Alright, I did some hardcore drawing work tonight.
Meet my old (2004) sprite of John Landy, if you haven't yet:
(http://www.increator.pri.ee/i/crits/john1f.png) (http://www.increator.pri.ee/i/crits/john1.png) (http://www.increator.pri.ee/i/crits/john1p.png)
Original closeup portrait by pixelcat
That's correct, the witty protagonist from The Hamlet (http://more.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/games.php?action=detail&id=469), one of winners of AGS Team Challenge in 2004.
Well, I decided to remake this character and got here:
(http://www.increator.pri.ee/i/crits/john2.png) (http://www.increator.pri.ee/i/crits/john2p.png)
Note that my version of closeup is nowhere as cool as pixelcat's original
Now, what I ask help on, would be colors of John's coat. I'm quite satisfied with rest, but I couldn't get shading and colors on overcoat right. The dark shade seems to be too dark, yet I've experimented alot and cannot get it right.
Also, general C&C would be welcome too, on both images.
Just don't make completely new redraws of whole character, because I probably won't be using those.
Additional question you might ask: Will there be a game? Since me completing a game takes a miracle or dozen, most likely not. Then again, there will always be a possibility...
QuoteJust don't make completely new redraws of whole character, because I probably won't be using those.
Please don't set limitations on how people can help you with your work. In this case I feel a redraw is definitely in order for a few important reasons:
1. The anatomy has some serious issues that cannot be addressed without redrawing the sprite.
2. You are using far too many similar shades in this image, especially for the skin tones (I could barely make out 2 of the colors at all with my monitor contrast up).
3. You can learn a lot from a redraw or a paint over, because it helps you to see what other people are seeing instead of just getting vague critique.
With that in mind, I made a pretty extensive edit of your image to address the issues above, though not to a great degree.
1. Reduced color count drastically, particularly in the face where the shading was making his features blurry rather than detailed.
2. Added some higher contrast shades for the skin, coat, shirt, and jeans instead of using yours so you could see the differences.
3. Reduced the size of the head and the torso so the body comes closer to proper anatomical proportions, though the body should be about 1-2 heads longer if you really want it to look accurate.
4. Reshaded the face with 4 colors instead of 7 and centered the eyes in the middle of the face.
5. Used 3 colors for the clothing, though an additional shade to blend the midtone into the shadow would be a good idea.
6. Re-used colors from the hair for the jacket and shoes to keep color count down.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/john2ed.gif)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/john2ed.gif)
Since I left your colors intact you should be able to see where I used different colors in the edited version. I didn't have time to edit the portrait as well, but I think the original is a good source to work from for shading and color usage.
Ooh, that is GOOD!
Well. You are right about redraws, ProgZ, but I've often got redraws for threads like those I totally don't want to use and it's kind of uncomfortable to ignore such hard work done just to help me.
Nice paintover, still. I totally suck at picking colors, so your image sure is helpful. Especially since I love your work and try to learn from you whenever possible.
Your edit reminds me... Michael Jackson, for some reason, hihi. Dunno why.
Anyway, I decided that
* I will go for 4 shades instead of billion (but not three) on body. I like my multiple skin tones, and there's really not that much of them (5, after cleaning up). Maybe reduce them to 4 also and contrast out more.
* I try to find a middle between your head and mine. I don't like all the skinny and young michaeljacksonish Landy, but not my old, neckless and burly neither. So I need to find some kind of middle version of both... yet stay true to original and still match closeup image.
* From your edit and its superiority over my image, I decided to totally redo coat, and reshade pants & shoes & shirt.
I will remake John and post it here. Not today, probably, but tomorrow.
Thanks!!! :)
Michael Jackson? ;o
I thought my edit made him look like Al Borland, actually :=
(http://www.pmpnetwork.com/richard_karn/richard.jpg)
Haha, I find my neckless, round-faced dude much closer to Al Borland. Especially closeup.
Hate Al, though.
M.Jackson? How?
Pale skin, the way eyes are, thin long neck, little box-shaped head, I dunno!
It simply strikes as Jackson. Maybe someone other is able to see it.
Does the skin really look that pale to you? Have you tried checking your monitor color calibration, because that could be why your colors are so dark. Or maybe you just want his skin to be darker, which is understandable. The colors I used are more reddish than white, which is why I'm curious.
Well, both my home and work computer have quite cranked up brightness. But it's not so Jackson pale really, I'd say beige/pink. I probably will make my skin a bit lighter, but not as light as yours is, I find little tan giving a bit rounder and healthier look :D
Also, I noticed that your edit looks quite happy.
As much as I remember John, he was quite miserable/serious - well, his friend was victim of really bloody murder, so no hesitation here.
Coming back and reading this thread & comparing ProgZ' redraw with mine gives me so much ideas! Sadly, I'm at work and can't implement them :(
To be honest, InCreator's John is more macho than Progzmax's (which really looks like M.J.), and that's why I like it more. A man in a trenchcoat must be macho or he's a wimp:
Ford in Blade Runner
(http://img5.allocine.fr/acmedia/medias/nmedia/18/62/56/10/18816840.jpg)
Snipes in Blade
(http://moviesmedia.ign.com/movies/image/blade-trinity_snipes.jpg)
The whole gang in Matrix
(http://www.knowledgehound.com/images/matrix3.jpg)
Falk as Columbo
(http://kamo.hr/picture/instance_2/140316_2.jpg)
Quote from: InCreator on Mon 26/01/2009 08:00:25
Pale skin, the way eyes are, thin long neck, little box-shaped head, I dunno!
InCreator, I actually thought your character was East Indian. :P (Or is he...?)
I have no clearer vision of him than pixelcat's original closeup, really.
To me, he seems caucasian, probably european.
I wanted a bit older, more experienced and more powerful figure than it was in original game, so I'm trying to put this into character. Something like Max Payne (2) probably, maybe not so gunz-blazing I-want-to-die, but close.
Actually, only one who could knew specifics about the character would be his original creator, Velislav
I will edit him tonight after work and see where I land with this character.
Doublepost!
I'm getting old, because this took WAY more effort than I initially thought.
I tried to follow all ProgZmax's advice, but still ended pretty much going my own way... :P
(http://www.increator.pri.ee/i/crits/john3.png)
2x
(http://www.increator.pri.ee/i/crits/john3.png)
Any better?
His arms looks sort of inflated in the front view without the coat. :-\
Quote from: Crazy on Tue 27/01/2009 21:17:26
His arms looks sort of inflated in the front view without the coat. :-\
Like Pop-eye's arms.
10 brownie points for a paintover of him with an anchor tattoo and a can of spinach.
(http://www.increator.pri.ee/i/crits/john32.png)
2x
(http://www.increator.pri.ee/i/crits/john32.png)
Point taken... and (hopefully) fixed. It's kind of difficult to make the arms...
But keep brownie points (and other, witty yet unhelpful and pointless remarks) for General Discussion please.
I made a quick edit of the current left figure, hope you don't mind:
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3553/john32kn4.gif)
Some preliminary ideas:
1) Outlines: unless you're really intent on keeping them, I suggest to remove the outlines, as I think it looks better without them.
2) Colors: For the shirt, I made the mid-shadow less-saturated (shadows tend to be less saturated than the non-shadows) and I tinted the darkest shade towards blue. For the pants, I did the same (mid-shadow, less saturated), but I also made the darkest shade much darker. I also put a shadow under the dude's head.
3) Posture: I "unglued" his arms from his torso which helps him give a more menacing look, in my opinion.
Other ideas:
Green) When he has the trench coat on, you could try adding an extra pixel or two on his shoulders to indicate the extra "toughness" layer (trench coat: stamina+1, toughness+3, Max HP increase: 15%).
Red) His back left shoulder (our right) I think is a little too high here. You could try lowering it.
As far as anatomy is concerned, you could look it up if you want to be more realistic, but if you don't, then that's A-Okay.
Also, for the shirt (but mostly pants), you could try looking up some references for wrinkles and shading. The pants are currently a little "pillow-shaded" so you could think about adding an overhead lightsource to put the lower sides of the leg in shadow.
Hope that helps!
That DID help, thank you! :)
Well, I don't really know what to do with outlines. I don't like them, but in places, they seem inevitable. Also, no-outlined characters tend to blend into backgrounds often or simply non-outlined details are hard to see from rest. I think I'll go semi-outlined way, trying to use them as little as possible, yet where needed.
About arms:
Sometimes, when I try changing something, I keep bumping on same path thus not getting it right, whatever I try.
I wasn't satisfied about hands being somewhat different in front and diagonal views.
Idea of "ungluing" arms was a fresh breeze here, because I would never come to so simple way myself. All further edits on this would probably have been painful efforts to keep hands "glued" but make them look better. You somehow approached problem from fresh point of view and easily fixed this. It's difficult to describe, but sometimes a designer needs awakening like this... I've noticed this often.
Also, arms make look him much more macho now. I'm not sure about changing shoulders though, he's not THAT tough guy :D
I will try, though.
Color correction was right on spot too, as such minor change seems to make a great difference, looking at it. It turned t-shirt shading on front view something I intended it to be: realistic!
Thanks again!
"Realistic" is a word I'd rather use carefully here, because setting goals too high (such as going extremely realistic in something) have previously meant many abandoned projects for me. So my priorities here are
1) easy to animate
2) Good-looking (colorful, detailed, well-shaded), as much as possible until it interferes with (1)
3) something I can do. I mean, someone could come and make really great edit here, but if it takes heavy effort to follow from me - meaning this is over my head - then I cannot easily animate or produce this. Such as ProgZmax's edit: It's looking helluva good, but his way is much more minimal and therefore requires much more skill - to get more out of less colors/etc.
Maybe I can reproduce 1 or 2 characters - going someone else's style - in reasonable time, but going further, it becomes too complicated to actually get something done. Also, going totally new way means heavy learning, and learning means that by time I finish character number 5, it looks like night and day compared to characters 1 and 2, so I go back to use my improved skills to REDO earlier characters, etc. So I figured to get essential problems out and maximize good looking-ness on what I can do easily and quickly myself. That's also one reason I tried to avoid complete redraws.
...Even though I said "no game", you cannot possibly believe that I'm simply killing time with fixing same dude again and again?