ok. i posted a background on here a while ago but the perspective was wrong
apparently. i realised why and have redrawn it (i finally get what ppl mean about perspectives.) it obviously isn't finished but i want to know if im going in the right direction.
(http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/2453/docksthe9ct.jpg)
Right direction... NO
I love the backdrop, the foreground but the style of the house and cokemachine clash.
Depends on the style you want theres realism and then not so realism.. ;D my point being is
keep your lines tight if you want to go for the kill, and do kewl realistic looking things other
wise look at CMI style and see how the lines flow.
After you decide on the style tell us so we can judge.
It doesn't look completely right to me, mostly because it seems you used some sort of vanishing point for the house (and maybe the soda machine and the down-left box), but the rest is just sketched out.
Assuming you were going for basic shapes, they don't match perspective-wise (example: House & soda-machine).
http://www.khulsey.com/perspective_basics.html
My favourite perspective tutorial. Read the 2 point-thing too.
I practically never draw out a grid/VP's/helplines but that's cause I'm lazy.
My recommendation (if you strive for perspective perfection): Do it again with pure mathematics (don't guess things). Leave out all unneccessary details (smoke from chimney etc) and repost.
Or just render some boxes in a 3d app and paint over the shapes (easier).
(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8858/redrawace9ij.png)
The main point to focus on in KhrisMUC's diagram is that the vanishing point of horizontal lines has to be somewhere along the horizon.
I think this is the third time or something you create a thread to display more or less the same picture.
Please take into account the advice people give you, and read a few articles/tutorials on perspective. There's no point in starting new threads if you don't change anything.
i hope this is better. i think its ok
(http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/3937/thedocks21es.jpg)
im aware of the angle of the wooden deck- that is slightly off
I like its cartoon feel
Quote from: Afflict on Sun 26/03/2006 21:02:57
I like its cartoon feel
thanks. you know, i think thats the first good thing anyones sed about this BG. so thanks again ;D
The perspective is STILL wrong. But it doesn't matter any longer, cause now the BG is cartoony. Nice move.
The cage(?) should be seperated from the floor lines of the house and cola machine, and the boards on the boxes have no depth. The top one seems to float above the other one.
The tiles on the roof are overlapping in the front, but not on the back.
It's a good approach, but the house looks as if it's going to fall to one side. That's distracting and not very cartoony either.
cheers
nihilyst
Quote from: KhrisMUC on Mon 27/03/2006 10:54:20
The cage(?) should be seperated from the floor lines of the house and cola machine
The tiles on the roof are overlapping in the front, but not on the back.
ye i know, i realized that just after i posted my last message. i'll fix it.
Quote from: KhrisMUC on Mon 27/03/2006 10:54:20
and the boards on the boxes have no depth. The top one seems to float above the other one.
not sure what you mean ???
Quote from: nihilyst on Mon 27/03/2006 12:01:22
It's a good approach, but the house looks as if it's going to fall to one side. That's distracting and not very cartoony either.
cheers
nihilyst
this is my style. its supossed to look like that! everyone has a style - some people like it some don't (kinda like modern art ;) )
I meant the upper box looks like it is floating, not like sitting on the lower one.
On the edges, the boards look like painted on a cube.
Quote from: Ace_Gamer on Mon 27/03/2006 12:27:32
this is my style. its supossed to look like that! everyone has a style - some people like it some don't (kinda like modern artÃ, ;) )
I'm so sorry to have to say this BUT:
I'km sick tired to hearing that 'this is my style', or 'this is how I wanted' and stuff like that! Your BG is well done, but still the house looks like it's going to fall.
Give credit to people that know more than you, in the sense of, you cannot fool them. Anyone trying to claim that 'this is how I want it', is merely trying to defend himself on something that needs no defence!
I think that everybody (at least I) did the same errors sometimes in our lifes. I sure am guilty of claiming that this is the way I like it, for things I had created (mainly music), and after so many years all I can do is be embaressed from this works of crap! Surely they were usefull as progressing process, but heck it was not my choice really. It was my lack of knowledge and choise.
So: Try to fix the angle (don't be lazy, bored or something), show it to us, and I'll be the first to say, that 'go ahead, go with the cartoony style'. Currently this is not cartoony style, because of the angle. The rest are great!
Mainly, as I think everybody will back me up on this, having a style means having a choice, and I'm not sure that you do have a choice...
Sorry for that but I needed to get it out!
I didn't want to say it THAT directly, but Nikolas is right. When you put something in the C&C lounge, you should try to make things better. I must admit, that I sometimes don't make the things that are suggested, not because they were silly, but I didn't like them. That's okay. You've been showed some examples, how you could do the perspective better, you didn't even bother. And "some like it, some don't" is kind of a silly argument, since it isn't an argument at all.
Ok, I hope I didn't offend you, I justed wanted to share what I've learned regarding critics. I've also received critics (not on graphics, though), that I really ignored, since they weren't reasonable, some kind of stupid and rather subjective. But there are others, that I could accept and took to heart. In questions of writing, I've learned to differ reasonable from unreasonable critics, and unfortunately, the writers I met were rather selfish (myself included) and too self-confident, that they proclaimed their style to be the "good" and every style has to be like theirs to be also good, and if you would ask "What can I do to make the story better", you would get an answer like "You can't, since you're a bad writer. Stop writing and let DA PROS do it1!!1" That's annoying, but that's why I really like the AGS forums, because there are none of those "I am king" types of persons, and I learned, that you can really learn something in here. So, that was a short field trip in my life.
It's your choice, nevertheless, so if you decide to go this rather distracting style, I won't stop you.
BTW: Since the house have one side darker, the boxes should also have one.
cheers
nihilyst
here's an updated version. i fixed the hut so it doesn't look like its falling over. i also fixed other things mentioned including tiles at back of hut.
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3312/thedocks24yn.jpg)
i hope this is better and i'm not wasting your time.
i think this is finished- just needs touching up a bit.
You're not wasting our time at all. And you have made some really good improvements. The crates are very well done now, and the house is also better. Keep it up!
cheers
nihilyst
A few pointers:
* If you want to make edges and shapes slanted and skewed, at least make them so in different directions. If you make all the lines of a shape slanted in the same way, it will appear actually falling over.
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/houses.jpg)
* Thinner and less black outlines please. They are way too distinct right now.
* Make sure that objects in front of other objects either overlap them properly or leave a gap between them. Now the cages in the foreground sort of align with the house, and this is distracting and ugly.
* The ground is not good. It's smeared out and has some strange texture to it. The shadow is ugly and lowers the over-all impression of the impression. Consider ditching it alltogether, make it very vague, alternatively crisp clean and sharp. Experiment.
The overall lack of proper perspective isn't really a problem, if you take care of the major issues mentioned above. The colours work very well together.
I don't know what you posted, before you edited, but from Nihilists post I can also say that NO you're not wasting our time. If I felt that, I wouldn't have posted in the first place.
Now on your latest BG. I actually like everything, and particualry the shadows on the crates, which are done ver ycarefully and with care. But again the small angle presents some problems imo. What Andail said.
But apart from the small angle, everything else is just great and you've done very good work! Well done!
im quite happy with my background, but i've found someone who is a great artist - the style is completely different but i'll see what it looks like. i'll post his version when he does it. he is currently completeing work on a different game.
Even if you are making a cartoony style, use perspective mathematics. It saves you time. I think that good cartoony style bends the shapes in a manner that they are still in balance, maintain symmetry, enchance flow (draw your eyes to certain points) and are aesthetic, although not in perspective. You can do it easiest by having a good, relatively realistic frame that you work from, and start distorting it.
http://koti.mbnet.fi/el_tonic/new/two%20houses.jpg
Too wide, fucks up the page)
These both were done by guessing, so don't paint over them. The first one has just had photoshop's warp transformations applied to it, which I painted over in the second image to see if I had guessed the transformations somewhat correctly (the surface textures can confuse the actual structure and make it look good).
If you are doing a cartoony style, I would not recommend using straight lines at least in the final image. The more you draw by hand, the better.
i use straight lines coz:
a) its a unique style
B) [and mostly this reason] i can't draw free hand very well with my tablet. do u think i would be able to hand draw (and paint?) BG's and scan them onto my pc.? would that look good do you think
let's say, go ahead and use staight lines, but if all lines in the picture are straight, it will look stiff. Use curved/bezier's as well. Variable line thickness is also harder to accomplish with vectors.
Do them by hand if you like. Whatever looks better, unless it takes you double the time or you are prepared to spend more time by doing them by hand. Animated-hand-painted backgrounds will at least be a bitch.
http://koti.mbnet.fi/el_tonic/new/comoc%20house.jpg
I made you this to show one easy comic trick. The picture is based on the same frame as in the previous one, in a comic style, you can think of these things kind of like balloons. Some shapes have gotten extra air (coke machine) and some have had air sucked from them (house). By combining inward and outward curves, but starting from a solid foundation, you can establish a style and make objects draw attendion by using different shapes and outlines. When you rely on a realistic base, you'll get some freedom to do what you want with the shapes. As long as people understand it is a house it should look fine. I didn't think much of anything composition-wise when I made it so you should be able to make a more interesting picture by experimenting more with different lines and colors. As long as you have a realistic frame that uses perspecitve, and work from that, it will make enough sense for people to understand how it works depth-wise. It doesn't have to be exact, since it won't show in the final picture. Just more or less like the real thing.
a quick drawing in the style you mentioned
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7051/dockscartoonversion2os.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Quite nice. I like the idea for the clouds, as well as the combination of the straight buildings in the horizon with the rest of the style. Comic style is really hard. It is much more difficult than drawing realistic stuff, where you only have to forget everything you know and draw what you see. In comic style, your handstyle does a lot. The faster you can draw lines and without shaking, the better it will generally look since when people see it they will see the flow of your hand across the picture. If it is interrupted or drawn slowly, it will look more nervous (which can be used to good results as well). The basis of comic style is in understanding stuff in 3d and breaking everything down to primitives. Whatever you do artwise, will increase your skills, and even if you drew only realistic stuff, the next time you drew a picture like this it would look better. Comic style (like art) probably has a lot of mechanics and written rules that are taught in fancy art schools, and could help you (you might find some stuff on the internet).
About your picture:
I'd like the cola machine to relate differently to the house, not look like it's a part of it.
The general idea behind the clouds is nice, and they show that you have done the lines quite fast, flowing smoothly. The boxes in front have too erratic lines for a smooth surface like that (if you add holes and stuff later on, make them look broken it might work). The house seems a little out of perspective in the back (it's too wide) and the roof tiles shoud be redone with more flowing lines. The idea of a roof that is about to collapse like that looks good though. It looks partly bad because you used one line for the upper edge of the house and the shapes of the tiles are broken within the roof. Make the tiles follow more the inward bend. The window and the bottle-drop-down hole for the cola machine are too fat. When you add shapes on a distorted frame like either one, try to make them distorted in the same way as the surface where they touch (so it looks like they are a part of it). The outer part of the shapes (example: window) can be distorted in a way of it's own, just make the touching part follow the surface. I am not very fond of the bridge (although it adds to the composition).
Here is a edit regarding some of the mentioned things:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/el_tonic/new/comichouse2.jpg
Comic style is difficult. You have to know how much is too much, be able do do strange perspective and vision things in 3d in your mind. Graffiti and charicatures might be of help to you too.
i apreciate the feedback BUT....i did this in 5 mins (if that), i just wanted to know if i was going in the right direction with the non-straight lines. i'll take all your C&C into account when i make the final version in this style.
I didn't assume you worked long into the night with it, and I am doing this for myself as well. I believe I can learn from trying to paint it over and writing down my thoughts to clear them.
That said, I liked the more realistic style better, but you made more of an effort with it.
i think the more realistic style is better too. i'll try to do a version without so many straight lines
for those of you that haven't seen my new thread, here's the latest version:
(http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/8564/dockscmitypestyle0zo.png)
I like it, the way it is! It's not really comic style, but it has some tricky equalities with it. I don't understand a lot, when it's about bg's and stuff, so it's easyier for me to see the artistic side of it.
greetz
loki