Dear friends, I've come upon an obstacle that fries my non-visual brain.
Here's the background:
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/HRottweiler/stair-hilfe.jpg)
Now, the totally odd-looking thing you see on the right is supposed to be a stairwell (behind a bulk that is now open) leading to a lower level.
I've spent long hours trying to make it look right - yet it doesn't, and I don't know how to fix it.
Sure, it's too narrow, but widening it doesn't help at all.
Can you, with your amazing knowledge of vanishing points, perespectives and other things that make me feel like a drunk baby in the mist, help me in this predicament?
The reason it looks strange to me, is that seeing the whole of the stairway like that puts the vanishing point in a different place than the rest of the image suggests.
Try it with a more central vanishing point, so you only see one wall of the stairway, like this quick & nasty edit (red cross = approx. VP):
(http://www.geocities.com/whoismonkey/stairwell.png)
To me, that looks more natural - but I'm no artist so I could be totally wrong.
I did basically the same edit as Ashen. I found your original reference image image through Google and came up with this quick edit. Try experimenting with something like this instead.
EDIT: Note that placing the vanishing where Ashen did would be more correct than my version.
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/stairwell-edit.jpg)
I think the main problem is thehand rails, they come right up to the door, but they are not there to grab.
Quote from: Moox on Sun 22/01/2006 18:50:04
I think the main problem is thehand rails, they come right up to the door, but they are not there to grab.
I'd say it is a problem, yes. But definitely not the main problem. It has more to do with the vanishing point. Placing it like Ashen (and I) did should do the trick. As for the rail, here's a quick idea how to improve it:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/stairwell-anim1.gif)
Thank you very much, Ashen and Tomas!
I wanted the stairwell to look longer than on your version, it's supposed to be a whole different level after all.
Do you think it's alright now?
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/HRottweiler/stair2.jpg)
Why has everything moved to the right?
Send it back leftwards :)
Looks fine now, interesting style you've chosen to adopt.
Quote from: Sean on Sun 22/01/2006 20:40:19
Why has everything moved to the right?
Send it back leftwards :)
Heh, that's because it's a rightmost corner of a scrolling room - I wanted to show the whole screen the player would see, so that the mysterious VP would be on the "real" middle (is that how it works?)
Quote from: Ashen on Sun 22/01/2006 17:46:31
The reason it looks strange to me, is that seeing the whole of the stairway like that puts the vanishing point in a different place than the rest of the image suggests.
There's nothing else in the image that suggests another vanishing point. All that really needs to be done is add trim to the door and put ends onto the handrails. I would probably shorten the doorway on the lower level too.
Yeah, that's much better. Good job!
Looks perfect.. and kinda scary tho
You probably also want to show the first stair in the very least because right now it looks like a sharp drop (or that the room is more like an elevator). The hall and the area below need visible stairs to make them feel connected. Aside from that it looks great.
Also, id recommend that the door opens outwards, it would be bad architectural design for a door to open 'outwards' onto a sheer flight of stairs for obvious reasons.
Thank you for your input!
ProgZmax - I don't really think that it's possible to show any of the stairs (both the top one and the bottom one) considering the perspective... or am I wrong?
DanClarke: well, this is a mechanical sliding door. It has two wings which slide to the sides, shown in-game in proper animation.
(http://www.locustleaves.com/stair3.png)
was just lacking integration.
That still doesn't look quite right to me. The angle of the guardrail suggests a steep decline and yet the downstairs door is quite high. I made an edit trying to add some visible stairs but it just screwed up the guardrail angle...
Do you have a downstairs area where you live? I'd suggest taking a photo of it from a similar angle or checking google?
(http://members.cox.net/progzmax/stair3.gif)
The top step and the door frame are good additions. Should both doorways be the same width?
I have a small problem with the height (deapth) of the down level.
Architectural-wise, a different level is 22 steps higher-lower than another level. I'm not sure that this is a "different" level we're talking about here but still it seems a little strange, to me at least, to have 5-6 steps and go to a semi-different level. Even a bassement would be very lower than what I see here.
And of course both doors should have the same weidth, except if the left one is a closet of some kind...
But I do love all your art, I have to say... And I'm gald you're striving for perfection ;)
Here's the reference photo I'm quite sure Goldmund used for his image (and the one I used for my edit). No steps visible here.
(http://www.imagesfromhere.com/archives/Stairwell%205903.jpg)
EDIT: I think your background is nice as it is now though. There's really no need to change enything except for maybe adding that frame (as I illustrated in my first edit). The image works very well as a backgound as it is and presents the interactive hot-spots (the door, the card reader(?) and the basement door) in a good way.
Yes, this is the photo I used!
Considering Nikolas' advice - I'll just make the lower doorway smaller to make it look further down.
As for the ProgZmax's stairs - I'll try and make only a narrow top one, maybe it will look better.
The doorway shouldn't be the same width, because, as I said before, the stairs are behind a massive mechanical sliding door. But adding the frame, as Helm did, is a good idea!
Thank you very much; I'll post tonight with the final (?) version.
QuoteNo steps visible here.
Tomas- what do you think this is :) ?
(http://members.cox.net/progzmax/stairs.gif)
It's a difficult perspective to work with, in any case, especially when changing the surroundings.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 23/01/2006 15:39:37
QuoteNo steps visible here.
Tomas- what do you think this is :) ?
(http://members.cox.net/progzmax/stairs.gif)
It's a difficult perspective to work with, in any case, especially when changing the surroundings.
I think it is the edge of the floor with a metal plate on it to protect it from wear. But I guess you could the entire floor a big step too. :)
With sliding doors closed:
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/HRottweiler/stair-fin1.jpg)
...and open:
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/HRottweiler/stair-fin2.jpg)
What do you think?
I'm quite happy with what I've got thanks to your helpful comments!
I think the staircase works fine now. However, the new door frame and the sliding door itself clash with the rest of the background. Perhaps it's the sharp black edge around the door frame, but for some reason it looks more like a drawing than a photograph. I would suggest toning down the contrast for a better match - and note that I preferred the old door frame without visible bolts.
Also, the windows(?) in the door are very black, unless of course the light in the stairwell only turns on once the door is open. I suggest showing a hazy view of the stairwell through the glass, I know it will make it more difficult to animate the door opening, but it shouldn't take too much extra work. I realize though that the background showing through at that height might not work well with the door itself. Another suggestion would be to elongate the window to cover most of the door (showing more of the stairwell), or to remove it entirely.
After seeing the reference photo I'm quite intrigued by the way you construct your backgrounds. Great work!
Quote from: GarageGothic on Mon 23/01/2006 19:16:58
I think the staircase works fine now. However, the new door frame and the sliding door itself clash with the rest of the background. Perhaps it's the sharp black edge around the door frame, but for some reason it looks more like a drawing than a photograph. I would suggest toning down the contrast for a better match - and note that I preferred the old door frame without visible bolts.
Yes, you're right, it has too much contrast. I quite like the frame, though, because it looks worn, not so pristine (it's not a drawing, I made it from a photo of a single metal plank).
QuoteAfter seeing the reference photo I'm quite intrigued by the way you construct your backgrounds. Great work!
Well, it's not much of a hassle, more like some quiet, relaxing past-time. Librarian's work. Only sometimes it's hard to find proper photos of things you want to collage. Like, you type into google images: 'glasses' and you get a photo of a girl in glasses with some other person's intimate member in her mouth. It's distracting.
Thanks for your opinion (valuable as always), but now stop reading the forums, go and finish Shadowplay. We want it.
EDIT: Back to contrast: I've checked it, but I don't know... it's more menacing the way it stands out. I want you to be scared to go down there. I will tone it down, but just a bit. And lighten the outer phase around the frame.
Well, darken the area. It doesn't look menacing when the door opens. You're all, "Oh dear, I want no part of that," and then the door opens and you're like, "well, that's actually quite cheery. I think I'll go have some tea and crumpets down there..."
Another suggestion: you said you liked the frame the way it was because it seemed worn and not quite so pristine... But the rest of the room looks pristine, and I think that's why it doesn't seem to match. You might at least make the walls a little dirty, or at least dirtier the nearer you get to the door.
Also, why not darken the downstairs area (as I suggested in the first paragraph) and then make the window transparent? If you really want to make it look menacing, you could add a black area that animates, toggling on and off, to make it look like the lights downstairs are flickering. This would be visible through a transparent window.
Just some thoughts...
Oh, and Tomas... I know you just probably typed "stairwell" into Google image search, but I must admit I was slightly amazed that you managed to find the original image.
Quote from: esper on Wed 25/01/2006 06:33:41
Another suggestion: you said you liked the frame the way it was because it seemed worn and not quite so pristine... But the rest of the room looks pristine, and I think that's why it doesn't seem to match. You might at least make the walls a little dirty, or at least dirtier the nearer you get to the door.
Yes, the corridor is very bare; my main concern so far was the damned stairwell. Adorning the walls isn't any problem now, I should do it.
QuoteAlso, why not darken the downstairs area (as I suggested in the first paragraph) and then make the window transparent? If you really want to make it look menacing, you could add a black area that animates, toggling on and off, to make it look like the lights downstairs are flickering. This would be visible through a transparent window.
Well, it's a very good idea, but I'm afraid I've overused the flickering lights effect in my game already :-) The effect I've come up with for this stairwell it's the kind of unnerving type of light very quickly changing brightness - it looks like in the old silent films, very atmospheric.
Thank you for your suggestions!
QuoteOh, and Tomas... I know you just probably typed "stairwell" into Google image search, but I must admit I was slightly amazed that you managed to find the original image.
Heh, I too was impressed; but note that it's actually the only image that comes up in Google which has the proper perspective.