Alice the Ork

[Squinky]

I like this pic okay, but was looking for any tips. I need work on women I know, so any tips there would be goodness....

Also, I am currently coloring this, but I think it would be neat to work on a black and white vectorized style. I've heard you can do this with Adobe Illustrator (I think Penny arcade does this), anybody here know anything about this? I am mostly wanting to have cleaner lines, a more professional look.

And I mostly posted this pic because I have recently kinda injured my hand, and it was nice to see I could still, slowly draw.

[Domino]

Squinky, looking good. You mentioned you are currently coloring this drawing. This will be a kick-ass image when full of color, to bring some life into it.

You have a certain drawing style which pleases me, and that makes me happy.

Happy Drawing. 

Shawn

[Kinoko]

It's a good pic! I cant really find anything specific that leaps out at me to crit.

Overall though, I would say that it just needs a little more oomph. Try to make the pose a tad more dynamic, keeping in mind the silhouette of the character (one of the greatest tips I ever heard was making the silhouette look cool and well defined). Of course, it's not like she's posing, and I'm guessing she's not meant to be "cool", but still.

I'm not sure if this is a problem or not  but Im slightly worried about how "busy" the picture is. I know it's obviously supposed to be that way but I think if you make say, the details on the arm a little tighter and left a few other lines out here and there, it might be an improvement. I'm... really not sure on that point though, just a feeling I get.

[Squinky]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

A quick question for Kinoko:

I'm not sure if this is a problem or not  but Im slightly worried about how "busy" the picture is. I know it's obviously supposed to be that way but I think if you make say, the details on the arm a little tighter and left a few other lines out here and there, it might be an improvement. I'm... really not sure on that point though, just a feeling I get.

Are you saying I need to simplify the picture, lose the scattered shading/cross lines, or differentiate with thicker and lighter lines in different areas?

I appreciate the feedback, just didn't quite wrap my head around what you were saying.

I agree on the posing, it's nothing spectacular. Didn't really turn out as I would have liked.

Also, here is my quick colorization (base colors, for now) complete with crappy gradient backdrop...

[Kinoko]

a-HA! Thats what I was trying to think of but I couldn't figure it out. The pic would look MUCH better if you varied the line thicknesses.

[Squinky]

Thats what I have been thinking lately, I thought I might be able to do it more polished with a vector type program like adobe illustrator....But I'm not sure of it's capabilitys...

I guess I'll just have to start practicing doing it by hand then, although I am a little leary of messing it up...

[MrColossal]

photocopy the pencils or trace it onto another sheet of paper with a light box or against a window. Then practice practice practice.

I think you have to figure out how the line variation works in real life then you can apply it to vectors, because so much just happens when using a brush or pen and it's so much quicker tha tweaking nodes in Illustrator.

[Kinoko]

Yep, agreed. I never do things like that with vector, just with a pen. It's GREAT fun once you get started.

[Igor]

Very nice pic!
I think you already got all the best advices on how to improve it..
I'm interested- how do you plan poses? Do you first draw a quick sketch and later add details.. or do you start drawing details right away? If later, that explains a bit stiff look. Try to plan poses first and when you are happy with them, start adding facial features, clothes, ornaments..
The biggest problem here is, it's not completely clear what she is doing.. Is she resting/relaxed (that suggests her right hand) or is she in "action"?

[Wretched]

Nice, a cyborc, wish I'd thought of that.

[Squinky]

I took some advice and read some hard to find tutorials....I'm still not sure what the formula is....but I am trying some stuff out, see below...It is pretty fun, but I ganked my hand up good, so it kinda hurts heh...

Igor: I tend to sketch out an idea of what I want on scratch paper, then I commit it to a new clean sheet. Draw the head first, then I start the framework and usaully detail the head next, unless I feel there are more defining things to do first...

She was supposed to be looking ahead toward a possible confrontation, leaning casually on a destroyed rock wall. And the fact that I have to explain it means I have failed, heh...



This picture was based off an ags member also, although I tend to go my own way  when using photo reference so I'm sure it's unrecognizable...

[Kinoko]

Better! Line thickness variation makes a real difference...

This may be just me so I don't necessarilly recommend this method, but I go insane with line thicknesses ^_^ They're like a drug for me, I start and I can't stop. Lines get thicker all over the place!

[esper]

Does the character on his pauldron mean anything? It looks kinda like a double "yen" figure.

Anyway, I kinda like Alice better, as the second guy is really busy and there isn't much depth to the cigarette-lighting arm (it blends in with the shirt... can't really tell where one starts and the other begins. This is a big problem I have with my own art). Except for the fact that she looks more like she's sighing apathetically rather than "getting ready for a confrontation" as you said, she looks really well done. You mentioned professionalism, as well: take a look at the art in Steve Jackson's "GURPS" manual, or in the older manuals for FASA's ShadowRun... the art looks extremely similar.

[Igor]

I like the new one.. thickhin lines are certainly an improvement!

She was supposed to be looking ahead toward a possible confrontation, leaning casually on a destroyed rock wall.

i think it could have worked as part of comic, with next frame explaining what is going on.. but as a single illustration, it gives too little information.
My main complain is, that it looks like character is still moving and viewer has no idea what she will gonna end up doing. For example: if this would be animation, it'd be inbetween, not key-frame.. if that makes any sense
i did 2 quickies how you could pose her, so it would be more obvious what she is doing..

[2ma2]

Great improvements in the second pic. You gain much by bolding the outline around the 'silhouette', but you can adapt this to anything you which to define against a busy backdrop. For instance; the jaw/beard and his hand infront of his bod could also gain from bolding the outline. Ofcourse, you can tweak this with having even more bold outlines of the whole silhouette, semibold of objects within the silhouette to define, and tinier lines to make details of no "bigger importance".

Does this make any sense? It's hella hard to explain in writing!

[Squinky]

Whew, glad it's getting better then....

Esper: The character on his shoulder there is the character for "Nuyen" the currency the use in shadowrun...Which is funny really since you mentioned shadowrun...I've kinda always dug Shadowrun...

Igor: I get what you are saying. I think I will definately re-draw her in one, if not both of your poses, thank you for the help!

2ma2: I do get what you are saying (I think) and it was muchly needed. I will definately try to put that advice into play on the next pic...Thanks again all...

[Squinky]

Okay, heres my new try with Igors pose....I kinda had a rough time inking due to an unsteady hand. Was driving me nuts, so I don't really feel all the lines are as confident as they should have been...

[Barbarian]

Squinky, ya got some real natural talent there. Really, I like your work... and Alice is hot stuff.. heheh   

Anyways, perhaps I'm not one to to give art advice, but from what I see with your recent pic of Alice, to me it all looks great.

The only thing that jumps out at me that looks a little odd is mainly about the barrel of the gun she's holding... it almost looks wilted or sagging a bit, I mean, the barrel doesn't quite look straight, especially the bottom line of the barrel, and the overall thickness of the barrel to me looks like a little too thin.  Wilted and thin, perhaps Alice has been shooting off her gun a bit too often.     Anyways, really, keep up the great work... I envy your artistic skillz.

[Stefano]

This is a nice work! I like this medieval fantasy X cyber future idea. I confess that I cannot see "unsteady hand"s efects on your work. 
The only thig I would change is the shape of her head. Although she's an orc, she's looking a bit too masculine because of the jaw and chin line. Here's what I'm talking about.
(quick silly paintover)

She's a girl afer all, right? 

[Squinky]

Barbarian:
Thank you, man! I think the barrel is a good example of my unsteady hand, and I totally see what you are saying, thanks for the input.

Stefano:
Thanks for the compliment!
I have some issues with women's faces being a little too masculine, I think I can "get away with it" on this picture because of the Ork thing, but I know it's something I need to work on...I really have a hard time with this issue...

[2ma2]

Nice orcish features there, but I think you could vary the linewidth even more to increase the distinguishing. Ofcourse, something as obvious as coloring does this aswell

Also, make sure your lines are cutting eachother off when dealing with objects infront of others. You do this well in some places and not so well in others. For instance, the ear and jewelery in it: good. The hand contra boobies: not so good. Basically, when an outline of a covering object does not cut off but more or less complete the line of the object underneath, so decrease readability making it more abstract to pattern like. Ergo, this is not a problem in cybernetic details or patterns on clothes, but more problematic in defining limbs and silhouettes. for instance, the crak in the rock goes down and joins in with the gun almost precisly in the diagonal of the aiming thinge, and the other crack does the same to a detail on the gun. It might be wise to let the crack reach the gun onto a defined line such as the barrel, and let it continue below it.

And no worries about masculine, an orc should NOT be feminine or God forbid, attractive

[IM NOT TEH SPAM]

I think the way you drew her face in the first one captures the femenine-but-orcish features, but the second one's chin is kinda creepy.  Stefano's edit does add femenine features, but it's a little too "pretty" for it.  IMO you should fix the chin (I know the way she's holding the cigarette, but...), and the gun barrel almost looks like it's smoking with the crack in the wall nearby.

[Igor]

Great changes! i love new "bad-ass" look on her face The pic has now much more character and is more dynamic and readable.. love it

[Squinky]

Thank you for all the feedback guys, I've been fooling around with it and think things are doing better....Heres one of my pics I've got finished....based off the pic of me in the photo thread holding a sword...


And another I just finished up...

[big brother]

It would be worth your time to explore a more gestural style and get used to expressing shapes with more depth. As it is now, every line and little detail seems to have equal importance and they all vie for the viewer's attention. Marvel artists always tried to simplify panels by making the outlines heavy and blocking in the shadows.

You need to step back from your drawing and look at it from a distance often. In the end, it's the impact of the whole that matters, not the little details.

In your latest drawing, the pose seems awkward, like she's floating rather than leaning back against the wall. The proportions need work, too. Her left arm is too short, as is her right thigh. Her neck is too long. Her fingers are all the same length. You might want to cut down on the flair a bit, since it distracts from the figure. The visible eye is very frontal, even at the three-quarters angle.

Figure drawing from live models is invaluable to developing a sense of space, weight, and proportion.

[Andail]

I have to say that most of your figures seem to lack both balance and natural postures. Most of them look like visitors in a cyber-weapon shop, where they proudly model with newly purchased guns and whatnot.
Try to aim for more credible, in-action poses, try to make them express something unique, something that would fit a specific environment, series of events, upcoming events, etc.

Your biggest (and maybe only) strength is your sense of detail and design. But this can't make up for non functional proportions and postures.

One of my absolute favourite artists Benjamin Carre is a master when it comes to cool posing.
http://www.blancfonce.com/galleries.html

It's not really your style, and I don't wish to compare two different artists, I just came to think of his pictures when I saw these figures posing with their weapons.

[Al_Ninio]

Oh my. Thank you, Andail!
I've seen this guy's art on the Sijun forums a few years back and been breaking my head ever since trying to find out who he was. Awesome.

[Stitches]

can we see some of your artwork as a comparison Andail?  Or some actual CONSTRUCTRIVE critique on Squinky's work? 
Like Igor, who showed Squinky some ways to improve his work, show us how YOU would improve upon these works.
You are a moderator, live up to the title.

[DanClarke]

can we see some of your artwork as a comparison Andail?  Or some actual CONSTRUCTRIVE critique on Squinky's work? 
Like Igor, who showed Squinky some ways to improve his work, show us how YOU would improve upon these works.
You are a moderator, live up to the title.

Woah take it easy!

Andail posted links, surely this will give squinky some inspiration or ideas on how to improve? He didn't say 'it's rubbish i dont like it' so i dont see what the problem is.

[IM NOT TEH SPAM]

Easy there, stitches... no one was being insulting to Squinky's work... it was a constructional comment, he told him he needs to work on poses and gave him an example of what he should do.  And he's right, the poses he had on both Alice before were confusing as were the ones he had on his new orcs here. (Tito and Outlaw?  Bah, whatever...)

[Ubel]

Yeah, Andail you bloody n00b! Why do you always have to be starting up these flame wars? Nobody likes you, go away!

( I'm gonna put this smiley here, just in case someone is really so silly they think I was serious here)

On topic:

I really like your drawings. I'm very impressed about the amount of detail in those. And yes, Alice is sooo hot!

If I could draw that good pictures, I wouldn't mind about the poses that much. I'd be just happy if I could draw that good.

[Helm]

hope this helps a bit. It's about center of gravity and character placement and perspective and I hope the image clears more things up than I could with words. Try to not start with a character in limbospace. Try to make a good perspective scheme for him, try to think where the camera is looking from, what height, eye hight? knee height? bird's eye? remembeing the horison is on eye level ( when the camera also is on eye level) helps establish some rules about all of that stuff. The leg as I edited it is now properly grounded, and provides support. The sorta perspective you were using for the background was very very off.

the anatomy here otherwise is pretty sold, although I moved the head in closer to the torso. I like this piece a lot.

Try to distribute your detail less evenly. Don't fear white space. Things that are detailed catch the eye more and that's a useful tool. Try to vary your line widths according to the curve you're following in the inking.

[Andail]

Stitches, try to calm down, you're being offensive for no reason.

If I sounded harsh, it doesn't mean I wasn't being constructive. If I hadn't considered Squinky's artwork very promising in some areas, I wouldn't stress how good they could be if he improved some other areas.

Also, yeah, I could illustrate how they actually could be improved, which is something I do on regular basis in the critics lounge, and which is something I have done for Squinky before (I have a distinct memory of doing a paint-over in the past.) But now I lack the time, unfortunately.

[Stitches]

just so you know Andail, i am quite calm.
i made a promise to myself that i would not reply more to this thread unless i had more creative input to place within this thread(as that is the point). BUT i had to put two more cents in.  You can not judge my attitude through text.  Most of my critique upon your critique was this statement from you:
"Your biggest (and maybe only) strength"
This is not constructive, this is insulting.
As for input on this thread, i wanna give a thank you to Helm and Igor for helping my brother with his technique.

[Andail]

I'm used to people being able to handle constructive criticism, even though it may be expressed a bit harsh. However, I'm not used to having their smaller brothers bursting in and making a scene.

To say that someone has a strength in detail and design is not an insult. When I say "only", I meant in the context of other things I've mentioned, namely composition, human postures, proportions etc. I didn't say he sucked at that either, but I said they weren't his strengths.

[Helm]

Stitches, relax. Andail's post offered critique. If your brother didn't feel insulted to the point of complainage, why did you feel the urge to post in his defense? There's nothing to defend, this is critique and that's how it goes.

[loominous]

Facial mods:



I think the facial features are holding the drawings back the most. The face is the first thing we look at, and if we don't buy it, we'll look very critically on the rest, and vice versa.

I hate studying anatomy, so I'm reluctant to recommend it, but perhaps look some books on faces, and do a couple of eye studies. My recommendations once again goes to Andrew Loomis' books, which focus on understanding of shape/mass, which will lead to solid understanding and independence from references.

Not only the best books on the subjects, imo - though I havn't really looked at many other - they're available for free (they're not printed anymore) at:

http://www.saveloomis.org/

[MrColossal]

personally I would have a hard time buying your edit, loominous, from the setting she's in and the clothes she's wearing and all that I wouldn't really buy a pretty face on her neck. Especially one as emotionless as the one you drew, but obviously it's just an edit and you probably did it up quick, just wanted to say.

[loominous]

personally I would have a hard time buying your edit, loominous, from the setting she's in and the clothes she's wearing and all that I wouldn't really buy a pretty face on her neck. Especially one as emotionless as the one you drew, but obviously it's just an edit and you probably did it up quick, just wanted to say.

Well:

I) I'm assuming that Squinky is going for a comic book kind of style, and though I havn't read many, protagonists with attractive facial features seems like the standard, regardless of the setting.

II) I don't see how a trashy setting/clothes would have anything to do with facial features.

III) I deliberately do attractive faces in edits since it's usually easier to "uglify", rather than beautifying. The problem many have is that they don't know how to create natural ideal looks, and if you don't know how to do this, then you don't have much control when it comes to determining the look of your characters, and have to rely on good fortune.

IV) My edit was mainly to show how more realistic features usually look from that angle. If Squinky knows this already and is deliberately going for the style featured, then he can just ignore it, but chances are in cases like these, that the style is based on limitations rather than preferences.

V) I don't really see how comments on edits serve much purpose, unless they'res from the maker of the original image. If the maker likes something in an edit, he/she'll include it, and vice versa. The knowledge of what forum member X thinks about an edit is as interesting as replies consisting of a smiley.

[MrColossal]

I apologize if because it was directed at you, you took it as an insult or something but it was really a general comment.

How about this then:

I personally feel that because of the setting and taking the character into account, the face is fine. The character doesn't live a happy life I imagine and the face adds character.

My comment was to point out that when drawing something, taking the whole image into consideration changes how each part is rendered and for me the face is fine.

Squinky can take what I wrote to you and like it or not just like he can take other crit and do the same.

I was just making a comment, if you think my comment was useless then I see your point 5 as pointless flame bait.

So thanks for the insult.

edit:

also, I don't know why you chose to respond to my post and call it useless when there are tons of posts in other threads of people saying your edit is better than the original and how awesome your edit is and eye popping smileys. I think those are more useless than a post from someone who thought he could have a friendly chat. Oh well.

[Squinky]

Thanks for your comments all, I'll try to incorporate your advice in my future works. The cool little dealy Helm did on my pic was a nice little way for me to understand some stuff, so thanks tons man. Thanks everybody...

I was happy with this one because of the main guy "Earl", but the ghouls just mucked it up, so I will seriously have to erase some stuff in photoshop, or just trash it....As always any crits would be great...

Edit---

Here's my newest one, took me forever to sketch, and I can't bear to ink it right now, since I had such bad luck with that other one above. I drew it to work on my poses, and I think it turned out okay, cep't for the heavily armed stripper, she seems stiff...couldn't figure that one out....It is just a sketch still too, so most of the wacky lines will disapear....

[Helm]

mind if I ink parts of this to show you a different way to ink?

[Squinky]

Dude, go to town! That would be frigging awesome...

[Helm]

Hello. Here's ideas and stuff.

Before I talk about inking and edits, a few thoughts. This is comic art. Squinky doesn't need fine art critique. It's good to read loomis, but the skills you'll get there do not have to directly do with the art in this thread. This is comic art, and you should recieve comic art themed critique. Your anatomy isn't that lacking that you need to turn to books to get better at it. Perspective, maybe, but your anatomy will get better by sticking at it. Hell, it's gotten better in this here thread. Your poses DO need to become less wooden and more natural, though, but that has to do with studying reality and then studying exaggeration of reality, not loomis.

loominous, I find your edit basically useless in this case, which is uncharacteristic of you because it is not an awesome version ( if, your version ) of the art edited, as you usually do. I have lots of bones to pick with people who edit and awesomify radically, because, as cool as it is to see it happen, it doesn't help the person being edited. An edit should be one, two steps ahead of the person's skill, otherwise you're just discouraging them and going 'this is how good you'll never be.' However, this is not what you did in this thread. You simply turned an idiosynchartic face, very very fitting to the setting, to a pretty face that is fitting to other things. Is it bad to outline that your edit might not be good? Does it not help you to get that feedback so you can help people with your edits rather than lead them on potentially irrelevant paths?

now, edits about inking. These were done in photoshop, so they're not as good as they would be if they were done in hand. But they serve their purpose. I've blown up a detail to 200% to get finer brushes. Here's what happens:



This is the base image.



This is basic outlining. For some of your work, this might really be enough. notice the variable line widths, NOT too much though, following curves and folds accordingly. You could stop here and I'd be happy. Notice inside curves against straight lines, outside curves against contra curves, contrapost. Your ink work tends to be too 'rounded' not dynamic and edgy enough. Don't be afraid of corners and straight lines, they suit your subject matter. Be VERY wary of a boring curve against the same curve mirrored. Contropost curves. The tattoo is shakily done, but I'm not paying much attention to that for the purposes of the edit.




This is minimal rendering. I'd call this underrendered, personally, but it's a good place to start. There's LITTLE lightining here, but not too much. For quick styles, this is enough. There's more importance placed of developing volume here than on realistic lighting. Generally, for comic art, forget PURE realistic lightning. Leave that to the fine art boys. This is cyberpunk, dude. Stylise, don't get hung up on representing reality.




And there's such a thing as overrendering, as you see. This is too much for me, but others might go up to this, or even further. This is when inkwork begins to resemble charcoal work, where you really block out volume from light and darkness.



Then, don't forget you can also use rasters, or fake rasters, whatever, to pronounce your work. I like doing this after I'm done with inking, because as you'll see on the next step, it gives you the change to rub out speculars and lights with the eraser.



This is what I'm talking about. This is really really too much, but you can see how we got from stage 1 to stage 6, right? Here's the psd if you find it useful to turn layers on and off or whatever. Hope I helped.


http://www.locustleaves.com/render.psd

Don't get hung up on making stuff pretty. This is cyberpunk. You can, and you should work on making a cohesive style that can hold whatever you want to show in your stories. Comic art is not about pretty pictures, it's about cohesive storytelling and good flow and a transparent style that holds everything together.

[Kinoko]

Listen to Helm... brilliant advice.

[loominous]

Helm:

Is it bad to outline that your edit might not be good?

Yes and no, I suppose.

Yes, if the criticism have anything to do with taste. Whether mr Colossal likes her face or not is pointless knowledge as far as I'm concerned, since it's Squinky's taste that matters. For all we know he might've aimed exactly at the style I presented - though I doubt it - and he is in a position to dismiss suggestions as easily as embracing them.

No, if the criticism is on a meta level. Pointing out that the edit may harm the original maker is most relevant.

However, I do think there are limits here. I see critique in the form they're available here as charity. Any charitable activity is good, as long as it doesn't harm anyone. A problem arises when people not contributing starts wasting their energy to criticise the work of the charity workers, instead of spending it on contributing themselves and setting an example. Not only doesn't it aid the person who asked for help, it irritates the charity workers.

I have lots of bones to pick with people who edit and awesomify radically, because, as cool as it is to see it happen, it doesn't help the person being edited.

While I agree on the uselessness of total revamps in many cases, they serve an important purpose in situations like these, where parts of the original is too far from what the editor thinks of as proper, consideringÃ,  the overall style and skill level of the rest of the image. Minor modification won't do well in these cases and the point is to illustrate what area/s can be improved with some briefer studies, which will lift the image radically. It's like the pose issues, major rework would be required, but instead of making a rough sketch like Igor's, I made it in detail.

I don't expect Squinky to look at it and simply get how to draw more conventional facial features, rather to notice the abnormalities and decide based on this whether to study some real faces to obtain a different style, or settle with the current one.

And while one can argue that comic book anatomy/poses/lighting differs from more realistic style, they're simply stretches, and someone who has mastered the former can, with some minor practise, handle the latter, but not vice versa. I don't mean that Squinky should spend years studying anatomy, just spend half an hour or so studying how eyes, for instance, are constructed, and incorporate the knowledge in whatever style he choose to use.

Loomis' books are excellent on this subject, since they show how to construct things using simpler building blocks, rather than just showing neat renders found in most books on anatomy. In retrospect, the latter is what I unfortunately choose to do, but my intention was to lead him to either read Loomis or do other studies where he'd obtain the former.

You simply turned an idiosynchartic face, very very fitting to the setting, to a pretty face that is fitting to other things

I discussed in my former post why I tend to choose more ideal beauty over a more flawed interesting ones in my edits. My edit was meant as a pointer, not as a substitute.

And while the expression/style of the face might fit the overall image to an extent, I doubt that Squinky would choose the style the current style over a more conventional professional comic book one.

The whole "it fits his/her style" argument is flawed imo. While great originality can come out of shortcomings, I think the person should choose a style, not settle with it because the lack of ability to do "better". If I knew that Squinky could draw like, I dunno, Marvel Comic artists, then I'd see no point in my edit, since he had obviously choosen not to go with more conventional faces. But the whole "your style is cool, just go with it" argument only makes sense if "higher" aspirations don't exist, which I doubt is the case.


Mr Colossal:

I don't know why you chose to respond to my post and call it useless when there are tons of posts in other threads of people saying your edit is better than the original and how awesome your edit is and eye popping smileys. I think those are more useless than a post from someone who thought he could have a friendly chat. Oh well.

If a friendly chat was your intent, then I suppose I missed it, as your first post seemed like an unfriendly way to start one. I have no beef with you, but I thought I detected the reverse.

I agree that praising comments on edits are pretty unimportant, but they do serve as encouragement for the editor, so they do have a smaller purpose, though there's a potential backside in that spotlight is redirected from the original maker. So there's a balance to keep up there I suppose.

My comment on your comment was due to the fact that similar comments have irritated me in the past for the reasons I mentioned above in my reply to Helm, and that this practise hadn't been discussed before, very much unlike the praising smiley posts.

Edit: Spelling

[Andail]

I agree with...well, all of you, in different aspects.

At first I was struck at how Loominous presented an edit that was seemingly neglectful towards the original style and concept.
Then again, in general, if you want to be able to skillfully express all kinds of states and emotions, all kinds of looks and characteristics, he is correct in the sense that you should start by pursuing perfection; the ideal. So in a training-ground perspective, Loominous is right. Looking at the finished product, his edit serves no real purpose.

To always take the paintbrush away from the student and complete his work with breathtaking results is something an ordinary art teacher would consider bad pedagogics - it would raise the overall quality in the classroom, but the individual learner might not be able to attain that level, and would possibly be discouraged to continue.
It can sometimes be hard to keep within the boundary of good tutoring, without simply becoming an "art-improvifier".

I do, in contrast to Helm, think that the incorrect anatomy of Squinky's figures really is an obstacle that needs to be overcome. If you could get the anatomy and proportions right, I believe some of the poses would seem more natural by way of mechanics.

Lastly, this is an open forum, and as an editor (even the most acclaimed one) you're not immune to c&c, Loominous. Eric has every right in the world to question your edits. Even if you disagree, you can't say that it is automatically wrong.

[loominous]

Lastly, this is an open forum, and as an editor (even the most acclaimed one) you're not immune to c&c, Loominous. Eric has every right in the world to question your edits. Even if you disagree, you can't say that it is automatically wrong.

I don't really understand how you got this impression. As far as I know, I even made a distinction between what I consider proper and improper critique of other's edits, so it puzzles me how you interpreted this as a categorical rejection of c&c. Considering the amount of criticism I hand out, it would be ridiculously hypocritical if I did.

And while I did state that I didn't like some form of criticism, I don't believe that I made any demands that it should be adopted as a general law for the CL. Though one can always hope.

It can sometimes be hard to keep within the boundary of good tutoring, without simply becoming an "art-improvifier".

A point I wanted to make with my charity analogy was that we can't, and I think shouldn't, place any real expectations on the critique given, as long as it's meant to be constructive.

If we collectively hired an art instructor, we'd be in a position to demand high-class pedagoguish critique. As it is, people contribute with what they can.

As I mentioned, I do believe that some critique can potentially be harmful, and that such should be discouraged, which is why I welcome meta discussions.

Anyway, sorry about hijacking the thread Squinky.

[Helm]

Yes, if the criticism have anything to do with taste. Whether mr Colossal likes her face or not is pointless knowledge as far as I'm concerned, since it's Squinky's taste that matters. For all we know he might've aimed exactly at the style I presented - though I doubt it - and he is in a position to dismiss suggestions as easily as embracing them.

When eric, or myself, or anybody say 'I don't like the face in loominous' edit' we're not talking to you, at least not only to you. There's things you can pick up from this sort of contra-critique, and you should, but we're mainly talking to squinky. We're saying, 'squinky, a part of your audience believes that direction to not be fitting to the type of work we believe you're trying to create. It might not be to your advantage to follow that critique.' Do you understand why this is important, and why it really has little to do with you directly? As you say below and as I explained in my other post, it should be useful to you, being such a prolific editor around here, to know when other people think your edits go south too, but if you don't like hearing that, ok, you don't like it. Won't stop it from happening.

However, I do think there are limits here. I see critique in the form they're available here as charity. Any charitable activity is good, as long as it doesn't harm anyone.

There's fault in your charity analogy. Critique isn't charity. It is offered as such, but it's not ment as such. When someone like you edits something, there's a specific weight attached to your opinion that may steer someone in a specific direction just because you are you and not flukeblake. There's responsibility in an edit, and that's why I rushed to tell squinky to not take the face edit too much into account, to counter-act a bit. Of course the artist should always be presupposedly able to filter the critique he gets and select only the stuff he finds useful from there, but let's not kid ourselves, when someone really good critiques you, you listen, you take freakin' notes. And it's a dissapointment when I for one can spot a great artist giving critique with which I don't agree to a lesser artist. I've been to art school. What we're discussing here has happened numerous times. I've had to argue with teachers that what they're saying to other artists might be wrong, for the sake of the other artists. This is neither special nor a big deal, regardless of the huge posts about it.

A problem arises when people not contributing starts wasting their energy to criticise the work of the charity workers, instead of spending it on contributing themselves and setting an example. Not only doesn't it aid the person who asked for help, it irritates the charity workers.

Drop the charity analogy. We're all learning here. Me here talking to you, I'm learning, you're learning. We're all getting critiqued, even if the critique is about the critique. You're not a magnificent benevolent benefactor of all.

While I agree on the uselessness of total revamps in many cases, they serve an important purpose in situations like these, where parts of the original is too far from what the editor thinks of as proper, considering  the overall style and skill level of the rest of the image. Minor modification won't do well in these cases and the point is to illustrate what area/s can be improved with some briefer studies, which will lift the image radically. It's like the pose issues, major rework would be required, but instead of making a rough sketch like Igor's, I made it in detail.

Just a difference of opinion here, because I found the face to be rocking, even if it's not 'correct' and that's what drew me to the piece anyway, to edit the leg and give it a bit of gravital center. When I saw your edit I went 'no. nope. no no no.' instinctively. You have an opinion, you edited, I have an opinion, I edited, we discussed opinions, it's all good.

And while one can argue that comic book anatomy/poses/lighting differs from more realistic style, they're simply stretches, and someone who has mastered the former can, with some minor practise, handle the latter, but not vice versa. I don't mean that Squinky should spend years studying anatomy, just spend half an hour or so studying how eyes, for instance, are constructed, and incorporate the knowledge in whatever style he choose to use.

Okay.

The whole "it fits his/her style" argument is flawed imo. While great originality can come out of shortcomings, I think the person should choose a style, not settle with it because the lack of ability to do "better". If I knew that Squinky could draw like, I dunno, Marvel Comic artists, then I'd see no point in my edit, since he had obviously choosen not to go with more conventional faces. But the whole "your style is cool, just go with it" argument only makes sense if "higher" aspirations don't exist, which I doubt is the case.

I don't disagree here. I find squinky's art to benefit from smaller scaled steps and critique first, before he's ready to entertain the notion of expanding, style-wise. He's consistently posted cyberpunk pictures, in an - I suspect - comic world of his own, all of which leads me to believe this is his baby, for now. This is what he wants to do. I try to help on this end, not expand and illuminate his mind. I am no art teacher, I've only got humble critique about how to shade, how to structure and the like. Won't be telling anybody to go style-fishing just yet.

[Squinky]

Listen to Helm... brilliant advice.

Agreed, you rock Helm. That really has helped me comprehend some things. Some quick dumb questions though (to anyone who knows):

1. On the line variations you have there where they get thicker in some parts and thinner in some parts, I still don't really get where to do them. I read and re-read your example and others and I just can't understand where to do it...So, I guess I'm asking for further explaination on that, even though I'm sure it is plain to see, I just don't get it yet, I am sorry.

2. I have read somewhere that my lines are called dead-lines, and the ones you used are called live-lines, since they change width during the same stroke. I am using basic pens for inking, a finer tipped sharpie for thick lines and a ball-point like pen for the finer lines...I can't seem to get either to create these "live" lines and really the sharpie is scary because the paper can really soak up the ink if I don't watch myself....Should I be using different things to ink with, and if so any advice?
I really want to go toward experimenting with Helm's tutorial but I'm afraid I will still acheive the same rounded results....

Thanks again everyone!

[Helm]

this is how you ink. no straight lines, no contra curves, one width, shaky, somewhat. What you call dead lines.



this is how you might wanna try to ink. smaller lines for smaller details, stronger lines for contours, widths that follow volume and curve. The idea is, if you're inking a curve, on the most extreme bit of the curve, you'd need the most width, and the more like a straight line it becomes, the smaller the width should be. But there's other things you'll learn about this intuitively. Use a 0.1 pen of good make to do these, or if you're feeling extra awesome, you might want to try a brush with ink. I can't do this. Eric can. Ask him for specifics.



A more complete render.

[loominous]

You're not a magnificent benevolent benefactor of all.

I really have no clue where that came from.

How do you reach the conclusion that I consider myself magnificent?Ã,  Some people praise my edits, something which I can't be held responsible for, and also something which causes me discomfort, knowing how lacking they must seem for people more skilled.

I have an intentional practise of never telling people how the images is should be, I merely offer suggestions on how I would do it, or common practises/theories for achieving certain results/effects.

As critical as I am of other's work, it doesn't even begin to match my scrutinization of my own.

So don't jump to the conclusion that I actually take people's praise to heart. I'm all too well aware of my inabilities.

As you say below and as I explained in my other post, it should be useful to you, being such a prolific editor around here, to know when other people think your edits go south too, but if you don't like hearing that, ok, you don't like it. Won't stop it from happening.

I'm getting tired of the claim that I demand people to follow my preferences. I stated that I didn't like a specific form of critique, but didn't expect it to become a forum rule, so where's the point in pointing out that it won't stop happening? I know it, you know it.

We're saying, 'squinky, a part of your audience believes that direction to not be fitting to the type of work we believe you're trying to create. It might not be to your advantage to follow that critique.'

I suppose I might've been a bit sensitive towards Mr C's post; I'm just sick of people criticising people trying to help instead of helping themselves, and might've read things into his post that wasn't meant to be there.

Oh well.

[Helm]

I really have no clue where that came from.

It comes from the charity line. I don't think I'm doing charity here for example, by trying to help Squinky because I'm becoming better just by putting ideas into words. Not just drawing shit for my own fun, letting it go it's own way, but wanting and achieving to illustrate an exact point of view. I gain a lot from that. I think you do too. The charity parallel is very bad to explain the relationship. Critique is an interactive thing.

As critical as I am of other's work, it doesn't even begin to match my scrutinization of my own.

I think that's good.

I'm getting tired of the claim that I demand people to follow my preferences.

The underlying point here is not that what you like or do not influence what happens. We know that's true. You know it, I know it, you know that I know it and I know that you know it. That's not what I'm talking about. It's the reasoning behind what you find unpleasant that in this case if faulty, so if you're going to not like it, go ahead. You were wrong to lash out to eric in my opinion, that's why I repeated the 'don't like it, deal with it' thing.

I'm just sick of people criticising people trying to help instead of helping themselves

Dunno how much that occurs generally. You might be right. Just this situation here that I am following, it didn't happen. Eric has helped Squinky a lot in the past, he didn't just pop up to attack you.

[DanClarke]

come on guys this is going a little OT. If you want to discuss this surely itd be an idea to start a thread somewhere or PM. I'm only saying this for squinkys sake, as i feel its been hijacked somewhat.

[Squinky]

Helm, thank you. Seriously.

You seem to know excactly what I am going for. I am so going out and buying some pens here....

I have tried using nibs and a brush before, but i't didn't go to far since, as you can see I didn't even know how to do the lines right, regardless of my ability to even use the tools. Nibs sure seem cool though...

[Helm]

Thanks, Dan Clarke.

[MrColossal]

I think a good way to learn line variation is to hit up some old Donald Duck comics or something like that.

The style is totally different of course but the exaggeration of line variation might help you understand, here are some covers but I'll dig up my samples when I get home:

http://www.houseofcomics.com/images/MN801.gif

http://www.tomheroes.com/images/COMIC%20uncle%20scrooge%20211%20prize%20of%20pizarro.jpg

Note the bit under the foot and his eyebrows, along with his belly in the Pizzaro one.

If you're doing line variation with a pen and drawing in the thickness afterwards, you'll notice that if you move onto a nib or a brush [I'd recommend a nib first] that the line variation becomes somewhat natural or at least much easier.

However learning to use a dip pen is a whole other ball of wax.

Loominous:

I'm sorry if you read my post as confrontational, it wasn't ment that way. I was just stating an opinion on the original art. I thought we were all friends on this forum until proven guilty.

[Squinky]

Okay, I managed to find a .02 pen, but that was the best I could do. Heres my shot at it:

This picture was just  a quick doodle I copied out of a clothing catalouge, but I figured I could ink it without fear...I know I totally screwed up the folds on the arm too...

[Helm]

right off the bat for me that is more interesting and dynamic to look at.

[Squinky]

Heres another shot at it. I did a cheesy black drop because I really screwed up the background...Hope its getting better...

Edit--
Just noticed a crappy area on the rifle I was gonna erase, sorry bout that...

[DanClarke]

much better very impressive.

[Igor]

Man, it's quite amazing, to compare first and last drawing in this thread.. a visible leap in right direction! better poses, characterizations, "acting", lines.. everything actually

[Darth Mandarb]

I've stayed out of this thread until now (only 'cause you already know I think your style(s) rock hard anyway!)

But I just wanted to chime in and say that your latest is just BAD-ASS!

I thought the first few were good, but with excellent advice from all the talented artists on these boards you've taken a HUGE leap forward!

Keep it up man!

[Oneway]

Whoa! Impressive improvement Squinky! well done.

I am a bit reluctant to still critic your work now as i am a total comic nitwit. But still, maybe you will recognise something of what i'm saying here and use it in your future work.

Your last two pieces are great, but seeing as you just started working on the variable width inking, i think you went a bit overboard on the detail (thinner) lines. Example of this is the jackets in both pieces and the pants in the last one.

Without any particular skill in inking or comics i may be wrong, but common sense tells me that maybe you went something like this while trying out your new pen: "Alright, this new technique is friggin awesome. I can use this pen to draw everything!".

If you look back at Helms six-step inking instructions, you'll see that even the thinner lines are used sparingly. Instead he uses shading to increase detail and lighting. And it's the last 3 steps that i still miss from your fast becoming awesome work. I image these steps being the hardest aswell, unfortunately.

But please, keep trying to improve. You've shown to be a fast learner and i'm curious to see where it'll end up.

[Squinky]

Thanks guys! It took forever to do, so I'm glad it's appreciated...I got some more stuff brewing, but like I said, the inking takes hours...I am trying not to use the crosshatching stuff though, because I agree with oneway on that one...

Hopefully I'll post somethig soon...

Edit--
And yeah, the crits available here are the best. I feel bastard-like getting it for free.

I don't like the pose, it's wacky and wrong. Just showing a version without all those little cross hatch lines....I'm not sure my opinion on it, it seems lacking....


Edit....Again-----


My latest try. Experimenting a little....