Adventure Game Studio

Creative Production => Critics' Lounge => Topic started by: Shade on Tue 30/05/2006 19:59:36

Title: need help with female character
Post by: Shade on Tue 30/05/2006 19:59:36
well this is my first female character i ever made. i am quite happy with the front view but the side view doesn't really fit to it. anyway heres the sprite.

x1:(http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4674/sandraviews20jy.png) x2:(http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4674/sandraviews20jy.png)

please tell me what i can improve. thanks.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Spongebob_Nopants on Tue 30/05/2006 20:08:43
She looks a bit.....out of proportion. Is she a body builder? lol I have never seen a girl with shoulders like that....shoulders are curved, they arent straight. And from the side view she looks anorexic.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Exorph on Tue 30/05/2006 20:18:12
Yeah, she's like the skinniest thing I've ever seen. If it's done on purpose you should still give her ribs.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Haddas on Tue 30/05/2006 20:34:22
What? You like... FATTIES? (Me hopes someone gets the obscure joke/reference ::))
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: lo_res_man on Tue 30/05/2006 20:37:12
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/PPlaquecloseup.svg/424px-PPlaquecloseup.svg.png)
this is man, this is woman, the proportion of your sprite, look more to me like man then woman, especially the broad shoulder. the face is pretty good though.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Spongebob_Nopants on Tue 30/05/2006 20:43:46
Oh that poor man lol  ;D  ;) the person who drew that was just evil!. i mean lo_res_man's picture btw haha.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Anym on Tue 30/05/2006 20:51:29
Well, we wouldn't want to intimidate the aliens, would we? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_plaque
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Spongebob_Nopants on Tue 30/05/2006 20:57:25
but we wouldnt want them to mock us either lol
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: n3tgraph on Tue 30/05/2006 21:04:52
he shade,

for a first character is pretty good!!


But as said, you should look at the proportions. If you look at the posted anatomy of the female drawing, you can see that the legs are just as long as the torso and head together. Try to change that in your character too!

Besides that, I must say she is kinda skinny. It looks like she just sniffed 2 pounds of coke :P just kiddin.

Try to make her look more female, the shoulders for example are a bit too wide and the legs, arms and belly are very skinny. Women should be nice and juicy in the legs! Especially the upper part!Ã,  8)

Da vinci made a nice picture of the proportions:
(http://www.dace.co.uk/painting/proportion/gkProp4.jpg)
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Kweepa on Tue 30/05/2006 21:52:15
I'd wager a large sum of cash that that's not by Leonardo, mostly because it's not very good. :=
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Maltjik on Tue 30/05/2006 21:56:37
It is not only fat your lady lacks from the side, but also internal organs and muscles. Good face.
Quick google on "woman side":

(http://www.youngwomenshealth.org/fitness/images/my_muscles_side.jpg)

This girl is perhaps not skinny but she has little to no excess flab. She looks healthy.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Shade on Tue 30/05/2006 22:06:28
first of all thanks for the replies.
at first i was shocked as i read the posts because i thought i had to decipher "the da vinci code" but i think i can skip this stepÃ,  ;)
and who needs internal organs and muscles? oh well... ;)
ok i try to follow your suggestions and i will give my best.
thanks again.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: n3tgraph on Wed 31/05/2006 07:18:48
Quote from: SteveMcCrea on Tue 30/05/2006 21:52:15
I'd wager a large sum of cash that that's not by Leonardo, mostly because it's not very good. :=

Could be :P
I found it on a site with another drawing of leo, so I thought, maybe this is one of his quick sketches :)

Anyhow, it doesn't matter who drew it... it's about proportions right?  :=
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Shade on Wed 31/05/2006 21:01:35
ok heres the new version:

x1:(http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/2833/sandraviews24sb.png) x2:(http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/2833/sandraviews24sb.png)

changed the proportions and shading a bit. how is it now?
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Exorph on Wed 31/05/2006 22:34:55
She still looks extremely skinny, and she doesn't have any ribs.
(And this might just be me, but isn'yt she skinnier in the front view than from the back?)
And she looks either extremely worn out or as if she has the stance of an neanderthal in the front view..

But it's better.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Renal Shutdown on Wed 31/05/2006 22:59:06
She's got monkey arms.

Shade:
What sort of feel are you going for on this? Is it cartoony or realistic or very realistic?
Also, if I were you, I'd ditch those poses in favor of a 3/4 body view.  Front and side poses are ugly even in real life, and they're not really necessary.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Mikko on Wed 31/05/2006 23:54:47
I made a quick fix for the shoulder area, that I think the others have tried to point out also.

(http://koti.mbnet.fi/paajanen/ags/shade_girl.gif)

The problem is that her shoulders are like she was a lumberjack. If she is supposed to be skinny you need to move those arms closer to body.

I also second what Spleen suggested about changing the perspective, but that might be a lot of work.

She looks nice and needs just a bit of human anatomy to be gorgeous. Good work.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Shade on Thu 01/06/2006 23:04:56
thanks for your suggestions and thanks for your "quick fix" Mikko! she really looks better now.
i tried to make a 3/4 body view but i don't have any experience with this so please tell me how it looks.

x1:(http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/8185/sandraviews39xj.png)
x2:(http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/8185/sandraviews39xj.png)
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: El Drey on Fri 02/06/2006 00:20:38
Some quick crits:
- try to put her feet together, to find an elegant pose which is probably more feminine
- women tend to bring their elbows closer to their body than their wrists, also in benefit of elegancy
- it wouldn't hurt to stretch the neck a little, but I dunno, maybe that's just my style.
- is she supposed to be skinny? 'Cause her shoulder bones (don't know the proper word) seem to stick out... I know models these days lose weight by sniffin' coke, but really beautiful women have nuth'n too much, nuth'n too less
- try to relax the pose a little, for example: bring a more curvy line in the side view. It's like they say on the Polykarbon tutorials (http://www.polykarbon.com): think of women, think curvy, curvy, curvy!

These are just my impressions, you've made awesome progress with this sprite overall.

I'll try to post animage to show what I mean as soon as I get the time...
And I'm also in favor of 3/4 poses instead of front/side poses. But that's completely up to you.

Keep up the good work!

El Drey.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: seaduck on Fri 02/06/2006 19:30:51
Well.. drawing humans is not very easy - you still need to work on the anatomy

- she is way too "narrow" considering her height
- the waist is too low
- needs more feminine shapes, all her body parts are too long (again in relation to the body surface) and thin
- needs a more dynamic pose
- suggestion: less saturated colors are better as background

Since the problem is anatomy, painting-over wouldn't help much, so I rather tried to redraw it from scratch. I'm not very good at drawing humans, so I re-used a stick-figure from my older sprite for the pose (which was an alien; I just gave it more human proportions).

I don't claim it's very good.. I just wanted to have some fun - and possibly give you some inspiration.

(http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3449/wpox8ix.gif)

The reason why my sprite is smaller and doesn't have shoes is... that I'm lazyÃ,  :P
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: MashPotato on Fri 02/06/2006 21:37:24
Here is a paintover, I tried to change as little as possible:
(http://crabshack.bythegoddess.com/ags/sandra.png)

Mostly, I shifted things around, but I also added/took away some pixels here and there.Ã,  Hope this helps ^_^
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Shade on Sat 03/06/2006 20:09:57
well this is nearly exacly what i had in mind MashPotato! Thanks!
I just finished the 3/4 view from behind. how is it?

x1:(http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/2771/sandraviews39nz.png)
x2:(http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/2771/sandraviews39nz.png)
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: MashPotato on Sun 04/06/2006 04:37:07
I'm glad my paintover helped ^_^
I think you have a little bit of adjusting to do to make the figures consistent across the views.  For example:
-the shading and level of her chest changes between the front/side/three-quarter views (particularly the side view)
-the detailing on the front of her pants in the front view doesn't match the three-quarter view
-the back view shows a lot of butt definition, the 3/4 behind view does not

In general, I am not too keen on how the back of the shirt shows so much of her muscle definition--to me, it looks like her shirt is wet and is plastered against her skin.  I would suggest removing some of the detail, but that's just my personal prefererence ^_^
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Shade on Sun 04/06/2006 13:31:04
i hope i followed your suggestions well.
and well as i read that her shirt looks wet i changed it because it shouldn't be wetÃ,  ;)

x1:(http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7964/sandraviews47ik.png)
x2:(http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7964/sandraviews47ik.png)
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Damien on Sun 04/06/2006 14:58:00
Here's some advice for making the face:

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/DrunkyDuck/Help/sandraviews47ik.png)
x2:
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/DrunkyDuck/Help/sandraviews47ik.png)

-If you connect eyebrows like that and color them black your characters will get a 'cavemanish' look. Seperate them and try reusing the hair color instead of adding another.
-The makeup color stood out too much so it got replaced with the darkest skin shade.
-The eyes are a bit smaller now and pure white was replaced with the shirt's grey color.
-I see you've added another color for the lips, I've remade them using the hair color again. Also, 2 tones are used so the edges look a little smoother.
-Since the lightsource is above the character, the face got shaded this way too with highlights on the cheekbones and on the upper side of the nose.
-Made the ears smaller and lowered them down.
-Dark lines on her hair got softened with the hair's midtone color.

I think that's all.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Shade on Tue 06/06/2006 12:02:11
wowÃ,  :o, the new face looks great! thanks for your advice!
i changed the face in the other views. heres the result:

x1:(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5700/sandraviews56hl.png)
x2:(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5700/sandraviews56hl.png)

but i still dont get why Bush is against evolution...my sprite looks better than at the beginning:

"caveman" -----> "normal" personÃ,  ;)
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Fizzii on Tue 06/06/2006 12:47:31
She looks a bit hunched over in the front view.Ã,  It's partly to do with her hands hanging down not doing anything, and the symmetric pose. It might be better if she leaned a little on one leg, as standing symmetrically is not a natural pose.

Also, her crotch should be higher still. (should be moved up such that the crotch is located at the middle of her height from head to toe). And I reckon her body is now rather on the narrow side give the size of her head (whereas before she was a bit too broad), but she could be malnourished :P.

But she's looking better than before.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Andail on Tue 06/06/2006 22:24:11
She's improving nicely! She hunches a bit and her shoulders are too high and tense; try to lower them a bit and she'll turn out more relaxed.

Her breasts are awkward; they look like apples growing out of her keybones, and the stuff on her chest suggesting a cleavage (I guess) is just wrong. Also not that she is extremely thin, with very girl-like proportions. Except for the breasts. And hm...her bottom? Is she wearing a diaper?

Good progression anyhow, keep working!
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Shade on Wed 07/06/2006 19:45:56
well i have a problem...i don't know how to go on.
sure i will follow your suggestions and i know how i can change the proportions and the pose but i don't know to do the shading or how to make it look right.
probably someone can show me how to do it right or give me a hint.
thanks.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: big brother on Wed 07/06/2006 19:56:46
There only "right" here pertains to your vision for the character. Doing this for you would merely be guesswork on our part.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Helm on Wed 07/06/2006 21:04:37
(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5489/sandra2pu.png)

You have to study anatomy a lot. I mainly suggest a subtle contrapost to the still sprite, avoid mirroring. This is probably one of the stills the player will be looking at the most, so you have to make it interesting and give it some character.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Minimi on Thu 08/06/2006 10:39:59
i think the arms are still a little bit too long. Maybe 5 to 8 pixels too long... but maybe im wrong ;)
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Haddas on Thu 08/06/2006 10:48:58
Quote from: Minimi on Thu 08/06/2006 10:39:59
i think the arms are still a little bit too long. Maybe 5 to 8 pixels too long... but maybe I'm wrong ;)

Not really. I mean, if you let your hands hang, how low do they reach?
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: big brother on Thu 08/06/2006 15:56:34
The latest edit is a good direction to go, although I would raise the crotch of the pants slightly and shorten the arms in relation. I would also try to make the feet look less like flat bricks. The desaturated colors are visually pleasing, but I'd be afraid they'd blend in too much with a background. I'd give the contrast and saturation a little bump.

Ultimately, you need to pick a style you're satisfied with and can easily replicate.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Misj' on Fri 09/06/2006 16:36:28
Hi Shade,

Well, the main problem with the character is, that it is lacking...character that is. Which - logically - is the whole basis of character design. It's not about how well you draw (sure, it helps), it's all about how well you are able to present a persons character. So I won't give you any comments on drawing style etc. It's all about character this time.

I've read the entire thread (actually, I've been following it from the beginning), so let's get back to the beginning. My first impressions of the girls character - and what I could deduce from her pose, looks and clothing - were the following:

From Reply #17 I could see, that she's putting her shoulders forward (3/4-th body view). This most likely indicates that she tries to hide her breasts. While not uncommon, this is often associated with girls who grew breasts at an early age - before their friends - and who tried to hide them to avoid being teased. It's often considered a sign of insecurity (not being proud of your body). The insecurity is also exemplified by her skinniness: she's most likely anorexic (referring to the picture in the first post). Moreover, she uses way to much make-up (if you compare the faces in Damiens edit (Reply #24) you'll see what I mean).

So my first conclusion is: she's insecure about her looks (pose, build, make-up). However, considering the clothing she's wearing (showing her shoulder, the bands of her top, and trousers that show the fact that she shaved her legs) indicate that she wants to hide this fact (by spending a lot of time on her looks)...most likely because she's also ashamed of her shame. To be honest, I very much doubted that was the intention you had with this character.

Now, you've changed many of these thing: she's standing a little more straight (reply #21), she's a little less skinny (reply #13), and she's lost some of her makeup (reply #25). And all these things might make the girl prettier...but it also changes the character the girl represents. The question you'll have to answer is: is she now closer to the character you want her to represent. I can't help you with that, for I have no idea what her character is (that's why I say she's lacking it).

However...all this sounds quite negative, so let me try to be a little more constructive here. Below, you can see an image (A-E). It's not a paint-over (don't like them...they ruin your own creativity), and i'm merely working with silhouettes. They are great for setting up a characters pose. A is your own image, and B is a smoothed-out version. From this I deducted a simple schematic representation (that I can easily edit): C. Now image the girl is talking to a boy. What can we tell about her pose in C? - Nothing. She's neither presenting herself, nor rejecting him (or herself). There's no pride, no shame, no dynamics. She's not interested in what he's saying, nor is she bored. She's just standing there (as if she's a wooden doll). So we go to D. A few weeks ago I was walking near my work, and this girl was standing there, talking to two boys. She had quite a powerful pose. She was self-aware, secure, and - yes - attractive (although not at all my type). She knows what she wants. She knows what she's worth. And she's not afraid to show others. In E I went the other way: she's ashamed again: making herself small. She's got a very submisioned pose, is a little afraid, and is hiding in her 'shell'. She kinda hopes the boy doesn't see her while he's talking to her.


(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/Girl_CharDes.jpg)

Now remember: C, D, and E are the same girl. She has the same posture in each picture. Still, who do you think the boy will ask on a date (the answer is D)? - Now, that's creating a character.

I hope I'm not being too harsh...but adding character to a character will greatly enhance your work. Just write down some keywords of what she likes, hates, is afraid of, wants to be, and then try to present that in her pose and looks. And don't be afraid to exaggerate.

Misj'
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: big brother on Fri 09/06/2006 22:06:27
Quote from: Misj' on Fri 09/06/2006 16:36:28
Still, who do you think the boy will ask on a date (the answer is D)?

Depends on which one puts out.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Krysis on Fri 09/06/2006 22:27:19
I wouldn't ask D on a date. She looks like she's would kick me in the B's.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Dr. Scary on Fri 09/06/2006 23:02:22
And A would chafe something awful.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens on Sat 10/06/2006 05:40:30
Stay on task, people.  This isn't The Dating Game.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: on Mon 12/06/2006 20:47:44
Well, it's not a dating game but as a girl I fully agree with what Misj' wrote.

First of all, Shade, let me tell you that she is very pretty and that the clothes seem to fit a somehow 'renegade', independant character! I hope that's what you aimed for. However, it's a fact that she hunches a bit and that as I see it she is a bit too thin for my tastes. Finally in hy humble opinion her face expression isn't the best; she seems sad and I don't think that's what you want. Anyways, I hope everyone's advice as well as my own will aid you in making a truly nice character. :)
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Shade on Fri 16/06/2006 09:11:53
wow :o thanks to all of you for your advice. it really helps me a lot. it's already better than i expected it to be because all my characters i made before looked like...how shall i put it...cubes or something.
i am still working on the character but recently i hadn't the time to do much.

Quotethe clothes seem to fit a somehow 'renegade', independant character!

hey this is my intention!Ã,  :D

i made a 6 frame walkcycle for her. does it look ok?

x1: (http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/899/sandra143dk.gif) x2: (http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/899/sandra143dk.gif)

and here are the single frames:

x1:(http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/4565/sandraanimation13hz.png)
x2:(http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/4565/sandraanimation13hz.png)

thanks again to all of you. you are great!

Shade

EDIT: well i think i am too lazy to fix the arm thingy...
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: jasonjkay on Fri 16/06/2006 11:07:39
Not bad, he main problem I see is that the knee in frame 4 looks a little too rounded for her leg in that position. Anyway great charachter and cool animation.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Bombadil on Fri 16/06/2006 11:54:40

It looks great but maybe you should make his face or his hair move a little. It seems too static.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Shade on Fri 16/06/2006 13:49:35
actually he is a femaleÃ,  ;) but never mind.Ã,  :)
i'll see what i can do.
Title: Re: need help with female character
Post by: Saberteeth on Fri 16/06/2006 13:56:32
Hm, the arm is to stiff. Also, your hand should also be more loose, even sway a little.