(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/812/saladeestar.png)
Is the living room of the player character's house. It took me a few hours to put it together. Hope you like it. :)
I don't have much time right now, I'll respond later today if no one else does.
The two biggest issues are color, and perspective.
Colors. Unless you're making Mickey Mouse's house, those colors are very MSPaint standard pallet colors. How often do you see a bright pink carpet, and bright red couches, chairs, and bookshelves?
Lots of issues with perspective. The left side of that dinner table has more of an angle than the right side, which is clearly backwards. If I were you, I'd Google up: One point perspective.
The shelves on the bookshelf are angled downward because the sides aren't parallel with the ground.
The tv and bookshelf have no depth, neither do the windows. I'm really not sure what those black lines in the windows are. Are they supposed to be bars?
The height of the railing (not to mention the bright orange color and solid panel) is very high. It's almost the same height as the door.
One thing I've always disliked in this style of background, is when someone grabs a jpg image from google and slaps it in for a painting/picture on a wall. It clearly isn't drawn in the same style as the rest of the background, therefor it's the first thing I look at and it stands out like big red target on a white house.
Out of all the AGS games I've played, the one who's graphics I remember and liked the most were actually the simple ones. This one (http://crabshackgallery.com/game/CCscreenshot.gif) is definitely one of my favorites. It's from the game A Cure for the Common Cold (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/games.php?action=detail&id=839).
Now just take a look at the coloring in that background. Everything has a realistic, cartoony tone. Simple textures on the walls, simple creases in the fabric. It's so simple to do, yet it looks great.
Anyway, I'm not trying to sound like I'm being rude or anything, but you did ask for my criticism. :P
Looks very symmetrical and a bit empty except for the umbrella holder. Maybe add some character here and there, like some objects lying on the table, a few books in the bookcase, a tree in the distance outside the window...etc. I like the basic layout though.
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/812/saladeestar.png)
There you go :)
Now, if you don't like it, go to hell! >:(
Just kidding. ;D I really aprecciate you took the time to do such a review. I hope it's good now, or at least better. What do you recommend to improve the colors? I just don't know how. :(
EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot. I'm not gonna remove that picture. It's a picture from the character (because my character is based on a real life friend). So if I erase it, I'm gonna lose a lot of laugh from my friends, because he actually has that picture in a frame in his house (this is a recreation of his house, too). Well, I know it doesn't fit very good, but I don't think it ruins the room.
Your friend has a photo of himself playing harmonica on a toilet? :)
Anyway, you really haven't addressed the perspective problems Ryan pointed out. The couch, the tv, the right door in particular are wrong. Erasing items from your room isn't a solution, it's dodging the solution. There's also a weird M.C. Escher effect going on with the stairs. If the stairwell starts up along the wall, all you're going to see is a small doorway at the top left at best where it cuts into the wall and continues.
Read up on perspective and horizon lines and you'll produce a much more satisfying background I assure you.
Ahoy there,
I've taken a look at the room, and I don't really think the color scheme is nearly as hard to deal with as others have said. The problems I've noticed with the room, primarily, are some perspective issues here and there, that if fixed, would make the room feel a lot easier on the brain.
Your table shows some perspective, but generally speaking most of the items in the room are a bit out of whack and could use a little tweaking. The biggest issue I see is in the staircase - it looks as though the bottom flight is nestled right up against the wall, but then it inexplicably turns left to create an almost escherian 'impossible' extra flight of stairs. Unless your wall is curved or very oddly cut, you wouldn't likely be able to see the stairs beyond the turn.
Aside from that, a lot of your objects have parallel lines when they should be all going towards a consistent vanishing point (If you're not familiar with this term, let me know and I'll elaborate).
Sometime back in the first quarter of '09 I drew up a pair of animated tutorials about linear perspective, that might help you see where the problems are:
(http://i558.photobucket.com/albums/ss21/SpacePirateCaine/Simple1pointperspective.gif263203618)
Simple One-point Perspective
(http://i558.photobucket.com/albums/ss21/SpacePirateCaine/Bookshelf.gif263203620)
Bookshelves in one-point linear perspective
The image seems to be coming from a pretty high angle, so it's not a problem that you can see the tops of most items, but some things - like the top of the couch, for example - you should be able to see the top of but can't. If you get stuck with any of those points, let me know and I'll see if I can whip up a paintover sometime soon.
Final point of critique, which has been mentioned also by Kconan, the room looks very empty - I think you went in the wrong direction taking the umbrella holder out - what the room could really benefit from is more clutter and items sitting about - books on the bookshelf, maybe a magazine or two on the table, potted plant - bring back your drapes over the windows, just play with them a bit until they seem more drapey, and so on and so forth. At the moment it doesn't really come across as lived-in.
Something like this instead of the colors you have. It's a little washed out cause I did it quickly by mostly just desaturating the image, but you get the idea I hope. I didn't touch the perspective issues whatsoever, so I hope you don't think that is correct still.
(http://www.bryvis.com/entertainment/other/agsf/aventurero_color.png)
And I quickly painted a dude in that painting because I refuse to upload an image with a resized jpeg in an MS-Paint style background.
This is my last edit. If something else is wrong, well... I guess no one is gonna judge my game for its graphics.
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2286/saladeestaru.png)
Quote from: aventurero on Mon 11/01/2010 23:27:38
This is my last edit. If something else is wrong, well... I guess no one is gonna judge my game for its graphics.
Well taken that you've completely disregarded what we've, and especially SpacePirateCaine, have mentioned and pointed out on perspective issues.. I can't see you improving
any background if you're going disregard those suggestions because perspective is a very important part of an adventure background.
Your color choices are much better and I like the little objects laying around. Makes the background much more entertaining.
Here are a few corrections, based on a horizon at approximately eye height, assuming the table is drawn correctly.
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/369/expladv.png)
It's really very easy once you get the hang of it, and it'll prevent people from having epileptic seizures just from looking at your game ;)
I've also constructed a wall with a door that's as tall as the front door.
Drawing perspectively correct stairs is a bit of a pain btw, so I left it at correcting the main flaws.
You might want to look at Google SketchUp also.
Quick question regarding perspective - should each ROOM have it's own vanishing point? Or should the world as a whole have one vanishing point, or could it be anything inbetween. Eg, if you had a 2 screen scrolling background, the 2 screen background would have 1 vanishing point.
How important is this to the overall feel of a game?
Imagine a vanishing point depending on where the camera is. If you have a non scrolling room with a vanishing point to the right side, that means the camera is to the right side of the room (assuming this is a dead straight view of a back wall of a room). If the vanishing point is to the left, it would mean the camera is the the left side of the room.
It's a little more difficult with a scrolling room, because technically the camera isn't standing in one spot and panning, it's actually following you.
So if you really think about it, none of the scrolling rooms in AGS have accurate perspective due to technical limitations of it being a 2D background. Once it becomes a scrolling room, you pretty much have to 'fake' the perspective. It's sad, I know. :(
Edit:
Actually there is a cool forum where these guys were trying to figure this out, I bumped into this after posting the above message. Here is how you 'fake' panning of the camera (which would be the camera sitting in one spot rotating around and around):
(http://danfessler.com/dump/gilperspec.gif)
Read more here (http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=7726.0;all).
Quote from: redcapaussie on Tue 12/01/2010 04:28:15
Quick question regarding perspective - should each ROOM have it's own vanishing point? Or should the world as a whole have one vanishing point, or could it be anything inbetween. Eg, if you had a 2 screen scrolling background, the 2 screen background would have 1 vanishing point.
How important is this to the overall feel of a game?
In a word, yes, every room should have at least one vanishing point. Ideally, it would be at the centre point of the camera, although it is ok to have the vanishing point to the left, right, up, down. Depends on the mood. Realistically, you should have this on eye level, or just above, since your characters are unable to shift perspective due to their 2-Dimensionality. But 2 point perspective (ideal for outdoor scenes) will have 2 vanishing points, 3 point will have 3 (ideal for creating a sense of scale with tall buildings, etc, commonly seen in comics, not so much in adventure games. YOu can have more points (like what the other Ryan is showing), but I wouldn't recommend it until you know the rules of perspective backwards.
Quote from: Ryan Timothy on Tue 12/01/2010 05:05:39
So if you really think about it, none of the scrolling rooms in AGS have accurate perspective due to technical limitations of it being a 2D background. Once it becomes a scrolling room, you pretty much have to 'fake' the perspective. It's sad, I know. :(
Edit:
Actually there is a cool forum where these guys were trying to figure this out, I bumped into this after posting the above message. Here is how you 'fake' panning of the camera (which would be the camera sitting in one spot rotating around and around):
(http://danfessler.com/dump/gilperspec.gif)
Read more here (http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=7726.0;all).
That's not "faking", it is how proper perspective acually works. Straight lines will look curved as they go past you. We of course mostly don't notice that, because we tend to focus on just a part of our field of vision.
Laukku, the perspective is faked because in reality the bending of the lines should change as you pan around the room. The edges of the vertical lines should always bend towards the center-line of where you're currently looking. It's dynamic, while this image is static.
And Layabout, a vanishing point only applies to parallel lines. Since we build a lot of boxy things with straight lines and flat sides, it's an important special case of perspective rules, but there's no inherent rule that all backgrounds must have vanishing points.
Also, there are valid drawing styles like isometric perspective that don't use vanishing points at all, even for parallel lines.
Quoteit'll prevent people from having epileptic seizures just from looking at your game
Was that supposed to be a joke, Khris? That kind of commentary just makes me wanna erase everything.
Thanks everyone, but I just don't feel in the mood to correct the mistakes in that room. Feel free to do it if you want, and I'll put you in the credits. Bye!
Quote from: aventurero on Tue 12/01/2010 19:02:28
Quoteit'll prevent people from having epileptic seizures just from looking at your game
Was that supposed to be a joke, Khris? That kind of commentary just makes me wanna erase everything.
You didn't quote the smiley Khris posted. That Smiley should indicate that the phrase wasn't meant too seriously..
Quote from: Snarky on Tue 12/01/2010 17:04:06
And Layabout, a vanishing point only applies to parallel lines.
Not really actually. A vanishing point is used for depth, and angle of view. Imagine a large cylinder type building (a water tower). Just because the base of this water tower is round, doesn't mean you don't use the vanishing point to determine where it stands, and if you can see the top or bottom of this tower.
Edit: But technically you'd be making a square, on the ground (just viewed from straight on, the side, ect). Therefor the lines would be technically still be parallel, to determine the how oval to make the base.
But if you were drawing a building or box in the middle of the room that didn't run parallel to the vanishing point. You'd have to create another vanishing point along the horizon. Unless the object is on an angle as well, then you'd have to create a vanishing point that is below or above the horizon.
Actually, to know whether you can see the top or bottom of (flat-sided, horizontal) objects, you just need to know whether they're above or below the horizon. To draw a cylinder correctly, you don't need to use a particular vanishing point, you can pick any point on the horizon.
Vanishing points can be useful to help you construct other shapes or figure out relative scales, sure, but that's just because many people find it easier to think about space in terms of boxes or planes that they can fill with things. And when you talk about adding "a building or box," the reason you create another vanishing point is, again, simply that they are made out of parallel lines.
Vanishing points are a concept that applies to straight, parallel lines, whether real (the sides of a room or a box) or imaginary (e.g. a pair of lines showing the apparent height of equally tall trees at various distances).
(http://www.bryvis.com/entertainment/other/agsf/vanishingpoint_unparallel.png)
This is what I was referring to. And if the right box is on a side slope, one vanishing point would be above the horizon while the other would be below. (I did this quickly)
And yes, if it's above the horizon, you can't see the top of it. But if it's below the horizon, you use vanishing points, no matter what the object is, to determine the angle you see the top at.
Unless you have some crazy gift that you can draw backgrounds without the use of a vanishing point and have them close to exact.
Edit: Let me rephrase this though. You honestly don't need to do 'realistic' perspective on your backgrounds. As long as it looks close enough to not be noticeable. I don't always use perspective and vanishing points. And when I do (my rooms or scenes are usually viewed from an angle), I toss my 2 vanishing points so far off to the left and right canvas that you'll never have to deal with scaling.
And my point is that this is all because you're just drawing boxes, which are made out of parallel lines. If you were drawing irregular rocks, the vanishing points would help you not one bit.
Quote from: Snarky on Tue 12/01/2010 20:46:44
And my point is that this is all because you're just drawing boxes, which are made out of parallel lines. If you were drawing irregular rocks, the vanishing points would help you not one bit.
Just about every man made object has a parallel line.
But you're right, if you're doing some crazy outdoor scene with irregular shaped objects, you're on your own--but isn't that obvious?
The only time you would really need vanishing points for irregularly shaped objects, is if you wanted to draw similar shaped objects of the same size at different depths (which you've already mentioned).
Yup. ;)
Quote from: Snarky on Tue 12/01/2010 17:04:06
Since we build a lot of boxy things with straight lines and flat sides, it's an important special case of perspective rules
Could anyone help me to correct those wrong perspectives? I'll upload the file, with the 4 backgrounds I've made. It would really help me... :(
-
I won't help you correct your backgrounds because you'll never learn for yourself on how to follow perspective (like I've mentioned before though, it doesn't have to be exact. As long as it's close enough without looking wonky no one will care) You just need the basic understanding first before you can break the rules.
But I'll help you Google it. ;D
Click here: http://tinyurl.com/yb95gyr
All the one point perspective tutorials you'll ever need to understand the principals of a vanishing point.
You don't understand, Ryan. I don't care about drawing. I don't wanna understand. I don't have the time to draw, and I don't like it either. I just do it, because no one does it for me. I like scripting, and making the history. The drawings are just necessary, that's why I draw... otherwise I never would have drawn a room in my life.
Well, still... If anyone can help me... you're welcome.
That may be true aventurero, but we are not here to do the work for you, just to be helpful and give you tips on how to improve :). Personally, I hate drawing backgrounds myself but I don't make excuses for doing it 'wrong'.
Now, either you can take the advice given and apply it to your work or avoid asking for help you don't intend to make use of and continue drawing the backgrounds as you have.
Oh, Prog... I did use all their help. And I found it useful. My words may "sound" bad, but that's because I speak spanish and everything I say in english sounds worse than its meant.
I know you're not here to make the work for me, I wasn't putting any excuses. And WTF... excuse? I don't have to explain anything to you nor anyone. It's just that Ryan didn't say "I won't help you because I don't have the time/I don't want to". He said he wanted me to learn, and I just told him I didn't wanna. Well, that's all. Thanks anyway guys.
Khris allready did the biggest Part of it.
Quote from: Khris on Tue 12/01/2010 00:41:54
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/369/expladv.png)
Just stand in your room and look at what you see. You wont be able to look on the toP of your lamP for examPle...
Yes, I appreciate what Khris draw. It really helped me. But I can't understand this:
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5192/dibujolua.png)
It seems right, but it just doesn't work with lines like Khris' draw. ???
Bigbrother's background there from Apprentice uses 2-point linear perspective, instead of 1. Generally, I encourage first-time background artists to stick to 1-point because it eliminates half of the work involved in perspective drawing - that, and if done incorrectly can have some very strange effects, and can be very difficult to use as a functional game background. If nobody beats me to it between the time I leave my office and get home, I'll show you how it follows the rules, and how it breaks them the right way.
BB has a very well-established background in both realistic and exaggerated images (like the one you cited).
To put it extremely simply, though, 2-point linear perspective, instead of assuming that facing walls are either directly facing the viewer, or directly perpendicular to their line of sight, that the viewer is looking at the room at an angle (as deep or shallow an angle as the artist wishes).
The main issue with 2-point is that in order to really achieve a realistic effect, the vanishing points on your horizon need to be far, far apart, which is exceedingly difficult to do by hand or on a computer. It doesn't have to be, but the closer the VPs are, the more of a 'fish-eye' effect the image is subject to.
That's a two point perspective with the vanishing point being outside of the image. Like in Ryan's post, right green box:
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=39837.msg524718#msg524718
edit: Sorry Mr. Space Pirate, haven't seen your post before :)
Alright, I'm home. Have been for a while, but didn't jump right on top of it. But I'm all about the learning.
So, as a picture is worth a thousand words, let me start by saying this:
(http://i558.photobucket.com/albums/ss21/SpacePirateCaine/apprentice2pp.png263393974)
You will note that there are two sets of red lines that converge at 2 points on a single, horizontal line. Not all of the lines are perfectly aligned, but by and large, you can see that the room very much still follows 'the rules'.
Now, even though each of the vanishing points is a good 2/3 of a whole screen off to either side of our actual game screen, you can see that it still looks a bit squished. Fortunately for this picture, it doesn't suffer for this - as a more 'cartoony' looking game, the brothers Schlaepfer can get away with a little creative license in the way that lines look. You can curve some lines slightly to fit your purposes, but all in all, if you don't at least try to follow the rules, things are going to start messing with your mind.
Now, I'd like to point out a few glaring issues and also offer hypotheses as to why they happened. First being the stairs. That area to the right of the cauldron with a very steep line that doesn't go anywhere near the left VP. Why? Well, I can think of two reasons: one is that because of the discrepancy, your eye actually is naturally attracted to it. Most people don't envision VPs, so it looks 'wrong', but you can't be sure why. That will certainly help when you're looking for the exit from the room and can't find it. The other being that if he followed the rules, the whole stair area would be very small and cramped, and encroach on the dolphin statue's space. Sometimes you need to make a concession in order to put emphasis on something.
The other, and less of a big issue, is the table on the bottom right, with the picture on it. In this case, the table firstly could theoretically be on an angle - since we don't have a point of reference, we can't be for sure - and secondly, the table, if following the rules completely, would take up too much foreground space and start detracting from playable space. It's foreground filler.
Anyway, the point I've been trying to make is that good backgrounds come from knowing how to make one.
Now, you are saying you don't really want to learn to make backgrounds, and if that's the case, no problem at all! But you did post the background in the Critic's Lounge and ask for critique - so that's what we're giving you. Ultimately, if you're happy with it, then that's all that really matters, right?
Oh, great explanation, Pirate. I thought it was 2 points, and made the same thing with the lines that you did. But some lines (exactly the stairs and that table with the picture) didn't fit. So my head was about to explode. Maybe my problem is that I'm to square. Or I follow the rules completely, or I don't follow them at all. I guess you can skip some rules (I don't think any one is gonna start drawing red lines into each of your game's backgrounds :P).
Well, I would like to learn to draw backgrounds, but you see... I'm alone in this, I do everything. Scripting, story, backgrounds, chars, objects, GUIs, etc, etc... So I would really use the help from someone who can at least take one burden off me. I remade one of my rooms, with the perspective-thing. I just have to redraw it with the details and stuff. I'll upload it for you to tell me if I did it right (or just OK, I can live with that :P).
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/3114/nachosroom.png)
Btw: I have trouble to draw circular objects. Any tips?
Making games is not a burden!!! It's supposed to be fun!!!
Perspective aside, what I noticed in that background that I found strange is the bookshelf in front of two windows. Maybe I'm being picky now, but if it was my house I wouldn't have put it there so it could block the light... :)
Quote from: aventurero on Wed 13/01/2010 20:23:17
Btw: I have trouble to draw circular objects. Any tips?
Here's a good visual demonstration:
(http://www.artyfactory.com/perspective_drawing/images/perspective/circle_1a.gif)
(Another image found with Google)
Edit: If you don't make the X match up in the center like that, you'll have an Oval shape instead. :P