed 29/05/2013 11:45:02
Regarding the monster effect mentioned by Snarky I think that in no circumstances was I detracted from the notion of monstrosity (when human figures were added). In fact, like said before, it gave those paintings some story, drama and a notion of scale in most cases.
This is all obvious and a technique used very frequently. The use of human figures enhanced the monstrosity of the beast portrayed.

No doubt adding humans can solve certain problems, and I don't mean to say it's always the wrong choice (I liked Mordalles tiny soldier figures, for examples). But I don't agree with the implication that it's the only way to solve them, or the best way. Ben304 did it using props and dramatic lighting. Mordalles and miguel used the setting, primarily (as did I in my sketch). Waheela put the person almost entirely out of frame.

Quote from: Kasander on Wed 29/05/2013 11:17:30
Like how? Elaborate, please.

Introducing the story in this kind of art is easiest when it's being built on tension. And the tension is easiest to build between two opposites. Between circle and triangle, between big monster and small human, etc.

Well, for example, one of selmiak's original reference images was Gollum sitting on a rock, which I think accomplishes a lot of storytelling very simply.

For storytelling and tension, there's a lot that can be done with posing/action, light, point of view and field of view, atmospheric perspective, and props/scenery. Or even some creature other than a human. (For a cheesy example, what if in your image, instead of the charging warrior with the spear, there was a terrified cat raising its back?) My personal opinion is that exploring some of these options could, in most of these examples, have led to more interesting solutions than just sticking a person in there (which starts to feel a bit like a cop-out once everyone starts doing it, and IMO blunts the effectiveness).

If it helps, maybe try to think about landscape photos and other pictures with no humans in the image. They can still have drama, conflict/contrast, and even tell a story. It might be more challenging, but that also means the solutions can be more interesting.

QuoteIn selmiak's case, the improvement over the early version seems to me quite stunning. What was initially a picture of a cartoony, lonely creature (it wasn't even a 'monster', until selmiak painted the human in, showing the true scale of it), turned out to be one of the best paintings of the workshop. Removing a human (together with the source of warm light) would cut down it's impact by half.

I certainly wouldn't eliminate the light, no.

QuoteThere are also pictures in which introducing human could make a painting more effective, because it would show the monster's scale, add a story and tension, like for example in cat's picture (she didn't want to paint human in because it could destroy the composition).

Again the thinking seems to be, "Hmm... there's a problem with some aspect of this image. What to do? Oh, just stick a person in there! Problem solved!"

How about adding some smaller fishes for scale instead? Or adjusting those underwater plants to give a greater sense of scale? Make the dragon trail bubbles? Increasing the use of atmospheric perspective/water haze, and adding some particles? Putting in some underwater cliffs, or a wreck in the distance, a sunken city or something? (I get the impression cat ran out of time, and maybe she would have tried some of these options if she were to work more on it.)

Quote from: Misj' on Wed 29/05/2013 12:41:11I actually applaud putting the monster's behaviour into context; and that includes an antagonist (the humans).

The assumption that a monster picture can't be interesting and dramatic without a human fighting it or fleeing from it (to exaggerate a bit) seems to me like a creative capitulation.

This is probably coming across more aggressively than I intend it. I'm just trying to convince you that there are drawbacks, and that it's worth trying to come up with alternatives.

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 18:29:10
I get the impression cat ran out of time, and maybe she would have tried some of these options if she were to work more on it.

Actually, I ran out of ideas. I added atmospheric perspective, but maybe it was not enough. I wouldn't know how and what to add without looking out of place.

With my piece, I ran out of time.  I would have gone further with detail on the rocks, added more fur texture to the monster, and drawn a better human, among other tweaks.  I stupidly drew the light source before the character, and as a result the scale is a little off from what I was going for.

All of the criticisms helped, at least to understand what I was doing wrong.

I was inspired by the 'Frazetta Triangle' we had discussed early on, and I tried to give my piece a geometric feel.

Final criticisms:

I think that ProgZ's is still a little too dark for me, but it came out really nice overall.

I can see that time was an issue for others.  Miguel's as well as my own could have benefited from more attention.  Also, others were unable to complete and had to drop out.  It's unfortunate.

I am surprised with how well selmiak's piece turned out.  The second light source helped a lot.  The same can be said of Cerno's piece.

Kasander, cat, and waheela's pieces are all great, and show really nice progress throughout.

My top picks would have to be Mordalles, Andail, selmiak, 304, and SookieSock, but well done by all.

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 18:29:10Unlike a lot of you, apparently, I was always more interested in this workshop as being about portraying a monster than "paint a nice picture and stick a monster in there somewhere." Perhaps it's just because I do tend to look at all of these activities as ultimately being about informing game creation (at least in theory), so in my mind this workshop was "really" about making monster concept art.

I would normally agree with you on this. However, the contest clearly stated that "this workshop isn't exactly game-oriented, since I'm asking you to make a full-sized, hi-res illustration". Still, as you could see from my posts, I still approached it largely as making a monster concept-art; working with character sheets, clothing concepts, etc. But that's largely the way I work. To me this was the main goal of the first week (and it could easily have lasted another two, three weeks (read: months)).

In the second half - the half that never got finished unfortunately - I tried to put that character into an environment to give her context and story; and actually show that she's the hero and not the villain.

Quote

Quote from: Misj' on Wed 29/05/2013 12:41:11I actually applaud putting the monster's behaviour into context; and that includes an antagonist (the humans).

The assumption that a monster picture can't be interesting and dramatic without a human fighting it or fleeing from it (to exaggerate a bit) seems to me like a creative capitulation.

That's what I think about monsters having to be scary or nightmarish ;) - Anyway, I don't think the monster can't be interesting without humans (or other monsters, or potato-chips) fighting or fleeing to/from it. Fighting and fleeing (antagonists) isn't the main context that makes a monster a monster (I would rather say that threat and misunderstanding are). But I also didn't make the assumption you pointed out: I just said that I applaud people putting the monster's behaviour into context (story). And that this context includes an antagonist; because without the antagonist the character would behave differently and probably not monster-like (like a lion protecting her children).

But I like context and I like story. And creating a (back)story and context is part of my process when designing a character. The difference is, that in this case we also got to show it.

ps. That's also why I don't like 304's piece. It's a great monster, great use of light, technique, composition, etc. (and I like his final stance)...but there is no context...there is no environment (just a background). Good concept-art, limited story. :)

pps. A similar activity focusing on (high-res) concept-art for a game, and a low(er)-res interpretation thereof for in-game use would be great though. Maybe focusing on warriors (or priests)...

Quote from: Misj' on Wed 29/05/2013 21:30:11
That's what I think about monsters having to be scary or nightmarish ;)

I never said they did. Many entries were not, and that's fine. But I felt the strength of certain entries were their nightmarish monsters, and in those cases it seemed a shame not to push that aspect as much as possible.

Quote- Anyway, I don't think the monster can't be interesting without humans (or other monsters, or potato-chips) fighting or fleeing to/from it. Fighting and fleeing (antagonists) isn't the main context that makes a monster a monster (I would rather say that threat and misunderstanding are). But I also didn't make the assumption you pointed out: I just said that I applaud people putting the monster's behaviour into context (story). And that this context includes an antagonist; because without the antagonist the character would behave differently and probably not monster-like (like a lion protecting her children).

I still don't think I agree that an "antagonist" (which doesn't sound very different from "someone fighting/fleeing from the monster") is a necessary part of the context. A dragon sleeping on its pile of treasure is clearly still a monster (and a scene that can tell a story and work as an illustration); a troll cowering under a rock, hiding from the sun, is a monster (I guess you could call the sun the antagonist in that scene, but that's getting a little abstract for my taste); a sentient fungus spreading its tentacles of rot over the ceiling of an empty living room is a monster; a flock of sky bison (http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_bison) stampeding through the thunderclouds are monsters.

I have to admit, I feel the monster-and-human-for-reference composition has been overdone a bit in general. I was thinking of whether I should go in that direction in the beginning but felt that I wasn't in a position to create something really unique. So I tried for something well-explored (my initial reference images had two such setups).

Quote from: Misj' on Wed 29/05/2013 21:30:11
ps. That's also why I don't like 304's piece. It's a great monster, great use of light, technique, composition, etc. (and I like his final stance)...but there is no context...there is no environment (just a background). Good concept-art, limited story. :)

I have to disagree here (I sense a lot of disagreement lately).

First, for me, a great image does not have to have a story to work well, although it surely helps as it adds another layer to the piece.
Second, 304's piece has a lot of elements that raise questions which in turn build the story in the observer's mind (at least mine).

So there's this monster here in a destroyed and abandoned building. There is a summoning circle but nobody is around. What happened? The atmosphere is calm and serene, so obviously the house has not been destroyed by the incantation or the monster. There's a full moon, so maybe that triggered the portal in the summoners' absence. I think the image has a lot of tension between the calm and the aggressive. For me it marks the beginning of a story where a monster is called into an unsuspecting, sleeping world. Kind of disturbing really.

Great atmosphere and imagery here. Any further characters would completely destroy that. For me it's much more than a monster concept.
Damn, writing that makes me want to change my vote! ;)

Cerno, that's a better interpretation than mine, where the monster got drunk, smashed his glass and a hole in the wall, and is now standing around swaying and wondering what happened to his pants. (See, the real monster is alcohol!)

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 22:24:06
Cerno, that's a better interpretation than mine, where the monster got drunk, smashed his glass and a hole in the wall, and is now standing around swaying and wondering what happened to his pants. (See, the real monster is alcohol!)

(laugh) I was so wrong! (laugh)

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 22:14:19I guess you could call the sun the antagonist in that scene, but that's getting a little abstract for my taste)

That's exactly what I would call it (was thinking about a monster breaking down a door, but the sun with a troll would work as well). And there is nothing abstract there. If story is conflict (as some say), then the antagonist (opponent) - whether sentient or not - creates that story/conflict.

As for the other examples: I'm the one who drew a monster showering; she's cute and positive and still (clearly) a monster. Anyway, for my sketch I needed humans since they were part of the story I was telling (which was actually a love story); had it been another story, then there would probably be another source of conflict (opponent/antagonist) that was decidedly less human.

That being said: I applaud every advice that urges people to think/draw beyond the obvious.

I usually like making progress .gifs of my piece after I'm done (since I'm OCD about saving multiple drafts), and Selmiak posted his too, so I thought I'd share...

(http://i.imgur.com/dkUwbip.gif)

I don't want to debate too heavily on this, but my pic keeps getting mentioned, so here's my 2c:

I understand the idea that a picture should tell a story, but if we all drew a person standing there battling a monster or fleeing from a monster then every single piece in this activity would be "Man vs beast". I'm not saying this is a valid story to tell with a picture, but it's a very common story to tell, and if you look at the majority of entries in this you can see that this is the story they tell.

It doesn't really interest me to draw such an often drawn image, quite frankly. I believe an image can be far subtler and still tell a story. Perhaps mine doesn't convey much of a story - that's fine. But championing the idea that every picture needs a human element in order to tell a tale? I disagree wholeheartedly.

I do like Waheela's design a lot - it's creative, a unique perspective and a unique tale. The other images with monsters vs humans are all beautiful, but when I look at them I instantly think "Man vs beast". For me, a picture like cat's is just as visually interesting, because it's not trying to show a scenario I've already witnessed in thousands of other images. Frazetta is not the *only* source of inspiration. :)

What I like about Ben's entry and also miguel's is that they show emotion. The other pictures (including mine) show an attacking or passive aggressive monster while theirs shows pain and sorrow, most likely inflicted by humans (either by summoning them or chaining). They are both encouraging to think of a story of your own.

Quote from: ThreeOhFour on Thu 30/05/2013 06:09:24But championing the idea that every picture needs a human element in order to tell a tale? I disagree wholeheartedly.

As do I.

But I also wholeheartedly disagree that the human element should be removed if it's relevant to the story; which is Snarky's - if I exaggerate it a bit - statement when he said: "As a general comment, I think in almost all cases, introducing people into the picture has detracted from the impact of the monster." - I defended conflict and context (for the monster's behaviour) and indicated that an antagonist (in any way, shape, or form) is what defines a monster (a fire-element will react differently in a forest or near an ocean than in a volcano).

That brought me to your piece. I have no intention of putting it down, because it's a great piece on many levels, and I very nearly gave it my vote. But the reasons I choose not to, was because it lacked the contrast/context/story that I usually find in your work. The way I wanted to interpret this image was, that he used the portal to go home (in a post-apocalyptic world), and have a relaxing evening with a glass of wine (the conflict being the contrast between the monster and the very human-like behaviour); but I still don't know if that's anywhere near the story you wanted to tell.

I agree that a monster is defined in contrast to something else - indeed, nothing can be described until compared against something else - but I like to think we can work with preconceptions already in the viewer's mind as a reference point from which we can derive our "monstrous" definition from. Having to show things explicitly is something I find dull - you may as well label your image with "This is a monster, he's the bad guy because he is doing this." Even though with your concept you had a skewed perspective as to the protagonist/antagonist relationship, it's still made very black and white that there's a conflict.

Maybe it's just me, but I like a picture that leaves room for the viewer's imagination. I find it quite daring, personally - perhaps because my art teacher used to sit me in the corner with a book of Dali paintings out of frustration for my unwillingness to constantly draw cubes for hours, and thus I learned to love images which let you invent your own story (and also therefore failed the class). :D

Maybe we can finish this debate now, especially the part where we make sweeping judgments about how paintings should be. People chose different approaches and that's cool. Some focused almost entirely on monster design - which I guess adheres better to the workshop premises, and some painted a whole scene, where the monster wasn't even the centerpiece (like me, which is probably why I won't get any votes, hehe), but I think that's fine.

The important thing is that a lot of people participated and felt like they accomplished something. I'd happily run/partake in a new workshop any time, because I think it's an awesome educational tool.

Aw, I didn't mean to get drawn into debate, and I had fun too. I just get a little passionate sometimes :D

I'd like to do another workshop too, really. I draw all the time anyway, but it's very cute and nice to be doing it alongside a group of peers. :)

(Wrote this before the last two replies)

Misj', I disagree with you on two counts.

First, your suggestion that "an antagonist is what defines a monster." To me, a monster is something abnormal or alien, something outside our ken. It challenges our assumptions about what ought to exist, makes us go "what the hell?" That could be anything from an incredibly big dog to some Lovecraftian abomination, and it doesn't need to be antagonistic. A monster is a monster even if it's friendly (like Totoro), sleeping (like Smaug in its cave), or dead (like the carcass of an eight-trunked mammoth).

I'm not saying this is the one true definition of a monster, but I think it's at least as valid as yours, and does away with the need for an antagonist.

Second, I don't think antagonists are necessary to create an interesting picture that tells a story (monster-focused or not), or that any kind of drama or tension is best understood as a form of antagonism or conflict:

-E.T. reaching out his finger to touch Elliot's
-a mutant gazing up at the Lincoln memorial, with the post-apocalyptic ruins of D.C. as a backdrop
-Frankenstein's monster overseeing the assembly of his bride
-a winged bear licking her pups cubs clean
-the funeral pyre of an orc patriarch, mourned by his sons
-a gollum-creature fawning over his beautiful gem, his twisted features reflected in every facet
-a centaur playfully stalking his coy lover through a grove
-an ancient squid-creature passing on its wisdom to an awestruck pilgrim
-etc.

Even if you could frame these as conflicts against (extremely abstract) antagonists, I think it's reductive and tends to distort their point. By thinking of everything in terms of conflict, we're collapsing a wide range of distinct emotions and relationships together, thus limiting our range of thinking about what situations are interesting and worth portraying.

Quote from: Snarky on Thu 30/05/2013 10:35:45(Wrote this before the last two replies)

Misj', I disagree with you on two counts.

I'll continue this in the PM's, because I'm having too much fun.

But in short, the first disagreement depends on the definition of monster. To me it's behaviour not shape; which might be a bit weird considering that I created a 'monster' who's behaviour was good but who's shape was that of a monster. Others have commented that my monster was not really a monster, but the hero. So putting my words arguments as pure black-and-white rules would mean that I myself would have broken my own rules...which would make little sense :)

QuoteWhat I like about Ben's entry and also miguel's is that they show emotion.

, by Cat

My idea of monster is pretty simple. And I'm not going into "Staline was a monster" thing here. We are drawing fantastic non-existent creatures after all.
Monster = animal features and behaviours because they are different from humans. If there were no humans there would be no monsters.
A monster is a creature that does not fit. To us, humans, we feel repulse from their physical appearance. Repulse and fear. I think that, like any animal that senses fear, those monster will react and become dangerous.
I wanted to portray a illusion of despair in my monster face. Something that Ilych spotted straight away, maybe helped by the quotes I was revealing from S.Morrissey.
We, as the human eye (antagonists after all) are looking at a face in a monster body and feel different emotions. Maybe the first ones are of repulse but because we are allowed to stare we can find new dimensions to the monster's mind.

Ben's work has this same weirdness of effect. To me, in his piece, time has somehow stood still allowing us to take a closer look at the monster. I have the feeling, not feeling, fear! that in the very next minute something brutal may occur.

First we had 3 weeks of awesome artwork being made, and now we're having a short debate about what makes a monster, and the role of conflict in illustration? All in all, I think this went rather well! :D

Hats off to all the participants, it's been great to watch you all [in a creepy, silent way] make progress. I was especially impressed by Cerno's and selmiak's improvement at the final stretch - great job, but everyone did really well in the end and I think we all learned quite a bit from this workshop. We should do it again sometime, methinks! Cheers! :)

Sorry, I'm late but felt a need to respond.

Quote from: Misj' on Thu 30/05/2013 09:02:31

Quote from: ThreeOhFour on Thu 30/05/2013 06:09:24But championing the idea that every picture needs a human element in order to tell a tale? I disagree wholeheartedly.

As do I.

And as do I :)

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 22:24:06
No doubt adding humans can solve certain problems, and I don't mean to say it's always the wrong choice (I liked Mordalles tiny soldier figures, for examples). But I don't agree with the implication that it's the only way to solve them, or the best way.

It's neither the 'only' nor exactly the 'best' way - I don't see anybody implicating that. It's just a 'very easy' way and probably the most common one used in the industry, when it comes to illustrating the monsters (either book or game art). 'One of the best ways', I could say THAT.

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 22:24:06
Well, for example, one of selmiak's original reference images was Gollum sitting on a rock, which I think accomplishes a lot of storytelling very simply.

Why? Because you've seen the movie/read the books? :) There's some story behind most of these film/game creature references, you know. The story is working behind the pictures.
Besides, I for one didn't like the Jackson's Gollum - it accomplished nothing for me, really.

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 22:24:06
If it helps, maybe try to think about landscape photos and other pictures with no humans in the image. They can still have drama, conflict/contrast, and even tell a story. It might be more challenging, but that also means the solutions can be more interesting.

It doesn't help in this workshop's case. The solutions may or may not be more interesting. But it's not so much about looking for interesting solutions to surround the monster with. First and foremost it's about the monster itself. Humans, hands, cats, chains - they are props and secondary actors to the star of the picture.   

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 22:24:06
For storytelling and tension, there's a lot that can be done with posing/action, light, point of view and field of view, atmospheric perspective, and props/scenery.

Examples would do us some good here. Honestly, I think we could all benefit this. I know I would.   

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 22:24:06
(For a cheesy example, what if in your image, instead of the charging warrior with the spear, there was a terrified cat raising its back?)

Right ;) And that's the moment when your potential employer (in either game or book industry) says: "next"! Human being the protagonist, is the most common opponent for monster, like it or not. Human with whom the player/reader/viewer is supposed to identify with :)

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 22:24:06
I certainly wouldn't eliminate the light, no.

But you would eliminate the tension and drama by removing human. That would result with a less interesting picture.

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 22:24:06
Again the thinking seems to be, "Hmm... there's a problem with some aspect of this image. What to do? Oh, just stick a person in there! Problem solved!"

Pretty much. It's the easy solution. Also it's the one that adds an instant story & drama to the picture. The pros outweight the cons in any case. 

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 22:24:06
How about adding some smaller fishes for scale instead? Or adjusting those underwater plants to give a greater sense of scale? Make the dragon trail bubbles? Increasing the use of atmospheric perspective/water haze, and adding some particles? Putting in some underwater cliffs, or a wreck in the distance, a sunken city or something? (I get the impression cat ran out of time, and maybe she would have tried some of these options if she were to work more on it.)

Indeed, these are very nice solutions to the scale problem. But they aren't so good solutions for the lack of drama/tension. Human is an instant one. 2 in 1, you know, no need to add water ;) And most of us run out of time.
 
In my case, none of these solutions would work, since I wanted to show the monster waving his 'carniparases'/snakearms. Waving alone would be like kissing the air. And this wasn't supposed to be a rpg bestiary book picture or simple piece of game concept art (otherwise, my b/w "BEFORE & AFTER" sketch would do the job), but something a bit more elaborate, descriptive.

There's also one very important factor of adding human that we were saying very little about so far.

We are humans after all. We read, watch, play stories, in which human/humanoid is common. The human most often feature as protagonist, and is a majority in most stories. If your next AGS game's protagonist will be a fish or a rock, that's cool. But most of the games are crowded by humans, like it or not. So for some of us this workshop was also a good opportunity to practice drawing humans.  Human is certainly the most commonly used game monster :)   

From technical point of view, it is much more challenging to accurately paint a human than most of other subjects. Small fishes? Underwater plants? Particles? Bubbles? Technically, child stuff. Even wrecks and sunken cities are easier to paint than humans :) For me, that was an excellent opportunity to practice anatomy 'in motion'. And a one that was much more challenging, in technical terms.     

Quote from: Snarky on Wed 29/05/2013 22:24:06
My personal opinion is that exploring some of these options could, in most of these examples, have led to more interesting solutions than just sticking a person in there (which starts to feel a bit like a cop-out once everyone starts doing it, and IMO blunts the effectiveness).

Maybe yes. Or maybe not. Or maybe some of us didn't have time :) Like, quite a lot of us. As I said, it's one of the easiest ways to solve most of the problems. Also, the problem of a lonely monster. It's also a well-rooted, classical one. In the spirit of forefathers of concept art and their forefathers, and all that;)

It doesn't blunt the effectiveness, since I won't be including other people's work in my portfolio. After the workshop ends, everyone goes home, holding his/her (monstrous) child by the hand (if it has hands:)). The workshop's main purpose wasn't 'gathering many monsters in one place', otherwise it could be named 'AGS monster mittens' ;) It wasn't also the scariest/ugliest monster contest, otherwise it could be named Monster Olympia;) It's main purpose was learning.


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I'd also agree with the Misj' critique of Ben's painting. While I love the atmosphere, the details, technical execution  of the piece, for me it lacks a clear story. The somehow sad/melancholic look of the hunched monster leaves me with too much questions to answer. Is he a dethroned lord of some castle, or did he just get kicked out from a monster bar? Is he pictured remembering his demonic lover or prey, or is he lost in this calm deserted place, looking for a portal to bring him back home/hell? He's naked, looking so vulnerable (for a monster). The moon above adds to the reflective, melancholic mood of the piece.

As I said, I like it, but there's too much questions concerning the 'main actor'. Too much for an out-of-context, illustration, utility piece (that's functioning without a text description).

@ Ben
On a side note: I don't want to sound too prim and proper, but in my opinion showing monster's willy in your piece is a mistake. Since it's not exactly a nude act piece, and the nakedness isn't the main theme (nor is supposed to play any important part), I'm for covering/obscuring the private parts here (well, almost any game/book publisher would be because of the non-classical (ancient) take on nudity). For me it's a purely functional issue. The willys (and coochies and sometimes breasts even) in art have a certain quality: they most often steal the scene, obscuring the other - sometimes more important elements - in the process. That's the case with your picture, too. 

To be perfectly honest, my intent for showing genitalia was multi-purposed. It was intended as a bit of humour, as I always like to draw with a bit of humour, it was intended to give realism to the monster - animals have means for reproduction, it's as simple as that, and when I see humanoid creatures without means for reproduction it looks quite silly to me, and finally it was meant as a bit of a playoff of the archetypal Frazetta style image, wherein the beast is contrasted against an unbelievably beautiful adonis of a man or woman, no doubt to emphasise the monstrous nature of the creature through juxtaposition, but also makes a lot of such fantasy art embarrassingly sexualized, through the vulnerable poses of the barely-clad women to the dominant poses of the tanned and steroid enhanced men - none of whom are seemingly old, fat, lanky or awkwardly proportioned at all.

I totally understand your point, basically, but stick with my decision. :)

I agree with Ben here. Placing a random object there just to hide his genitalia Austin-Powers-style would be ridiculous.

Haha, all right :) Now after you've said that, I understand your need of humour and playing off the stereotypes.   

I was aiming, on the contrary, for the more or less arche-/stereotypical, 'industry based point-of-view' depiction. That's where my criticism comes from. That's why I went more or less Frazetta route.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about these stereotypes being childish and about mass-sexualization of entertainment industry though. Well, stereotypes...in films, books, games, comics, in any type of media...  It's a wide subject to discuss, worth a separate thread.

@Cat
Nobody's talking Austin Powers style. I'm talking Frazetta style obscuring. Check out how he does it (see Andail's link). BTW, in rare cases when Frazetta shows full frontal nudes it doesn't always pay off, IMO. But I don't know, probably those 'border' pieces that bug me a little were intended as (s)excapist fantasy style illustrations for the likes of Playboy or something :) So maybe there was some purpose in showing these bits, after all.

EDIT:
I've drawn my monster's willy without any special cover. I didn't use the warrior's weapon or piece of rock to hide it, right? ;) It doesn't draw attention to itself. I understand that Ben was going for fun and I'm 100% ok with it :)   

Smello! The results are in, and the winners announced here:
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48324.msg636456514#msg636456514

A fantastically good round, I'd say, so thanks a lot for participating and let's do it again soon!