Well here it is:
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/wtcq/apic.png)
It's a bit empty and have some errors but overall it's not bad(isn't it?).
You should tone the red down. Such a strong color is not very pleasant to look at.
Don't use the spray tool on the lines in the corners. The missing pixels look weird.
Correct the spots where the lines are supposed to meet(bottom right of door, top left of window etc.).
Don't make the colors cross the lines and mix with each other.
I'd say if you plan to use the weird angled windows and doors like that, don't be afraid to skew the room itself too.
Well minor update:(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/wtcq/Room7.jpg)
Sorry for the crappy quality but I had to upload it in jpg because of some problem
I will upload it in png soon
Anyway I deleted the points from the lines.
Sorry, no. It's not good at all...
First, colors bleed too much... It's especially ugly on black outlines
Second, skewed style has to be done carefully, and should have some point in it.
Yours doesn't have any.
You can make cartoony style, but make difference between "cartoony" and "half-assed".
Add alot more things into this room before going on, and change the red color. Also, the door is way overdone.
You should probably make the walls a different color than the floor. I would also like it if you put in some furniture like a lamp or a couch. It would probably look better to be able to see the ground outside the window. also some walls should be darker than others depending on the light source.
(http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2307/roomvb5.png)
Here's my quick, yet so awsome edit. And it only took several minutes :D
Mr. Buckéthead thats ... beautiful, nice edit.
Wtcq, I think you should add a bit of moonlight shinning in the room. And also, make the lines on the box consistent with the lines on the door.
That is, assuming the objects are a box and the moon.
I think don't save to jpg. I think further more, you should look into reference material like Day of the tentacle and sam and max. I think you might want to try a normal style before stretching the limits of reality too much since, the guys that do do that understand the fundamentals of real world perspective etc.
Also if your gona go with the skewed style I would recommend trying to keep some symmetry to it, like the top thick the bottom thin or visa versa reference Mr Bucketheads pic for visual explanation. (the door in this case)
Also maybe google for some nice tuts, on drawing perspective or DOTT style (Maybe try using Bill Tiller as a keyword in the searches too)
Good Luck.
Afflict.
Thx Afflict for the tip maybe I'll try Something like dott since I've played the game 12 twelve and I like the style of so I'll psot some Dott style pic soon ok?(if you say yes I will make one if you say no I will make one anyway)
Wtcq, reading some of your posts really annoys me. It's strange that you don't even try to appear old enough for this forum, when you're clearly underaged.
Quote from: Andail on Sun 24/06/2007 11:51:45
Wtcq, reading some of your posts really annoys me. It's strange that you don't even try to appear old enough for this forum, when you're clearly underaged.
Sorry but what is your problem now ??? ???
His problem is that he is a moderator... and you need to be moderated.
A few of your posts are badly spelled, incoherent, lack punctuation, and are generally pointless. If you don't make a minimal effort when you write, why should we have to read it?
Quote from: Snarky on Sun 24/06/2007 17:18:42
, incoherent,
1.You don't have to read just you can read it
2."incoherent," well this is a typo but i don't mind it just it's a bit ironic that you talk bout spelling errors and then you make one
Don't wanna start a fight here, but:
Quote from: Wtcq on Sun 24/06/2007 17:44:51
Quote from: Snarky on Sun 24/06/2007 17:18:42
, incoherent,
2."incoherent," well this is a typo but i don't mind it just it's a bit ironic that you talk bout spelling errors and then you make one
"incoherent" is correct (at least that's what Firefox spell-check says).
Quote from: Wtcq on Sun 24/06/2007 17:44:51
Quote from: Snarky on Sun 24/06/2007 17:18:42
, incoherent,
1.You don't have to read just you can read it
This is in fact ironic, because that's yet another sentence coming from you that doesn't seem to make sense in the slightest.
Sorry, nobody cares about a few typos around here, it's just, sometimes we have to guess what you're trying to say and that is annoying, time-intensive and unnecessary. Either try to take a few seconds more after writing a post, re-read it, check whether the words make sense to other people than you, then post or reconsider spending time on an English-speaking community.
This is all off-topic though, badly, so I say we stop this discussion now or take it to another, more appropriate thread.
The DOTT style "crooked" architecture is actually more difficult to accomplish than correct perspective. It doesn't seem like it would be, but it is. The problem that I, personally, have with your background is that it appears that you just threw some lines up there in 5 minutes and then rushed to post.
I'll offer the advice I've given before. TAKE YOUR TIME!!
Here is something I threw together in ten minutes:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ags/help/wtc_help01.gif)
Followed a simple perspective. Easy. A lot of the artists in here (myself included) spend hours upon hours crafting our backgrounds. We devote time and energy to them. Take your time. Check all lines, double pixels, follow perspective, etc. Think of the details; furniture, trim, doorknobs, etc. Don't be so eager to post and get people's opinions. We don't know when you're working on something and we aren't waiting for it ... so if you wait a bit longer and spend some more time on it we'll never know the difference.
Seriously ... just take your time.
QuoteSorry but what is your problem now ??? ???
I don't really mind the grammar or spelling mistakes. Nobody is perfect. It is just that it sometimes feels as if you were talking to yourself.
I don't know how will you like this but heres a new one: (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/wtcq/Apic3.png)
theres no furniture yet scince I don't really know what to place here.
Any suggestions??
Oh plz need crit
Darth Mandarb:
i know that actually the goofy style is more work but it also looks better so I stick with it. Oh and thx for the tip I'll cut back and take me time. ;D
Wtcq, why are you posting here if you are not really following advice? Lots of people suggested things and you don't seem to have used any of it ???
Quote from: Mr. Buckéthead on Sun 24/06/2007 19:34:49
Wtcq, why are you posting here if you are not really following advice? Lots of people suggested things and you don't seem to have used any of it ???
Well actually I'm right now working on updates. And I'm following advice
for example I think you wanted to encourage me to put stuff in the room(aren't you??)
and I'm right now putting furniture into this room afflict said I shoulda use reference material well the last picture is halfly dott style( just take a look at the door).
Well it true that I'm still using goofy style but no one sad not to jsut darth told me that
not goofy is easier and I was working on that pic since my last post, and in my opinin it's
pretty cool (not complete tho) so you can't say I'm just whip up some crap and post it.
So after all I followed your advices. Thats all Buckéthead
-Wtcq
Here are some general advice:
* Ditch the whole DOTT concept, or the "goofy" style altogether. The people behind the DOTT backgrounds didn't just throw together a few crocked lines and hope for the best; they are in fact skilled graphic artists, and I'd wager 100 bucks they all started their careers drawing traditional scenes, perfectly correct perspective-wise.
As people have been trying to tell you, whacky/goofy/DOTT style is not just random, it's not lack of perspective, it's another perspective, but it takes practice, and it requires you to spend more than 2 1/2 minutes per room.
* Use references, and start out simple, with basic stuff. Draw your own room. Try to understand what constitutes a room, in its physical sense.
* Draw the backgrounds as good as you freaking can before you show them here. Only when you can't possibly improve the backgrounds on your own anymore should you seek for other people's feedback. Otherwise you're just being lazy or wanting attention.
* Never call your background DOTT again, please.
* Spend some time on your posts as well as the pictures. Read through your posts, and ask yourself "Would this post be better if I used any sort of punctuation?" "I wonder if this post would be more legible if I exchanged some of the ??? smileys to comprehensible words?" "Darnit, but how about I checked this post to see if I unintentionally used completely different words than the ones I had in mind when the urge to post something first kicked in?"
Just like most kids, you seem completely oblivious to what people tell you or what you talk about yourself. I sincerely wish you could just grow a few years older before actually posting here, at least until you reached the minimum age of this forum. Or, you could do your bloody best to act mature and stop dishing out crap as soon as somebody tells you off.
Let's stay on topic, please. If you want to discuss grammar and punctuation with someone (and I mean this generally) then I recommend a private message rather than cluttering up what is meant to be an art and art criticism thread. That said, I really think you should listen to the advice offered here, Wtcq; most of the people advising you have years of art experience and you can't go wrong listening to the wisdom of people who have been where you are now. I'm not sure why so many people are hung up on DoTT style, anyway; it seems like an excuse to draw jagged, poor lines rather than make straight lines and use a proper vanishing point. I think you would do well to draw backgrounds like the one Darth Mandarb made for awhile, because using proper vanishing points will train you in the art of perspective so that you can eventually do wonky styles like DoTT without a lot of effort.
Please post an edit of your work when you think you can't do any more to improve it. That's when advice can really help.
Quote from: Andail on Sun 24/06/2007 22:24:11
Just like most kids, you seem completely oblivious to what people tell you or what you talk about yourself. I sincerely wish you could just grow a few years older before actually posting here, at least until you reached the minimum age of this forum. Or, you could do your bloody best to act mature and stop dishing out crap as soon as somebody tells you off.
Plz plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz I know what you think about me so you don't have to post the "you are an unmature lil kid" crap again.What the heck do you need?? I drew a Bg
that I thouth looks cool but it turned out it's not so cool so I'll improove it. Yeah you tell me that I haven't done anything but for god sake I'm 13(in two week 14) other 13ers are sitting in classrooms, playing ballgames or PLAYING(not working) on computer and I posted a BG what looks good for a guy like me. And finally thx ProgZmax you're totally right but I had to answer. Anyway I'll ost improovement and then you crit it ok??
And plz no unmature kid/kid with grammer problems crap ok Andail??(If you feel you must be my goddamn mentor and you have to make me mature send me a PM)
QuoteAnd please no unmature kid/kid with grammer problems crap ok Andail??(If you feel you must be my goddamn mentor and you have to make me mature send me a PM)
No point using a "matureness" argument, as it's clear you've not showed any maturity in your original post. Honestly, I'm happy to try and help people, but when I see pictures drawn in paint with almost zero effort, it makes me wonder if there's a point at all.
Saying it's DOTT style? Have you even played DOTT? Your BGs wouldn't even class as first sketches for proper BGs, yet you've bothered to color them. Please explain why? Can you name any other semi-serious game that has put this little effort into the basic design of a BG, let alone bothered to waste time coloring it? What kind of f*cked up characters to you plan on using? Mr. Bendy and Captain Slant-o?
Seriously, just use a line tool/curve tool first, to get a basic shape. Would that be so hard? Take a moment to step back and look at it. Is it vaguely sensible? If YES, then continue. If NO, then start again, and don't try polishing a turd with colors and other fancy tools. Threads like this are just a waste of eveyone's time, please don't post unless you're going to try and put some effort in. Think about the background first. Have a basic idea to begin with. Maybe even do a rough sketch on paper. Don't do it because you're bored in class.
As for DOTT style, they bent the rules with perpective. Please bother to learn the rules before trying to bend them.
This is also not an age thing, before you say it. Some 13 year olds put effort in, some 30 year olds don't. Effort/practice/time/whatnot.. It all adds up and makes you better in the long run.
Also back off topic, but wtf? There's no need. You have a keyboard. F*cking use it properly for a change..
QuotePlz plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Renal, you don't need to be condescending or insulting in your posts; the same goes for you, Wtcq, and the public at large; whatever aggression you have pent up just save it for somewhere else because this isn't the place for it. Now I don't want any more insults or attitude in this thread, please.
You're right ProgZ, my condescending tone was a little over the top, but I'm sure I'm not alone when I see posts/threads like this and feel disheartened at the lack of effort some of the newer folk are putting in. It sometimes feels like it's changed from a "C&C Lounge" to a "I had half a minute spare whilst surfing for pr0n and I'm not good with lefthand-mousing but here's what I came up with before I came up with.. Lounge".
I'd just like to see people put in serious examples for us to criticise and hopefully help to improve, instead of just a reason to vent.
As for criticisms, I'd still suggest doing line art that looks good on a later viewing before taking it any further.
You're right guys but there is one: thing why do you find my last pic so utterly shit
it's not a very professional but it's not soo crap it has a few (tho crap) shadows
and anyway this isn't an MsPaint pic e.g You can't darken/brighten in Paint and You can't blur in MsPaint and you can't use other pictures as brushes.
So i know what you say guys and I'll try to make pic you like but you guys crit this pic
this rude like: "This is shit and chage anything"when I made a new pic you guys:
This is UTTERLY SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT and even how dare you come here and post your pic and anyway your a goddamn underaged dickhead.
(Ok the steam is finally out well I had to write this down coz otherway I would
destroy my bed during the night)
I hope this thread gonna turn into a normal CL thread where people help each other
-Wtcq
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa25/wtcq/Apic3.png)
QuoteSo i know what you say guys and I'll try to make pic you like but you guys crit this pic
this rude like: "This is shit and chage anything"when I made a new pic you guys:
This is UTTERLY SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT and even how dare you come here and post your pic and anyway your a goddamn underaged dickhead.
Where's the improvement? Have you thought about how the character will fit in the background? Have you thought that using a tool to paste the same effortless X motif across the walls will in anyway make us think "wow, this is well made.."?
Before we go any further, could you draw a rouch sketch of a sprite and place him or her at a couple of random places on that background, so we can get a rough idea of what you're aiming for please.
I think you'll find that in one placement it may look vaguely sensible, but if you have the character move on screen, then rest of the time it'll look out of place.
But please, prove me wrong.
EDIT:
Quoteit's not a very professional but it's not soo crap it has a few (tho crap) shadows
Shadows come AFTER the basic structure is in place. My whole point to begin with.
WTCQ:
If you're bound to use a whacky style for your backgrounds, here are a couple of tips and tricks I like to use. They are time-consuming, but as the rest of the people here I agree that you really cannot spend enough time on a background.
- Start with a sketch, and before you sketch, have an idea. Adventure game locations are "bastard architecture" because they have to look like "natural" locations but also have to provide the space and positions for objects you may need for puzzles, plus walkable areas and overlays. So a good idea and a sketch are important. Don't ever think "I can put some stuff in there later" because most of the time, it won't work or look wrong.
- I don't know what program you're using, but I damn well hope it has layer support, because layers are your best buddies. Start your room as a simple construction of lines. This will give you sharp and clean angles and a good template to work with. Start with the overall shape of the location, and add "placeholders" for stuff like trees, cars, shelves, whatever.
- Once your room has taken shape, put your character in it. Put it on a layer and see if you can move it around the room with good results. If objects are too large, if there's hardly any room for walkable areas, redesign.
- Repeat until your location is both PLAYABLE and GOOD-LOOKING.
- Now you can draw the location. I usually start by creating shapes of one colour. Once again, work from big to small. Start with walls and ceiling, then add your objects. It helps if you stick to a clean pixel style because you might want to turn part of the picture into walk-behinds later.
NOTE: You can actually warp your perspective now after constructing it "the natural way". Effects like a fish eye lense or a sharp skew are good ways to make your image look "wacky" while retaining enough of the natural perspective.
- Add some detail to your room and objects. Shadows on the walls. Texture on crates. Pictures. And so on. If you keep the different parts of your image on seperate layers, you'll be able to change and test without ever losing progress. This is a progress that takes lots of time, and it helps to check the works of other people. I for myself learned a lot from grames like Apprentice, Crique de Zale and Nelly Cotaloot.
- Once you're happy with the image, save it. Then let it rest for a few days. Don't even look at it. Return to it later, and check for things that look wrong. There's a good chance you'll spot stuff like stray pixels, double pixels, wrong shading. Correct this. Let it rest again. If you're sure you can by no means improve it, post it.
- Always keep a copy with layers!
All this may sound a bit patronizing, but isn't meant to be. It's free and gratis advice, and I hope it'll help you to improve your work. Hope you can make something of it.
The single most important thing in my opinion is practice. You just can not expect to become a good artist overnight. Start with pencil and paper and make your sketches really tiny. Fold the paper 2 or even 3 times because the small areas are not as overwhelming as the complete sheet. Additionally the small areas force you to concentrate on the composition and you won't get lost in details.
Also be sure to have at least an idea of what you want to sketch. A bedroom for example needs at least a door, a bed, a window, and a wardrobe.
You will see improvements really fast!
Also I have read somewhere, that everybody who can read/write can also paint, because reading and writing is the higher cognitive skill. I don't know if it is true but I find it encouraging.
QuoteOnce you're happy with the image, save it. Then let it rest for a few days. Don't even look at it. Return to it later, and check for things that look wrong.
Letting it rest is the best way, but mirroring your saved image horizontally also works. It is a fast and easy way to get a new perspective on what you have done so far.
Quote from: cobra79 on Tue 26/06/2007 06:35:30
Letting it rest is the best way, but mirroring your saved image horizontally also works. It is a fast and easy way to get a new perspective on what you have done so far.
Ah, yes, I forgot about that one. A great tip indeed- little effort, and great results!
Quote from: Ghost on Tue 26/06/2007 10:18:02
Quote from: cobra79 on Tue 26/06/2007 06:35:30
Letting it rest is the best way, but mirroring your saved image horizontally also works. It is a fast and easy way to get a new perspective on what you have done so far.
Ah, yes, I forgot about that one. A great tip indeed- little effort, and great results!
I've never used this as checking before. Problem is you can change stuff, then in switching it back it can look wrong again. It is all about checks and balances, and compromise. After all, the are creating a representation of something, but it is essentially like all art - a manipulation of real ideas to suit your needs and aim.
Also, I have a tip on drawing objects you are not familiar with (although, be careful how literally you use it): If say, you want to draw a small pot plant... Look up "pot plant" on an image search and pick one that best matches what you want. You can then use the scaling tool to resize the pic to the size you want. Keep this picture next to the one you are drawing. It may look pixely and indistinct, but you will be able to copy the shape and arrangement of important pixels for your own little pot plant.
Works for me anyway. Not a tip on perspective, but on objects and props, which are very important for conveying size, etc.
Hope all this is useful. Sorry I didn't have time to do an example.
As far as I've read, the main idea behind flipping is that people tend to "bend" their lines depending on their handedness, and that it's easier to spot these bend lines after mirroring the image. I surely do "bend", each time I have to concentrate, otherwise everything leans towards the right a bit. It's something that happens to even the most professional artists, though, and I agree that no-one should try to make everything rocksteady. Little flaws can be part of a style.
This is slowly compiling into a very nice collection of practical tips!
* Don't swear so much. It doesn't make you older.
* Make something to criticize, then ask for it.
Your 2nd image has two walls, door, window and a floor. What to crit here?
Oh, a nice curved wall?
Awesome goofy door?
They're not much and even at that, they're wrong.
And... Well, they're not good. Even if you actually listened to anyone and used correct perspective, I wouldn't it call it still background yet. You know very well what to do - why are you waiting for someone to say this?
Add more stuff!
* When you actually decide to add more stuff, start from a clean sheet. First, draw ALL outlines, of everything. If you have absolutely everything drawn that you need, then and only then start coloring the background. Not before. *Especially* when you're going for your very own crippled_goofyâ,,¢ style.
* I like the colors of window, and how they turned out. Floor is a bit too bright but still acceptable.
Everything else is bullshit. And when I'm using strong words on someone's art, I seriously mean it.
* Nobody's hating you because you're younger. But nobody likes how you format your posts and responses to advice.
And this is a quick way to isolation.
13? Start acting like ONE, I don't believe there's 13-years olds who are unable to write short text at acceptable grammar/punctuation level! Artists are cultural people, mostly. See your goal?
The next backround you post should include a FULL room, taking into account other objects that the player might walk behind, etc. Although your current drawings aren't overly amazing, small things like the door & window show you still have an attention to detail. So for now I would stop worrying about basic room layouts and just go ahead and make one, fully fleshed out room, with cabinets, drawers, beds, whatever. Just to give you some practice.
You should realise people don't want to spend time on this board reviewing & writing about empty rooms consisting of one wall & a doorway. I think you'll show people a vast improvement if you really build the contents of your background up. Doing that will then help you when you revisit the basics in the next background.
but you do have to agree that his door is awesome! It looks like the whole wall makes a twist and the door is going straight downstairs. :p
It's such a bad perspective that's it's almost beautiful. I mean I'm to precise to make it like this....
my advice is to have fun in creating backgrounds... if you like to make em like this, do that... but when you post in C&C you should be willing to do something about so called errors. If you dont like that, just make your game, post it, and let people play your game :)
Why are people so obsessed with gradient?
And 2 pages of thread and no progress, OMG.
Buy a drawing book for beginners if this thread is no help, maybe you will discover an artist in you some day because of that!
Less talkie talkie more acting!