cave / castle background

[Honza]

I've been slowly working on this background for almost three weeks now. It's still not finished, but I'm getting impatient and hungry for some sort of feedback to stay motivated. So I thought I'd just post it here to get some thoughts on it. I know it's hard to criticize when it's still work in progress, so some parts are obviously sloppy because they're not finished... just give me your general impression if possible. Thank you!

[Anian]

3 weeks?! Wow, that's commitment to a background. Though you probably should've done it earlier I think.

The perspective is all over the place, did you try this background with a character? You can draw this, but if you try to put a character with proper scaling, I think it'd be impossible.
For example the gate on the left and the corner with column certainly give the impression of 2 vanishing points on the same horizon, BUT stairs make it seem like the horizon is much higher (where the top side of a stair turns into a line). The door in the back is maybe scaled with the other door, but again the stairs indicate it should be much farther to the back and thus smaller. The table is overall a very strong indicator of perspective (because it has very clear straight lines, but again it seems like it has a separate vanishing point.

I really like the style, the rendering and the details. I think lighting is rather good (I suck at it, but not sticks out for me so far). One thing, maybe that table has a texture that seems very repetitive.

You really got some skill, but you need to sketch out and properly set up the perspective and then paint and texture.

[Honza]

Well, it's been small steps every day, I'm not talking about three weeks of full-time work. Plus I draw everything with my mouse, which isn't the fastest technique .

Anyway, thanks for the input! I've only recently gotten into the whole setting up a perspective thing, been reading some tutorials on vanishing points, but only after I've already gotten most of the objects placed. Apparently I don't have much of a spatial imagination, but I think I have a rough idea what you're talking about - I'll see what can be done with the stairs for example. As I imagine it when I look at the picture, the stairs getting smaller is not only indication of perspective, the top ones are actually smaller than the bottom ones... but I realize now that doesn't make much sense .

I'm not sure what's wrong with the table though. If somebody placed it on the floor like this, the perspective would be more or less similar, wouldn't it? Or is this just an aesthetical thing - that it should be facing another direction so that the lines are in tune with the rest of the objects? The texture on the table is hand-painted by the way, no copy & paste... but I agree it does have that flat, tiled look, I should work on that.

I guess next time I'll sketch the basics in google sketchup first to get the 3D elements right. Thanks again!

[Honza]

Oh and I actually have tried it with a character and it seems to work. Only I can't let him go all the way up the stairs or too far into the foreground

[Crimson Wizard]

Being rather not an artist but a beholder, I give my opinion as the latter.
Honestly, I do not like lightning very much. It's a bit annoying being like that (drawn in stripes), though that may be personal feelings. What's more important, it looks irrealistic when being drawn all over the background. We cannot not see the light in the air, we see objects lit by the light. Dust, for example.
Also, judging from geometry, the foreground would be well lit, but the background around the corner should be much darker, in my opinion.
Shadow from the table is wrong, unless you assume there another light source, above it. With the light coming only from the portal, table's shadow should be on the opposite wall (the one we don't see).

[Andail]

Hm, it seems you have spent an unfortunate amount of time on details, while neglecting perspective and light/colour scheme. My advice is to paint the whole scene again, with hardly any colours or lighting. Then you decide on the light source, and start painting surfaces hit by that light. Remember that the light source must be the brightest part of the image - the light emitting from it can't be brighter!

[Honza]

Crimson Wizard: Thanks for the feedback, I'm planning to work on the light beams, make them more irregular and maybe lower their opacity. I'll think about the shadow of the table.

Andail: Well, I'm definitely not going to start completely over . Could you please be more specific about what you think is wrong? What you say about lighting is correct, but I don't see how I neglected it. If you're talking about the blue color behind the door, that's not finished of course, there will be something painted inside it. Colors and lighting can be corrected quite easily without repainting the image, it's all separate layers.

I understand that the perspective is off at some places (mainly the staircase), but I don't think it's so botched up as to redo the whole image. Or is it? Again, specific tips would be more helpful. But thanks anyway .

[Tabata]

I am not the one to give a helpful critics, but nonetheless I like the background and the somewhat strange perspective.
The stairs are the only thing that don't work for me, but that has been told already.
For me the colors and patterns look good and if there will be a reason for the light to come through the left door in separated beams (like a grid) it looks fine to me, too.

But it's always facinating to see the tips and explanations of our specialists about perspective and such things in this thread. So I hope someone will find the time to come up with such a helpful example/explanation-image here, too.

[dactylopus]

It looks fantastic, and definitely has a certain style to it.  It reminds me a little of Disney movies.

I'd follow the above advice to get a more realistic looking image.  If, however, the perspective is a style choice, then I would focus more on the lighting issues (rays, shadows).

A few additional things:  You may want to darken the foreground rocks a bit more to add contrast.  Also, the wall to the right of the stairs seems to lack detail in comparison to the rest of the image.

Good work!

[pharlap]

I am very impressed with that background! That is seriously awesome!

[Lewis]

Well, I'm definitely not going to start completely over . Could you please be more specific about what you think is wrong? What you say about lighting is correct, but I don't see how I neglected it. If you're talking about the blue color behind the door, that's not finished of course, there will be something painted inside it. Colors and lighting can be corrected quite easily without repainting the image, it's all separate layers.

I understand that the perspective is off at some places (mainly the staircase), but I don't think it's so botched up as to redo the whole image. Or is it? Again, specific tips would be more helpful. But thanks anyway .

The problem is that perspective is fundamental to the whole image. You can't tweak perspective after you start. You either set it up correctly before you do anything else, or it'll be wrong, and there'll never be any way of correcting that. Think of perspective as like building the foundations for a house. If you get it wrong, the house will fall down. And you can't just change it a bit, because by that stage you've already started building a house on top of it.

The problem with your image is that you seem to be working to three separate vanishing points, which is too many for this type of image to begin with (you use three vanishing points for aerial views, usually). For this image you should be using two vanishing points, and they should be aligned on a horizontal plane (the 'horizon line'), which yours aren't. This means we end up in a situation where different objects in the world appear to be obeying separate laws of perspective, which is why - for example - the table looks weird even though it's positioned at an angle.

Here's a good tutorial on two-point perspective: http://www.technologystudent.com/designpro/twopers1.htm

As you can see, your horizon line always remains flat, but you move the scene 'up' or 'down' depending on your viewing angle. And the best way to draw items accurately is by always first drawing lines from your vanishing points that join up with the objects. You delete these afterwards, of course, but it's near-impossible to get the perspective bang-on without following this process, like so:



Does that help at all?

[Honza]

Lewis: Yes, it helps, thanks for taking the time to explain thoroughly. As I said, it seems I don't have much of a spatial imagination, so while I understand the theory, I don't notice mistakes others see right away. The table actually looked ok to me until I compared the texture of the table to the texture of the floor. Now I recognize it's slightly off, but it still doesn't bother me as much as it probably should. If you could point out where and why exactly is the perspective wrong in my picture, I would appreciate it a lot, but of course I don't expect you to... your feedback is helpful as it is.

In keeping with my tendency to do things in the most complicated way possible, I've decided to first make a rough sketch of my background in Google Sketchup, then choose a camera angle, redraw it by hand, scan it and color it in Photoshop. Here's the first draft that came out of this process:




I was rushing to try it out, so I didn't model everything in 3D, and now the parts I've added by hand are still off. But I'm making progress

[Honza]

dactylopus, pharlap: Wow, thanks for the compliments! As much as I value the honest and constructive critique others are submitting, my ego is most grateful for those two short posts

[dactylopus]

The new background looks great!  I think SketchUp will be a very good tool for you.  I'd love to see this when it's gotten the same level of detail as the first.

Your early art already has me interested in the final product.

[tamatic]

It almost seems to suggest the end/begin of a bridge-like structure this way. I think it would do wonders making it steeper:

Btw: even steeper than in this outline thingie. But you get the point.

I like what you are doing/showing here. And I also agree with Crimson about the "light" effect from that first post. It is so distracting and detached it almost seems like a cheap watermark on top of some real nice artwork.

Thanks for sharing.

[Honza]

Good call with the steps, I imagine it really would look better - will give it a try. I completely agree with you and Crimson about the sunbeams, they're more or less a placeholder and I'm about to work on them.

It's really good to have feedback, makes me want to continue working on this .

[pharlap]

There are some great tips on perspective here that I may well take on myself. My backgrounds are pretty terrible.





My main problem is a total lack of artistic ability. The above represents a great de3al of work.... I just cant draw worth a damn. Its proving to be my main obstacle. Ive produced many games but havent put any up yet as the graphics just spoil the product

[Hernald]

pharlap - maybe this thread will encourage you to get something out there: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=47133.msg633382#msg633382

[Honza]

pharlap: A lot can be improved by hard work. Just look at art you like and try to break it down into small tasks - rough sketch, outlines, colors, shading, etc. Then take a pencil and an eraser and redo your image ad nausea until it comes close to what you like in other artists. If you really have no talent at all, it probably still won't be breathtaking, but you could get well above average.

Alternatively, make a deal with an artist. If your games are short, I, for example, would probably like to help you out in the art department

[tamatic]

pharlap: A lot can be improved by hard work. Just look at art you like and try to break it down into small tasks - rough sketch, outlines, colors, shading, etc. Then take a pencil and an eraser and redo your image ad nausea until it comes close to what you like in other artists. If you really have no talent at all, it probably still won't be breathtaking, but you could get well above average.

I agree. They say practice makes perfect. I think that includes working with your own limitations, at any given point, and that can yield very interesting results too.  Communication is more important than making things look all fancy. At least that way you will be sure you are not just getting lost in just pleasing the eye. And in the end you will get better at what you do anyway. Have a deeper understanding of where it came from.  It's nearly imposible not to pick up on widely used tricks in the long run.

Also: pharlap, your screenshot doesn't hint of any artistic lack and communicates a great deal imo. But yes, if thats not the aesthetics you are looking for, either get some help or keep at it. There is always the eraser.
One thing you might wanna try is working backwards. Rather then draw a tree take away the things that are not a tree. That might work if you have more of a sculptors temperament.

Keep at it.