I keep coming up with stuff that looks like claymation, not that there's anything wrong with claymation. The intent here was a conversation on a Greek fishing boat which was interrupted with the nearby surfacing of an Italian submarine. I came "close." I thought the boat needed to move with the gentle ocean swells, but I came up with a hurricane. Any insights into how much movement is too much movement?
Thanks in advance.
You need a better gif converter. And you need to learn how to animate properly instead of going frame by frame. Frame by frame doesn't work well for 3D, you need to tween between the animations. Are those guys even rigged?
Apart from what Armageddon already said, I don't think that the movement is too much, it's just way to jerky. It should be a gentle, barely noticeable swaying as long as the characters sit, and the harsh movement should happen when they get up.
I actually like the overall look, it's rough but it has some charme. If you did that in actual claymation it would stand out a lot. There's an old sidescrolling shooter that was done in claymation, and it's awesome!
[imgzoom]http://images.jayisgames.com/platypus.jpg[/imgzoom]
Also, have you noticed in movies and such, that people in a submarine stand...well they couldn't do that if the submarine was coming out of the water at the angle you made. It's very much a controlled ascend, while yours is more of a bottle full of air jumping out of the water.
@ Ghost Thanks. I believe some of the jerky motion is also covered by Armageddon's tweening commment. I think you are also correct in that the boat's motion was too much for the existing weather conditions.
@ Armageddon Thanks. These are all sPatch models, without bones or rigging. I rendered in Bryce 7, using origin handles for pivot points. Bryce does offer keyframe animation, but I've yet to get it to work (my shortcoming, not Bryce's). Why Bryce and sPatch? Because I have them at least partially under control. Would welcome a suggestion regarding a gif converter?
Edit: Thanks, also, for your other suggestions. In other words, I should maybe leave out the sub's bridge crew, looksouts, and gun crew? (nod) I did give Gimp a try for the gif file. I messed up the delay time, and I couldn't get Gimp to let me change it? Here it is, slightly accelerated, from Gimp:
@ Anian. Also thanks.
I would highly suggest getting 3Ds Max, the student version is free if you punch in some false information.
As for gifs I always render out each frame in Max and put them together in GIMP, never have color bleeding close to what you have. Also you are starting on a really large scale, character models and full vehicles. You need to practice a lot more which is why I suggest Max, there are limitless amounts of tutorials on every subject. Make stuff like this to start out maybe.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5479044/GlassOJuice01.gif)
@ Armageddon
Your suggestion about Gimp to make the gif files seems a good one. I thank you for it. Regarding where to start, I submit:
I modeled this in sPatch, and rendered in Bryce, using Bryce's keyframe animation to move it around.
Blender is also rather good, and if I remember correctly TrueSpace is freeware now that Caligary is defunct. I had good fun with that program.
Also, the ice tea looks good; much less bleeding!
I wonder if animating frame-by-frame as opposed to tweening is how Aardman achieve that claymation look on some of their 3D productions?
I don't think you can really say "oh this looks kind of like claymation" and then decide that you should do claymation instead.
Claymation is much harder than 3D animation in that you can't do previews and change things around before doing your final render.
You do it and take photos.
Plus, you still need a solid understanding of the way animation works before diving into claymation - don't assume it's a cop out, because it isn't.
It's really hard.
You can tween, then just remove frames. Animation is usually done by having 12 frames per second instead of the usual 24fps, but those frames are duplicated so it's still 24 in the end - first and second frame are frame1, third and fourth frame are frame2 etc.
... which is called "on twos" if you want to look that up.
@Ghost
I have a number of modeling software programs on this system, including a free, late edition of TrueSpace. It has the same problem, for me, that most of the other programs have; I get lost in all the buttons/features. Here is a screen capture of TrueSpace, with the much simpler sPatch modeler interface inside:
sPatch continues to run quite well in Windows 7 and has to have the easiest learning curve of any program out there.
I am new to AGS, but have some serious experiences with doing 3D. Nowadays I can absolutely recommend Blender 2.67. There are so much great tutorials out there (just check Agenzasbrothers) and the programm itself is awesome powerful and absolutely compareable to 3D max, cinema 4d etc. And it is getting more and more features every day. Just think about the new freestyle renderer (=render engine which is specialized to render out toon style graphics).
I agree that learning such a tool is a lot of work, but it is not that hard as it seems.
regards
Tosek
Armageddon's and Tosek's comments had me up late looking at a couple of the modelers I have on this system that "do bones." All I got was a headache, so I pulled one of the models from the boat into Bryce, used Bryce's "origin handles," and made some 8 frame walkcycles:
I think these look usable. I have more doubts about the sideview:
I've appreciated all the feedback, and I would welcome comments about these walkcycles, particularly the side one. I already know the height should vary, and I need to move the camera closer, and I need to figure out why he's moonwalking. I didn't use the imagezoom tags, since these are fairly big anyway. Regarding the model, I know it could have been better, but the more I work with the fellow, the more I kind of like him just the way he is.
It looks like the side view is playing backwards. Try reversing it to see if it looks more natural. A little bounce on each step will go a long way.
The style is interesting, and with some practice you should get much better at the process.
Good work so far.
It's definitely getting there, I can just seen when the front cycle switches over to the mirror image, because of some shading on the chest that is not symmetrical. And I also agree that the side (and to a lesser extent the front and back) walkcycles look backwards. Try reversing them (as dactylopus has already suggested).
I'd give it another 2 weeks of practice and then I think you'll have something a lot more polished.
Also, i don't think moving the camera would achieve the change in height you refer to (known as head bob) - perhaps look at some reference footage and use that as a frame-by-frame reference. :)
@Dactylopus and Frenzykitty
I should probably use a smaller font in this true confession... The image I was relying on for the walkcycle, which was one posted on the forum elsewhere, was walking to the right. I started out with the character walking left, so I flipped the walkcycle image. That would have been okay, only I still went left to right on setting it up, so the natural result was moonwalking. That will be our little secret. Don't tell anyone else, okay?
I enrolled the dude in an aerobics class, which corrected a size issue between front and side views, but seems to have introduced a slight hitch in his get-along. I gave him some new clothing.
I also decided to try generating some quarter views, since I was lugging the camera all around, anyway.
I notice an issue with the left knee, and I should probably have killed the shadows in Bryce. I'm not showing the front and rear walkcycles, but they display a shadow which might be hard to explain if the little guy ever winds up in an actual AGS game.
@Armageddon
You have no idea how much work your Gimp suggestion has already saved me. Thanks for the prod in that direction.
On the character with the gray t-shirt, you seem to have some problems with un-welded vertices on the torso. There are sharp lines, which usually indicates that the surface cannot be smoothed out properly, which usually means that two or more vertices maybe are in the same place, but are not actually connected/welded into one single vertex -> so the software thinks it's two different surfaces with sharp edges.
You have the same issue on the sides of the torso of red shirt guy.
The gray guy has a smooth animation, but as dactylopus pointed out, seems to be walking backwards, while the red shirt guy has a twitch while walking, you should probably smooth that out.
I haven't actually dabbled in Daz software (the makers of Bryce), but I think Daz Studio (which is also free) seems like a quick and easy thing to learn to make walking animations, bones, figure models etc. (much of the stuff is already made you just have to do slight adjustments).
And I know you want to do stuff now (was that way myself), but Blender really has a very big number of tutorials for everything you want to do.
A question for all you folks wanting to ship me off to Blender Summer School: I've got Blender 2.64a on this system. Is there any way to change the interface background color from that dark, dark gray, that effectively blots out the menu items, to something more readable?
Additionally, I have Anim8or on this system. It seems like it would also provide some of the tools I'm being told I need. Any opinions about Anim8or? It looks like it may be out of development in view of the dates I'm seeing on the website.
@Anian
The majority of the character is made up of deformed spheres, so there are numerous unwelded points. sPatch could have spun up a better body shape, but I was just playing around. I still think he has his own charm, but it looks like I may be the only one who thinks so.
@Dactylopus and Frenzykitty
I knew I could count on you guys to keep my moonwalking secret. You both have such honest looking avatars.
Edit:
@Everyone
I've loaded this thread up with so many images that, based on what I'm seeing, it is becoming a pain to load. I will keep this in mind for the future. It may just be my connection, but if it isn't, I'm sorry. I'll not post any more images in this thread.
Quote from: jwalt on Sun 09/06/2013 17:32:07
A question for all you folks wanting to ship me off to Blender Summer School: I've got Blender 2.64a on this system. Is there any way to change the interface background color from that dark, dark gray, that effectively blots out the menu items, to something more readable?
In the "User preferences" Window you can choose between several themes and also create your own.
I'll recommend Blender too. It takes some time to get used to the interface, but once you get the hang of it (and once you know the most important hot keys!), it is a fantastic tool for all kinds of 3D animation.
@Problem
You are a gem! Thank you. Thank you. Thank you! You have saved my eyes. Whoever came up with that default color scheme should be shot.
I'm also a fan of Blender, and if you can catch onto the controls you should do pretty well.
The new walk cycle looks much better. I didn't mind the shadows at all. The bounce in the step helps, but you currently have him bouncing on only a single foot. Try the head bob on both steps of the cycle and it will look more natural.
And don't worry, your secret is safe with me.
You're still going frame by frame and it's jerky, tween dat stuff.
Hi,
you can change every color of blender. Just go to File-> User Preferences -> Themes and change whatever you want (Don't forget to save your changes)
Looking at your character: There seem to be some Normals not flipped correctly.In blender you can fix this by using "recalculate normals"
Thinking about anim8or: Nice approach, but far far away from blender, even if you think about the advanture game making needs. You really should invest some time to learn the basics of blender. You will love it. Making a character for your game could start with: Making a modell using "Make Human", export it und load it into blender. Clean it up in Blender, make some clothes and then adjust the texturing. Use and place the rig from "rigify" and use the auto-rig funktion. Some small adjustments to the rig with weight paint. Use Keys with inverse cinematics for the animation, render the frames to file and use whatever you want. (<= Sound all complicated, but it is not that complicated as it seems)
Regards
Tosek
@Tosek
Problem also gave me that solution; I was able to change the Blender interface. I'd been using sPatch (a very old modeler) and rendering the stuff in Bryce. Bryce doesn't "rig" things, but using linking and origin handles Bryce, movement can be "spproximated." There is no way to "skin" in Bryce, as far as I know. I did wade into Blender, but only up to my ankles. I found an outstanding tutorial for Anim8or, and have been making, what I feel, substantial progress with Anim8or. I think I may need Anim8or as a stepping stone into Blender.
@All
I've gotten a lot of really good feed back here. Thanks, everybody! In the Anim8or tutorial I've been working with, Phoxo was suggested as a useful painting program. I did download it, but haven't used it enough, yet, to have formed an opinion. Anyone use it and have an opinion?
I'd highly suggest just learning 3Ds Max or Blender and using Photoshop or Gimp to make textures. Those tools have everything you need to make nice 3D models. Also head over to Polycount for more advice, those guys are pros and they help people all the time.
Rgarding your original question : "is the boat moving too much".
It is, and it isn't.
It isn't because that's how it would move in reality.
It is, because the waves stay still even though there should be big waves.
So, it's like a boat shaking on non-existing waves.
Anim8or vs Blender...
I went looking for some tutorials on skinning in Anim8or because I was having some problems. Bumped into some Anim8or vs Blender comparisons. Interesting stuff, albeit not at all unbiased. The consensus from you folks seems to be Blender, and I may get there, someday. Again, thanks everyone. And thanks also for the suggestions about the float plane, and the anasazi head. I got sidetracked, but hope, eventually, to return to those projects and take action on some of your suggestions.
It would be much easier to just learn Blender or 3Ds. IMO Anim8or is a piece of crap. :)
Learn basics of Blender, might take a week or two longer, but later when you'll want/need advance features, it'll be easy in Blender, while Anim8or doesn't have them.
@Anian and Armageddon
I'm going to take a look, in a bit, for rigging and skinning tutorials in Blender. I've made two figures in Anim8or. I eventually abandonded the first, since I'd made a number of mistakes along the way. This is the second, and I'm in the process of weight painting, which is proving pretty tedious.
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o756/jwalt10705/for11RayMost_zps76640642.jpg)
If Blender has a "better way" to skin this stuff, it may be enough to get me to concentrate on Blender. I've appreciated the feedback you've both given.
Apologies about the image. Just noticed it's a jpg.
Edit: Well, I viewed two tutorials using Blender to bone and skin a model. Looks like I wade into Blender. Still, Anim8or did clarify several things for me.
Good deal!
I like the new image, you're showing improvement.
Looking forward to seeing what you get out of Blender.
Maybe read 'Figure Drawing' here. (http://www.alexhays.com/loomis/) Your anatomy is all off.
@jwalt: Instead of using vertex groups and weigh painting, you could also use envelopes: http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:2.6/Manual/Rigging/Skinning/ObData#Envelope
@Armageddon - Thanks. I'll snag the book next time I fire up the broadband. It was too big; I'm on a dialup at the moment. I'll add it to the stack of stuff I've accumulated to read about Blender.
@Problem - Anim8or also has the envelopes, but for that first model, I was having issues with them, so I tried weight painting. The envelopes are working better, now, with the second one. I gave up on the first one, but learned some things in the process.
I'm not really into Blender or TrueSpace, as I am an SoftImage XSI user, but what I do in character creation, is first drawing on paper, the front and sideview. Making sure that the proportions are exactly as I want. Then you import the front and side view pictures into your modeller, as a rotoscope guide, and model on top of those.
Afterwards, create a bonestructure/rigging. And start animating within your modeller.
It all sounds more easy than it really is, lol! Just keep looking out for tutorials. If you look for great tutorials, try Digital Tutors.com. Itll cost you about $40 a month, but you'll have access to great video tutorials. I improved heavily through DigitalTutors over the last year.
Check out some sample video's out there, if you're interested :)
@ Minimi
Thanks for the suggestion about Digital Tutors. I'll check them out. I'm not making much headway with Blender. I've been using Hexagon, lately, but no bones/rigging in Hexagon. I have some of the same issues with Hexagon that I'm having with Blender, in that the tutorials for both use so many shortcut keys, not all of which are mentioned by the teacher, so it doesn't take much to get lost. I may also just be dense.
I'm new around here, but "welcome back" anyway.
If you are just about modelling, then I've been advicing for many years now to use Wings3D to start out with! It's like the easiest modeller, though it's just plain box modelling, but i've been making great models with it, and sold many of them online. But for more questions on 3D modelling I advice you to go to www.renderosity.com, it has a great community. And on the chat there, are always some friendly modellers who will help you out. :)
I personally hate blender, I could never get myself around that application, but I know alot who love it. I ended up paying over $2000 on software. lol.