Adventure Game Studio

Creative Production => Critics' Lounge => Topic started by: aussie on Wed 06/10/2004 09:59:17

Title: Girl for c/c on coloring in (UPDATE 6/DEC/04)
Post by: aussie on Wed 06/10/2004 09:59:17
Hi. I colored in this picture with Photoshop 5.5 and I'm interested in feedback on coloring in techniques (not so on the sketch itself).

(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/GalForums.gif)

I used four layers:

1. Top: Pencil scan. Multiplied. 50% opacity.
2. Upper middle: Coloring layer. Normal.
3. Bottom middle: Black and white outline (from adjusting b/w curves). Normal.
4. Background (which I deleted at the end).

What I basically did was to select white areas from layer three and color them in in layer 2. Layer 1, being only half opaque, allows for the shading from the original pencil drawing.

Anyway. Comments anyone?


EDIT: I know some of the edging came out in green when I save it for the web. I was a bit lazy to fix it. Sorry.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: James Kay on Wed 06/10/2004 10:19:08
Yeah, the black outlines are way too pixelly, I recon.
You should have left the outlines in greyscale (8 bit) and used a non-opaque ink setting on your brush to paint *underneath* the outline's anti-aliasing (leaving the black of the outline in tact).

>> I just tried to figure out which ink you need, but as my photoshop here is in Japanese I can't help you much.Ã,  :( Sorry.

Shame you don't want any crits on the sketch itself otherwise I could have thrown in some praise too.Ã,  ;D
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: Pft! on Wed 06/10/2004 10:30:01
The nose is not that visable?
Other than that its cool.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: Al_Ninio on Wed 06/10/2004 10:47:32
Well, a great method for painting pencil sketches is to scan it normally, but in PS, add a multiply layer and paint on that layer.
That way, the sketch is still visible through the paint.
Also, I made a *tiny* paintover, just added some shading, hope you don't mind.

(http://www.terran-x.com/al/GalForumspaintover.gif)

Shading legs is hard :(
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: aussie on Wed 06/10/2004 10:54:08
Thanks all. Any tips on how to remove the pixelly look? Here's the sketch.

(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/galsketch.gif)


Highwaygal:

QuoteWell, a great method for painting pencil sketches is to scan it normally, but in PS, add a multiply layer and paint on that layer.

I'm not sure how that's different from what I did. Do you mean I would have to redraw the outline in the new multiplied layer and then color it in? Or would I just have to select sections from the bottom layer then color them in in the top one?

BTW, nice shading.


James Kay:

I'm interested in that non-opaque ink bit. Could you be a bit more specific?




Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: Al_Ninio on Wed 06/10/2004 10:59:13
Ah, I guess I didn't explain very well.
What I meant was, when you colour your sketch, leave the pencil layer as normal, but set the paint layer on multiply.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: BorisZ on Wed 06/10/2004 11:00:03
Quote from: aussie on Wed 06/10/2004 10:54:08
Any tips on how to remove the pixelly look?

The best (and only really functional way) would be to import image into some of the vector drawing programs (corel draw, freehand, Ã, ilustrator, flash), and then draw it again.
What is the original form of your image (is it scaned or made entirely in photoshop)?
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: aussie on Wed 06/10/2004 11:11:29
QuoteThe best (and only really functional way) would be to import image into some of the vector drawing programs (corel draw, freehand,Ã,  ilustrator, flash), and then draw it again.
What is the original form of your image (is it scaned or made entirely in photoshop)?

It's a scanned pencil sketch.

I would have to look into that vector thingie, I guess. How would you go about re-drawing the sketch in illustrator?

QuoteAh, I guess I didn't explain very well.
What I meant was, when you colour your sketch, leave the pencil layer as normal, but set the paint layer on multiply.

I see, that makes sense.

But I suppose I would have to really clean up the pencil sketch so the magic wand works. That's why I had another layer just in b/w.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: Al_Ninio on Wed 06/10/2004 11:17:30
Well, I would suggest not working with the magic wand tool when painting, try colouring it freehand and just clean up after.
If you really feel the need to make a selection, use the poligon lasso tool, that way you can keep the sketch sketchy and awesome.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: aussie on Wed 06/10/2004 11:22:21
Quote
Well, I would suggest not working with the magic wand tool when painting, try colouring it freehand and just clean up after.

Wouldn't that take ages? (it only took me about 15 min to color this on in).

Do you have any examples of the coloring in technique you're suggesting? I just would like to compare the final outcome.


BTW, I don't want to look rude. I just want to discuss which way works better. Thanks for all those suggestions you're giving me.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: Al_Ninio on Wed 06/10/2004 11:26:29
Not the greatest example, but one nonetheless:
http://www.sylpher.com/highwaygal/life3.jpg
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: aussie on Wed 06/10/2004 11:29:58
I see. Thanks.

I'll give it a go.

Any suggestions on the pixelly look bit?


<<<EDIT>>>

Highwaygal,

I did the face using the method you suggested (right) and compared it to the original one (left).

(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/galcomparison1.gif)

I think yours works better, and it even reduces the pixelly look.  Plus it didn't take that long...

Still, I'd really like to get sharper lines. Maybe I need to ink the sketch?
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: TheDude on Wed 06/10/2004 14:16:48
Try resizing the image to a large resolution (2500+ wide). Then re-draw the entire picture on a new layer. You can then colour it using a Multiply layer.

This won't turn out well unless you're using a drawing tablet.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: Neutron on Wed 06/10/2004 14:45:12
I would add a strong highlight to the hair. For resizing, I would just scale it down, then redraw the outline using the pencil tool.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: James Kay on Wed 06/10/2004 15:04:01
I also meant "multiply", but set your brush ink to multiply and then you won't need to use a seperate layer.

Best steps:
1. scan image
2. Adjust brightness/contrast to "simulate" inking (play around with this and also "levels" till you get a nice black/white balance without it getting pixelly).
3. Clean up dirt (just use an eraser brush to get rid of small unneccesary pixels and lines.
4. Colour in with the ink on your brush set to "multiply".

The problem with making the original too big is that
a. you are not working WYSIWYG. When sizing down you may lose things you spent a lot of time working on, or you'll encounter problems not visible on the full-sized image.
b. It takes a lot longerÃ,  ;D

It would be ideal to work in the resolution you intend to use the image at, but if you're unsure and what to hide blemishes and inaccuracies, no more than twice the size of the inteded final image should suffice.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: Al_Ninio on Wed 06/10/2004 15:22:40
Quote from: James Kay on Wed 06/10/2004 15:04:01
I also meant "multiply", but set your brush ink to multiply and then you won't need to use a seperate layer.

Well, maybe he won't NEED to use a seperate layer, but using a seperate layer is always a good idea.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: James Kay on Wed 06/10/2004 16:10:25
"using a seperate layer is always a good idea. "

Very very true. So are incremental saves and backups. Always keep a copy of the original, having a large history track, etc.Ã,  :)

The problem with layer inks, though, is that sometimes through merging you can screw up the ink settings. Try merging a "multiply" layer with a "overlay" layer and the result will be set to "normal". You'll need to flatten the layers onto the final artwork (be that the background layer or a seperate one) for the effect to be frozen.
Not a big problem if you're aware of it, though.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: on Wed 06/10/2004 16:53:34
Thanks for all that feedback. Very much appreciated.

So as I gather, the bottomline is that I'm not going to get rid of the pixelly stuff unless I painstakingly use the rubber to make the drawing look sharp. Right?

The digitizing tablet does not look like a bad idea at all. The only trouble is that my tablet is quite small, so it's hard to draw things well. Plus I'm not particularly good at drawing different parts of a picture and assembling them together at the end.

Oh well...

Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: James Kay on Thu 07/10/2004 01:56:00
Yeah, I'm afraid it's probably better to start again from the original (scanned) sketch,
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: aussie on Fri 08/10/2004 16:05:51
Oh, well, I thought so.

Any tips on the drawing tablet bit?
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: stuh505 on Sun 10/10/2004 22:30:46
When I want to remove the pixelation, there are two techniques I use.

If I am dealing with gradients (as in a photograph), I use the blur tool to blur together places where I know should be the same color, and to make edges less pixelated.

If I am dealing with solid colors, I use the marquee selection tool.  HEre Ill show an example of both techniques..

(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/blurex.jpg)

(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/blurex2.jpg)
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: aussie on Mon 11/10/2004 09:00:44
Wow, that second one really looks good!!! I think I should try to apply it to my pic. I don't undestand what I'm meant to do with the marquee tool, though... ???

With the first one, I guess the trouble comes if you want to change the colours, doesn't it?

Good feedback. Thanks.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: stuh505 on Mon 11/10/2004 13:34:06
The way I do it is simply use the select additional and select negative to make a smooth selection around the shapes, then I get rid of the original layer and just fill in my new selection...voila, crisp edges.

This would be pretty time consuming to do on your image though because of the edges and lines which would all need to be outlined.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: aussie on Mon 11/10/2004 17:56:35
With the marquee tool???

???
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: Eggie on Mon 11/10/2004 17:58:38
Um...I don't have any crits. I just want to say; that picture is a really, really awesome picture and I love it and now I'm going to download your game because that's how awesome your drawing style is....

Ahem...

Oh yeah...and maybe you could try converting the lineart to vectors. I've seen some really awesome colouring done with vectorised lines...
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: stuh505 on Mon 11/10/2004 22:27:27
Aussie,

Ok, here I will show you what I mean.

1) I use polygonal lasso to outline the black areas, fill that in on its own layer.Ã,  this goes on the top layer
2) For each large color area, I select that area and fill it in with the appropriate color and put it on it's own layer in the appropriate order so as to reduce the amount of lasso-ing I have to do
3) I select all the shadowed areas, fill it in black, and put it on top of all the color layers and adjust the opacity until the shadows look proper

The smudge effect is the best way I have found to enlarge photographs...but this seems to be the best way to enlarge "color-coded" things without appearing to lose detail

EDIT - I accidentally modified someone elses edit in the smudge one...although, I do like their edits...it is not fair for the comparision that they dont appear on the others

(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/sharpnesscompare.jpg)
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: aussie on Wed 13/10/2004 09:28:37
I love the third one. That's the sort of crisp finishing I was after.  ;D
I'll have to give it a go myself now...
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in
Post by: on Thu 14/10/2004 15:26:58
A first attempt at Stuh's lasso technique (on a much rougher sketch):

(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Comparison2.gif)

I guess I still need some more practice, but I think I'm getting the hang of it.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in (new art)
Post by: stuh505 on Thu 14/10/2004 16:00:37
not bad, but don't be afraid to zoom into 400% and make your lasso clicks a lot closer together; try to make the black outline much thinner.

when you are making the color layers, do not just use the magic wand selection tool...it will result in the white outlines which I can see.  Instead use the lasso tool again and select an the halfway point between the black outlines.  this way you know it will go right up to the edge.

this picture also isn't as good so the result isn't going to look as good  := it might look a little better if you shaded the hair as well.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in (new art)
Post by: aussie on Thu 14/10/2004 16:06:20
Righto.

So a crap-load of lassoing you mean... I was trying to simplify the job with the magic wand, but I think you're right.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in (new art)
Post by: stuh505 on Thu 14/10/2004 22:16:42
when I originally was giving you suggestions, I did not think that the lasso technique could be applied to this type of image...I usually only use it for solid colors without outlines.  so I gave it a shot and yeah it worked out...but it's a lot of work, took about an hour probably...
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in (new art)
Post by: James Kay on Fri 15/10/2004 02:01:48
Why not experiment with the magic wand and (E)xpand selection and (F)eather selection.
The problem with "Quick, Easy Fixes" is that the end result is never quite as good as doing the whole thing properly from the start.

Really nice sketches by the way! Get yourself a pegboard and do some animations.Ã,  ;D
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in (new art)
Post by: Evil on Fri 15/10/2004 02:50:43
Heres a quick one I did with a "crap load" of lassoing.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/evil1359/aussie_gal.gif)
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in (new art)
Post by: aussie on Fri 15/10/2004 09:37:41
Stuh:

Still, even if it's a lot of work, you get a pretty good finishing. Now I just need to get you to work out a better technique for me.  ;D

Evil:

That's pretty nice actually. Your girl is not cross-eyed like mine.


James Kay:

Quote from: James Kay on Fri 15/10/2004 02:01:48
Why not experiment with the magic wand and (E)xpand selection and (F)eather selection.
The problem with "Quick, Easy Fixes" is that the end result is never quite as good as doing the whole thing properly from the start.

Now, that's a thought.

Quote
Really nice sketches by the way! Get yourself a pegboard and do some animations.Ã,  ;D

I think I'm too lazy for that. Anyway, I'm just learning to color things for now.

ALL:

BTW, my second scan is not particularly good. Any good tips for scanning pencil drawings properly (the first one was a bit of a lucky shot, I think  :-\).


Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in (new art)
Post by: James Kay on Fri 15/10/2004 09:42:04
Quote from: aussie on Fri 15/10/2004 09:37:41BTW, my second scan is not particularly good. Any good tips for scanning pencil drawings properly (the first one was a bit of a lucky shot, I thinkÃ,  :-\).
Apart from inking it before you scan it?

Photoshop: (I)mage > (A)djust : try levels, brightness/contrast.
These options should also be available on your scanner, so epseriment with those too.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in (new art)
Post by: aussie on Fri 15/10/2004 09:44:06
Yeah, the sketches I'm showing are the result from adjusting levels, contrast and all that stuff.

I always stuff things up when I ink my sketches   :P
Title: Girl for c/c on coloring in (UPDATE 6/DEC/04)
Post by: aussie on Mon 06/12/2004 16:22:32
Here's a new pic.

#1 is the sketch once colored in and without the sketch marks.
#2 is the sketch once colored in and with the sketch marks.
#3 is the sketch itself.

I think it's going well and looks pretty good as long as you don't pay too much attention. I like #2 the best, but it's not quite "clean" enough.

I've also hit a bit of a wall now: I'm not sure how to deal with shading.

Comments on coloring in/shading are most welcome. Comments on the sketch are too, but I'm not as interested.

(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Amy.gif)
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in (UPDATE 6/DEC/04)
Post by: Al_Ninio on Mon 06/12/2004 16:46:20
I know you don't want c&c on the sketch, but I'm not too keen on it, if the lineart doesn't work, neither will the coloured sketch.
Anyhoo. The lines don't "flow". Do a few gesture drawings (http://www.awn.com/mag/issue3.3/3.3pages/3.3vilppudrawing.html) (quick drawings meant to capture the movement, pose, and rhythm of a subject) and you will surely improve in that aspect.
Curve the lines, arch her back, etc etc. Add 'rhythm'.

Moving on to the colouring, I suppose you could go for a Shane Glines-ish (http://www.shaneglines.net/) approach, which appears (to me) to suit your style, and is generally just rock awesome.
The coloured edges seem too angular, some are anti-aliased and some are not, wich creates incosistency.
My suggestion is to a) improve the sketch, it has potential.
b) study some of Shanes art, if this is the style you are trying to achieve, and c) try using the pen tool instead of the lasso tool for this kind of colouring, with no outlines.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in (UPDATE 6/DEC/04)
Post by: aussie on Tue 07/12/2004 09:31:29
QuoteI know you don't want c&c on the sketch, but I'm not too keen on it, if the lineart doesn't work, neither will the coloured sketch.

I guess you're right there. Perhaps I was a bit self-confident.

QuoteAnyhoo. The lines don't "flow". Do a few gesture drawings (quick drawings meant to capture the movement, pose, and rhythm of a subject) and you will surely improve in that aspect.

That's very interesting feedback actually. However, this is just intended to be a girl in a static pose. I'm not sure how to introduce "flow" here.

QuoteMoving on to the colouring, I suppose you could go for a Shane Glines-ish approach, which appears (to me) to suit your style, and is generally just rock awesome.

It probably does fit my style, sort of. But I prefer outlines - I should probably try inking the sketch like somebody suggested before.

QuoteThe coloured edges seem too angular, some are anti-aliased and some are not, wich creates incosistency.

I think you're right.

QuoteMy suggestion is to a) improve the sketch, it has potential.
b) study some of Shanes art, if this is the style you are trying to achieve, and c) try using the pen tool instead of the lasso tool for this kind of colouring, with no outlines.

a) Thanks, I'll give it another go.
b) I think I'll give old Shane a miss for the moment, even if it's quite an interesting suggestion for the future.
c) I'll see what I can do with the pen.
Title: Re: Girl for c/c on coloring in (UPDATE 6/DEC/04)
Post by: aussie on Tue 07/12/2004 16:44:23
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Amy4.gif)

I inked the sketch and tried again. The first pic shows the final product, the second is just colored in flat. I followed some of Highwaygal's instructions.

Some of the shading looks ok to me, but overall I think there's still a lot of room for improvement.

Would anyone like to have a stab at it?