Indiana Jones and the Fountain of Youth - New Games from the fellers at Screen 7

[Guybrush Nosehair]

Oh my, Karatiana Jones and the Temple of Kombat...

I really don't know what to think of this, to be honest.  Indy leaping about like a frog, doing spin kicks like Bruce Lee?  Is this a late April Fools, by chance?  

You already had a functional combat model in the game, but you diverted time to develop this instead?  It's just pretty surreal.

If you're serious about announcers and real time combat like this, a good start would be to scrap the jumping mechanic altogether as it doesn't really DO anything anyway, and then focus on attacks that actually make sense for Indy like using his whip/gun instead of all the kicky-face stuff that he'd never do.  Maybe release this as a separate thing entirely from FoY as it just looks and feels so out of place.

I dunno, I've always been a pretty strong supporter of this project but this just seems really out of place compared to the other wonderful work you guys have put into the game.  

I completely agree. I've been following this project for a few years now. This seems really out of place.

[abstauber]

I disagree with you two. That's exactly what I expect from a remake and I always hated the old SCUMM punching engine.

Okay, the jumping height is pretty high and the demo is unplayable on my keyboard (MS Ergonomic 4000), but anyway in the final game this minigame is simply terrific.


PS. please consider configurable keys

[blueskirt]

I completely agree. I've been following this project for a few years now. This seems really out of place.

My opinion also. I envision Indy fighting sequences to have the sobriety of the first Prince of Persia fighting sequences, minus the sword, plus combat pragmatism.

Take the old fighting sequence from the demo, slow down the punching animations to reduce commands spamming, and introduce a slightly simplified version of the fighting sequences from The Last Crusade (punch high, punch low, block high, block low, step back, step forward.)

Keep the cheap tricks, it's an awesome idea and you should add more:
Sand in eyes when you're close to the enemy (Enemy is temporary unable to block)
Tackle when you're away from him (Push enemy some step back)
Grab improvised weapon if there is one close to you (Extra damage and/or range)
Etc.

Some enemies could be immune to certain cheap tricks, some enemies could use cheap tricks of their own... Environmental hazards during fights would be nice too, remember the satisfaction you got when you pushed a tough enemy off a ledge or into a trap in Prince of Persia.

If you can re-create the Last Crusade fighting engine, with a simplified high/low instead of high/mid/low, and spice it up with all this stuff, I think figuring out how to defeat nazi in combat will be just as fun as figuring out how to bluff your way past them.

[DoorKnobHandle]

Guys, guys, please actually read the info you find in this thread and on the download page (especially before announcing that you aren't looking forward to the game at all anymore because of this Easter release). When you play the full FoY game, you will be able to avoid any fighting at all and in case you do end up in a brawl you can choose between the old SCUMM combat (which is exactly the same you had in your fight versus the Barrier Guard in the FoY demo) and this arcade mode (not with announcers obviously - but with high jumps, punches, kicks, blocking, ducking, combos and so on).

The arcade combat is making it into the game for the people that like a little more to fighting than clicking in a simple pattern and I think it does that nicely. I know it seems rather boring unless played by two actual people, preferrably with a gamepad connected, in which case it actually is a balanced and fun game much like Street Fighter II or Tekken III for instance. If that isn't your cup of tea, no problem. Ignore the Easter special and choose the classic SCUMM combat mode in the full FoY and you'll never see it again.

You already had a functional combat model in the game, but you diverted time to develop this instead?  It's just pretty surreal.

We're on our 12th year of development.

If you're serious about announcers and real time combat like this, a good start would be to scrap the jumping mechanic altogether as it doesn't really DO anything anyway, and then focus on attacks that actually make sense for Indy like using his whip/gun instead of all the kicky-face stuff that he'd never do.

How much have you played the game? Have you tested it against other people? We have and jumping does a LOT in the hands of a skillful player. Not to mention, there will be air attacks available as well. Whips and guns will probably be available as a special combo.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I read all the info and I stand by everything I said 100%, including the jumping which just looks silly.

[DoorKnobHandle]

Well, then don't choose that mode. Why the negativity? We do what we want to do and it's been that way forever. There are some SCUMM hardcore fans and there are people who have more open minds about how a possible Indy FoA follow-up should look like, we cater to both.

[Guybrush Nosehair]

Before this turns hostile, I just want to point out that the developers are making the right choice - by giving the player the choice. I don't personally like the arcade setup, but I'm sure others do.

[Mati256]

The jumping Indy sprite it's kind of odd. Maybe if he jumped in the same way Heinrich does, it's more natural.

[Miez]

You already had a functional combat model in the game, but you diverted time to develop this instead?  It's just pretty surreal.

Not quite - development of the full game has not been halted or resources been diverted for 'this'.

[subspark]

Dear folks, we appreciate and thank you your feedback. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. To put some concern to rest, this Fighter is released as a public Beta and was effectively developed within just under a couple of months. The full game is indeed powering on at near maximum capacity - we have more than one programmer, artist and animator and Screen 7 is producing several games at once.

Some additional information for your consideration:
A) In order to get this out into public hands for an Easter release, the members behind the fighter had to work around the limited resources while other team members were devoted to the FOY (full game) and an exciting commercial title (TBA).
B) Because this is a Beta, it is not going to be as polished as any of the final releases we have produced. This is our first beta and we decided to invite our community to play it, enjoy it, dislike it, but most importantly, offer constructive and critical feedback so that we can improve the fighter largely to popular demand. While this release is a bit of fun and to be taken lightheartedly, the core of the system an extremely complex set of instructions and a monumental task that our wonderful principle programmer, Jan has taken head on! This slightly alternative public beta serves as a practical testing ground we deem critical to ensure a balanced arcade mode that attracts a positive reception between players of multiple preferences.

So again folks, thank you for your feedback so far. We encourage you to continue to offer helpful feedback like this on the FOY forums or in the appropriate channel here on the AGS forums. We value our community and gathering  player feedback from critical thinkers like you folks is a favorable way for us to pick your brains on what's important and what you're likely to expect from an arcade mode in our full game.

Of course, as we move through the development stages of this testing ground, we will continue to improve the content in the game ( including the silly looking frog leap ).
When we have enough of the system ready to transfer into the full production, the arcade will remain as a mini-game extra on the FOY site and will continue to grow on its own trajectory.

Some of the things you wont see transfered into the full game include:

• The main menu,
  
• The announcer
  
• The retrotypical "WIN" / "FIGHT" graphics
  
• Player/opponent selection
  
• Multiplayer
  
  The next big update for the FOY Fighter is expected to introduce a few exciting new features. These will include:
  
• Singleplayer AI - ( this remains one of the more challenging of features to develop )
  
• Revision of sprites and animations
  
• Air kick & air punch
  
• Multiplay characters
  
• Improved performance
  
• Several alternate arenas
  
• And much more!
  
  
  
  The remaining features from the Easter beta will be massaged deep into our full production.
  We invite the AGS community to help us make it a better game!
  
  Sincerely,
  Paul.

[blueskirt]

Will you do the same for the SCUMM mode, with a demo to showcase how it will play in the full game so we can help you finetune it? I ask because I found the SCUMM mode in the v1.2 demo unbalanced and easy with the right mouse button that blocks every punch.

BTW, giving us the choice between both modes is a real cool move!

[DoorKnobHandle]

Will you do the same for the SCUMM mode, with a demo to showcase how it will play in the full game so we can help you finetune it? I ask because I found the SCUMM mode in the v1.2 demo unbalanced and easy with the right mouse button that blocks every punch.

BTW, giving us the choice between both modes is a real cool move!

Thanks blueskirt! That's not a bad idea after all and I agree that the demo fight in the demo, albeit a lot of people (more than I thought apparently) really loved the way it worked, wasn't much of a challenge in any way. That was, as I said, one of the reasons to make it a bit more exciting and give it some more depth that the player can choose to make a part of hers or his FoY experience (or not!) at will.

The demo fighting did reflect the SCUMM combat system very closely, however, so I'm sure the aforementioned SCUMM FoA purists would be very upset if we ended up changing much about the classic fighting mode in FoY... As a sidenote, I have to admit I always thought that fights in SCUMM sucked incredibly hard (about the only thing that did) - so, any ideas in particular? Maybe we could get away with just changing the blocking functionality? Maybe you can block high, mid and low and have to choose the right section in order to block (then turn down the animation speed so you can, if you are quick, actually react in time)? I will also have to play the FoA fights again for reference..

[Igor Hardy]

The demo fighting did reflect the SCUMM combat system very closely, however, so I'm sure the aforementioned SCUMM FoA purists would be very upset if we ended up changing much about the classic fighting mode in FoY... As a sidenote, I have to admit I always thought that fights in SCUMM sucked incredibly hard (about the only thing that did) - so, any ideas in particular? Maybe we could get away with just changing the blocking functionality? Maybe you can block high, mid and low and have to choose the right section in order to block (then turn down the animation speed so you can, if you are quick, actually react in time)? I will also have to play the FoA fights again for reference..

Oh stop worrying so much about FoA purists, or I'll think you're building some sort of monument to FoA. It's low res, it's Indy and it's an adventure game - that's enough. The rest I want to be your version of Indiana Jones and as fresh an experience as possible.

[Wyz]

I must say I really liked it! The animations are great, and frankly an adventure game that features an arcade style fighter as mini-game is brilliant if you'd ask me!
At this time it is still a bit quirky but that is what I would have expected from a beta.
Points of interest might be: The range of the attacks is a bit small, you might want to exaggerate the punches and kicks a bit by stretching the arms and legs. That's how Street fighter does it anyways. Jumping in with a attack is not yet possible, but that would be nice. I couldn't test it really well since I need someone to play it with me, but is crouching and backing up also blocking?

I know how difficult they are to program (I'm working on a fighter myself) and how much time the animations would cost but will there be any command normals, specials, grabs and combos in the future? Indy could use his whip, and you could recycle the cheap tricks.

Oh well you did a great job so far! Btw, I played it with a game-pad, I guess on a keyboard it's a bit uncomfortable.

edit:

Oh stop worrying so much about FoA purists

hah, I consider myself a purist but this somehow doesn't put me off.

[cianty]

I am very surprised that ProgZmax's comment receives so much hostility. Didn't I just read an interview on the AGS blog where someone praised the honesty of the AGSers? So this is probably the first time I read someone NOT posting sugar-sweet praises about the Fountain of Indy Demos and he immediately gets shot down?

I am not a fan of this easter egg/special either. It totally feels out of place, the jumping does look silly - bottom line it's not what I like to see in an Indiana Jones adventure game that is meant to be in the tradition of the previous official titles. So should I not state my opinion if that's what it is? Is this thread for praises only?

To my mind, the fact that such a thing is included in the game degrades the product - regardless of whether you can choose to circumvent it (you'll have to know it's there in order to avoid it). That's my opinion, Zmax's and a few others and it's entirely up to Screen7 to make of it whatever they will. But if we can't have such discussions here then the announcements should be kept to a website only.
[/rant for freedom of speech]

[DoorKnobHandle]

@Ascovel and Wyz: Thanks for the feedback. We DO worry about the FoA purists because we, in a way, are too. But we, as a team, we're able to say that we simply want to make FoY fun for all sides and types of players. Wyz, agreed on all points pretty much, there will be more attacks including special combos and such later, animations will be reworked and so on. This is a simple holiday special to give the people waiting for the release something fresh and new.

I am very surprised that ProgZmax's comment receives so much hostility. Didn't I just read an interview on the AGS blog where someone praised the honesty of the AGSers? So this is probably the first time I read someone NOT posting sugar-sweet praises about the Fountain of Indy Demos and he immediately gets shot down?

His comments didn't receive hostility. Where exactly was he 'shot down'? If at all, his posts were filled with some degree of negativity - undeservedly comparing our hard work to an April fools joke for example. The rest was simply misinformed due to not reading/understanding that this combat mode will only be an option in the game, not a necessity. What honesty has to do with anything I don't know. We are always looking for constructive criticism and have a past of dealing well with it.

I am not a fan of this easter egg/special either. It totally feels out of place, the jumping does look silly - bottom line it's not what I like to see in an Indiana Jones adventure game that is meant to be in the tradition of the previous official titles. So should I not state my opinion if that's what it is? Is this thread for praises only?

To my mind, the fact that such a thing is included in the game degrades the product - regardless of whether you can choose to circumvent it (you'll have to know it's there in order to avoid it). That's my opinion, Zmax's and a few others and it's entirely up to Screen7 to make of it whatever they will. But if we can't have such discussions here then the announcements should be kept to a website only.
[/rant for freedom of speech]

If you have an option to have your fights be arcade or classic style, you choose the one you like and you will never even see the other one in the game, the mere fact that it exists somewhere degrades the game? I honestly didn't expect anybody to seriously share this (ridiculous, in my opinion) sentiment. We do everything to satisfy you people by offering two different fighting mechanics and now this isn't enough? It's a little frustrating you have to understand. :p

Please don't pretend like you are defending freedom of speech (thus implying we are in fact only looking for positive feedback), that is not the truth at all. I made good and valid points (amongst the other FoY staff that posted) and dismantled the points ProgZMax and you have made. In case you don't want this game mode in the game AT ALL (even though you only need to not choose it at some point and then are free to forget about it entirely), then FoY might not be for you I'm afraid.

[Miez]

Where did you exactly get the impression from that criticism is not appreciated? I for one welcome it, and I think we can only make a better game if we listen to players - the ones that like our work and the ones that have issues with it.

I really don't see the hostility.

[cianty]

Alright alright, maybe I did get it wrong. If so, I apologize. Call me The Wrong Man.

On one hand you refer to this as an April fools joke, which shouldn't be taken seriously, and on the other it's basically a sneak peek of an upcoming feature. I don't think the first aspect can be used as a reply to expressing dislike of the second.

About this aspect: "offering two different fighting mechanics and now this isn't enough" - Now this is my personal opinion but I do have an uncomfortable feeling knowing that there is something in the game which feels out of place - even if I don't have to "use" it. It affects my overall feeling about the game. Maybe I am the only person who feels that way, or at least part of a small minority, while the rest is far less picky. What I meant to convey is that to me additional features don't necessarily upgrade the product, even if I can avoid or ignore them in-game.

[DoorKnobHandle]

No worries, cianty.

Unfortunately, you have misunderstood us again - this is not an April Fools joke. ProgZMax brought that up in his original post in this thread by comparing our efforts to a joke game made to, I guess, troll people on the day. This is a serious beta release (that happened to be released on Easter, 3 weeks later) that shows an early version of the mechanics of one way you can play the fights in FoY. We have nowhere called it an April Fools joke release or have used that as a means to 'defend' against (constructive) criticism anywhere.

If the mere fact that the arcade fights are one of two possible selections is in the game really bothers you, which you have re-stated, then there isn't much we can do to help you (don't mean to offend you here, everybody has their own taste - the logic behind it still irritates me a bit but that's fine). In that case, I hope you give it a try anyways once it is released!

[cianty]

No worries, cianty.

Unfortunately, you have misunderstood us again - this is not an April Fools joke. ProgZMax brought that up in his original post in this thread by comparing our efforts to a joke game made to, I guess, troll people on the day. This is a serious beta release (that happened to be released on Easter, 3 weeks later) that shows an early version of the mechanics of one way you can play the fights in FoY. We have nowhere called it an April Fools joke release or have used that as a means to 'defend' against (constructive) criticism anywhere.

Ah, yes. I see! Sorry about that.

If the mere fact that the arcade fights are one of two possible selections is in the game really bothers you, which you have re-stated, then there isn't much we can do to help you (don't mean to offend you here, everybody has their own taste - the logic behind it still irritates me a bit but that's fine). In that case, I hope you give it a try anyways once it is released!

Oh, of course I still do look forward to the final product and will surely give it a try. After playing the FOY demo I am very positive that it will not disappoint me at all. Maybe even the arcade mode will grow on once the Mortal Kombat disguise is gone and the immersion sets in.
I also see how as a devolper you always want to try new and different things instead of repeating the same old concepts. How boring would the game be without evolution and the desire to try different things. I definately didn't mean to discourage such endeavours at all. Gah, I guess you can call me a difficult customer...

By the way, are there any infos regarding the other current Screen7 projects?