I drew the hero characters from Maniac Mansion in Day of the Tentacle style both for fun and to test my skills. Bernard is the only one here who is just an original sprite from DOTT because 1. I used him as one of the references for drawing the others, and 2. I wasn't sure how much different Bernard would look in MM (It's about five years between so if he was 18 in MM, which I think he did, he's got to be 23 in DOTT) so didn't try chaning him (at least for now, maybe I'll do it later).
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/MM_characters.PNG)
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/MM_characters.PNG)
The guys wasn't so hard to draw but the girls was tricky because there's not many nice looking gals in DOTT (Laverne isn't a hot babe, Betsy never showed her face, the lady at the Human Show wasn't a teenager, Wanda never was seen and the Irish cleaner and Nurse Edna wasn't good looking) but I think I did pretty well in my opinion (most proud of Razor and Sandy but little unsure about Wendy).
I know that the faces in DOTT aren't in full profile like MM but about half profile but I'll change that later.
So what do you others think? Do you think the MM characters need improvement? C & C as well as paintovers are welcome.
Well to be quite honest, i wouldn't say they're in the DOTT style at all. They seem higher res yes, and are great characters but they lack the exaggerated style of dott. Notice how Bernard's ear is extremely large and how his posture makes a 's' shape. This is very common in cartoons, the artists tend to make shapes flow more and exaggerate certain parts. I think the characters are nice, but quite far off the dott style.
Well, for Bernard's part, that's because he's a computer and physic's geek, while the others are a football player/most popular guy in school, a photograph, a musician, a surfer dude, a creative writer, a punk rocker and a cheer leader. You see that I try to make Dave having the nose and the eys in a way that would charm a lot of girls and in Jeff I posed his legs and arms in a way that looks like he surfs a little bit too much.
It's about the personalities of the characters, not just the cartoony style.
I agree with Chicky (maybe, I didn't read it all :P) they're nice, but they need to have exxagerated features.
Like Bernard's pants or Hoagie's girth.
I also agree with Chicky.
DOTT's characters are designed to make them look like walking talking clishees, that are sent up by exaggerating certain features which are credited to them by prejudice.
This includes both, personality and looks.
That way, the DOTT Bernard looks like your arche-type of a computer nerd.
In other words, they're caricatures.
Your characters are cartoonish, yes, but you're sticking too close to their original look. You should distort them much more, like they did with Bernard. If you compare the MM one to the DOTT one, you'll see that only his main features remained intact, like his clothes (with the pulled up trousers and so on) or the opaque glasses.
Your Razor f.ex. looks pretty tame for a punk singer. Make her hair big and wild. The mouth should be big and aggressive looking with the teeth showing (just think of Billy Idol!Ã, :P). Her dress should be shredded and torn at the ends, and put some really big spikes at her collar.
Take those features, punks are widely known for to an extreme.
Or think of the stereotyped image one has in mind for footballers (big, wide shoulders), cheerleaders (blonde, cheery, fashion victim) or rock singers. If you'd stick to the 80's feeling of MM, give Syd a big hairdo as most rock singers had these days. And so on.
I agree with what everyone else said, the characters are caricatures, yours are quite generic.
Here's the non-distorted bigger version:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/MM_characters.PNG)
I think they have a lot of potential.
There's one thing I see: most of them look as if they're going to fall backwards. Their torso should be about one or two pixels forward. Either that or bend their legs back like Bernard's.
Oooh. Perhaps this could be the beginning of an ongoing contest? To DOTT-ize the MM sprites. Hmmmm. I would def be down for throwing my hat in the ring.
khrismuc: Thanks! I'll never ever again use the wide and lenght image commando again but stick to the "enlarge your pics and then Print Screen it" technique.
Thanks for the tips, those are really helpful.
Dambuilder: I don't know who Billy Idol is, because I never heard of him. I'll check out Altavista for pics and see if that's right (because maybe seem too aggressive if Razor really shows her teeth but maybe if she give a aggressive smile you something).
I wonder, do you think I should stay with the long hair style for Razor (which I personality prefer) or the mohawk?
Quote from: Mats Berglinn on Wed 17/08/2005 18:37:04
khrismuc: Thanks! I'll never ever again use the wide and lenght image commando again but stick to the "enlarge your pics and then Print Screen it" technique.
Thanks for the tips, those are really helpful. I'm not sure about letting Syd having a big hairdo since the style of the late 80's isn't the same as the 90's or 00's fashion (at least not when it comes musicians, football-players, punkers etc., not sure if that was the same with geeks).
As for geeks, I guess they always were out of time. ;D
For Syd I'd suggest taking a look at those singers and bands that are hot these days. Maybe you'll get some inspiration from them.
Currently I can only think of this scrubby, uncombed look of The Libertines, or, on the other hand, the "60's Beatles style" of Franz Ferdinand or The Hives.
Quote from: Mats Berglinn on Wed 17/08/2005 18:37:04
Dambuilder: I don't know who Billy Idol is, because I never heard of him. I'll check out Altavista for pics and see if that's right (because maybe seem too aggressive if Razor really shows her teeth but maybe if she give a aggressive smile you something).
I wonder, do you think I should stay with the long hair style for Razor (which I personality prefer) or the mohawk?
Caricature-wise a mohawk certainly has a lot of potential. ;)
But I prefer long hair too. I'm thinking of something like, say, that thing Tina Turner had on her head in the 80's.
Kind of like she played with a fork and an outlet.
Quote from: Mats Berglinn on Wed 17/08/2005 18:37:04
khrismuc: Thanks! I'll never ever again use the wide and lenght image commando again but stick to the "enlarge your pics and then Print Screen it" technique.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. I just right clicked your small pic and chose "Properties". Then I copied the link and multiplied the displayed width and height by 2.
[img width=588 height=154]...[/img]
Here are new versions.
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/MM_characters_2.PNG)
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/MM_characters_(2)_Bigger.PNG)
I tried to make exaggerations with your suggestions (and also some of my ideas). It was tricky for me exaggerate Wendy but I decided to make her arms slimmer, her hair bigger and shrink down her breasts (and also enlarged her ear-jewelry).
Also I made two version of Razor's aggressive smile but I didn't knew which one was best so I included both.
QuoteI'm not quite sure what you mean by that
In Paint, I just using the magnifyer to enlarge the pictures, then I tap the Prt Scr key, paste the pic and edit it so it looks right. Have I made myself clear?
How is it now? Better? Closer to DOTT style? What else can exaggerate or make better?
I do think this last batch is a marked improvement. Making them even more still as caricatures would help, as would changing their postures to better emphasize personality.
I think these characters are quite good, though there's still room for plenty of improvements.
At this point, I think the biggest problem is that most of your characters are leaning waaay back. Especially number three (the black kid), number six (the girl with the dark hair) and number seven (Razor) look like they're about to fall over, but really all of them could be tilted forward a good deal.
Though it may not exactly be the greatest pose (ugh -- I'm finding that she's looking like a punked out Jane Jeston), and she is a maybe a bit taller than some of your sprites, here's a version I did of mohawk Razor, just to give an idea of dressing her up a touch and posing her non-genericly.
Besides that, I know she's by no means perfect or anything.
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/razor2.png) (http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/razor4.png)
And Syd, who I tried to make look sort of cooler and more "new wave" or something.
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/sid.png)
I tried to edit a few of them so they look at least somewhat balanced. Dunno if it worked very well.
(http://home.comcast.net/~snarkibartfast/images/MM_characters_2.png)
(http://home.comcast.net/~snarkibartfast/images/MM_characters_2.png)
Ozwalled: Woah, those are cool! Razor really looks cool (even if I like long hair better mohawk) but Syd looks about half-wrong because he wears a jacket which he doesn't. It's a yellow tie he wears, not a yellow shirt and black jacket.
Snarky: Thanks for the edit. I see that you don't remember the names to well so I'll tell the names in order from left to right: Bernard, Dave, Micheal, Syd, Jeff, Wendy, Razor and Sandy (plus Razor again).
Quote from: Mats Berglinn on Thu 18/08/2005 06:56:17
Ozwalled: Woah, those are cool! Razor really looks cool (even if I like long hair better mohawk) but Syd looks about half-wrong because he wears a jacket which he doesn't. It's a yellow tie he wears, not a yellow shirt and black jacket.
Actually, I think he wasn't all that wrong. When examining the boxart (http://members.fortunecity.com/harang/boxes.html) Syd is actually wearing a black jacket. Although indeed not in combination with a of a yellow, but with a black shirt and a (thin) yellow tie.
Personally, I also think that the mohawk is quite a correct exagaration of the intended look (based upon the boxart)...on the other hand, I agree with you I like long hair over a mohawk any day...question is, would Razor care about my opinion?Ã, ;)
Over a year ago, I took a shot at updating Jeff Woodie.
(http://www.lucasstyle.com/images/sbjeffwoodie.PNG)
His outline is darker here than what I created, but I'm just showing it for fun. When I do more, I would add to his neck, add more hair strands, and somehow I almost got a stoner look out of him without trying, so maybe I would tone that down.
Actually, of the sprites Mats did, I thought thatthe Jeff one was one of the more successful ones (save for his far foot), but yours isn't too bad either, Scummbuddy.
I majoryly goofed on the jacket/ tie thing though -- wasn't thinking, I guess (I'd misinterpreteded your tie, Mats, and forgot about how the original character was done). My, I can be a bonehead sometimes.
Quote from: Ozwalled on Thu 18/08/2005 10:01:09
Actually, of the sprites Mats did, I thought thatthe Jeff one was one of the more successful ones (save for his far foot), but yours isn't too bad either, Scummbuddy.
I majoryly goofed on the jacket/ tie thing though -- wasn't thinking, I guess (I'd misinterpreteded your tie, Mats, and forgot about how the original character was done). My, I can be a bonehead sometimes.
Thanks for thinking that about Jeff, I appriciate it. The reason for that his left legs stands out a bit is that since he is a surfer I thought that he might surf a lot on his free time (when not in college and not worked at the pizza place), like the surfer stance would be stay in the way when he stands. That is also the reason for I made his legs slimmer but kept his feet quite big to keep balance while surfing, and gave him a sun-tan with some un-tanned spots under his eyes and right under his hair but that's hard to see.
Yeah, I see but I used the Syd sprite and not the box cover art when drew him so I had no idea. Maybe Ron Gilbert and the guys either forgot to add the jacket or they scraped the jacket but forgot to change the box art or something like that.
Scumbuddy: That wasn't so bad sprite of Jeff.
Do you guys have any suggestions or ideas of improving the other characters?
If you pay close attention to the sprites in DOTT, each one is based around simple shapes. Some of your sprites seem a little hesitant in their outlines and stiff in posture. (I can do a paintover if you want). Also, in DOTT, each character either has stick thin arms like Bernard, or heavy-set arms like Hoagie.
Wendy's breasts look a bit odd. Comparing your last edit to the first picture you posted I think you've greatly improved them. Especially Jeff and Razor!
Big Bro: Well, you could make a paintover so I see a bit more exactly what you mean. I have looked at the DOTT characters and compaired them with the MM characters (my attempts of making them DOTT-esque) so I understand what you're talking about but it would be good if I had some referrence for how to improve the characters even more.
About the arms: I've looked at the DOTT characters and noticed that they have varying thickness of arms depedning on their personality and character, like Bernard is weak because he don't work out much, Hoagie is fat, Weird Ed had worked out since MM (Bernard says so when you look at him) and so on, so not every non-fat character have that slim arms.
Def: I'll try fiddle with Wendy some more and then show whe looks better (I have made some changes but I'm going to fiddle around some more before I show).
Here's a modified version of dave with less stiff pose:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Dave_2.PNG)
I used Thomas Jefferson as referrence since he is broadshouldered. Also I looked Bernard, Hoagie and Laverne's feet and saw that the left foot is at least two, three pixels higher than the bottom of their right foot and that the right foot also points dialognially to the right instead of front.
I'll make some more modifications on the other characters before I show them.
It's not as much about individual pixels as it is about the holistic feel of the sprite. Here's my version of the football guy. Note the dynamic pose and the linear expression of the form.
Keep in mind that Hollywood productions during the 80s teach us everything we need to know about the American teenager (Breakfast Club, Ferris Bueller's Day Out, etc.).
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/mmsprites.gif)
Oh, I love it!
When I get some free time, I'm going to redo my sprite of Jeff, and have always wanted to redo the cast. I very well may use Big Brothers as a good point of reference.
I did a version of razor that might help you, and I left bernard and your version of razor as a reference:
(http://members.cox.net/veradin/razor.gif)
(http://members.cox.net/veradin/razor.gif)
Razor's becoming juuust a tad... no, scratch that. Waaaay to creepy and violent. I never thought of her like that at all...
People that wear spiky dog collars tend to be creepy.
(http://members.cox.net/veradin/razorold.gif)
I meat a girl that didn't, actually. Beats me why she wore that thing.
Does Razor have to be like that, though? I don't see Dave asking a gal like that for help in ANY regard, especialyl a Dave whose friends include Jeff and Bernard and Wendy. It might be a mistake to make Razor too much like a punk person. Maybe a punk person wannabe, or something? Maybe more cool and skank or whatever than actually violent and agressive? More look less attitude?
EDIT - See, in the original - as you posted in an edit and which I only saw after posting my reply := - she doesn't look at all that agressive. More like the chewing-gum-constantly type than the razor-wielding type.
What's wrong with attitude? Laverne is a total nutjob in DOTT, afterall. Maybe Razor is a psychotic ex-girlfriend who still stalks Dave and secretly despises Sandy!
Ayuh, maybe. Well, when you put it like that I only have one reply left, that is not a C&C - it's that, simply put, I don't like this agressive version of Razor, it seems to go against the original Razor. But this is in the subjective, non-argumentative field now, so it would hardly be worth it to keep at it.
My point is as BB mentioned before that the MM characters were all designed as stereotypes of 1980's teens (although they were also inspired by people Ron Gilbert and Winnick really knew- Razor, for example, was based on Winnick's ex-girlfriend afaik). These stereotypes were supposed to be intentionally over the top in their respective categories, so Razor would fit into the uber-punk chick of the 80s, and I don't think there's anything wrong with making her a bit of a heavy to offset the other female characters. Anyway, this is Matts Berglins' thread and not mine so I'm done here ;>.
Big bro: Well, the sprite of Dave looks quite good but in oppinion it's not DOTT sytle, rather Apprentice style. Plus not every character in DOTT have dot-eyes. Also it's way too adult and it doesn't go along with Dave's peronailty. Yes, he may be a footballplayer and a popular guy in college but he's a nice, caring leader-type. Here Dave looks a bit dumb, strong, depressed dude. Also, all the american shows that you mention, I haven't seen any of it so it's hard to know about american teenagers from the 80's if you haven't seen any of these shows (not everthing in America reaches swedish televsion you know. Of course a lot gets here but not everything).
By the way, the sprite was nice and it gives me inspiration of improvement.
ProgZmax: Yes, I totally agree with Rui about Razor. It's way too agressive and it doesn't fit DOTT at all, unless you're trying to do a "ProgZmax-style" pardoy version of MM and DOTT. If Razor ever looked like that it would scare the heck of the Tentacles, the Edisons and that Meteor. Besides I don't think Dave would be friend to anyone that is that aggressive. I meant no offense to you and your style, it's just that it doesn't fit with what Tim Schafer and co have in mind. If you look at all the characters in DOTT, none of them are THAT frightening.
Back to big brother's sprite, I personally find it flawless (as usual).
I don't know Mats, maybe this is a bit more along the lines you're aiming for?
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/spr.jpg)
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/spr.jpg)
I've only touched up the face a little. He no longer has dot eyes, he certainly looks a bit dumber, dreamy and good-natured.
In fact, if you play a little bit with his mouth and his eyebrows, you can achieve a wide variety of expressions (I guess that's the advantage of good sprites).
He looks slightly better but I think he is not the Dave we all know. He's not exactly a guy that all gals go gaga for, which is what I believe Dave is. Anyway here's an update of all the MM characters, together with Bernard, Hoagie and Laverne to compair with them (I used all the character to check out the differnet lenghs compaired with each other (it's hard to see it here but if you draw a line at the lowest pixel of their feet they all match it.
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Updated_MM_characters.PNG)
I used the legs and shoes of Big Bro's version and the ear on Dave. I also changed the face slightly. For Wendy I changed her bust slightly and changed her shoes. For Syd, I made his sunglasses a line bigger so he have the really big glasses. For Razor I used Ozwalled's version of her to change the eyes, the mouth and the spikes around her neck. I also looked at ProgZmax's version for changing the legs. For Sandy, I took the new Razor legs and Wendy's shoes. I also changed her face a bit and add some hair at the left cheek. For Micheal, I wasn't sure what to change so I took a wild guess and changed his smile, his eyes and gave some lines in the tie (it's hard to see but it's there).
Any more improvements and suggestions?
To elaborate on what bb is talking about, or so I think, the problem with the stiffness and lack of body language is probably due to a focus on outlines rather than form/volume.
If you'd make simple manikins of these characters, they would look something like this:
(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/mm.gif)
The left one looks pretty much like a tin soldier and doesn't really express anything and the shape is very simple as well as pretty boring.
The center one, even just by looking at the form, suggests a confident, relaxed and strong character, and the right a nerdish/loony char.
-
Without a good understanding of form/volume, creating the center and right character from that angle would be fairly impossible, unless traced. Going from drawing outlines to creating forms with outlines is a rather big step, but you'd want to take it as soon as possible since it has an enormous impact on the results.
Using manikins, like those above, is usually the first step in getting an understanding. Try reducing objects to primitives (such as balls, cubes, cones etc), then connect them with lines. When doing this, try imagining that you're sculpting 3d dimensional objects, not drawing on a flat surface.
Which primitives, how they're placed relatively to eachother and in what manner they're squashed (such as the squashed ball for bernards head) will determine the characteristics and is usually the first step, long before any details such as clothing, facial features etc.
For instance, in the center figure you'll notice that the thorax "ball" (it's quite deformed) is larger than the pelvis ball. If you compare this to the right character, you'll notice the opposite relationship and this gives the impression that the centre guy is strong, whereas the right would be considered weak unless proven otherwise.
If we were to compare the position, rather than size of the pelvis and thorax balls again, which usually have the greatest impact, you'll notice that the pelvis of the right char is heavily pushed forward, whereas the centre guy's is position roughly beneath. This adds to the impression of a weak, geeklike character to the right, and the slight forward push of the centre guy adds a relaxed air.
These things and more are discussed in this book by Andrew Loomis which I recommend:
http://www.saveloomis.org/fun/1.htm (http://www.saveloomis.org/fun/1.htm)
I think pixelart can be a severe hinder, unless compensated with hi-res drawing, in developing a sense for form/volume and I suggest doing hi-res sketches of the characters prior to beginning with the pixel pushing (which is most likely what the LEC artists did).
Btw, I've never understood why showing the whites of the eyes in this resolution is so popular around here. I can't really recall any fairly normal human characters from lucasarts/sierra that featured them, but my memory is admittedly lousy. As for bb's character, I think it could've unaltered been included in DOTT without anyone taking notice.
Loominous, both DOTT and Sam & Max have character both "dot-eyes" and "normal" eyes. Just look at the row of characters I've got: Laverne has normal eyes. Hoagie does also have normal eyes but mostly they're hidden behind all that hair.
For ones who haven't seen the end of DOTT, do not read this:
Spoiler
When Bernard gets himself out of Hoagie's T-shirt and tries to get loose he puts one foot on Hoagie's head. There you can see one of Hoagie's eyes and it's a normal one.
Also there are several other DOTT characters that don't have dot-eyes (or glasses, sun-glasses or sucker-eyes): Dwayne, George Washington, John Hancock, Harold, The lady at the Human Show, The fat guy at the Human Show, Ned and Jed Edison, Nurse Edna and Zedna.
Seriously, what's wrong with having characters normal eyes in 320 x 200? Just because MI1 and MI2 didn't have characters with normal eyes (apart for exaggerated reactions and close-ups) it doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it. It's a matter of taste if you want dot-eyes or not. Myself, I think most of the time that normal eyes are looking better than dot-eyes. Big Bro seems to be opposite but that's his taste, not mine. But the normal eyes does matter when it comes to personality. Like if you look at Bernard he is a nice character and a geek so dot-eyes fits him better, and if you look at Laverne, she's a bit crazy, enthusiastic med-student, so the eyes gives you the feeling that Laverne's not really of normal character. The reason for why dot-eyes doesn't fit for Dave is that he is a football player (How many times do I have to say this?), a teenager, a popular guy at school, a leadertype, brave, nice, understanding and stout-hearted. Do you understand what I'm talking about?
I do appreciate the sketch, though. I'll try to fix that even it's tricky figure out which lines and positions fits for each character (especially in Paint).
Here's a new version of Dave, using the sketch as inspiration:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Dave_4.PNG)
Don't you think that Dave have loosen up now with the new arms, neck and torso pose?
Quote from: Mats Berglinn on Sat 20/08/2005 17:06:36
both DOTT and Sam & Max have character both "dot-eyes" and "normal" eyes. J
I didn't say there weren't any "normal eyes", as you put it, but "I can't really recall any fairly normal human characters from lucasarts/sierra that featured them".
If you look at the lead characters in LEC and sierra 320x200 res games, they're pretty much always done with dot eyes, and probably since these make most sense. If you look at a scaled down photo of a person to the size of game sprites you won't be able to see the whites because a) the whites are tiny, b) they aren't very bright, and certainly not white.
More extreme characters, which needs to express a certain state do feature whites.
QuoteThe reason for why dot-eyes doesn't fit for Dave is that he is a football player (How many times do I have to say this?), a teenager, a popular guy at school, a leadertype, brave, nice, understanding and stout-hearted. Do you understand what I'm talking about?
Frankly the only point I see in this is that he's supposed to be nice and understanding which might warrent larger eyes. If you look at very leaderlike, strong character like Ben in full throttle, you'll notice that you can't hardly see the eyes. Our culture's ideal when it comes to male eyes, is fairly heavy eyebrows and squinting-like almond shaped eyes. Translated into 320 res this eliminates whites imo.
QuoteSeriously, what's wrong with having characters normal eyes in 320 x 200? Just because MI1 and MI2 didn't have characters with normal eyes (apart for exaggerated reactions and close-ups) it doesn't mean that you shouldn't do
First off, there are plenty more games with dot eyes, about every one I can think of - FOA, Simon the Sorcerer series, Full throttle, Police quest series, Larry 320 game series etc. I'd say "normal eyes" is an exception.
But none of this really matters since, like you say, it's a matter of taste. I was merely expressing my lack of understanding why whites are so popular, since most popular games don't feature them and getting them right is close to impossible (I think they really spoil 9 out of 10 sprites I see in the CL).
Yeah, loominus I understand your point. The reason for Full Throttle to not having "normal eyes" is just the style, not the style because FT had bigger resolution (or that's what I think it was I don't know). You do see them when characters do certain expressions you do see them (then again that's what happens with Bernard's eyes too but still). When I meant by a leader character I didn't meant like Ben because he is a mean, though, partly ruthless biker while Dave is mucher nicer person. Your claim of Ben as the trademark for a leadercharacter, is generalising. Not all leaders are tough and ruthless. FT have much more tougher and serious nature oppose to Maniac Mansion and Day of the Tentacle which is more comical and comedic.
Yes, it's true that are many games with "dot eyes" but FOA, SImon the Sorcerer, Police Quest and so on are earlier games and therefore resolution much more lower. Full Throttle on the other hand is a later game with higher resolution. You can't compair low-res with med/hi res by the eyes. It's again for the style.
The reason for why people prefer normal eyes over dot eyes is very simpe: They think that it looks a lot nicer and adds more character (in most of the case).
But let's drop this eyes argue and focus on the sprites, ok?
Mats: Your latest edit still doesn't show this guy's character. When I look at him, I don't see a jock. I see an average teenager with a mullet of some sort. He doesn't look buff, he doesn't really look strong at all. I don't associate any type of person with what I see. BB's edit manages to convey a high school jock without using extreme physical fitness. You should really worry about refining his character. I really dig Ian's edit, you should follow it more closely, or at least observe more of what he and loominous are saying.
I'm not sure if you're right about Dave. I have a feeling that Big Bro's version is a bit too much. Compaired with original Dave his a little way too different. Compaired DOTT Bernard with MM Bernard, the have different shape, differnt pose and added stuff but they're still very similiar.
Anyway, I redesigned Big Bro's version to make him a little more similiar to MM Dave (the colors, the nose, the eyes and the clothes) but kept the elements in the original. The reason to do that is that (like I said dozens of times before) he is not only a football player but is also a popular guy who charms every teenager in school (Tiki, they were NOT high school students but college students) and that what's I saw in the original Dave. The way Big Bro used his eyes and nose in a way that didn't make him seem like a "love target".
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Redesign_Big_Bro's_Dave.PNG)
Please, can someone say that this one is good because I'm sick of hearing complaitments all the time (I know it's the Critic's lounge but it can't be THAT bad?).
Maybe usefull to some of us (that'll be me) to compare the two styles...simply as a reference.
Characters from Maniac Mansion
http://members.fortunecity.com/harang/characters.html
Characters from Day of the Tentacle
http://isharlasoluce.chez.tiscali.fr/Day_of_The_Tentacle/Dott_mega_dossier3.php3
----------------------------------------
As for the goofyness of BB's sprite; I think if the chin were slightly rounder (without an overhanging lower lip/chin), the character would be less - well - dumb. Also a thing I personally dislike about BB's Dave is his nose. It's more of less the same nose as Ozwalled used for his Syd-edit...and it reminds me a little too much of mr. Larry Laffer. That would also explain the goofy look, for while it's a very good noise to have when you're wearing a leisure suit, pretending to be cool, while chasing women way out of your leage...I think Dave's nose should be less exaggerated (ie. slightly smaller, like the one in Mats' Dave).
-------
Remarks about your latest edit:
1. I too am not certain about the eyes (maybe it's the eyebrows; could you remove the pixels closest to the nose. I think that would help.)
2. I still think the chin/lower lip should not be overhanging
3. The clothing little (but not too much) more detail...maybe some folds at the armbends; that kind of stuff.
4. I do like your nose much better than BB's 'love target'.
5. I prefer your jacket ofer BB's. I thought in the original it was made from denim (like his jeans) rather than being his 'college labeled football jacket'.
6. I think his smile is too big. Someone just kidnapped his girlfriend...if that made him this happy he really shouldn't be trying to get her back ;)
7. Overall I think it looks quite nice...I could be looking at him for most of a game; and that is - being based on two gamestyles - also very important.
After reading my first three comments I decided to change about sixteen (or so) pixels:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Redesign_Big_Bro's_Dave2.PNG)
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I think the reason why you seem frustrated is because you don't really grasp how big a difference there is between your sprites and the DOTT/bb's sprite.
We're all more or less blind to our own shortcomings in these matters and and it takes the eye of an artist beyond our skill to see just how flawed our work is. When you look at BB's sprite you may not see much difference between it and your own but when I see it, they're miles apart.
And I'm not talking about the character in question which may not fit your idea at all, it's a matter of understanding form/volume and posture which displays itself clearly in the sprites. When I look at BB's character I see a three dimensional character with a personality. When I look at yours I see , and I hope you don't get too affronted by this, an advanced, generic stick figure.
This isn't a matter of talent, BB has simply gained more skill by extensive practise and you'll be able to reach that level the same way. I think you need to acknowledge this and focus on the basics, utilizing the manikin method I showed some post ago. This is the same technique professional animators use so it's not a beginner's method, and will gradually make you understand form/volume, posture and with this how to shade convincingly.
I think it would be best if you were to post a couple of hi-res manikin sketches of the characters instead of these pixel versions. Good sprites, as backgrounds, usually start with solid sketches, and if they work in as sketches they'll should turn out well in pixels.
About the face of Dave, here's a more handsome version. I urge you to work out your own version from scratch:
(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/jockey.gif)
Edit: I'd also urge you not to use BB's sprite with a modified face.
It's very nice. Awesome improvement my friend. This qould be a quite acceptable sprite you have there. Good work. This is just nit-picking, don't take it too seriously, but there's some edges that could maybe be made a little smoother and also the crotch looks a bit big... by which i mean the shading is quite thick and it looks weird even though that might be how it would look. Conratulations and nice work on those hands, buddy.
If you look closely at the sprite of bernard, the approach BB took to the linework is very similar already (as was mine, very loose stance). I don't see any need for alteration. Matts, my advice is either to listen to what Loominous has said, stop working on updated MM characters, or stop using the critics lounge for them. It seems clear to me that you are determined to have them look the way 'you' think the DOTT style appears, which just isn't the same as it appears to the rest of us. Here are some specific tips that you should follow when emulating the style:
1. Curved stance. Look at how every single character in DOTT stands, not a one of them has a good posture. Either they lean too far one way or are bent over. The key here is exaggeration.
2. The arms tend to be smaller in width than the hands, and the arms are typically slightly longer than normal.
3. Heads are disproportionately large to exaggerate facial expressions.
4. Ears tend to be large (this is a carry over from the original MM if you look at the sprites).
5. The characters have to evoke a personality when looked at. As in the case of the razor sprite I did, you saw fear. When you look at Laverne you think crazy, with Hoagie you think fat dumb guy. They need to be designed over the top so these stereotypes are immediate.
6. Lighten up and remember you posted this work to the critics lounge for help. If you didn't want help you wouldn't be posting here.
Hope this helps.
In my opinion DOTT seem to always bring out the ugliness in people. Big ugly noses, Huge ears, fat and other stuff.
Quote from: loominous on Sat 20/08/2005 21:56:54
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I think the reason why you seem frustrated is because you don't really grasp how big a difference there is between your sprites and the DOTT/bb's sprite.
We're all more or less blind to our own shortcomings in these matters and and it takes the eye of an artist beyond our skill to see just how flawed our work is. When you look at BB's sprite you may not see much difference between it and your own but when I see it, they're miles apart.
About the face of Dave, here's a more handsome version. I urge you to work out your own version from scratch:
(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/jockey.gif)
Edit: I'd also urge you not to use BB's sprite with a modified face.
Loominous, I think you give excellent advice, and it's certainly something I'll keep in mind for myself. However, I also think that Mats is right that BigBrother's sprite is not in the DOTT style (excellent as it is in other respects). If I were to hazard a guess, I might predict that he'll like your edit a lot more than BB's original sprite. Certainly in my eyes it comes closer to capturing the original Dave, even if it may not be quite in DOTT style.
Quote from: Floskfinger on Sat 20/08/2005 23:48:28
In my opinion DOTT seem to always bring out the ugliness in people. Big ugly noses, Huge ears, fat and other stuff.
Yeah, you definitely have a point. It's probably related to the reason why they chose to avoid the prettier characters from MM, and only reuse the freaks and geeks. Which raises the issue: does a MM remake with DOTT-style graphics even make sense?
Quote from: Snarky on Sun 21/08/2005 00:07:27
.... However, I also think that Mats is right that BigBrother's sprite is not in the DOTT style (excellent as it is in other respects). If I were to hazard a guess, I might predict that he'll like your edit a lot more than BB's original sprite. Certainly in my eyes it comes closer to capturing the original Dave, even if it may not be quite in DOTT style.
I have to agree with Snarky here. BB's Dave is very nice, and Loominous' edit of the face gives Dave great character...but neither of them are in DOTT style. On the other hand, I never understood why everyone always wants to draw in DOTT or MI3 style. I guess this is one of those moments when that old saying applies: Amateurs imitate, professionals steal. (maybe that's why I don't do real paintovers...)
So just to give you some ideas for MM-Cartoonstyle (rather than DOTT-style) character (re)design some quick and dirty lines:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/MMGang.JPG)
Ps. no, I don't think Syd - or anyone else for that matter - should smoke...but when drawing his stance, it kinda happened
Pps. By all means, do draw your own. Drawing such lines (on paper) should not take more than a few minutes per character. But it's in these few minutes when you start to learn everything there is to know about him or her.
Just to make you feel better, I was SO close to having Syd smoking too. I guess it actually is cool. x_X
QuoteOn the other hand, I never understood why everyone always wants to draw in DOTT or MI3 style.
I believe that most people like those styles better than the very old school people graphics.
Quote6. Lighten up and remember you posted this work to the critics lounge for help. If you didn't want help you wouldn't be posting here.
Sure I need you guys help. It's just that I didn't thought that it would take this long time to get anywhere.
Misj': Thanks for the advice and the sketch. I'll try to do it that way and see if it's getting closer to the DOTT style. By the way, why do you draw Chuck the Plant? He/it is not much of a character and is more part of the background. Also, Wendy's last name is Wells, if you didn't knew (or forgotten).
Floskfinger: Maybe not for all characters. Look at Harold, he is a beautiful guy with a slight arront look.
Quote from: Mats Berglinn on Sun 21/08/2005 05:35:56
I believe that most people like those styles better than the very old school people graphics.
Looks matter - I will be the first to agree - and those cartoony styles look much better than the
blocks. But the trick is to develop your own style (which may have it's roots in DOTT, MI3, or Garfield for that matter). Because if you don't, then you and your creativity are limited by boundaries. I'll try to explain (although I think you already understand) with a stupid example:
Image the guys working on DOTT decided never to add any paintings to the wall...if you then were to draw a DOTT background with a cute picture of Max hanging on the wall, you'd be (stricktly speaking) breaking the boundaries of the style. Even if such an addition were perfect, and would make the difference between boring and great. The boundaries are created by what's already in there...not by what might be in there (and people will complain that it is not
really DOTT).
As a result, it is - still stricktly speaking - impossible to add Dave, Syd or the green meteor police thingy guy without breaking (or at least bending) the boundaries of the style created by someone else for DOTT. There is no true reference of what they should look like. All we know is that they are cartoony, and - in a weird way - more simple (in shape) than their MM counterparts (just look at the MM- and DOTT-tentacles). But we all have our own interpretation of what the boundaries really are, and thus, of what the final image should look like (to us).
Quote from: Mats Berglinn on Sun 21/08/2005 05:35:56By the way, why do you draw Chuck the Plant? He/it is not much of a character and is more part of the background.
Blame it on the dayjob, I'm a biologist. :D - No, actually, that has nothing to do with it (I don't work with plants). I just happened to like sketching Chuck.
I understand what you mean. Many of the characters doesn't look the same but Fred, Zed and Red Edison, Edna and Zedna, Ed and Ved, All the Tentacles and also Dwayne and John Hancock are very similiar to each other. Of course the Edisons are suppoused to be similiar becuase it's a family thing but maybe not the others.
I'm not sure if I would agree with you can't break the style... I mean, just because some character didn't appear in DOTT, doesn't mean that if you're doing, say, a DOTT-style version of MM or a DOTT sequel and put in characters in the "DOTT style" and it's out of place. It's couldn't work if you have to be that picky. You shouldn't back off just because it's really hard to do it. At least I won't give up that easily.
Also I noticed this pic of the Meteor Police and the Meteor on Scummbuddy's Maniac Zomibies site:
(http://www.lucasstyle.com/maniaczombies/images/_art_jon-jon_mccullough_coppers_439x402.jpg)
I think that this is very, very, very close to DOTT style and therefore should be count as DOTT style. Don't you guys agree?
Is 'DOTT style' suddenly a byword for cartoony?
Awesome work by the way Misj'.
Quote from: Mats Berglinn on Sun 21/08/2005 12:21:15
I think that this is very, very, very close to DOTT style and therefore should be count as DOTT style. Don't you guys agree?
Absolutely not! The picture depicts elements from the Maniac Mansion series, but in a different style than any of the two games. A nice style, indeed, but nothing like Day of the tentacle.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with doing the Maniac Mansion characters in Mats Berglinn's style. But if you ask for critizism about it as DOTT style, and you ask for help in the Critics lounge, you really shouldn't just oppose all critics, except minor details that you nitpick about (for example eyes), and refuse to rework it. I've seen lots of nice helpful comments in this thread, heck people even helped you by showing ideas about how to sketch the characters, but all you do is say: 'No, I don't think so. My style is very close to DOTT style as it is. I'll change this ear/nose/eye/(other minor detail of your choice).' I find this almost rude to the people offering their help.
I say: Go for your style, and accept it to be yours, or start reworking and show some spirit of effort!
Sorry if you feel as if I flame you, it's not meant as that. But I think you should reconsider your goal. Is it really DOTT style, or the just as acceptable Mats Berglinn style you are going for?
Cheers!
Edit: I was referring to the characters you had presented earlier, not the picture from Scumbuddy's site. And as I said, I think you style is cool. If you want to develop a more DOTTish style, go ahead! It will take time though! Sorry if you found me harsh!
Ok, ok, stop nagging, Mätzyboy! I will start from scratch! I'm sorry for what I've done! I mean it. I'm just trying to make something that is in that style but it's much harder than I thought would be. I said I appreciate the sketches and advices.
Besides, that picture ISN'T mine. I showed it as an example of what I thought was that style. Man, how wrong I was.
My, you are prickly, aren't you? Shouting at people to "stop nagging" isn't likely to encourage people to help you.
See, I think part of the problem is that you simply don't have enough skill yet to mimic the DOTT style. I don't mean this as an insult. I think your sprites are pretty good for an amateur game, and you've shown tremendous improvement from the first version to the later ones. (And when you compare them to the characters in your signature, it's obvious that you've come a very long way.) However, you are still not close to being as good as the artists who worked on DOTT. No one would expect you to be, those people were some of the most talented, experienced professionals in the business.
You don't have to be fully equal to the original to resemble the same style. Cirque de Zale has Monkey Island-style graphics even if they're not quite as good. But Kinoko is working on a level where she can approach the look of the original. You, at the moment, are not.
All this is to say that if you really want to create characters in DOTT style, it's not going to be easy. This thread is just the beginning, there is much more hard work ahead of you. You'll get there in the end, but you need a lot more patience and tolerance for frustration than you've shown so far.
Alternatively, you can accept that making it in DOTT style is just too difficult, and settle for making it in your own style. Then you can focus on improving that style. Whichever option you choose, you should listen to the great advice you've been getting from loominous, ProgZmax, Big Brother, Misj' and others, and try the exercises they've suggested. It will improve your work either way.
I admire your enthusiasm and your willingness to keep working on it. Persevere, and you will be a great artist.
Yeah, I understand, Snarky. I'm very sorry I said "stop nagging", I was just frustrated and a little bit bitter but I'm okay now.
I wasn't actually going to have the DOTT style for my current game Caribbean Mysteries. Like I said before it's more to test my skills but maybe, just maybe it could be useful for future projects. Thanks for the belief that I may improve in the future and I'm going to work hard in order to do it. Like I said earlier I won't give up on it but I'll take it a bit easy for now, so I can focus on my current project.
QuotePlease, can someone say that this one is good because I'm sick of hearing complaitments all the time (I know it's the Critic's lounge but it can't be THAT bad?).
Most of the constructive stuff has been covered by loominus' excellent posts. Without a VERY VERY ADVANCED understanding of all the underlying aspects of cartoon drawing, you have no chance to emulate the DOTT style (sic). It will not come through trial and error, at least, not in due time, and never assuming an essential understanding of this type of art. At best just by looking at DOTT graphics the best to expect is marginal apings. I urge you to buy the Loomis book or in fact, any other beginner cartoon-type art book you can find, and forget the shortcuts because they do not exist. Most of the people that just decoded various aspects of art like contrapost, curve against line, curve against inverted curve etc etc etc just by LOOKING at art and not actively STUDYING it, are very very talented. You are not talented in art. And while your art might not be THAT bad, comparing it to DOTT would call for protest, naturally. I suggest you either go 'back to school' (this is not that school) so to speak in the arts, or aim for something significantly lower than DOTT. It's not every amateur adventure game that has to mimic, or ape, commercial graphics of old.
And a final note: once again, you fail to be courteous to people trying to help you here. Maybe you should reconsider your attitude.
I've allways wanted to see how all the MM characters would look in DOTTA way. So when I saw this topic I've red it carefully and I think there is one thing that people should know - if you wanna draw really great, learn to draw first.Ã, This doesnt happen fast and it aint easy but some people are addicted to it (like me!). And u'll never stop learning, couse u can allways make your work better. Allways listen to the critics couse thats the way to evolve. Thats my advise for anyone who wants to draw.
So anyway, here is my version of Dave. I just changed most of the body couse he looked too buff in the previous ones. But the face I couldnt touch. It is just too good for me to mess with. I know he doesnt look too cartoony but after all he is the main character. The good guy, the hero, the teen. U can see all this in it I think. Thats why I like him sooo much looking like this:
(http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/2352/daveedit7sp.gif) (http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/2481/aliencop3kv.gif)
And as you see I've made a version of the alien cop, couse I had some time to waste. :)
This has been a really interesting thread to follow. To add my two cents, I always considered Dave the only "normal" guy in the group - although he is popular and does play football, he's not a sterotype like the others. Just look at the box cover. He's more of a Ferris Bueller or Marty McFly than he's like Emilio Estevez' jock character from Breakfast Club.
Also he shouldn't be too buff - after all he needs to use the excercise equipment to be able to open the garage door.
Then again, Dave is a college football player. The qb at that level would be buff. Even a kicker has the similar mandatory weight training programs. But yeah, the "working out to open the garage door" puzzle is definitely a "filler" one (ridiculous and unecessary).
I think it's a pity this thread was dredged up again. I get the impression everyone ignored the experts' advice (like Helm and Loominous). Sure other people's advice may only require changing a few pixels, but one needs to approach the project from a different angle. Sometimes it's not easy to assume an open mindset.
Misj' had an excellent point; it's difficult (and often pointless) to imitate a style outside the boundaries of that game's exigence. The DOTT style was made specifically for DOTT, not MM, or any other game. Rather than force fitting a style, one must evaluate their own project, and decide on something that best suits its needs or goals.
The only reason I was sorry to see this thread brought back up was because I had already posted it on my Maniac Zombies site. Now I have to add the last couple posts that count.
On the other hand, I would love for this thread to continue, especially with the extra image added. I would love to see all the characters done in a very respectable manner, pixely, of course.
Ok, time to bring this back up.
Had a go at redoing Michael.
(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/2949/dottmichael2fr9.png)
MMD, sketch by Misj', mine, Bernard for reference
I tried to emulate the style of Dott and went for a stereotypical approach.
Thoughts? Comments?
Quote from: KhrisMUC on Tue 29/05/2007 22:23:44
I tried to emulate the style of Dott and went for a stereotypical approach.
Thoughts? Comments?
That's pretty awesome. I especially like the haircut.
Legs are a bit straight and at an odd angle. He looks like he might topple over or start walking with a "Ministry of Silly Walks" style.
Alongside Bernard, he also looks a bit stiff. TBH he reminds me of when they used to get guest stars in on the A-Team, (who weren't actors).
Thanks, the afro was kind of a last minute addition.
About the legs: I have to admit one could think he had lifted his heels off the ground.
Quote from: Hudders
Legs are a bit straight and at an odd angle. He looks like he might topple over or start walking with a "Ministry of Silly Walks" style.
Quote from: KhrisMUC
About the legs: I have to admit one could think he had lifted his heels off the ground.
While it's true, that they are very straight, and he's leaning forward - so his point of gravity is in front of his body - standing slightly on his toes, I actually think it fits the character (read: I did the same thing in the sketch, so now I'll have to defend it ;) ): standing leaned forward makes him eager. He's a 'jounalist', and wants to press on to reveal this great story. Going back is not an option.
I do agree that it makes him a little stiff (maybe), but that could easily be helped by having an idle animation where he just can't stand still (which would exaggerate his eagerness even further).
The only thing thing I feel that needs a little tweaking are his shoulder, arm, and hand. And maybe he could hold his camera with his left hand or something...but than again, these could also easily be solved in an idle animation.
All in all: I like the sprite (especially the shoes ;D ).
Misj'
Quote from: Misj' on Wed 30/05/2007 08:54:28
standing leaned forward makes him eager. He's a 'jounalist', and wants to press on to reveal this great story. Going back is not an option.
He looks like he's peering over a wall! That's probably quite journalistic, actually!
Quote from: Misj' on Wed 30/05/2007 08:54:28
I do agree that it makes him a little stiff (maybe), but that could easily be helped by having an idle animation where he just can't stand still (which would exaggerate his eagerness even further).
Haha. I like this idea. Something like him hopping from one foot to the other.
Having played the game again just recently the sprite style is fresh in my mind so I did an edit.
1. Removed the whites around his eyes. Some of the dignified characters (less silly) like Jefferson didn't have any and it makes mike look a bit less weirded out.
2. Adjusted his height to fit in with the pre-existing DoTT characters. Bernard was one of the tallest characters in the game (even slouched over!).
3. Made legs a bit more spindly to fit in with the style.
4. Made hands larger to fit in with the style.
(http://members.cox.net/progzmax/dottmichaeled.gif)
I think you've gotten close enough to the style, I would just recommend playing the game or looking at some other DoTT sprites aside from Bernard if you can to get a feel for the different eyes and general shapes they used for the bodies and such. Nice work!
Really cool edit!
I somehow couldn't bring myself to keep the shading as minimalistic as is the case with the Dott Chars, cause it makes them look very flat, IMO.
Your sprite really hits the spot, I'd just tone down the outline of the shoes and move in his left eye by one pixel.
Quote from: KhrisMUC on Tue 29/05/2007 22:23:44
(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/2949/dottmichael2fr9.png)
Funny. I never saw Michael as african-american, but as indian.
Now we have some good versions of the whole team:
(http://www.bonzenmann.de/villa.png)
I've made Razor, Syd, Sandy and Jeff myself, using some parts from 'dott' and 'Sam&Max'. ;)
If anyone wants to work on/with them:
(http://www.bonzenmann.de/team.png)
And Mark Eteer (right) is made from George Washington. 8)
Wow! Those are great. Sandy's head is a bit off-center, but other than that, they look superb. Someone should make a Maniac Mansion remake.
Now *that* is DoTT style. Great stuff!
Sorry to sound stupid, I never played MM, but the guy with no eyes, is he supposed to look like he's falling on his back?
Supposed to look like he's surfing.
Jepp, he's also called 'Sufer Dude'
(http://www.bonzenmann.de/jeff2.png)
Wow, they really look awful!
Is this really constructive? No, it's not. If you don't have anything constructive to add don't add anything at all.
-ProgZ
You're definitely on the right track here, but the main thing you're forgetting is consistency between the characters. Syd for example looks like a giant compared to the others, and in DoTT Bernard is actually one of the tallest characters (taller than Laverne, Hoagie, Ben Franklin, George Washington and Dr. Fred, for instance). I did an edit of just a few of them to give you some ideas of making their proportions similar.
1. Reduced the width of BB's Dave and adjusted the colors to look more varsity. Also put the highlights on the hair at the very top.
2. Altered Sandy to fit more with Dave's varsity outfit and reduced her height.
3. Reduced Syd's height and redesigned him to look more consistent with the other characters. He is now the tallest character in the group (not counting Mike's afro).
4. Altered one orange color to be a bit lighter for Syd and Sandy's hair highlights since the next orange was too close to their skin tone.
(http://members.cox.net/progzmax/team.png)
You don't need to use these as a basis, just make sure all of the characters are drawn to the same scale and with the same colors. Syd and Sandy were using different skin tones and outlines, for instance. Nice work!
Edit: Added Wendy really quickly.
Edit 2: I really like how Misj did Sandy's hair so I altered her. Also added Jeff by request. This is really all I'm going to do since this thread is about helping someone's art look like DoTT style, not to actually do it all for them :).
Wow, very impressive! :o
Could you also do a rework on Jeff? I think your versions are the best, yet. :)
I only miss Dave's jacket. :-\
Quote from: Mould Cheeze on Mon 04/06/2007 05:24:06
Wow, they really look awful!
Did you mean awesome? I fail to see how someone could consider them awful.
Quote from: cobra79 on Mon 04/06/2007 12:30:00
Did you mean awesome?
Yes, sorry. Of course I meant AWESOME!
@ProgZmax Wow, they look great but I think Sandy looks too innocent. I liked the previous Version more it was more bitch-like.
I've never been to fond of paintovers, and pixel-art was never my forte...
But based on ProgZmax's version of Sandy (while not in the original game, I like the idea of them both wearing the same school-colours) I decided to give pixelart a go.
(and to give the same kind of list as ProgZ alway does ;) )
1. Altered her stance to make it more feminine.
2. Altered her cloths to show a little more skin (had to make her breasts a little smaller too).
3. Changed her haircut a little...to make her look a few years older (or just because I wanted to...you choose)
4. Placed her arm behind her back to emphasize her stance (or because I didn't feel like thinking about what to do with her arms)
Technically it's not a paintover :)
100%
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Sandy-Prog&Misj.png)
200%
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Sandy-ProgZ&Misj.png)
Misj'
I like that version of Sandy more but the arms... she is a cheerleader, hidding her arms like that wouldnt fit her character imho.
Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 04/06/2007 08:16:24
You're definitely on the right track here, but the main thing you're forgetting is consistency between the characters. Syd for example looks like a giant compared to the others, and in DoTT Bernard is actually one of the tallest characters (taller than Laverne, Hoagie, Ben Franklin, George Washington and Dr. Fred, for instance). I did an edit of just a few of them to give you some ideas of making their proportions similar.
How do you figure? It's quite normal for people to vary in height by well over a head, and although this cartoon style features gigantic heads, it also invites exaggerating differences (like Asterix vs. Obelix), does it not?
Quote from: ProgZmax on Mon 04/06/2007 08:16:24
(http://members.cox.net/progzmax/team.png)
...This is really all I'm going to do since this thread is about helping someone's art look like DoTT style, not to actually do it all for them :).
Thanks a lot! You've done more than I could hope for! :D
QuoteHow do you figure? It's quite normal for people to vary in height by well over a head, and although this cartoon style features gigantic heads, it also invites exaggerating differences (like Asterix vs. Obelix), does it not?
Not really. Ed Edison (and his duplicate in the future) is the only massive character in the entire game, and the maniac mansion kids (aside from the new additions in DoTT) were all supposed to be pretty normal. That's probably one of the reasons why they didn't use them in DoTT, really. There can be some height variance, but when you're working from one of the tallest characters in the actual game (Bernard in this case) you have to consider that there's a reason why they made him so tall in comparison...because he's tall.
Man, this was always my favorite thread from back in the day. I'm really glad to see you came back to it! The new versions look terrific. My only gripe is that they don't jive 100% with the DOTT style. Their stances are a bit too rigid, their feet are a little too small, etc. It's really very minor. As far as height goes, wasn't Laverne taller than Bernard?
(http://www.bonzenmann.de/team3.png)
Laverne was a bit taller than Bernard. And if you take a look at the original packshot, you can see that Bernard and Jeff are quite short while Syd is really a tall guy.
And Dave has got to wear his 'Lucasfilm-Games'-shirt! 8)
I think they wanted the dott-cast to look kinda ugly. And Bernard, Laverne and Hoagie don't have much sexappeal, don't they...? ;D
The new versions from ProgZmax may have a bit to much detail for dott-style, but (imho) they are by far the best. :)
Yeah, the truth of it is that unless Larry Ahern and Peter Chan were to draw these characters someone would always say the style was different, and maybe they'd be right. You can only try to match the color selection, linework and general design, and anything after that is your own artistic input. For instance, I look at the Jeff I made and the only inconsistency I can find is that it looks a bit cleaner (fewer jagged/blocky lines). All the characters in DoTT didn't have extreme poses, either. I think too much expectation is placed on mimicking the design of Bernard, Laverne and Hoagie rather than the characters and style overall. Once you realize that the people doing this aren't Larry Ahern or Peter Chan and accept that I think you can get past any stylistic variations you perceive to exist. For all we know they could've drawn Dave as a short, skinny Michael J. Fox lookalike to cash in on the whole Back to the Future thing!
Doc! I'm back...from the future!
Anyone else think that the Bernard sprite is looking a little rough compared to these newer ones? :D
Quote from: Mr Flibble on Wed 06/06/2007 18:09:11
Anyone else think that the Bernard sprite is looking a little rough compared to these newer ones? :D
Yeah well...we can solve that by cheating ;)
I know we consider Bernard
et al. to be the Golden Rule...but what if they're not perfect yet? - And yes, I know, some will consider this way too radical, but we might adapt Bernard to the 'fake-DOTT'-style.
100%
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Bernard-Misj.png)
200%
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Bernard-Misj-B.png)
I very much doubt that anyone playing a DOTTified Maniac Mansion would feel the 'new' Bernard to be out of style. But as I said: it's cheating. ;D
Misj'
Ps. By the way, I still think Syd, Razor, and Jeff need some tweaking.
Quote from: Misj'
Ps. By the way, I still think Syd, Razor, and Jeff need some tweaking.
As I said, I'm still a little unhappy with Syd, so rather than spending my time in a usefull manner, I decided to become a member of the look-I-DOTTified-a-Maniac-Mansion-character-Club. So why Syd? - Well, I always imagined him to be stylish and cool(ish)... but ProgZmax's Syd looks a bit too 'baggy' and sloppy for my taste (not the drawing, but his clothing).
So these were my design choises:
1. Make Syd stand tall: he's proud, cool and stylish
2. Emphasize the sunglasses
3. Give him a nice cleft in his chin (it adds to his coolness and it's manly (according to some))
4. Change his hair (they did it for Bernard, so I could do it for Syd :P), but stick to the feeling (kinda).
100%
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Syd.png)
200%
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/SydBig.png)
From left to right: version MM-Box-Art, version Maniac-Mansion-Mania, version Mister L, version ProgZmax, version Misj'
Misj'
Ps. One minor remark: my version feels a little older than ProgZ's version (partly due to the big chin)...I can defend this by claiming that some years have past between MM and DOTT (Bernard also looks a little older for example). Just consider it a weak excuse if you don't like it ;)
Pps. Share your thoughts.
and here we have raymans version:
(http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6118/sydta8jm3.png)
this version fits syds character best in my opinion, which is cool, well humored and well dressed.
the version from misterL is to devious, progMax version looks a bit dishonorable (mobguy),
end the last version from Misj looks like larry laffer, an old narcistic cock ;-)
Quote from: Misj' on Wed 06/06/2007 21:06:45
I know we consider Bernard et al. to be the Golden Rule...but what if they're not perfect yet? - And yes, I know, some will consider this way too radical, but we might adapt Bernard to the 'fake-DOTT'-style.
In fact, we discuss this thing in our forum too.
That's why I created a new version of Bernard in 'fake-DOTT'. It might be radical, but he looks better between the others than the old one. At least this is my opinion. But have a look at it:
(http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9461/bernard3xb9.png)
I used progZmax Wendy as a basis, as you can see. I just wanted to show our forum-members how Bernard could look like in an 'fake-DOTT-style".
Here is also a version, linus added yesterday in our forum:
(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1167/mmcharsrevisitedx2fo5.png)
His version of Bernard pays a bit more tribute to dott-style than mine, I think. But to my mind he looks really nice. So what do you think about that?
Steve, your version wins. While linus' has some more resemblance to the "original", yours is the overall better-looking one. A perfect fake-dott-re-dottet-remastered Bernhard. I love the fly. That's the sort of small, fine detail I love to see. Also, the leaning pose and the poised pen and pad fit the overall character.
Thumbs up from this ghost!
Quote from: Rocco on Fri 08/06/2007 13:21:35
end the last version from Misj looks like larry laffer, an old narcistic cock ;-)
Funny, I don't see the resemblance :)
The truth is, he was inspired by Bruce Campbell (hence the chin) ;D
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/SydInspiration.png)
Misj'
Ha, that's funny.
We even have a 'Ash'-character for our Manaic-Mansion-Mania project in germany. ;D
(http://www.maniac-mansion-mania.com/images/stories/characters_erweitert/ash.gif)
Again, note that the opinions of what looks the 'best' are as varied as the design styles. I'm probably going to lock this thread since it's become less about getting help with a particular sample of art and more about different people supplying their own versions of what they think DoTT style should look like, and that's not what the CL is about.