Eternally Us

[buddha]

Very well made and great atmospheres you guys created in some of these 'rooms'. Loved the rain/snow etc fx. Good pacing, explaining at the end didn't bother me.

thumbs up!

[Leon]

How beautiful again..... great visual effects, nice transitions within the room. Beautiful voices.
Congrats to all who participated in this.

What annoyed me a bit was the predictability in the puzzles. But that didn't take anything from the beautifully told story...

What I also found strange is ...

Spoiler

The puzzle with the bucket: You pull the rope and can't get it down because you're not heave enough. Fair. But when you pick up the stones, you still can't. Only after they're in the bucket you can get it down.. What's the weight difference?

[close]

And of course.. I have to report a typo.. ;-)

Spoiler

It's the last one (#3) in the credit list: Grostesque = Grotesque

[close]

[Wesray]

I enjoyed the game a lot and didn't expect otherwise with the talent involved.

Graphics are excellent, I particularily loved the autumn forest with the falling leaf effect. In general the whole game had a very polished feeling, from little animations for every action to fitting sound effects and the voice acting.

Although the game wasn't about puzzles, what was there was challenging enough, considering each puzzle was contained to a single room.

As for the story, it was touching of course, but I felt the outcome was predictable. Making the bulk of the game more subtle/ambiguous might have heightend the impact of the ending for me.

Minor quibbles aside, great work, everyone involved!

[Kweepa]

For those who say the ending was predictable:

Spoiler

Did you really pick up that the five "rooms" were the five stages of grief?
If so, bravo.

[close]

[Merte]

For those who say the ending was predictable:

Spoiler

Did you really pick up that the five "rooms" were the five stages of grief?
If so, bravo.

[close]

The people who didn't pick that up can't read.

[Intense Degree]

Beautiful game, nice idea, generally great voice acting and good soundtrack (maybe not quite stylistically consistent but that is nitpicking!). Nice weather effects and good solid scripting (at least in appearence and effect! )

The only criticism I have (and this is meant as 100% constructive) is that the dialogue does verge on the pretentious side here and there, esp. gargoyles(?) and trees. This may just be my opinion but I find that often simpler is better.

Great job Ben & Calin!

@Merte - I think Steve meant anyone who picked it up before the "reveal" at the end, and I add my "Bravo!" to that.

[GarageGothic]

Steve:

Spoiler

Yup, don't remember where I first picked up on it but was pretty sure that my observation was correct when I got to the swamp (then again, I've been fascinated by the stages of grief concept ever since watching All That Jazz). I don't think it spoiled anything though - it was pretty clear that Amber would come to some kind of insight and learn to cope with her loss, but until I saw the gravestone in the final screen I wasn't sure if Fio was dead or it was just a (somewhat melodramatic) reaction to a simple breakup.

Whether it's predictable or not, this isn't an M. Night Shyamalan movie (thank god!). It's perfectly enjoyable even if you've guessed the "twist" - possibly even more so. In fact you probably get much more emotionally involved with Amber if you realize it early on (or when replaying the game), than you would experiencing it as a pure fantasy story about a love interest spirited away by supernatural beings.

My only point of criticism is the final labeling of the stages which (besides robbing me of the opportunity to show off my cleverness on the forums ) I feel lessens the emotional impact of the game. By revealing the underlying structural concept, in the middle of the grand climax nonetheless, you also turn everything we've felt intuitively so far into a clear intellectual construct. Instead of letting the final moments sink in and allowing us to reflect upon Amber's spiritual journey, we're given the answer sheet and spend the credit sequence mentally backtracking through the game thinking "oh, I see, yeah that was pretty clever" rather than pondering how this emotional roller coaster ride affected us and what we'll be taking with you from the experience.

[close]

That aside, my overall reaction to this game was "Wow, fucking wow!". This is very likely the best MAGS game I ever played. Actually it makes me feel better about not making the deadline myself, because no way I could or would want to compete with artistry like this.

To echo what everybody else have been saying: Awesome voicework, Ben's most beautiful art so far, lovely particle effects and most excellent writing. It takes amazing talent to write this kind of dialog without being melodramatic - especially when acted out - so kudos!

[mintymint]

A very nice game!! for me, this is Ben's best artwork so far..

and i have to say those rain/snow/leaves falling effects might be one of the best particle effects in ags games, it's really blend with the background which i like it so much..

nice story and music.. and of course, great voice acting!! well done Ben & Calin.. and anyone involved in this game.. 

[Calin Leafshade]

Hooray time for me to defend my writing!... again.

Do you *really* think it was over the top?

I mean, granted, it is a little dramatic in places but it is supposed to be.

I can fully appreciate McCarthy being over the top.. because it was but to me this is just standard metaphor.. it's just writing.
It's not Keats or anything but ya know..

The gargoyles might possibly be considered a little purple but they were largely inspired by Samuel Beckett's 'Play' so i, somewhat consider it homage but I don't possibly see how the trees can be considered so. They were cryptic, not pretentious.


As for the ending,

Spoiler

it was never supposed to be a huge secret.. It was supposed to be hinted at along the way and I kinda thought people would appreciated that Fio was dead by about the 3rd room.

The reason I included the explicit labels was to increase the smug factor for the player. If it were a book or a play I would probably not have been so forthcoming but games are different and giving  sense of achievement to the player is very important.

The player didnt 'win' this game by getting to the end.

[close]

[AngelicCharon]

I've been mulling over whether or not to post something about this for about a day or two now, and considering it comes up far too much in my conversations with others (by their choosing, not mine), I figured I'd finally put some of my opinions and thoughts of this game down in text, on the thread.

Please note, these are merely MY opinions, MY thoughts on things, MY constructive criticisms.  By looking at this thread, I'm sure most of you, a great majority, will not agree.

That's fine.  You're entitled to your opinion.  That said, because our opinions likely differ, please do not tell me that I'm wrong.  It's my opinion.  You have yours.  This isn't me trying to convert anyone to my opinion, I just want to express myself, and hopefully some of the constructive criticisms I post can be used to better the future creations of the creators.

If anyone has issue with anything I say in this post, feel free to PM me.  I'm more than happy to discuss any of these points at length.  In fact, I would even welcome discourse directly with the creators, should they deem me worthy of their time.

Anyways, enough of the preface, let's get down and dirty.  Now, as you've probably guessed, I am going to write a lot.  If you don't like reading, skip my post now.  Please.  Because this is going to be, in most likelihood, a long post. (yes, I save my words for posts like these, which is why I don't have many posts)

So, I'm not really sure where to start with my opinions, so I'll just start from literally the very beginning.
Off the bat, overall, regardless of the 'scene' in the game, the artwork by Ben304, was utterly fantastic.

I want to point that out, even though everyone else did, because personally I feel that the greatest part of Eternally Us is the artwork.  I find it to be very colourful, very lively, the animations are delightful, and every 'screen' is a visual treat.  A 'sexual escapade for the eyes', as it were.  Now, I realize that I'm heaping loads of praise on the artwork, and maybe it's not without its flaws.  HOWEVER, even as an artist, if there were any flaws I didn't immediately notice them, due to how well everything artistically was put together.  Anyone can nitpick artwork, but I for one am not one of those people.  I find if something looks good, it looks good, and generally, that's fine.  (Ben, your art and style look quite above just 'good' or 'fine').  Oh, also the logo?  Nice touch.

Audio wise, I really have no complaints here either.  Why?  Because I don't compose music.  Because I don't compose music, I really only know what I like, not necessarily what is good.  That said, the music in Eternally Us, to me, seems fitting for most of the scenes.  It's appropriate, has good volume levels, and due to the nature of the game, isn't overly catchy, or memorable.  Which I appreciate, because if it was, that would miss the entire point of what you were trying to do with the game.  I would never sit down and listen to the Eternally Us soundtrack (hopefully you're not planning one), because I feel that the music really shines in conjunction with the scenes its in.  This is not a negative comment, for anyone looking for something negative in my words.  I sincerely do appreciate the fact the soundtrack is suited only towards the scenes its in, and only while playing the game, because that shows that care was taken to craft the tracks specifically for the game, and not for generic purposes or easy listening.

Oh, as for voice acting?  Generally well done, although a number of the male voices sounded far too similar to each other, and I did end up surprised that it was three different people, which speaks muchly to each of their ranges.  Kudos to them.  And both VAs for Amber and Fio did a bang up job with what they had to work with.

So you're all likely wondering why I'm writing so much, and why I feel my opinions differ, when they seem to be quite similar so far to everyone else.  This is where the real meat and potatoes of Eternally Us comes to the forefront.  I'm talking about the story.  The writing.  The progression.  The puzzles.

While I understand that the common opinion (at least in this thread), seems to be that Eternally Us can do no wrong, and is an emotional journey, I will be one of the few (if not only) to differ in opinion on that.  While I can certainly understand the journey, and did so while playing, I feel it fails to create an appropriate emotional tie to allow it to reach the intended reaction that the authors desired.

POTENTIAL SPOILERS...

Spoiler

Allow me to explain.  From least irksome to me, to most irksome.

Least irksome: Puzzles.
Why do I find them irksome at all?: I'll be honest.  There is a clever one or two.  The squirrel and the acorn?  I found that to be clever.  Most of the others?  Well, they fit the scenes well enough.  However there was one that I feel was wasted potential, and leads into one of the things that I found most irksome about the game.

The bird feeding puzzle.

Likely not surprising to some people, although my reasoning may differ.   MY reasons for finding the bird feeding puzzle irksome are two fold.  The first of these, regards the 'puzzle' itself.  Why is it irksome?  Well, because it's kind of unnecessary.  What do I mean?  I mean there's 4 options, only 2 are valid, and unlike any of the other puzzles in the game, it doesn't quite relate to the scene.  It becomes a puzzle that some people may struggle on, if they don't realize the crumbs need to be tossed at the path, but beyond that there is only one solution, and it doesn't further the character development of Amber and Fio.  I find a puzzle of trial and error, where you have A, B, C, and D, but C and D have no use whatsoever, and any combination of A, C, D or B, C, D will not yield results, doesn't help anything.  Granted, that's a puzzle design irk.  And my views on puzzle design are likely different than others.  So, that's likely REALLY personal opinion.  Still, to me there's an even greater reason I found it irksome/bothersome...

And that reason also ties into what I found most irksome about the entire experience.

Most irksome: Lack of character development/attachment/emotional tying to characters.

What's that AC?  No character development?  No emotional ties?  What are you talking about AC?  That's crazy talk.

You know, you're all right.  I am crazy.  I'm the sort of crazy that happens to enjoy a well told story.  In my opinion, I feel the authors were aiming to create a story that takes the spectator on a emotional journey through the stages of loss.  Where the player starts thinking they have something or someone they care about, and then working through the various stages of loss until they find acceptance.  In turn, they wanted to add the twist, of having the player wonder what exactly they had lost, thusly revealing in all its glory, that Fio had in fact died, and had been dead the entire time.  Most player likely realized Fio was dead well before the end, but Fio's death wasn't the focus.  The journey of loss ending in acceptance was.

Now, while I applaud what they were aiming to do, I feel it fell short of their goal.  Again, as I've just established with my 'crazy talk', you all likely disagree.  I understand.  It's fine.  You don't need to remind me, or even explain your point of view.  I can clearly see your point of view, however I don't share it.

So, how did it fail?  Why would I say that it failed to do what it set out to do?  Now, I could be wrong in so far as what they were trying to do.  I could be.  Based upon everyone's reactions however, I'm thinking I'm not.  That said, and out of the way, we fail to have any sort of insight into either Amber or Fio before the wonderful journey begins.  The most we learn before the 'game' or journey, or emotional rollercoaster, or whatever you want to call it starts, is that, unless I'm remembering this wrong, Fio likes the smell of cut grass.  I also, unless mistaken, got the impression that Fio had some degree of compassion for small animals.  That's about it.  Oh, and the vague impression that Fio and Amber knew each other.  Whether they were long time friends, lovers, enemies, rivals, sisters, mother/daughter, aliens from the planet Wazoo, neighbours, cousins, what have you, we never really get a full impression of until the end.  But I'm not at the end yet.  I'm still at the beginning, so bear with me here.

Let's back up a moment, faithful reader.  Remember when I spoke about how the bird puzzle bothered me?  Well, it also bothered me because it was a perfect, prime, ripe opportunity for us to learn more about Amber and Fio.  To get to know them.  To learn what makes them so close.  Two things that would have 'helped that' here.  One?  Maybe having three or four 'similar' scenes of them in the park, talking to each other.  Maybe some dialogue options.  Let us get used to the characters, then toss her being gone at us.  We'll have been attached by that point.  Emotionally invested.

Two?  Okay, don't do those scenes, but why can't Fio and Amber talk while Amber is throwing around the bread crumbs?  I think that would've been a great way for us to become more emotionally invested in the characters.  Maybe they just reminisce.  Maybe they talk about any number of things.  It'd still make us more involved.  The longer you'd try to solve the bread crumb puzzle, the more you'd learn about the characters, almost as if trying to spend more time to Fio.  To hold on to her as long as you can.

To me, that first scene was almost a wasted opportunity to get the player/viewer/reader REALLY attached/involved/tied to the characters on some level, be it emotional or not.  In fact, had the writing merely lent itself to providing us a better glimpse into the deep relationship between Fio and Amber PRIOR to Fio disappearing, I feel that (at least for me) I would have been more emotionally invested throughout the journey, and may have felt something for the characters, as opposed to, well, nothing.

Other wasted opportunities for furthering the ties, came in each scene.  In no scene are we treated to any reasoning for Amber to search after Fio, except that they were close.  Or something like that.  In fact, nothing is really mentioned about their relationship or why they were so close - even the snippet we get of their relationship at the end doesn't serve enough information to us.  The information we get is too little, too late, even if nice.  I mean, sure, nice to know they had a sleepover, and there was a star shaped flashlight.  It didn't bring me any closer to caring about either character though.  

In every scene, Amber seems to fight so hard after Fio, one way or another, but, again...no dialogue explaining it.  No, "I have to find Fio!  We grew up together!  Etc. etc. etc."  Just, "Need to find her, where is she?  Help me find her."

Which brings me to a minor thing.  The whole 'non-interactive' Amber going through the door and following what I assume was the character 'Hurt'.  After thinking it through, I find that it was only necessary for it to be non-interactive because the player, at that point, has no reason to follow.

Hear me out.  We know nothing of Fio.  Or much of Amber.  There's an open door.  As a game player, we might follow due to it being the only exit.  Otherwise?  Not really.  There's no reason or context to 'follow 'Hurt'.  There's not reason or context to travel in the random door from thin air.  At least to me.  If there was more to attach the viewer to the characters, then going through that door would feel natural.  If there was more character development/progression in each scene, learning about why Amber would CARE so much about Fio, and why we the player should care about Amber and her plight.  Not to mention her ever increasing journey.

Is some of the dialogue pretentious, flowery, over-wordy?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  It doesn't bother me.  I know what the writer is going for.  Problem is, it almost seems like the author is trying TOO hard to let us know that they're smart.  That they know how to write something.  What this does in the case of Eternally Us, is it robs the spotlight from time that could be used to show us more of the characters.  Instead, it highlights the situation.  The situation has little weight without insight into the characters.  We (and I guess I mean I) don't feel involved with the characters, so working through the stages is like looking at a series of postcards.  Overly pretty, interesting to interact with, but it's like the backs are blank and waiting to be filled with personality.  

I could keep typing, and could keep providing ideas for alternate ways of going about things, but I don't want to make this long post EVEN longer.

[close]

END OF SPOILERS.

...yep.  I wrote a lot.  Thank you if you read the whole thing.  I did cut it short, but hopefully my points and views were made, and you can understand where I'm coming from.  If not, that's fine.  I respect you and your opinions, your views.  I think everyone who has played this has some sort of opinion on it, and I think that's a good thing.  Hopefully the creators will learn from this experience, and whatever they do next will build upon this, and become even better by sheer virtue of improving on the story/interactions.

So, yeah.  Wrote a lot.  You just read a lot if you got here.  It's just kind of unfortunate, that in a way, you've likely learned more about me, my opinions, my views, maybe even my writing and thoughts, than we as players learned about Amber and Fio throughout the entire play through of Eternally Us.  Which is unfortunate.  I really wanted to get to know Amber and Fio.  They seemed like a pleasant pair.

P.S. BTW, I don't like the smell of cut grass in the summer.  Oh, and I never had a star shaped flashlight as a child.  Just FYI.  Small animals are okay though.  I also have a cat and a dog.  The dog is a cockerspaniel named Moka, the cat is a tabby named Ginger.  Oh, and I have a sister, who is three years younger.    THE MORE YOU KNOW!

[IndieBoy]

I really enjoyed the experience. Thank you Ben and Steven.

[ThreeOhFour]

Gah, I should have spaced this out in several comments, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to wall of text you fine folk as well, I guess. AngelicCharon should feel right at home reading this  . Btw I don't know how much of this coincides with Leafshade's opinions, so take it just as my own I guess.

Firstly, thanks to everyone who has played the game and especially those who have commented. To the people who posted really nice comments, you absolutely made the time and effort spent putting it together worthwhile. I've always wanted to be involved in a project that people found moving and have never been in a position where I could say that what I had created was, so it, for me, was the ultimate goal of this little project. To hear that one's goals are attained, even if not for every player, is a very encouraging thing. Some people have posted some super nice comments, I don't know whether it's exaggeration or whatever, but it's still nice to hear positive words.

For the people who posted reviews of the game on their sites, I also say thanks. It's nice to get mentioned here and there around the internet, and I really appreciate anyone who helps spread the word.

And that's prolly all I'm gonna say to the nice people who say nice things. That doesn't make you less important, sorry, but if I spent 400 words thanking people who are nice it's gonna be a boring post.

Before I go into the people who have criticized, a couple of people have labeled this a "Ben304 Game" or a "Game by Ben Chandler". It's probably me being overly sensitive about the issue but let's face it, if you look at the credits it is obvious Steve put more work and effort into this than I did, and it seems a little unfair that this seems a tad forgotten. It's cool to hear that people remember me, but let's not forget that this was most definitely a team effort.

Ok, with regards to the various criticisms... first of all, helpful feedback and suggestions are always welcome! AC, you said you'd been mulling over whether to post about it or not - if you're umming about it, it's probably best that you just post this stuff anyway. Easier to get it said when you feel strongly about it I suppose. Except Dualnames who said he thought there should have been sex. Either that's a Dualnames joke that I totally missed or he has spent too long around forums  

Now, let's break this down!

For the people that thought the puzzles were too easy:

Yeah, they were easy puzzles. Sebastian mentioned to me a couple of times during testing after some tweaking "Don't you think this is too easy now?" and I said "Nope". I wanted to make puzzles that reflect the things Amber goes through during the game - making relevant gameplay in such game was very important to me because doing zany random puzzles would have seemed totally out of place. Interestingly enough, I've posted solutions to all but 2 of the puzzles, and I know that one of those two puzzles had at least one person stumped for a little while. I didn't want the puzzles to get too far in the way of the story, so no weirdo combination puzzles.

To Edmundito who said the puzzles were unengaging... well, fair enough. I did my best to design things that would be entertaining and still relevant - can't expect everyone to enjoy them.

To Leon who asked about the weight difference with a certain puzzle... don't you know that inventories actually distort time and space so that the character can fit everything inside their pants? Items obviously become weightless once picked up, which is why Amber needed to remove inventory items in order to solve that puzzle

With regards to people who thought the first puzzle was kinda off key compared to the others, which were (I thought) fairly relevant to the scene at hand, I totally agree. With the other 4 I had nice symbolic idea of how to represent the emotion... but with the very first puzzle I wanted to just create something that would resemble having a nice day out with a friend. I remembered feeding ducks in the park with my friend Natalie ages ago and it was a very fond memory so I decided I could probably try and base the puzzle on that. Some people seem to have solved the puzzle randomly and gone "It makes no sense". Fair enough. Sometimes puzzles can be accidentally clicked through and leave you going "What just happened?" As much as I'd like to avoid this as a designer, I've not found a good way to do so yet, and I'm sorry if it spoiled the experience for you. I still think it's a pretty neat puzzle.

With regards to the people who thought it was too poetic... well, I'm glad it is poetic. Originally I was going to try and do a game with the (super rough) same basic concept as this game had, that being basically

Spoiler

A journey of emotions represented by different scenes within a single room

[close]

And I really had no idea what to do other than that. I knew I wanted it to have an autumn scene (before Leafshade offered to help the game looked, embarrassingly enough like this and I basically wanted to make an interactive version of something akin to this music video which is my most favourite music video ever). I started discussing it with Steve and he managed to take my crappy and hazy concept and find an actual idea that would work in there, being

Spoiler

The stages of loss

[close]

And then offered to help. If he hadn't offered to help, I would have made something crappy with writing that I've honed only on comedy and every now and then something kinda lackluster that tries to be serious but falls short on an actual message (oh, hello Heed, how are you?) and he would have gone and done something else poetic. I always wanted the game to be kinda poetic, so the fact that he wrote it so made me very happy. Be glad I didn't try to write the parts in this game. It would have sucked.

As for not being able to connect with the characters, well... fair enough I guess. I thought the writing was pretty damn good at conveying what it was meant to convey, but I'm biased because it's our game. I've no doubt Leaftits learnt more about writing doing this game, just as I learnt more about drawing. I know his writing seems to divide people, and it's great that you point out what you dislike. I'm just glad I didn't have the task of trying to convey all the emotions in the game to people through words.

I nag Calin a heck of a lot when we're working on games, so I'll definitely make sure to nag him more about backstory in the future, I guess. We're still figuring out what the hell we're doing, so feedback is always rad to hear.

Thanks for playing ladies and gents, and especially for commenting. If I've missed a point you'd like me to address, point it out and I'll think thoughts about it and hopefully learn some more new stuff.

AngelicCharon, if you wish to discuss anything further or in greater detail feel free to drop me a PM. Sometimes I take a while to reply, but I'm always up for discussion. I doubt Leafshade would mind either but hey, who am I to speak for him?

Man, I've never written a reply this long about a game I worked on before. I feel like such an egoface, but honestly I'm not trying to be like that  

EDIT: And as for the graphics, well I am very proud of them (thanks in no small part to the addition of Steve's breathtaking effect) but still see plenty of room for improvement. Glad to hear that they've gone down so well though!

EDIT2: Also, Fio originally looked like a pig girl. A few days before release Leafshade mentioned this and I was like "Holy crap she does too how are people supposed to like her!?" and went through and redraw all her frames. Call it a weak moment 

[markbilly]

I haven't read Ben's reply but I'm going to add my say to what AC  has said.

I agree that some randomised anecdotes during the pigeon puzzle would have been great, then, as AC says, the player would have followed 'Hurt' on their own. This extra exploration of the characters would have made the game even better than it was.

I believe I've basically said the same, in a few less words!

Anyway, loved the game and what Calin/Steve did with Ben's graphics - the extra effects were beautiful.

[Stupot]

I really liked this game.  As a Mags entry it surpasses anyone's realistic expectations.  I did think it was a tad easy though.  The puzzles were imaginative and fitting, but not very challenging.  The artwork was gorgeous, and I loved the way the whole thing was essentially one big scrolling room. And the particle effects were awesome.  Very impressive indeed.

I thought the writing wasn't over the top at all.  Spot on in my books.  For the first few screens I thought that the whole thing was an allegory for letting someone go without telling them you love them, and that the demon guy was an embodiement of Amber's frustration and anguish at not having said something when she had the chance (it made me persoanally resolve to say something to the girl I have a soft spot for - I've left it far too long ) But it soon became apparent that Fio was dead, which is worse, haha.  Unfortunately I did need the whole 'five stages of grief' thing to be spelled out to me... I guess I'm not clever enough to have worked it out myself.

The voice work was okay, and very welcome, but with some of it I couldn't help being grateful for the subtitles because the dialogue wasn't always very clear... the gargoyle's in particular spoke very quickly.

But overall I was impressed by this short game that really shows the power of AGS.  And the power of collaboration.  More people should swallow their pride and partner up.  Team games are nearly always of better quality than solo efforts.

[kaputtnik]

Hello!

I also helped somewhat on this game, even if it was only testing things and saying "Why does it crash the game when I try to talk to the tree while I am holding a root?". I have some opinions to share, though.

Normally, or at least everytime Ben and I have teamed up so far, I keep pushing in the same direction AC went: Who are those people, why do they do this, and why should the player want to take control of them and help them overcome the strange obstacles we throw in their way?

I didn't here. I knew every line would have meant a tremendous extra effort for the voice actors (which equals: "Adios, MAGS deadline."), I realized that the two of them were already going to their limits and, most importantly: I already knew the background story, because Ben had told me. Which practically incapacitates my objective beta tester position concerning story progression and character development, obviously.

The writing appealed to me most of the time, although I felt the Beckett Grotesques took a part that was a bit disproportional in relation to the other scenes. I didn't find this tiresome or over the top, though, because you see poetic expression in video games so rarely that I, at least, enjoy it every time it is not downright embarrassing. And it was definitely not embarrassing in Eternally Us.

I do agree, though: If there should be time for an updated version, jump at the pidgeons! I mean, really seize them! It's a classic in short movie storytelling to get people to relate with characters very quickly: put them on a park bench, in a sewer, in a bouncy castle or in an elevator together and let them solve a task.

That said: I read through the whole of your post, AC, and I had the feeling that half of the length of it was basically friendly banter about how people should not get you wrong, hehe. I guess it was worth it, though, I feel like you made your point in like a real gentleman, fighting against his personal foe "lack of character background and development in computer games". Which is also my arch nemesis!

But I guess this is absolutely valuable feedback you gave there, and you have every right to voice that, and I am on your side on this one. To me, Eternally Us is like a step in the right direction, but at the same time you lost your watch hurt your ankle and now curse the whole step in the right direction, because you could have taken that step so much better. But it was a decent step alright, one month's worth of a step in the right direction!

edit: thought of a better metaphor than "losing your watch".

[Intense Degree]

Calin - definitely no need to defend your writing here, on any view it was really good and objections from idiots like me count for nothing!

If anything it was style and not substance that has been mentioned and therefore is subjective in any event. Many people absolutely slate Dickens & Shakespere etc. after all!

[TM]

And then offered to help. If he hadn't offered to help, I would have made something crappy with writing that I've honed only on comedy and every now and then something kinda lackluster that tries to be serious but falls short on an actual message (oh, hello Heed, how are you?) and he would have gone and done something else poetic. I always wanted the game to be kinda poetic, so the fact that he wrote it so made me very happy. Be glad I didn't try to write the parts in this game. It would have sucked.

:o Benjamin, are you sick!? Listen to me! *takes by shoulders and shakes*

Heed was a wonderful, poetic game. I don't want to diss Eternally, because I really liked it, too, but I think Heed had a more effortless beauty. The quirky moments ("More tea, Bradley?") didn't detract from it, they actually helped to keep it in a light, endearing state of melancholy. And no message? I think it had a clearer message than Eternally. OK, Eternally Us describes the process of coping with loss. So what's the message? Something like 'you have to let go'? I found Heed had more profound things to say, maybe because they are just touched upon, not spelled out.

That's all I want to say right now. I think the games you've made together aren't superior to the best ones you made on your own (which I think are Heed and Featherweight). They are all smart, creative stuff. So don't put down the pen, Ben. (That pun was intended.)

[Dualnames]

In fact Eternally Us to me, it should be like Ethan's signature. Totally.

And to say the best thing I believe about you, it that you have doubts."The main problem in this world is that stupid people have confidence, and geniuses have doubts."
I really loved Shifter's Box. Not because the graphics were gorgeous. Because it was a fun little game, and it wasn't trying so hard to be anything at all.

Cheers, James.

[ThreeOhFour]

TM:

You're kind to defend Heed, but to be honest it came from a totally different place entirely. I was very depressed when I made it, and it is a game about finding purpose - not just for the main character, but also for myself at the time (which in a sense I guess you could suggest I portrayed myself in the game to a sense). With Eternally Us I already felt like I had a purpose, and it didn't come from a depressing place, really (at least not very much from my side of things). Steve has a very different, more refined writing style to me, and I am very fond of it. Still, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts!

Jim:

And yeah, I totally understand where you're coming from. I love fun little games, both playing them and making them.

But sometimes I want something more serious as well - either to play or to make. I understand that not everybody will enjoy every game I work on - some people probably wish the silly games were more serious, and others wish the more serious games were more light hearted. Some people probably dislike each game of mine they've tried. Fair enough, we all have opinions.

I don't enjoy sticking to a single style, and the beautiful thing about it being a hobby is that I can build whatever I feel like building and don't feel like I am working at something that I don't enjoy.

There will be more fun little games. There will also probably be more of the other sort of games. I will enjoy working on both. I hope people will enjoy playing at least some of them!

Cheers to everyone else for the other comments as well, btw. They're very appreciated!

[Dualnames]

Jim:

And yeah, I totally understand where you're coming from. I love fun little games, both playing them and making them.

But sometimes I want something more serious as well - either to play or to make. I understand that not everybody will enjoy every game I work on - some people probably wish the silly games were more serious, and others wish the more serious games were more light hearted. Some people probably dislike each game of mine they've tried. Fair enough, we all have opinions.

I don't enjoy sticking to a single style, and the beautiful thing about it being a hobby is that I can build whatever I feel like building and don't feel like I am working at something that I don't enjoy.

There will be more fun little games. There will also probably be more of the other sort of games. I will enjoy working on both. I hope people will enjoy playing at least some of them!

Cheers to everyone else for the other comments as well, btw. They're very appreciated!

I'm just saying that you'll get to what you want, but don't try to push it that much. Shifter's was a great game, because you didn't bother to make it be something that it isn't! That's all I'm saying.

Let it flow, you have talent, and the last guy I said that to, has been dead since 2001.