Diamonds in the Rough - AWARD

[m0ds]

Oh Alkis with your Herculean Effort style avatar :p

Yes the thread has gone rather off topic.

Yes, but we're discussing a game we can't even get our hands on yet in the completed games forum, remember I want you to succeed, and I think you are genuinly limiting yourself by not offering it online, that's all!

[alkis21]

Some fair, honest & hard questions Snarky. I'll do my best to answer them.

Let me start by saying that although we're certainly not a well-established company yet, Atropos Studios is much more than "some guy on the AGS Forum". You have every reason to believe that it's just a web site and a PC, but I'd like you to know that we do have an office in Athens, and all the paperwork and other bureaucratic necessities are as legitimate as that of every other company. All the people who worked on the game signed contracts (Nikolas can confirm that). Our address, phone number and tax information will be clearly stated in the invoices.

As you know, your private data is protected by law. If we mishandle a customer's private data, we will suffer the consequences. Sure, people may not sue but it's about the worst negative publicity I can think of. Yes I admit I'm human and I have taken part in Internet fights as much as the next guy, but I'm not stupid. I have no intention of committing professional suicide by sending a dead hamster to a dissatisfied customer, tempting as the idea might be.

You say that my game is not in your "must buy" list. Well, I'd be very surprised if it was at this early stage. After a month or two, reviews will be published and people will give feedback in forums. Your and everyone else's decision will be much easier then.

The DVD cover was designed by a professional. It will be printed in a factory, and so will the CD. It is certainly not a burned CD with a sticker.

Let me make it clear that I did not write any of the above to change your mind or to convince you to buy my game. I'm merely replying to your questions for you and anyone else who cares to know.

Thank you for your wishes.

[Snarky]

No, those are good answers, Alkis. Thanks! That you've set up an official business does actually mitigate some of my concerns (I guess I'm not going to actually verify that, but I'll take yours and Nikolas's word for it), and I'm happy to hear the boxes and stuff are going to be factory-printed.

The physical shipping is still a drawback for me, but if everyone seems to love your game and the box art isn't going to be a blight on my shelf, I guess I might be persuaded to bite the bullet. Still, with a download there wouldn't be an issue in the first place...

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I think that having both physical and virtual (downloadable) versions of your product are a great idea because it covers all the bases, but in the end it's your decision and people really should abide by it and either buy  the game (or not buy it) without excessive complaint.  It's your creation and you're free to do with your game whatever the hell you please, and I and other people need to respect that.

As for the game itself:

I played your demo and found it quite interesting plotwise.  I'm almost concerned that you're giving away too much in the demo with the main character's long exposition, however.  It's your call, though!

Good luck with your first commercial release!

[alkis21]

I'm almost concerned that you're giving away too much in the demo with the main character's long exposition, however.

Trust me, I reveal much less than you think.

The introduction is indeed kind of long, but necessary because I want the player to get in the 'mood' of the story and learn the basics quite early. It is not indicative of the length of all the dialogs in the game, in fact the only long dialogs in DITR are in the introduction and the ending.

Regarding the box/download issue, I'm going to say this last thing and then I hope we can drop the subject now that both sides have presented their arguments. I don't think anyone who buys the DVD will regret it. Granted, it's no Infocom package with a map, a comic book and a T-shirt, but what is, these days? Hopefully it will make a nice souvenir that you can show your friends a few years from today saying something like "This was Polyrakis' first commercial game, before he became famous" or "This was Polyrakis' only commercial game. The dumb bastard thought he was going to make money out of it and went bankrupt. He jumped off a building as he couldn't afford a gun, which gave it some value after all. It's currently going for $1300 on eBay".

[Dave Gilbert]

I'll just chime in with my experience here.  75% of my game purchases are from online sales.  The remaining percentage who want it on CD are a minority, but significant enough to make the option worthwhile.

Anyway, good luck with this Alkis!  I'll definitely give it a whirl when I find the time.

[tube]

75% of my game purchases are from online sales.  The remaining percentage who want it on CD are a minority, but significant enough to make the option worthwhile.

The > 10 dollar price difference and no extras to speak of (a standard jewel case containing the game and a soundtrack CD) might have something to do with this. I'd expect to get at least a proper box and a printed manual for such a price difference. Not that your games aren't well worth the money, no offense intended.

It is true that Alkis would in all probability sell more games if he didn't limit his methods of distribution, but that's his decision and I find all the bitching and moaning in this thread rather childish.

[Nikolas]

One thing to consider Dave is that if you didn't have the download option, then the box sales would proably be up 50% or more... Because there are many people who prefer one from another, but don't have huge problems in getting something physical...

Anyways, let's way for this game to be released finally... Good thing that all this talk is prior to the actual release of the game.

[Emerald]

One thing to consider Dave is that if you didn't have the download option, then the box sales would proably be up 50% or more... Because there are many people who prefer one from another, but don't have huge problems in getting something physical...

Well, the simple fact is:

Sales with one option < Sales with both options.

Maybe it wont be significant, but it's fairly evident that you'll lose money by not including both options - at least eventually (after about 3-6 months, it's safe to assume all the "I prefer CDS" folks who are going to buy the game, would have, so you could add the option to download then, to ensure you squeeze the most money out of everyone, but that seems sort of heartless...)


Now, I don't mean to 'bitch', but the fact of the matter is, there will be many people (including me) who will be disappointed by the lack of a download. It just seems like an unnecessary shame.

[SSH]

I think this debate should be moved into an Adventure Chat thread rather than hijacking Alkis's thread...

[GarageGothic]

Perhaps the entire thread could just be moved and renamed, and a new completed game announcement posted when the game is actually available for purchase?

[alkis21]

It's OK. Perhaps I was wrong to post this thread before release, but it's customary to announce when a game goes gold and I thought it would be rude to say it in every other forum but this one. It's just that in AGS, a "Completed Game Announcement" and a "Released Game Announcement" is almost always one and the same, which was not the case with DITR.

[m0ds]

but that's his decision and I find all the bitching and moaning in this thread rather childish.

There's no bitching. People are saying they want to download it, Alkis is saying no, so people are saying they won't buy it. I think you'll find it's more a case of trying to persuade them but they're not willing to accept it. Also the fact Alkis is getting stressed that we're debating the download issue is more childish than the rest of us who are merely suggesting it. No-one has said do that or die so I really don't know where these "childish" arguments are coming from, apart from this one, perhaps. I'll add in my real 2 cents. If this game is downloadable I'll probably offer it as a prize in something I do in the near future, but if it isn't, I probably won't. I don't buy AGS games myself, I'm afraid, but I like to know its easy to buy for friends or other people. Finally, we have every right to discuss this. Telling us your game has gone to press is a discussion for AGS chat, not the completed games forum.

At the end of the day I'd be willing to bet developers have more success with downloads than hard copies. Whichever way you go is fine, but if I'm going to be asked to buy this game then I have every right to let these people know why I will not buy it And once people can actually get a hold of this game I will stop debating & let you do as you please. It's fine to distribute it as you want it but it's also fine to debate why it might not be so successful. Dave G has released figures and Mike Doak is making sure his next game is sold online, because he's been there and knows the hardships of trying to sell hard-copies.

I can totally respect that Alkis would prefer to distribute it entirely as hard copies because yes, that is a very cool thing to do. But for a company who obviously want to continue I would at the same time believe that maxising your profits for your next production would be of upmost importance. But the feeling I get is that you just want to keep things nostalgic, and not worry about any money making. That's great, but how will that develop your company? Reputation points are hard to come by in this field in this day & age.

Still, best of luck, and I AM wishing you the best of luck; I just don't quite get your "hard copies only" logic which I'd be glad to have a better explanation of, tis all

[cosmicr]

the only reason I dont like buying stuff online (apart from ebay and amazon) is that most sites require you to sign up with an account first. I hate having a million different accounts on a million different sites all with different passwords - its all too much! If a site has the option to buy with out signing up first then I'd do it.

A suggestion to alkis21. You said you were a fan of games in boxes. Will you be printing the minimum system requirements on the bottom corner of the box much like they used to in the old days with a big blue sticker that says 'VGA' and wraps around the side with '486dx or better - maths coprocessor required, etc). That would be cool.

ps I too thought that goes 'gold' implied that you had sold 50,000 copies.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

One last thing I forgot to mention -

I only like buying boxed stuff if I can walk into my local store and see it on the shelf, or on a bin. Any chance I'll see Diamonds in the Rough on my local store, seeing as it's going the direction mainstream games go? If that were the case, I WOULD go into my store and buy them.

Hmmm, net-sale only and box-only offers, that's the main contradiction I kept forgetting to mention. And with that I think I've said it all, so I'll shut up.

And even though I seem to have opened this particular can of worms, hey, I wish you the best. I just hope you don't find that doing it just the way you want it, regardless of many other things, and with no other possible alternatives, backfires on you. Many a game, film, book, etc has gone down with its creator shrieking "But you don't understand, it's my vision, it's exactly what I wanted to DO!!!".

EDIT - Oh, you do know that when people can't buy things the way they want, or own it as fully as they feel they should, they turn to piracy, don't you?

[alkis21]

but that's his decision and I find all the bitching and moaning in this thread rather childish.

There's no bitching. People are saying they want to download it, Alkis is saying no, so people are saying they won't buy it. I think you'll find it's more a case of trying to persuade them but they're not willing to accept it. Also the fact Alkis is getting stressed that we're debating the download issue is more childish than the rest of us who are merely suggesting it.

{SNIPPED}

I just don't quite get your "hard copies only" logic which I'd be glad to have a better explanation of, tis all

I never offered a full explanation because I didn't want people to accuse me of what you are exactly accusing me now: that I'm somehow trying to persuade them to buy my game. I don't see how calling me childish and throwing accusations is helping your argument. You're insulting me because of something someone else said, is that fair in your opinion?

I'm offering a product. You are the potential customer, you have the power to buy or ignore. I'm not going to try and persuade anyone. If people say they don't want to buy it unless there's a download option, I totally respect that. I do have my reasons for going with that option, but ask yourself, do you honestly care to hear them?

Do you want to hear about budget exceeds? As I don't have the technical knowledge to do a hack proof pay-to-download web site, I'd have to hire someone to do it for me.

Do you want to hear about me not being able to decide what the price difference between the boxed product and the digital product should be? Tube just told Dave that he thought the price difference of his game was too great (for the record, I think the soundtrack CD totally justified it).

Do you want to hear about me being unsure on how many boxed products I should order if both options were offered as I didn't want to be left with too many unsold boxes? Do you want me to tell you the price difference between ordering 100, 1000 or 10,000 copies in a factory?

Do you even want me to get started on how many months it took me to get the necessary legal papers for a sell-by-mail business, and how many more it would take me to get the formalities for digital sales over with?

I could go on and on... but my personal experience is that people don't want to hear any of these things, and why should they? They just want to play games, not be bored with my problems. This reminds me of a dreadful discussion I had in another forum, where people demanded to know why I wouldn't correct Jason's walking animation. So I took the time to explain to them what that would mean in production costs. You know what they said to me? "What do we care? If you don't have enough money, it's your problem. You're boring us. Go away".

Telling us your game has gone to press is a discussion for AGS chat, not the completed games forum.

I already said I was wrong about that. Do I have to kneel and beg everyone's pardon? This is a "completed games" forum, my game was completed, so I posted. If I was wrong, a moderator could correct me.

And I'm not "getting stressed that we're debating the download issue". I just thought it would be nice if people wanted to talk about the game itself, as in ask questions about what in my opinion makes the game good, what are its main features, how it is different and how it is similar to Other Worlds, that sort of stuff. You know, concentrate on what we have rather than what it would be nice to have. This discussion is no more helpful than a "why isn't DITR in full 3D" debate.

Somebody needs to explain to me what I am doing wrong in this forum, I don't post that often but whenever I do there seems to be a finger pointing at me.

To answer cosmicr's question, here is a (small size) sample of the cover:



To the next posters: If you are going to add yet another accusatory post, at least please take the time to explain what I did to provoke it.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

This reminds me of a dreadful discussion I had in another forum, where people demanded to know why I wouldn't correct Jason's walking animation. So I took the time to explain to them what that would mean in production costs. You know what they said to me? "What do we care? If you don't have enough money, it's your problem. You're boring us. Go away".

Oh boy.

Thing is, as harsh as they were, they were also kinda right, you know. The maker shows something, the players give feedback. The maker says why he can't fix something they feel needs fixing, listing money as the cause.

The players are fully entitled to disregard any incarnation of the game in future, because they've had first-hand experience that the maker does not listen to the players.

Here's the tough part - even if that's totally not true and a gross generalization, it's still what they've experienced, so it's perfectly valid.

In a sense, it's not unlike this whole discussion right here, where you seemed to wait until things got big to explain your motives. Yes, we do care, didn't you get it from the very first post where I said I was sad I wouldn't get the game? Do you think I react like that to every game I see on the net? And if people didn't care, would they be writing the long posts they have been?

I just thought it would be nice if people wanted to talk about the game itself, as in ask questions about what in my opinion makes the game good, what are its main features, how it is different and how it is similar to Other Worlds, that sort of stuff.

Ah, so you wanted some discussion related to the game that isn't out yet, or to the demo you didn't link to, available in the site you didn't link to. Or a discussion of a totally unrelated game. Or questions about the features you didn't talk about.

EDIT - BTW, I have to say I admire your attitude, alkis, up until the previous post where you seem to have lost some of your cool (understandable if you feel accused, I'm not sure you *were* accused but if you felt accused then why shouldn't you lose some of your cool?). Calm, quiet, dignified. Always a big plus.

[alkis21]

Thing is, as harsh as they were, they were also kinda right, you know.

OF COURSE they were right. Just like you are all right to want a download option. I never said the opposite. I just have trouble coping with the idea that no matter how I try to explain my reasons I seem to be making matters worse.

EDIT - BTW, I have to say I admire your attitude, alkis, up until the previous post where you seem to have lost some of your cool (understandable if you feel accused, I'm not sure you *were* accused but if you felt accused then why shouldn't you lose some of your cool?). Calm, quiet, dignified. Always a big plus.

I never lost my cool. Just my appetite, but as I can definitely lose a few pounds that's not a big problem.

[Nikolas]

There is no need for an explanation, everyone has the right to select what they buy and how they buy it. No worries!

and

Let me make it clear that I did not write any of the above to change your mind or to convince you to buy my game. I'm merely replying to your questions for you and anyone else who cares to know.

I'm somehow not convinced that Alkis is explaining the reasons behind the boxed version only choice are here to persuade people!

[ThreeOhFour]

Congratulations on finishing the game, Alkis and team - I'll put this one on the list of games to buy when I can spare the money .

I wish you much success with your sales and hope to see you developing more titles in the future.