I've finally completed the game. I tried not to make first game's mistakes. I hope you will like it
Technical Features:
* 800*600 32 bit graphics
* Highly animated characters
Gameplay is classic Sierra style. You can change commands by right click or mousewheel. When you scroll to up side of screen , you will access inventory window.
Download link: http://sosk2.coolbluegames.com/sosk2.rar (Host Provider: Gord10)
Download Mirror: http://rapidshare.com/files/34459653/sosk2.rar.html
The game size is 71 MB
Official walkthrough : sosk2.coolbluegames.com/walkthrough.htm (http://sosk2.coolbluegames.com/walkthrough.htm)
Mirror link instructions: The Rapidshare page wil be open when you click. Find "free" button on the bottom of the page and click it. After that, 60 seconds will count and "download" buıtton will appear.
By the way, i apologize for people i promised for beta testing and grammar checking. I didn't have time for this. I don't often connect the internet.
(http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/715/final1wk4.jpg)
(http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/990/final2el9.jpg)
(http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/2581/final3rh9.jpg)
Yo! Looks well worth the download..so I'm downloading it :)
:) I hope you like it. Happy gaming .
This looks excellent. I only played the first three rooms, but I can already tell it's very high quality (loved that you even have picking up-animations where you see the item). You probably should have beta tested just a little bit though, since you start the game with an inventory item that you only find later :)
Think theres a bug at the part when you do the picture puzzle in the museum. I was trying to fathom out what you had to do, I moved a couple of tiles and got the artefact but then my inventory box disappeared and was replaced with a load of words - something about gui - guess its programmers jargon?
Really stuck getting the yllow jewel - It is impossible to move quick enough ???
GarageGothic;
Thank you for your comment. I was aware that an inventory item remained ticked "Player starts with this item" after uploading the game. Fortunately, that item is picked up earlier in the game :) I'm glad you like the game. Thanks
Jane;
I've never had that bug you mentioned in the picture puzzle but i will work on it to fix it . Thanks for realizing that.
About getting the yellow jewel, i've tried it thousand times. If you move quick enough, you are getting the jewel. I advise you not to wait Ali's last word. Just click to skip it and click again to right-bottom of the screen. Keep doing that untill you pass the trunk. You can avoid being caught if you pass the trunk. I assume you've solved the puzzle in the room before getting the yellow jewel. If you don't, there's no way to run away. Remeber that. For details of that puzzle, please send me PM
Enjoyed the game. The graphics were really well done and the game play was fun. Really liked the way you designed puzzle in the museum. Thanks.
Thank you Guest. I did my best you to enjoy the game
proximity, can you give a working link to the 1st game?
First game's link is dead. I will upload it again when i get time. By the way, how do you find grammar ? I make huge grammar mistakes ?
proximity (Fatih),
I've just completed the game and voted on it. You did a good job - well done! The graphics are superb. I'd like to make a few comments and recommendations, if I may:
1. You need a "Resume" option in the "Save/Load/Quit" menu. At the moment, if you change your mind or hit Escape by mistake, the only way to go back to the game (as far as I can see) is to click either "Save" or "Load" and then "Cancel".
2. Perhaps the
Spoiler
holes for the red and blue diamonds could be made clearer. I could see the holes for the green and yellow ones and put them in, but then I wondered why the door wouldn't open.
3. The conversations should update once certain actions or events discussed in that conversation have taken place. Example:
* Character A: "Can I do this?"
* Character B: "Yes, but you must bring me object X first."
(character A finds object X and gives it to character B)
* Character A: "Can I do this?"
* Character B: "Yes, but you must bring me object X first."
The conversation after B has given X to A should be something like:
* Character A: "Can I do this?"
* Character B: "Yes, go ahead."
There are several places in the game where this happens, such as
Spoiler
when want to get on to the roof of the cafe, when you want to go into the restaurant and when you want to get the cookie from the oracle, among others.
It looks like you have a bug with
Spoiler
the helmet - I found that it didn't move properly with the character on the moon, and on Mars, it was a long way from the character's head.
The simplest way to fix this would probably be
Spoiler
to have separate sprites for the character with the helmet on.
Yes, there are quite a lot of grammatical mistakes, unfortunately, but I don't think there were any that meant that the text can't be understood. If you want, I can proof-read the text for you and correct the English. Send me a private message if you'd like me to do this.
PS: I see that you mentioned you didn't have time for checking grammar. Never mind, but if you find time for it and still need someone to do it, I am available.
PPS: Please upload part 1 again so we can play it!
By the way, is there a dead end in the game?
Spoiler
If you don't pick up the coal on Mars or turn it into fake kryptonite, does that mean you won't be able to defeat Superman later? Or is it the case that if you don't get the coal or make the kryptonite, you won't be able to go through the seventh door until you have done so? If this is the case, how does the game handle the situation in which you try to go through the door without having made the kryptonite?
Is there a way you can fix the game to be played on older computers like the color depth.
paolo, thanks for your comment. You really caught illogical mistakes. I'm very sorry for them. I would like to fix it but as i said before, i had no time for beta testing. If they don't block your enjoyment, it's ok. I am thinking about different languages. May be i can send you the text when i decide to distribute it for translators. Thanks.
This is for your second message :
Spoiler
You can enter the seventh door without taking the coal or dipping it into green liquid. However, you can't finish the game without it and you'll be die if you don't show it to Superman.
I will upload first game again. Thanks for your interest.
Interesting backgrounds. Looks very nice!
Proximity,
Thanks for replying.
Don't be sorry about your mistakes - you have made a good game! But if you find the time to fix them, it will make the game even better.
If you would like me to translate the game I would be happy to do so. Send me a private message and we can discuss which languages you want and whether I can provide text in those languages.
Hm, so it seems there is a dead end in the game. Perhaps you could change the game so that
Spoiler
if you try to go through the seventh door without having picked up the coal and turned it into kryptonite, make Ali say, "I need to do something else before I leave", or something like that.
Thank you Stan and paolo. I'm glad you like it. I will let you know when i upload the text on the net.
paolo;
Spoiler
You're right I just thought players should think a while what they must do to beat Superman but it was a mistake sorry
I downloaded the game and stopped playing it right at the beginning. The timer is too fast to use the tool on the window and escape. Big turn off to have a fast timer right at the beginning of the game.
I thought the opposite when i made the game. I thought people would enjoy and got used to it at the beginning of the game. Everyone doesn't have to like it.You're free to hate it. I understand you. Thanks
Quote from: Nostradamus on Sun 17/06/2007 08:06:41
I downloaded the game and stopped playing it right at the beginning. The timer is too fast to use the tool on the window and escape. Big turn off to have a fast timer right at the beginning of the game.
Spoiler
Did you push the chair against the door?
Oh, i misunderstood :) Nostradamus, listen to mr.me :)
No. that's not the point, I wasn't looking for a hint.
If I wanted to do timer related fast actions I'd play an action game.
I could work through an action sequence or a timer puzzle later in an adventure game if the game was interesting to that point and it was important to the plot. But to have a timer puzzle right at the start, having to either see the intro over & over or save the game and load it over and over with barely having a few seconds to try stuff is a major major turn-off.
What can i say ? I just wanted to create excitement at the beginning of the game. As i said before, i thought people would like it. Most of players actually did. I can say i achieved my goal.
Not played the game yet, but for the record here's some games that tried that "excitment" stuff as well:
"Broken Sword 2" - you start tied up in a house that's on fire. It's exciting, but you can't actually die. And it's still exciting.
"Broken Sword 3" - you start in a plane that's about to tip over the edge of a cliff. It's really exciting, but I don't think you can actually die. And if you can, it surely isn't on a timer.
"Riddle of Master Lu" - at the very start, you have to save your friend from a poisonous cobra. There's a timer, and you can die, but in that game, if you die you just restart from the beginning of the dangerous situation.
Hey, "Beyond Good and Evil" starts with a fight, and even though it's more of an action game, it has the foresight to also reset to the beginning of the dangerous situation whenever the player loses.
Just letting you know of some examples of how other games did it, in case more people complain about it and you feel moved to seek alternatives. I know I would have complained about it if I had played the game yet - forshame, I've been very busy...
"Beneath the steel sky" : When you are killed by a monster or robot, you restart before cutscene of that dangerous situation.
"Gabriel Knight 3" : When you are killed by traps late in the game, you restart with interface "try again" or something. Also you have to wait loading screen .
"Monkey Island 4" : When you lost fight in Monkey Combat, you have to restart from the beginning of the fight and the it was too long.
I think adventure fans passed easily beginning of the game because it is so clear that the sofa must be pushed. You can see the sofa doesn't have any shadow. That means the sofa is interactive object and you gain 30 seconds after pushing it. I think it is reasonable time to solve pliers-window puzzle and escape from the room. I think adventure fans passed the first room after at most 10 attempts and it is not excuse to give up if you are REAL adventure fan.
In Rui Pires' examples of Broken Sword games, those puzzles had reasonable timers or no timers at all (because I passed both with no problem) and also they have the reputation of being Broken Sword so you want to do the puzzle because you know the rest of the game is gonna be great.
Sorry, first impression means everything. If you start the game and it annoys you why would you have motivation to go on?
Quote from: proximity
I think adventure fans passed easily beginning of the game because it is so clear that the sofa must be pushed. You can see the sofa doesn't have any shadow. That means the sofa is interactive object and you gain 30 seconds after pushing it.
I was going for the pliers\window combo, I didn't notice shading on the sofa because to me it's not important. My thought process in an adventure game is what would I do in the situation and how can I use stuff and not determining by the graphics if objects are useable or not. To you it's so clear that it has no shadow because you MADE it.
Quote from: proximity
I think it is reasonable time to solve pliers-window puzzle and escape from the room. I think adventure fans passed the first room after at most 10 attempts
I'm not willing to see the intro up to 10 times or load savedgames up to 10 times, especially when saving the game actually takes a few seconds of the timer.
Quote from: proximity
and it is not excuse to give up if you are REAL adventure fan.
Excuse me??
"REAL" adventure fans are not defined by playing ANY AND EVERY game that they stumble upon. I don't have to like everything. Just like any fan or any type of entertainment form on the earth doesn't have to read\watch\play\listen\etc to everything in the genre of whatthey like or the person that made what they like.
Nostradamus really knows everything :)
I have completed the game, I liked it much. But as it is said above, the actions sequences were a bit annoying. No, the game still skips to the point where the action starts (instead of a "Game Over" screen that leads us to the main menu). But we still have to wait a whole cut-scene to finish when we are caught by the agents in the beginning. As I have mentioned to you in another forum; if you used the StartCutScene and EndCutScene scripts, at least we could be able to skip them with the esc button. I must say this: If you didn't make the this game and this wasn't a game hosted in my webspace, I would stop playing the game just because of that annoying action sequence.
And about the commendary of the agents... If we die in the programmer's rooms, we start the game in the beginning of the level (if we didn't save the game), where is such a past point to start on. And also it is too easy to die in that level, how could the players imagine that
Spoiler
that door leads to Moon or Mars and we die if we don't have/used the right item on us
?
And about the T-Rex room:
Spoiler
It is too hard to notice we can pick up the long and short bones of the skeletons; because the whole skeleton is showed as "Bones" in the GUI and Ali says "I don't want to/can't touch the bones". How could the players figure out to pick up the bones?
I think the game needed beta-testing before releasing (but I know you didn't have much time to release the game).
In spite of all these, it is still an ejoyable game to play. I must say the jokes of the Turkish version (which weren't included in the English version) were really good.
Nostradamus;
If you can't notice the sofa as an interactive object, i don't think you are real adventure fan, forgive me. Because, real adventure fans can guess solutions before they solve it. Because they have played hundreds of adventure games and puzzles like this are easy to them.
If you remember Resident Evil series, objects in room shines and you can easily notice them. We're talking about AGS games so you should distinguish interactive objects because they are different then background objects and they have to be. You know what timer is, so you should also know how interactive objects look like. I'm not the only one use this technique on AGS. If you've played lots of AGS games, you can easily notice interactive objects. This is called " real adventure fan " and you're not one of them, sorry.
I can't discuss enjoyment you got from the game because this is your enjoyment. You don't have to like everything. You can find timer puzzle annoying. I respect that. But i insist that players who are higher level can easily notice the sofa and they did. Noone asked hint for the beginning on Hints and Tips - this game thread. That means, adventure fans easily passed the first room. This is not my opinion, this is REAL and PROVED data.
Who THE HELL are you to judge what kind of adventure game fan I am??
FYI I have been playing adventure games for at least 12 years and have been in here for 6 years and I have played hundreds of adventure games.
You judging me and saying I'm not a "real adventure game fan" because I don't like your little game opening is highly offensive, irrational and unjustified. All I was trying to do is give you some constructive criticism. You should know if people don't like stuff in your games and be sure that while maybe only one is talking but there are more who are silent but feel the same. Your responses are childish and even brutish and arrogant. I can't believe someone who worked hard on a game and who wants people to play his game talks this way.
I can tell you that from now I will never play or support any of your future games, not because of quality because they're good, but because of your disgusting little attitude. And with this attitude you will not go far in this community.
This behaviour will only make people less interested in you and your games.
All I wanted is for you to know that there is something that me and some people find discouraging. You could have just made the timer a bit longer and improve the game for many people. And as you can see above I'm not the only one here who didn't like some aspects of your game. In this here community people praise you when you do well and criticize you when you do stuff that are unliked - so you may improve them and get more people to play your games. Instead you chose to offend and go unneedlessly to a personal level - you have a lot to learn on how to behave buddy.
Quote"Beneath the steel sky" : When you are killed by a monster or robot, you restart before cutscene of that dangerous situation.
"Gabriel Knight 3" : When you are killed by traps late in the game, you restart with interface "try again" or something. Also you have to wait loading screen .
"Monkey Island 4" : When you lost fight in Monkey Combat, you have to restart from the beginning of the fight and the it was too long.
Er, weren't we talking about such sequences in the *beginning* of games?
Also, the notion of a "real adventure gamer" as someone who scans the screen for something that looks graphically different is... well, it's dis-heartening. I bet if that's what Crowther and Woods, King's Quest and Maniac Mansion knew would happen, they'd have thrown their hands up in frustration and just give up. Your definition isn't of a "real adventurer", rather of someone who's *lumbered through* (as opposed to *playing*) umpteen adventures and wants to get through to the end, and employs all the tricks he's learned with games of similar design, with knowledge of their flaws. What's so different between that and using a walkthrough, or extensive cheats in non-adventure games?
Other than that, I pretty much support Nostradamus in everything he said.
I would like to start off by saying I'm sorry for starting this argument, this was not my intention.
Proximity - I completely disagree with what you have said and you are completely out of line.
Nostradamus - At this point I understand you dismissing the game, however before Proximity's outburst I think you didn't give the game a fair chance. From what I understand you were trying to use the pliers on the window without having pushed the chair against the door. That means that you missed a part of the puzzle and until you've tried the beginning with the chair pushed, I don't think you can say the timer was too fast. If you did do this though, then you did give it a fair chance and saying the timer is too fast is completely understandable.
Hey, i'm not out of line. I didn't insult anybody. Telling someone that he is not an adventure fan ain't an insulting. It's just a criticism like you made to me. If you can't handle criticisms, don't criticize others. I play adventure games for 15 years.
All i wanted to tell you that adventure games can't be played without ambition and passion. Let me tell you something. I hate pixel hunting puzzles ok ? I find it extremely annoying. I was playing Apprentice 2 and i found 1 or 2 pixel hunting puzzles ( like bucket part ). However, that couldn't prevent me to continue the game. I just tried harder to solve that puzzle and just gave up SOLVING it, not gave up the GAME. I just looked at a walkthrough and continued to play it and finished it. Annoying puzzles can't stop me. They just make me more ambitious and i get stronger desire to finish the game. This is adventure gaming. I've never given up an adventure game in my life. I've always finished the game i started (with or without help of walkthrough ). And i know there are more passionate adventure players than me. They can finish any adventure game without help of walkthroughs. Someday i hope i will be the real adventure player like them.
Who the hell i am ? I am just an ordinary amateur AGS game developer. But i am very ambitious and passionate adventure player and never give up a game i started even if it is full of pixel hunting puzzles those i think EXTREMELY ANNOYING.
Adventure gaming is about ambition and passion. The harder it is, the more you enjoy. May be you notice that big commercial games have very very hard puzzles and some of them are impossible to solve without looking at walkthrough. Are you giving up them when you challenge extremely hard puzzles ? Where is the passion ?
And for the god's sake, the sofa is standing in the middle of the screen and it's looking at wrong direction. What more can i do to tell players that it must be pushed ? Do you want me to write a text on it " Please push the sofa " ? Where is the passion ? Where is the adventure gaming ?
I'm saying this as a player, this is not the game to give up at the very beginning. In fact, any adventure game shouldn't be given up at all if you start to play it and if it doesn't have a bug you can't dismiss.
I agree with everything Rui Pires said. Summed up things I wanted to say but didn't know how to phrase.
Mr. me, you didn't start this. I would definitely would try using the sofa after a few tries but again, I don't like having to go through the intro dialogue again & again, and you can't even press ESC to bypass it, nor loading savedgames which anyway would leave less time to do the sofa thing. To me a game that starts like this is too annoying to continue. Unlike promixity I do not force myself to play games I don't enjoy just for the sake of finishing them, that's not being a "real" adventure fan, that's being an
addict that will play anything and everything just because it's an adventure. That's not passion and ambition, that's submissiveness. That's playing anything that's an adventure game even if you don't like it. For comparison, if you like Sci-Fi movies do you watch ANY and EVERY sci-fi movies even if they're crap just for the sake of watching all sci-fi? Do you keep watching a movie if it completely bores you or annoys you for say 30 minutes? most people don't.
My ambition and passion in playing adventure games comes in games I enjoy, games that give me a reason to try annoying puzzles and pixel hunt and go through action phases. Not games who give a strict timer puzzle right at the start with no real plot in the intro and not even an option to skip the intro dialogue. There's nothing to motivate to play thorough some this that's annoying. There's no guarantee you would enjoy the game after that.
But now I will not solve the puzzle and will not play this game or any future games this guy has because of his attitude. I will not support a game writer who insults an judges his own crowd who are supposed to play his games.
He doesn't even get it, as you can see from his post, he doesn't even understand how he's offending people and how he's nobody to judge people. That's really sad, but it's not my problem. It's only proxmity's loss. He'll lose potential players for his games.
I'm trying to be polite but you are just getting rude to rude Nostradamus. My name is not this guy and my name is not the hell ok ?. You will call me proximity or Fatih. I don't need you to play my games. I don't need your criticisms. Delete the game and don't play my games again.
I understand everything. You're even not a player, you're just a consumer. Adventure gaming is sort of addiction and you don't know that.
I advise you to learn something from Jane. She plays all AGS games and types a comment to all she's played. You're just rude, impolite and consumer. You can't handle criticisms and you shouldn't criticize others' games. I didn't insult you but you are just getting rude to rude. I can't figure what you will say next. May be you swear to me huh ?
I think I can understand why people are getting out of shape, here. Proximity: The way you're talking to Nostradamus, and others, you're belittling their hobbies and their passions. I can really understand what you want to say - when people criticize something that you've put a lot of work into, it's usually a pretty tough pill to swallow. Still, from an objective point of view, you're coming across as very antagonistic. I think anyone involved in independent game design is allowed to consider themselves a 'real' gamer, regardless of their play style. Some people would consider someone who consults walkthroughs or asks for help not a 'real' adventure gamer, either, for example. The point is that it's not kind to speak to people in that manner. When you make a disparaging comment about another person, even if you don't intend it to be malicious, it usually comes across that way.
If you feel justified with your puzzle, Proximity, please feel free to leave it as is. There are many schools of thought on action sequences in adventure games - hardcore LucasArts fans generally shy away from them by and large because they believe that games should be a purely cerebral experience, affording you as much time as you need to work out puzzles whereas Sierra-ites are usually more ready to accept puzzles that put them on the spot. Either way you slice it, however, in my experience, the gaming community here usually seems to prefer games that give you a little extra time to think, in the case that they put you in life-or-death situations at all in the first place. You could apparently very easily fix some of the 'problems' that have been pointed out if you're willing, now that you've released your game and have as much time as you need to improve upon it.
And Nostradamus, if you don't mind me saying, I think you're taking what Proximity said a little too seriously - as I said above, I'm more than willing to acknowledge that his posts have come across as antagonistic, but when someone takes criticism badly, I reckon that it's better to just shrug your shoulders and be happy knowing that you've said your peace without needing to get into a big argument about it. You've been handling it pretty well, considering, but when a debate turns into a pissing contest, quoting how many years you've been playing adventure games, and arguing about who's more of an adventure gamer, it starts to sound a little childish.
Now, this is an announcement thread for a game - congratulations on releasing your game, Proximity - it's a pretty big and difficult task to accomplish (and one I have yet to do, myself). Especially one with a little meat on it, such as yours has. I'm sure it was a great learning experience for you - there are a few things that could've been ironed out, like the dialogue issues (with repeating lines that have become obsoletized by in-game actions), and it would appear that some members of the public would prefer that cutscenes be skippable. I'd love to see the issues addressed in an updated release, or see them worked out in the next game you release, which will be a pleasure to play.
So there I go, acting like everyone's clucking mother hen again, but for Pete's sake, this is a generally friendly forum. Now I'm going to go and hide in the Competitions and Activities forum, like usual.
I just want to add something. I can swallow criticisms easily. For example, i can't answer anyone who are annoyed by T-Rex puzzle. Because they are absolutely right. T-Rex is too fast and you have to be very quick. Look, i am criticizing my own game :)
Quote from: Nostradamus on Tue 19/06/2007 09:38:15
I would definitely would try using the sofa after a few tries but again, I don't like having to go through the intro dialogue again & again, and you can't even press ESC to bypass it, nor loading savedgames which anyway would leave less time to do the sofa thing. To me a game that starts like this is too annoying to continue.
Maybe I'm playing a different version or something, but when I lose at the very beginning of the game I don't have to watch the intro again, it starts with the character in front of the door.
He's talking about dying cutscene.
I think both of you are little bit faulty.
proximity, you can't judge people what kind of player they are. It's true, there are several types of players but you can't decide which one is i am or anyone else.
Nostradamus, i understand why you've struggled at the beginning but if you give up and don't play this game, it will only be your loss, not anyone else, even proximity. He's not paid money when you play the game :) The best thing he may get is an AGS award and i'm not sure if the game will get any. According to me, it must get at least 4 awards but there's still so much time till the end of year and the AGS awards are kinda unpredictable. I remember what happened to Reactor 09.
Anyway, talking about the game, this is the best AGS game i've ever seen. I've never seen such animations, puzzles, comedy, background arts... before. This game should be an AGS classic. Of course, this is just my thought.
Telling someone that he is not adventure player is a big insult ? I still don't understand why i can't judge players' level. There must be fair. You are free to criticize my game and i think i have a right to criticize your player level. I'm not rude person, i just want to say my opinion. It should be as normal as game cricitism. Am i right ? I think i can judge players in kind way. I'm very peaceful man, please don't exclude me from AGS community. I love you.
Noone can exclude you from this community unless you want to be excluded
I'm glad to hear this. Thanks
I'd like to point out that the original Secrets of Sultan Kanuni can be downloaded from the bicycle-for-slugs (http://aafiles.bicycle-for-slugs.org/full/Secrets%20of%20Sultan%20Kanun.rar) AGS archive. I tried it a little bit because I was confused by the introduction sequence of the sequel (Nostradamus wants me to stop the USA from getting hold of a pair of golden shoes? Huh?), and I can see great improvement between the two games. Good work, Proximity!
With regard to the first puzzle, I agree that it's a bit unforgiving. I was able to flash through the death scene by holding down ESC, and I noticed the sofa chair on the fourth or fifth attempt, so it wasn't such a big deal for me, but if you don't push the chair the game is over very quickly.
I don't like the idea that players are supposed to solve puzzles by noticing which objects aren't part of the background. That may work in some cases (in the same room it's obvious that the pliers can be picked up, for example), but the chair looks a lot like any other part of the background, and you would have to look pretty hard to notice that it doesn't have a shadow (especially if you're stressing because of the timer). As a more general point, the puzzle shouldn't be to detect how the game has been put together, it should be to figure out how Ali can best escape from the American agents. Ideally, a player should be so involved in the game that he doesn't think about backgrounds, sprites, characters or objects at all.
I consider myself a real adventure gamer, and scoff at the notion that people who finish every game they try are at a "higher level" than me as players. I think an important part of being passionate about adventure games is to have standards, as well as likes and dislikes. I love adventure games too much to go on playing an adventure game that sucks. There's not enough time in my life to play even every good adventure game, so why should I waste time on the bad ones?
Although I agree with Nostradamus on most of his points, he should still relax.
Finally, how can you say you didn't have time to beta test or spellcheck? There's no deadline for AGS releases! If you had spent two more weeks on spellchecking and bug fixes no one would have been impatient with you. After all the work you must have put into the game, I don't understand why you would skip a small task like that at the end. It makes such a huge difference. Now the game has fine graphics, a story that sounds quite exciting, and pretty clever puzzles, but the text is full of mistakes and poor English. It really detracts from the experience, and doesn't do the rest of this excellent game justice. It's so easy to find people to do spellchecking and fix translations, too, because pretty much anyone who it fluent and literate in English can do it.
I urge you to get the text fixed as soon as possible, and to not release your next game until you've had it checked by an English speaker.
Hi Snarky, first let me thank you for being such a careful member. I see you've red most of messages in thread before replying.
Looking from your angle of view, it's impossible to agree with you. May be Nostradamus was right on some issues but he was too offensive and this made him wrong. My real mistake is first game was too easy and i wanted to make something real hard this time. Because of that, i may lose control of difficulty of the game. I guarantee you that third game will have more balanced difficulty.
About beta testing and grammar checking, i know AGS doesn't have deadline for releases. However, i didn't have time for that not because of deadline. I must finish the game as soon as possible because of my personnal issues. Although i tried to make very simple sentences to avoid grammar mistakes, you showed me i still made some mistakes. I'm so sorry to reduce your enjoyment of the game.
I will work harder to make better games and English. May be i should start to join English courses to improve my English. Thanks for your comment.
Quotehe was too offensive and this made him wrong.
*He*?
At any rate - now I actually got to play it, and since I had played Kanuni 1 (and, frankly, hadn't liked it - a particularly nasty bug made me restart it), I was quite surprised - it's a big step further in many directions, so congratulations for that, you're on the right track. However, the next step in your personal evolution should really be understanding that using *arcade sequences with very little hints* and *sliding puzzles* and whatnot don't necessarily mean the game is longer or *more difficult in a good way*. Arcade sequences with little hints are just frustrating - sliding puzzles and etc just detract from the game's immersion, especially since they're overused to death.
Overall - marked improvement over the first game. Keep at it, and don't ignore some of the input here. If people got upset, then understand what made them upset. You *don't* want to make your players upset, so whenever one of them *is*... the customer is always right in this situation.
EDIT - Still playing, and found a perfect illustration of what I mean. The 5 programmer doors, which lead to puzzles. The speed at which the character/tiles/whatever move in the puzzles is excruciatingly slow. If you really want to dedicate a section of your game to brain-teasers-which-everyone-is-fed-up-with-by-now, at least make it all faster. Like, instantaneous. Or allow us to press ESC to make the character/tiles/whatever teleport to their destination.
Quote from: proximity on Thu 05/07/2007 09:31:51
Looking from your angle of view, it's impossible to agree with you. May be Nostradamus was right on some issues but he was too offensive and this made him wrong. My real mistake is first game was too easy and i wanted to make something real hard this time. Because of that, i may lose control of difficulty of the game. I guarantee you that third game will have more balanced difficulty.
People get upset on the Internets, that's just the way it is. You do so yourself. I agree that Nostradamus can be abrasive, but he wasn't really being particularly offensive as far as I can tell. If you feel you've learned more about how to design your next game from the exchange, that's a positive outcome. In the future, inviting people to beta test your games may allow you to reap the benefit without the forum fights. ;)
QuoteAbout beta testing and grammar checking, i know AGS doesn't have deadline for releases. However, i didn't have time for that not because of deadline. I must finish the game as soon as possible because of my personnal issues. Although i tried to make very simple sentences to avoid grammar mistakes, you showed me i still made some mistakes. I'm so sorry to reduce your enjoyment of the game.
Alright, fair enough I guess. Good on you for completing such a major project in the first place. I hope you'll still make the text available so people can make an improved translation. It should be pretty simple for you to do. I'm pretty picky about spelling and grammar, and not every player will care as much about it as I do, but the rest of the game is so polished that it's a shame to let this one aspect seem unprofessional.
Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Thu 05/07/2007 10:33:15
Arcade sequences with little hints are just frustrating - sliding puzzles and etc just detract from the game's immersion, especially since they're overused to death.
I don't know Nostradamus he or she. I don't have to. I don't have to know your sex either.
So you're saying that arcade sequences is frustrating, so sliding puzzles are. You leave me very small choices. So, i should make " combine'em all in inventory" or "use inventory on hotspot" or " lego puzzles " or "password puzzles" in my next game ?
Can you be more spesific what kind of puzzles you like ? You may also give me new puzzle ideas. But i'm not willing to make "combine" and "use inventory on hotspot " puzzles often. Because, you can see them in all games and they are about to be cliche. I want to make something very special and untried before.
Quote from: Snarky on Thu 05/07/2007 10:33:15
Alright, fair enough I guess. Good on you for completing such a major project in the first place. I hope you'll still make the text available so people can make an improved translation. It should be pretty simple for you to do. I'm pretty picky about spelling and grammar, and not every player will care as much about it as I do, but the rest of the game is so polished that it's a shame to let this one aspect seem unprofessional.
Yeah, i am still planning to upload the game text for translators and grammar checkers. May be, your approach is going to be different when you play the fixed grammar version if you still want to ;D
Now, i want to criticize you generally. Sometimes i feel that i'm criticized unfairly. Sometimes i think you compare my game with Broken Sword 3 or similar types of it. But you know you should criticize it compare to other amateur free AGS games. Because i know what my game is. I'm also player and i played most of popular AGS games. I think this game is technically outclassed from most of AGS games. Especially graphics and animations. Graphics are not distorted photographs or real photographs. They are not stolen from the internet. 2 months spent to make all animations. Graphs and animations even can't be compared with 7 awards winner game "Apprentice 2". Mine is much better :)
Why am i telling this ? I sometimes read your comments about other completed games and i'm so surprised . You are typing so positive comments about bad games. Actually you can do it, but if you say those games are good, mine should be excellent. If my game is bad, those games should be worst game in the world. I can't give you those games' names because i don't want to start another fight. But i want some justice and balanced comments.
When you say my game's graphics bad, please don't say any game has awful graphics " very nice ".
I'm not telling this to Rui and Snarky. No offense. Just generally.
QuoteI don't know Nostradamus he or she. I don't have to. I don't have to know your sex either.
You misunderstand me. I was implying it was not Nostradamus that got offensive, or at least, not only Nostradamus.
QuoteSo you're saying that arcade sequences is frustrating, so sliding puzzles are.
Nope. I'm saying that arcade sequences without enough hints are frustrating.
Spoiler
It's very frustrating that you have to set up the whole Dino-trap BEFORE you know there's a Dino around, with no reason or hints about it. Also frustrating that if you DO, you end up back outside the HQ - and say goodbye to any other programmer's door puzzle you've solved. I won't even go into the very first puzzle of the game, we've been over it already.
And I'm saying that surely enough people have played enough games to groan when they see sliding puzzles and puzzles with levers and whatnot (and the whole "cross the river riddle"? please, everyone knows that by now). Mostly they just artificially prolong gameplaying time, in a boring way.
Mind you, your implementation of those puzzles is not too badly made:
Spoiler
The jigsaw's interface was very bad. You have to put it, then you have to rotate it, and it was always unclear whether the cursor was on just the right place to click, sometimes it was on the other square and there I go, pick it up again, put it where it should obviously go, and rotate it again. This is boring. Boring is a no-no.
And it did make sense, in a way, that there were puzzles behind the programmer's doors, but again - SPEED IT ALL UP. It's bad enough that we have to stop the story in order to solve some puzzles.
Because yeah, the story stops. That's my personal gripe with these puzzles - when you solve them, the story stops for no particular reason, and mostly the puzzles themselves are puzzles just for the sake of puzzles, not for the sake of story. Which is what happened in your game.
QuoteI want to make something very special and untried before.
Kudos to you. But in order to do that, you must realize that what you've actually *done* this time is something that everyone's already seen before. So, you failed in what you wanted. And you'll have to accept it in order to move on and get to do something special and untried. You want an example of something special and untried, try Purgatorio. It's got a very interesting letter-keypad puzzle, that needed only a little more clarification in order to be a good balance between challenging/frustrating.
QuoteSo, i should make " combine'em all in inventory" or "use inventory on hotspot" or " lego puzzles " or "password puzzles" in my next game ?
Make puzzles that don't stop the story dead in its tracks. And don't use overused formulas - the jigsaw, the sliding tiles, the levers/platforms and the river-crossing are very old stuff, not presented in a new enough way to keep the player interested (read: way too SLOW).
Re your final paragraphs: first off, your graphics aren't better than Apprentice 2. They're a different style, and even so, all the characters look the same in pose and posture, and they move awkwardly, and there's things like the glass sphere on your head that during animations stays somewhere above your head while you push that rock. Your graphics are 3D, but they're not better, not in my opinion - someone else may disagree, and they've a right to, but you brought it up: Apprentice 2 has gorgeous graphics, beautiful animations. Your graphics are stiff and nice.
Now, gamemakers have certain attitudes towards their games. Some are so obviously first-timers that you have to give them some slack. Some are so obviously trying to do great - and have some GREAT things going for them despite their lack of experience - that you have to mention the bad but focus on the good. And some gamemakers, and some games, appear to have a very high opinion of themselves. Well, when that happens, they're just bluntly put to the test, and praise and mockery will arise in similar quantities.
You'll notice I didn't post in your Kanuni 1 thread. Because I didn't like the game at all. But it was your first game, or close to, and it showed, so I thought I'd give you a break. But now you've come a long way, and now I can tell you all the things you're ready to hear and improve.
But I don't really want to anymore, because of your argument with Nostradamus. That's another thing. Take a position like that, and it's unlikely that people will focus on the good of your game. Why should they, when they know that's how you're going to react?
I didn't make myself clear. Those bad games weren't first games.I can't still give names of games. I remember you didn't comment on my first game. I appreciate it and again, no offense, i didn't mean you. Just generally. You're respective member and your comments are important for me.
Apprentice 2 graphs isn't better tham mine. Main character looks sticky when walking. Walking animation is too restricted. But i agree some of animations in game is perfect. My graphs are better than it :) If you say you like cartoon style drawings, you're right. May be i should make cartoon style in my next game to make you love it
Hmmm i haven't played Purgatorio yet. It can give me new puzzle ideas.
Actually, Apprentice II is made with 2D graphics, drawn in a fresh way that we don't always see every day, and so forth. No offense, but your game had this sort of plain feel to it. It's nothing I haven't seen a million times before in other, older games. The art style COULD work if you worked to make the 3D look something like Scratches does.
Now, I know that's practically impossible for an indie freeware developer to do, which is why I think it's always better to stick to 2D rather than 3D. Some games, like Alone in the Nightmare and Prodigal, have HL1 and 3D Studio Max locations (respectively), but what makes Prodigal look better than that game is the mixture of 2D and 3D, which I also think might make your game look a little better.
In the end, you aren't the best artist, so maybe you should have someone work on the graphics while you work on the more important things (coding, exterminating bugs, script writing, fixing typos, the usual). That's what Trisk did for Prodigal, and look at how awesome the comic-book-style cut-scenes are!
I know i'm not the best artist. I also know 2d drawing is a lot harder than 3d. Because you have to arrange true perspective, shading and shadows in your drawing to look nice. In 3d, those are calculated by computer. You just draw some vertexes and cover them with textures. You leave the rest to computer to render and you gain some beautiful graphics. The hardest part of 3d is to draw human head.
I always wanted to draw graphics like Rise of the Hidden Sun or Forgotten Element. Those absolutely looks good and reminds us older Lucas games. But i see that you must be real artist to draw nice 2d graphics. That's why i changed my platform to 3d. However, 3d drawings take more time than 2d. I'm okay with that. I will make everything 3d in my next game. May be i can use cartoon renderer to have Broken Sword 2 style graphics :)
I insist this game's graphs are better than App 2. Be reasonable, App 2's resolution was 320*240 :P Compare them on FULL SCREEN !
I've been playing it and I think your game is really great. I just wanted to check if it would be ok if I made a short parody version of it as a homage?
QuoteI insist this game's graphs are better than App 2. Be reasonable, App 2's resolution was 320*240 Compare them on FULL SCREEN !
If you think higher-res automatically means better graphics, you're using the wrong engine and are posting on the wrong forum, mingling with the wrong community.
Quote from: Jesus Juice on Sat 07/07/2007 09:43:30
I've been playing it and I think your game is really great. I just wanted to check if it would be ok if I made a short parody version of it as a homage?
Of course you can do it. I would be happy :)
Rui, if this is all about soul, why are we working hard to make beautiful graphics ? I should turn back to MS Paint then. It's very easy and takes small time.
I've had enough of this whole discussion.
Proximity, do whatever you want. Either you've been missing all the points all along deliberately or you just don't care. This game is a marked improvement over your first one, but I doubt you'll go far from here.
Quote from: proximity on Fri 06/07/2007 09:34:42
Now, i want to criticize you generally. Sometimes i feel that i'm criticized unfairly. Sometimes i think you compare my game with Broken Sword 3 or similar types of it. But you know you should criticize it compare to other amateur free AGS games. Because i know what my game is. I'm also player and i played most of popular AGS games. I think this game is technically outclassed from most of AGS games. Especially graphics and animations.
Why am i telling this ? I sometimes read your comments about other completed games and i'm so surprised . You are typing so positive comments about bad games. Actually you can do it, but if you say those games are good, mine should be excellent. If my game is bad, those games should be worst game in the world. I can't give you those games' names because i don't want to start another fight. But i want some justice and balanced comments.
When you say my game's graphics bad, please don't say any game has awful graphics " very nice ".
I'm not telling this to Rui and Snarky. No offense. Just generally.
The only aspect of your game that I have criticized is the quality of the English translation, and I certainly never said that your graphics were bad (quite the opposite). Neither did anyone else, as far as I can see: everyone has said that the graphics are good.
You can't just compare the feedback different games get as if it could tell you which games people like more, because it's different people who respond in the different threads, and because the comments usually take into account the skill and experience of the creator, and the effort put into it. So some games will be criticized "as if we were comparing it to Broken Sword 3" (not a great game, by the way), while others will be measured by a much laxer standard.
Quote from: proximity on Fri 06/07/2007 09:34:42
Graphics are not distorted photographs or real photographs. They are not stolen from the internet. 2 months spent to make all animations. Graphs and animations even can't be compared with 7 awards winner game "Apprentice 2". Mine is much better :)
Quote from: proximity on Fri 06/07/2007 10:59:34
Apprentice 2 graphs isn't better tham mine. Main character looks sticky when walking. Walking animation is too restricted. But i agree some of animations in game is perfect. My graphs are better than it :) If you say you like cartoon style drawings, you're right. May be i should make cartoon style in my next game to make you love it
Quote from: proximity on Sat 07/07/2007 08:19:14
I insist this game's graphs are better than App 2. Be reasonable, App 2's resolution was 320*240 :P Compare them on FULL SCREEN !
I
think you are joking about the graphics being better than
Apprentice II. If that's true, I'd say it's time to end the joke. Yeah, your graphics are good, but they're not even close to
App 2. You have obviously spent a lot of time on them and done a really careful job, but you're still an amateur, while bigbrother is an artist. The argument that higher resolution and more animation frames automatically make the graphics superior is a lot like saying that a big painting is better than all smaller ones, or that anyone who paints realistically is better than Picasso. It simply misses the point.
Don't worry about it. It's not a competition, and there are different ways for games to be great.
Apprentice II has excellent graphics and music. Another game, like
Prodigal, isn't nearly as pretty, but is excellent in other respects. You can find your own way to make a great game, in your own style and with your own strengths. Use all the praise you've gotten for encouragement, and use the criticism to improve. Good luck on your next title. I'm looking forward to it!
I know you've just criticized translation. I just said it generally. You're right. Some games has tolerance from members. I will try to get used to it. I can't remember the name of the site but there is an adventure game site and it previews all AGS games. Its author is very strict. He writes very bad comments nearly about all AGS games. I've read first game's comment and shocked. After reading it second time i liked it. He was too cruel and making fun of it but i really liked it :) I want him to join AGS forums :D May be he is member but doesn't write anything.
I wasn't joking about comparing but i think i'm misunderstood. I can't say anything about its art style. It's perfect. I just wanted to say there is wrong perspective and shading in backgrounds. It's not a big deal , just forget it. I just gave an example. It should be Ben Jordan, too.
About animations, i think the more animations are, the better the game. Noone want to see 1 frame picking up animation rather than 50 frames for example. My animations may look same pose but they are like swarm and this make the game good quality. I will keep on this way in my next game with 3d animations. It makes the game size bigger but it's worth.
It must be a competition. Why ? Because, Apprentice or any other games' authors should realize that they must make better games, otherwise they will be forgotten. We must give them that feeling to force them to make much better games. Competition is a good thing and it's always beneficial for players. The more competitive developers, the better games. Am i too passionate ?
Quote from: proximity on Sat 07/07/2007 17:47:55
Competition is a good thing and it's always beneficial for players. The more competitive developers, the better games. Am i too passionate ?
Competition would most certainly be beneficial to players, as you say, if quality is desired over quantity, but this would probably discourage many aspiring, less competitive game authors. To my understanding this forum's purpose is mainly to serve as a community for those who use AGS to create games, people like yourself. I'd bet this is just a hobby, not a job for most of you. Of course there's always MAGS and the dedicated competitions and activities forum to facilitate friendly competition.
Sorry about going off topic with this. I haven't played your game, and can not comment on it at this time.
You're right. Less competitive authors may be discouraged but i don't think they may be effected much. As you said, most of us doing this as hobby. Friendly competitions wouldn't hurt anyone.
Quote from: proximity on Thu 31/05/2007 17:35:20
http://sosk2.coolbluegames.com/sosk2.rar
http://sosk2.coolbluegames.com/walkthrough.htm
You should replace the "index.html" file at http://sosk2.coolbluegames.com by your own file. Admit that it's nicer to find a real website when entering "sosk2.coolbluegames.com" than having to type a full URL pointing to the download archive or the walkthrough...
Also, you said in another topic that the translation file is available for download, but...
where ?
The host doesn't belong to me so i don't want to mess around. Another issue you talk about is solved :)
The game's reviewed by the most popular online game magazine of Turkey. www.merlininkazani.com People speak Turkish may look at :D