Well the title says it all... I've been working on this background for the past couple weeks and it's driving me INSANE!.. I meant to bring the room alive as well as keeping it sterile and futuristic enough to suite my game. But as you can see, the sun is setting and I just can't bring myself to draw the stupid shadows right.
Anyway... anyone have any opinion?
I give up! :P *rips hair out of scalp*
(http://lrg.zorpia.com/0/474/3038178.f90519.jpg)
(http://lrg.zorpia.com/0/474/3038177.c77df0.jpg)
BASS? :P
First of all, stop ripping your hair out. You'll need that for one of the puzzles later.
I see you've made some changes since I saw it last time...I can't exactly remember how it looked before, but it looked great then, and it still looks great now.
You don't need to have a realistic level of shadows. If shadows aren't your style, then maybe don't stress it? Without shadows you get a more sterile look which can be neat. It's not as if it's going to look real anyway. Also I know that this is your first background so remember that whatever level of detail goes into this one ought to go into the rest of them to.
But, ok, if you want comments on the shadows...you have real nice ones on the walls, but the floors have none. Trace the lights out and see where they should go, I'm not going to explain the spots.
Very, very VERY quick edit. Light-sources wrong and everything ::).
(http://www.shadowreality.co.uk/images/13/edited.jpg)
(Had to resize for the hosting o accpt it :P)
(http://img191.exs.cx/img191/7145/3038178f905193wy.jpg)
Nothing special, but at least I tried. :-\
quick rough edit, id suggest changing all the plants from a green to an orangey/brown colour, as their colour isnt right considering the lighting. I just had a quick paint over, tried to make it all look a bit more dynamic, as if the lightsource was actually a part of the room. Mice scene though and it should take much to have it improved.
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/edit123.gif)
Here's my version:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/shadows.png)
Your background is great, but the perspective of the floor tiles is quite off.
Khrismuc, edges of those shadows are too sharp and straight.
I could've blurred them a bit, true.
But I wanted to provide a basic lighting sketch rather than 'finish' the picture.
Too straight? I don't think so: uberstraight (http://students.washington.edu/ubes/photos/2002.SpringBBQ/the%20setting%20sun%20copy.jpg)
DanClarcke,
Your edit is really good. Of course Coffe Lady would have to apply it more carefully into the original, but I would go for this idea. The only thing I would do is darken the holes (windows?) in the right wall.
Quote from: Stefano on Sat 09/04/2005 16:27:53
DanClarcke,
Your edit is really good. Of course Coffe Lady would have to apply it more carefully into the original, but I would go for this idea. The only thing I would do is darken the holes (windows?) in the right wall.
thanks, as for a guide to shadow legth, id say khrismuc's edit is a better one to follow, as given that the sun is very low, the shadows within the room would be very long.
Thanks all for the great advice and the extra time you've put into editing the picture! I've actually started working on my second background and will come back to this one and add changes as I go (I can't stay stuck on one background forever or else I will never complete the game). But with your help I have now a better idea on constructing the shadows and highlights more properly.
On another note, I've taken an animation course a few years back and I've scanned these pages that might come to you for help when you animate your characters and portraits.
thanks!Ã, :D
(http://lrg.zorpia.com/0/475/3043184.4fc4c0.jpg)
(http://lrg.zorpia.com/0/475/3043231.37a8bf.jpg)
(http://lrg.zorpia.com/0/475/3043235.986452.jpg)
(http://lrg.zorpia.com/0/475/3043317.af9cc9.jpg)
(http://lrg.zorpia.com/0/475/3043370.9b9c35.jpg)
Cheers, i think i have the book theyre from (animators survival kit). Does anybody else see the resembelance in the walk and jump animations to the simon the sorcerer animations? Theyre almost identical!
Quote from: khrismuc on Sat 09/04/2005 16:25:56
Too straight? I don't think so: uberstraight (http://students.washington.edu/ubes/photos/2002.SpringBBQ/the%20setting%20sun%20copy.jpg)
Fancy having a forest next to a beach.
Cool, thanks for those animation scans :)
The scans are from Preston Blair's "Cartoon Animation" book.
The book was available for free on www.freetoon.com, but the website appears to be closed now. :(
I'm not entirerly pleased with any of the edits, actually, as the particular bastard I am :(
The shading in Haddas' and especially Krishmuc's versions are way too sharp and distinct. They don't suit the style, and they certainly don't fit into adventure games, which generally lack sprite/character cast shadows.
Backgrounds for adventure games should preferably be drawn without too distinct light sources, or at least very subtle and blurred shading, or they will clash with the characters (or as a final option at least stay out of walkable areas).
Also they are not as realistic as Krishmuc claims; long sharp shadows are only rendered by a direct lightsource, and since the sunset takes place at the horizon, the floor and furniture of the room can hardly be hit by the sunrays in that manner.
Dan's version has a nice classic-painting feeling to it, but the original background had a great BASS-atmosphere which was more or less ruined in Dan's paintover.
The BASS-style seldom lets one single lightsource dominate the entire picture; each part of background is more or less equally saturated/contrasted, even though some areas are shaded. This is more harmonic when serving as the background for a game.
Example:
(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/original/974906422-00.gif)
I don't claim to know a better solution, I'm just ranting :)
Quote from: Andail on Mon 11/04/2005 11:52:46
Backgrounds for adventure games should preferably be drawn without too distinct light sources, or at least very subtle and blurred shading, or they will clash with the characters (or as a final option at least stay out of walkable areas).
Seconded, but Coffee Lady has aked for it, so I gave it a try.
Now look at this:
(http://home.pages.at/choala/ags/shadows.jpg)
As I already said, I didn't blur them cause I was too lazy, but the general shape seems to quite accurate.
Of course the shadows clash with the floor, but, as I also already mentioned, the floor's perspective is waaay off.
Hm, what I partly meant was that since the sun is positioned at the horizon, seemingly below the apartment in the foreground, I don't see how its floor, or furniture, can be hit by the sunrays like that.
The new picture which you - superfluously- displayed as further evidence features - just like the previous one - a beach. The surface of a beach can be hit by the rays of a setting sun thanks to its being at a level with the sun.
Also I don't really get what you mean by
Quote
Of course the shadows clash with the floor, but, as I also already mentioned, the floor's perspective is waaay off.
Are you suggesting that because the shadows and the tiles don't align, the floor's perspective is incorrect? That the lines in the floor should point towards the lightsource?
Ah well, enough about that, the important thing is that it simply looks better, and suits adventuregames better with less distinct shadows.
Quote from: Andail on Mon 11/04/2005 20:26:51
Hm, what I partly meant was that since the sun is positioned at the horizon, seemingly below the apartment in the foreground, I don't see how its floor, or furniture, can be hit by the sunrays like that.
The new picture which you - superfluously- displayed as further evidence features - just like the previous one - a beach. The surface of a beach can be hit by the rays of a setting sun thanks to its being at a level with the sun.
It doesn't matter if you're at sea level or in an apartment. If the sun is above the horizon, it's above you and therefore shining
down. Do you ever look down on the horizon? Because of the scale of the Earth, you'd have to be pretty high up (like on a plane) before the horizon is actually below you and you can see the sun lower than you are.
I'm a bit confused about the back of the couch.Ã, It looks like the curving side panel is too short, and also I would have thought that the seating part of it would continue in front of it a bit to allow somebody to sit there.Ã, Also, the back line of the couch merges into the wall.Ã, While this doesn't look wrong, it's slightly confusing.Ã, Similarly, I think the bottom front line of the couch should go horizontally into the wall, or if you want to keep the comfortable lines maybe make it curve into the wall?Ã, Will try to paintover.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/SimB/couch.png)
Just a suggestion, very good background though.
@Snarky: Thanks, exactly what I was thinking.
Quote from: Andail on Mon 11/04/2005 20:26:51Are you suggesting that because the shadows and the tiles don't align, the floor's perspective is incorrect? That the lines in the floor should point towards the lightsource?
Hell no :), but the vp of the tiles (if they had just one) is way above the horizon, so the floor looks more like a quite steep ramp. Another reason why my shadows do look strange.
ok, I get you there, sorry for assuming ;)
Still I have problems with yours and Snarky's theory about the sunset....theoretically, since the earth is round, the sun is already "below" us when it touches the horizon. Shortly after, the sun has sunken beneath the horizon, and it will undoubtedly become "below" us. I have problems seeing how the sun will always shine from above, regardless of which height we're positioned, and then suddenly disappear?
There must be a gradual shift from above->on a level with->below.
I don't know, I'm just splitting hairs here anyway, and probably not helping Coffee Lady very much :)
Yes, since we're (usually) above sea level, the horizon is slightly below us. However, that distance is minute. Take the point of the horizon (the tangent of your line of sight with the circumference of the Earth), and imagine a point as high above that point as you are above sea level (or the level of the surrounding terrain). When the sun is below that point, it's below you and shining up at you.
However, I argue that even if you are quite far up (i.e. any tall building), that distance will appear to be only a tiny bit above the horizon when viewed from the distance of a horizon away. Probably less than the apparent radius of the sun in most cases. Which means it only shines upwards as it is actually setting, and setting quite a bit. It will always be shining up when the center of the sun is below the horizon. However, this only applies when it is setting against the actual horizon, like on the sea or completely flat terrain.
Basically, what I'm saying is that for the purposes of casting shadows, elevation can be completely ignored, and you'd cast pretty much exactly the same shadow on a beach as you do in a 100th floor apartment.
as the sun comes closer to the horizon the light becomes more reddish as it passes through more atmosphere. there is still illumination after the sun is not in direct line of sight due to the horizon due to reflection refraction and diffusion of the sun's rays. as long as there are shadows existing, this implies that the majority of still coming from a downard angle. light is still coming from a downward angle even after the sun is technically below the tangent line of the Earth at the point of interest.
That's all quite interesting to read, really, but who said the sun was that far down in the first place?
If you look at Coffee Lady's 2nd pic in the initial post, you can see that she's already drawn helplines.
I've just finished what she started, assuming that the sun is still high enough to cast those shadows.
Sorry to bother you guys, but I keep finding myself scratching my head in helplessness when I come face-to-face with pixel-art. It's extremely difficult to add the right amount of shading and the right colors when the characters are this low-res... right now they just look...
bleh...Ã, :P
(http://org01.zorpia.com/0/491/3144972.b236e1.png) (http://org01.zorpia.com/0/491/3145017.f4956a.png) x500
Yes, it is extremely dificult to draw with such "large" units. But you managed to do it (pretty well, I might add). I specially like the pose on the red head. I would only "relax" the arms (specialy the left one) of the guy.
Despite of the fact they're looking good, I think their pixels are way too big for this background. And the style doesn't seem to fit too. :-\
Those are great characters! :D
I couldn't keep my grubby hands from tinkering with them, so...
(http://www.origamihero.com/pics/edit2.gif)
I think he'd fit the backgrounds better that way. Wanna give this kind of shading a try? :)
Stefano, I see what you mean with the arm. I know the characters look a little too "flat" for my background... I was actually looking for something more like Beneath A Steel Sky graphics. I guess I will just play around with different shades of colors until I get it right. Thanks!
OMG Bernie!! That's exactly what I was looking for!!!!!
YOU ARE ASWESOME!!!
Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou!!!Ã, :-*
Bernie,
Two words: mamma mia.
Coffe Lady,
You're welcome!
Coffee Lady - I'm glad you like the edit. :D When you do shadows like those, try to bring some grey into them, it seems to work better. The darker, the grayer. Of course, some things may look weird if you do that, but it should work for skin tones and most clothes. Also, don't be afraid to break up some outlines.
Your original is a little too saturated, it would probably clash with the background. I desaturated it a little. The woman seems to be saturated just fine, though. I really like how you defined their shapes! :)
I really don't think that kind of 'arcade sprite' colouring suits these. I tried a different, softer approach, on the girl. 8 colours:
(http://www.sylpher.com/helm/red.png)
(note, the background in these forums is too bright. In proper backgrounds, the jagginess of the selout goes away.)
You were using too many colours. In pixel art, forget opacity brushes. Handpick each shade on your own. You don't need many, really.
Hmmm... issues. At actual pixel size, your sprites are too small for these backgrounds. I did some colour tests, and at about 70% size of my edit, these fit pretty well (need pixel tweaking, but oh well).
(http://www.sylpher.com/helm/toast.png)
I think Bernie's sprite punches out too much? If you plan to use that sort of shading, the backgrounds could stand about 20 less lightness, 15 or so more saturation.
(http://org01.zorpia.com/0/492/3149384.391356.jpg)
Here we go, a lot better!!Ã, I find that the sprites blend in really well, last week I saturated a bit more my bg and adjusted the contrast slightly. As you can see they fit in better. Beside the sprites is Gladia's portrait, I will animate her features when she talks -- will do the same for all characters. I gotta say that It's already taking shape beautifully!
My next step is to create my main character and have him walk around.
Thanks for all the help!!! :D
I made a couple quick versions that use lighter colors like your background
(http://members.cox.net/veradin/futuristic.gif)
(http://members.cox.net/veradin/futuristic.gif)
doh..I just noticed you made a new post..oh well ;>
That's a lovely character portrait, Coffee Lady.
Keep working on this game, I'm started to get interested!
Indeed. This looks really interesting.