Ok, I’ve got a character I’ve designed and drawn and I’m not very good at drawing just ordinary people. They all seem to turn out very “super-heroish†so I was wondering what your first impressions of this are:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/isabella.gif)
Boy or Girl?
Spoiler
Girl.
Mood?
Spoiler
A tad grumpy.
Age?
Spoiler
16.
Your feedback is greatly appreciated. Like I said already I’m not that good at not drawing a normal character so I’m wondering what your first impressions are.
Wow I didn't expect it being a girl at all. With those big blocky shoulders, lack of breasts, solid cheek bone, and really big feet.
The sweater being pink doesn't even help. lol
Ugh. This is exactly what I’m talking about. I’m trying to move away from this:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/h20_girl.gif)
/sigh, I'm just no good at drawing a normal girl.
I did a quick paintover if you don't mind...
I softened her cheek out a bit and gave her a more girlish shape... as she's supposed to be sixteen, she should have a little curves. I also made her shoulders less pointy.
(http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5997/girlsm2.png) (http://imageshack.us)
She still looks like she's going to beat me up though. :)
I imagine it's those clenched fists and the rolled up sleeves that make her look like she's going to kick someone's ass.
The paint over is much more feminine though. It's a nice style, just needs some fine tuning on the female anatomy.
Well, besides, her punches are holding so tight that it looks as if she's going to beat someone. The facial expression looks a bit unfriendly too.
Edit:
Quick paint over, hope you won't mind. (I used a pixel graphic software, so I later gave up touching those anti-aliased lines, just live with the pixeled jaggy lines on the editted parts.)
(http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr249/gilbot/isabellagc.png)
- Changed her eyes and mouth, hopefully made her looks less angry.
- Though smoothing out some of the sharp angles (like what MantraofDoom did) in the shape may help, I decided that those are part of your style, so I rather keep them.
- Lowered shoulders a bit (but tried to keep the sharp angles) to make her less... er... fighter style.
- Boobs!
- Changed punches into hands.
- Though I think the looooong body is part of your style, I still decided to shorten her torso as well as shortening her arms to deal with the change, as I think the loooong body did account for the "Hero" look.
I like both paintovers and think you should lean towards them and take the advice they've mentioned.
But I think Gilbot really summed it up:
Quote- Boobs!
Honestly, I thought it was a man, and it even reminded me of either me or my brother (we'd both wear that style---rolled up sleeves, pink, converse, tight shirt and pants, and we're both tall and skinny)
~Trent
She seemed male to me as well. I really like the superhero chick you drew!
My advice is to give her some more feminine characteristics. I only have paint, but here is a quick paintover (of Gilbot's paintover):
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/girl16grumpy.PNG)
I made her feet smaller, her waist less straight, her face girlier. Her arms are pretty buff for a 16 year old girl, too. Also, she's really tall, and the archetypal 16 year old girl ain't that tall. Of course, I understand that characters should be unique, it's just another thing that makes her look boyish.
With these closed eyes and clenched fists she looks more like someone that will kick your butt when she first meets you... ;) She looks a little bit like that girl from the Dark Angel's series (never watched them, only saw a couple of posters := ) Ben304's paintover gives her a more decent look...The hands and the forehead(looks a little bit like a forehead from the Stone Age :D ) need to be fixed on my opinion though.
Gilbet V7000a 's torso. The original arms, and MantraofDoom's head would make the perfect edit! :D
Not all 16-year-olds have large boobs though.
Quote from: Ionias on Tue 11/11/2008 01:44:56
Ok, I’ve got a character I’ve designed and drawn and I’m not very good at drawing just ordinary people. They all seem to turn out very “super-heroish” so I was wondering what your first impressions of this are:
Boy or Girl?
Mood?
Age?
Gender: Didn't know (wasn't surprised it was a girl, but wouldn't have been surprised if it had been a boy either)
Mood: was clear
Age: Didn't know.
On the subject of 'her' gender:
face
- The first thing I would do is make her nose slightly smaller.
Hard (or big) features like this give her a masculine look.
- I might add definition to her lips, but it shouldn't be necessary
since this definition is mostly caused by make up, and girls
without make up are still recognizable as such.
- add a little curvature to her eyebrows. Straight eyebrows
are often perceived as more masculine than curved eyebrows.
(compare Ben's edit)
body
- In general a female's body is more curved than a male's body.
However, because of her age, and immaturity of her body
(from the looks of it) this curvature make be limited.
- Women have - in general - a pelvis that is about as wide as
their shoulders (as opposed to men, who's shoulders are
normally far wider than their pelvis). The exception to this rule
are super-hero's (http://www.tvguide.com/images/pgimg/justice-wonder-woman7.jpg) by the way. For even though their shoulder-
to-pelvis-ration is much lower then their masculine counterparts,
it's still much bigger than normal. This is something to take into
account when avoiding the super-heroish look.
breasts
- breasts should not be necessary. I know several mature
women with (really) small breasts. Still they are easily
identifiable as women (even without DNA tests and such).
However, even if her body is still mostly immature, I would
advise to add at least some curvature here.
(although I think the breasts in Gilbet's edit are a to big for
the character).
stance
- In general weight on both feet will appear more masculine,
whereas weight on one foot (while rotating the pelvis and
shoulders) is considered more feminine. (example) (http://www.reallusion.com/ContentStore/iClone/pack/BodySuit/images/mimage.jpg)
Ps. I don't think the edits made her better...
I second everything Misj' said.
And point out that I don't like this "girl" at all. Not your art, it's fine, but the girl in general: Long sweater, those footwear, pants and really unattractive feministjugend face, sorry, no.
In a game, I would imagine her as extremely annoying and mean person. The kind that bitches all day about men being pigs and people pointless idiots overall.
When drawing women, pay attention to manga "rules": Big eyes, long eyelashes, less nose and mouth that goes with the packet. It makes drawn women cute. Simply stay to human proportions.
Your girl has everything opposite: tiny, evil/bored-to-death eyes, an enormous nose and mouth that doesn't add anything to the rest.
Although I agree that she could be more realistically female in body shape, I think it's kind of self-absorbed and unimaginative (and sexist, sorry) to suggest that female characters should be portrayed as someone one would personally find attractive 100% of the time in every way. :P We rarely hear, "change your wizard sprite like this because he's not sexy enough."
God forbid we should be asked to identify with a plain, unhappy, nerdy, or even -gasp- mannish girl. :=
There's body shape, which people have made really useful comments on, and then there's personal style, which Ionias hasn't told us much about for this character yet.
;) TRY THIS ;)
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/e0045a6a5b.png)
Quote from: pslim on Tue 11/11/2008 21:46:31
Although I agree that she could be more realistically female in body shape, I think it's kind of self-absorbed and unimaginative (and sexist, sorry) to suggest that female characters should be portrayed as someone one would personally find attractive 100% of the time in every way. :P We rarely hear, "change your wizard sprite like this because he's not sexy enough."
God forbid we should be asked to identify with a plain, unhappy, nerdy, or even -gasp- mannish girl. :=
But he wasn't going for a plain, unhappy, nerdy, or mannish girl, he said he wanted a normal 16 year-old girl.
~Trent
Quote from: Trent R on Wed 12/11/2008 00:03:04
But he wasn't going for a plain, unhappy, nerdy, or mannish girl, he said he wanted a normal 16 year-old girl.
~Trent
What's normal? :P Oh, right, perfectly proportioned happy bouncy cheerleaders. :-\
Actually, I was going for a slightly tom boyish 16 year old girl who has a bit of an attitude problem. But looking at some of the edits and reading all the advice, I can see I made her much too manly. I was afraid of this in the first place, thus why I posted it here to confirm it. :)
Anyways, I’m going to have another crack at her taking into account everyone’s suggestions. I will say that my style does lend to sharp lines and exaggerated features and I’m finding it very hard to tone it down and still get my point and style across.
I’m looking forward to redrawing her especially with the new stance that you suggested Misj’ I think that will go a long ways in helping to identify her as a female, haha. I don’t want to giver her breasts though only because I wanted a taller, skinny, do it herself kind of character. I’m not saying she should be ugly, I’d like her to be cute mind you but not attractive in the typical girlish way … if that makes any sense. I think I’ll bump up the curves and try and tone down the hands. With any luck and some free time I’ll post the outcome.
I just left highschool months ago, and yes, normal girls with normal bust sizes have breasts.
Ionias, I might even suggest that you think of giving her a little bit of cleavage (how much exactly is up to you, I'd say a bit more than Mantra's paintover). Sometimes tomboyish girls act that way because their body portrays a femininity they don't want to show, but does anyway.
That doesn't seem like it came out right. Did I make enough sense?
~Trent
I did a quick free-hand sketch (not taking anatomy too much into account) during one of my - way to many - meetings. It's partly an extension/repetition of my previous post (sorry for that).
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Misj_isabella_100b.png) (http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Misj_isabella_400b.png)
<click image to enlarge>
The reason why I made this sketch was to point out a few things:
1. The face doesn't have to be particularly girly to be feminine. The goal is not to create a Disney-princess here. If she's a tomboy, then make up is not her first priority.
2. Curves and 'soft angles' (for her body) increase the feminine look.
3. Cleavage (which is the most discussed subject in this thread :) ) is not an essential feminine feature to distinguish between genders (particularly not for teens).Yes, many girls in the teens already have breasts (although a lot of them also use fill-up bra's, which would not fit the tomboy character). This is - by the way - more than, let's say, fifteen years ago due to a more extensive use of birth control pills at a relatively young age (the first menstrual cycle is also often earlier than it was fifteen years ago)...and you can guess what all these hormones do to their body. Men should really thank medicine for side-effects. Nevertheless, I know women in their thirties that are quite flat chested (or started developing breasts in their late teens), and it doesn't make them any less feminine.
4. Stance can really make someone more famine (it's also great to turn men gay). Moreover, toughness of the stance does not have to compromise femininity (which according to my spell-checker is a word).
Hope this is useful (to somebody)...
Quote from: Misj' on Wed 12/11/2008 14:02:55
Hope this is useful (to somebody)...
Yes, Misj’ your (double) post is useful. I did try to change her stance to that thumbnail you posted. However, this brought her right back into “super-hero†territory again. :) Here is another attempt at it that I tried after that attempt. I’m not happy with it so I didn’t bother to ink it but it shows where I’m headed, and I think it shows how I tried to incorporate everyone’s ideas.
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/isabella_sketch.gif)
I’m not sure I like the new shoes. I’m going to lose the bell bottoms they make her look to cliché’ and I’m going to give her a pony tail. I think the pony tail would be more in line with her character. I’m going to try and keep the new hips. I think I can get by with even less breasts than what she’s got at the moment, at least that’s my goal. Anyways, I’m sort of rambling here but if anyone wanted to give me some last minute ideas before I do her final version and ink it, now would be a great time. :) I got a pretty busy weekend ahead of me but I’d really like to get this under my belt.
Have you tried using reference images? I found this render that might help you:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=59237
A couple of things to pay attention to would be the torso length (yours is too long), the leg length, and the sloping of the shoulders. Correcting these will help you establish a more feminine form.
I was just about to say:
Go look at some naked women. =P
I suppose you got y point across though Prog.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Thu 13/11/2008 03:31:42
Have you tried using reference images?
When I’m trying to create an original character I’m entirely opposed to the idea of reference images. That’s just me. Whenever I draw from a reference work whatever the final out come makes up in anatomical correctness it seems to lack in creativity.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Thu 13/11/2008 03:31:42
A couple of things to pay attention to would be the torso length (yours is too long), the leg length, and the sloping of the shoulders. Correcting these will help you establish a more feminine form.
Heh, if you look closely at the above sketch you can see my notes to shorten the torso. I will definitely be playing around with the shoulders and leg length like you mentioned though, thanks for the ideas.
Quote from: Questionable on Thu 13/11/2008 17:28:19
Go look at some naked women. =P
My problem doesn’t stem from not understanding female anatomy or being unable to draw it. I think the problem lies in my being unable to draw the female form without the exaggerated anatomy that you always find in the comics. This is my first proper attempt at drawing anything but your typical big breasted “hottie†… but perhaps I bit off more than I can chew by going in the exact opposite direction.
The only thing I see that's holding back this female from appearing female is your use of lines. You have sharp angles all over the place.
Try drawing her without any straight lines, not as the final piece but just as an experiment. Also, in your last concept piece it seems as though her torso is sprouting from her hips, it has this odd faun/satyr look to it.
I understand that you're going for a tom boy look but most tom-boys are STILL women, what makes them instantly recognizable are their "chosen appearances." A Baseball cap, a hoodie, a short hair cut. They like maintenance free but still girly. You've drawn a man with boobs, there's nothing here that makes her a girl which is your MAIN problem. The tom boy thing is easy, her attitude will tell us that.
Let's focus on what Misj said. Curves!
Ok, it took me longer to get back to this than I expected. Here are my final pencils on her, and unless anyone sees any glaring suggestions I’ll commence the inking. A lot can be done in the inking process and any final ideas will be taken into consideration. :)
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/isabella_sketch2.gif)
Quote from: Ionias on Fri 14/11/2008 04:09:49
Quote from: Questionable on Thu 13/11/2008 17:28:19
Go look at some naked women. =P
My problem doesn’t stem from not understanding female anatomy or being unable to draw it. I think the problem lies in my being unable to draw the female form without the exaggerated anatomy that you always find in the comics. This is my first proper attempt at drawing anything but your typical big breasted “hottie†… but perhaps I bit off more than I can chew by going in the exact opposite direction.
Yeah I find that pretty hard to accomplish too, specially when there isn't a formula available (such as hotties)!
But I use references even when I don't intend to create a photographic human being, though. Mainly to check proportions once in a while...
Here's what I mean:
(http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/7613/isabellastefanolb8.gif)
Well it’s certainly true that a picture is worth a thousand words as your sketch proves Stefano. Thank you so much for taking the time to draw out what everyone has been trying to get thru my thick skull. :) It’s so easy to see my problems with the side by side comparison.
Anyways, here is where all this work and C&C ended me at. Here are the final pencils and ink/color:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/isabella_final.gif)
What do you guys think? Myself, I think its nicely improved.
... and in case you’re curious here is the final rendering of her sprite as she’ll appear imported into AGS in-game.
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/isabella_sprite_thumb.gif)x1 (http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/isabella_sprite.gif)x2
Excellent, IMO. Shows both feminine and tom-boy.
Can't wait to see the other characters :D and the entire game.
~Trent
Wow! Excellent job, Ionias.
I'm glad my raw image helped, even if only a tiny bit.
Niptick: The white pixels on the AA of the lines...
they'll probably pop up against darker backgrounds?
Anyway, "The Adventures of Fatman" was the very first AGS game I played back in the day so I'm really eager to see more/play this one. ;)
I think it's improved nicely, Ionais. About the only issue I see is she still suffers from the manly shoulder effect. Think of female shoulders as being concave rather than convex from the neck to the upper arm and you should have no problem 8) .
To put it visually:
Less like:
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/shoulder1.gif)
More like:
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr218/ProgZmax/shoulder2.gif)
Quote from: Trent R on Thu 20/11/2008 00:50:10
Excellent, IMO. Shows both feminine and tom-boy.
Thanks, and might I just add, finally. :)
Quote from: Stefano on Fri 21/11/2008 03:16:07
I'm glad my raw image helped, even if only a tiny bit.
Thanks, and your image helped a lot. Being able to see my character’s skeleton flaws pointed out visually was very helpful. I’ve read the 6 ½ heads rule(s) and such but I must admit I’ve never paid much heed to them, ha-ha. Well, I’ll certainly try and take them into account more in the future.
Quote from: Stefano on Fri 21/11/2008 03:16:07
Niptick: The white pixels on the AA of the lines...
they'll probably pop up against darker backgrounds?
I’m not sure why when I export as a .gif from Photoshop that my transparency gets a little screwed up. In the game when I import it as .png it all looks fabulous and all those AA pixels with their accompanying alpha channel all blend into any color background with perfection. I must give props to CJ for that alpha channel. :)
Quote from: Stefano on Fri 21/11/2008 03:16:07
Anyway, "The Adventures of Fatman" was the very first AGS game I played back in the day so I'm really eager to see more/play this one. ;)
“Back in the day...†eh? Wow, I really do need to finish another game one of these days, maybe even this one, ha-ha.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Fri 21/11/2008 15:18:16
I think it's improved nicely, Ionais. About the only issue I see is she still suffers from the manly shoulder effect. Think of female shoulders as being concave rather than convex from the neck to the upper arm and you should have no problem 8) .
Thanks for the feedback ProgZ, here are some samples of where I tried to incorporate your suggestion. However, with the new shoulders, she seemed to lose my style so I made a compromise with the “final†version of her. But you tell me which version of her you prefer?
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/isabella_final3.gif)
… and thanks for the visual. :) I’ve no idea why visuals sink in so easily and descriptions don’t. I guess it’s why I prefer comic books to the “real†thing, ha-ha.
Ya, I like the Curves much better. I think the Final is too broad and square. I still get the tomboy impression from Curves.
I think the version with curves looks much better, though the final is still better than the original if you are determined to use sharp edges.
I actually like the original best of those three. The shoulders in the 'final' look sharp and pointy and therefore unnatural.
But, I'm not an artist like those above me.
~Trent