We lost a few background artists for our game ... so I decided to take on the role myself.
I wanted to try a style I hadn't yet tried (some of you may remember the images I posted for the "Release Something" thing awhile back ...)
Anyway ... since I'm new to this style I wanted to get some feedback on it:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ov/sewers02.png)
- this'll be a scrolling background
Thoughts? Improvements? Problems?
My biggest concern is the lighting ... Andail? Loom?
Much thanks ...
The lighting looks good IMO, but the lighting on the catwalk seems awkward.
The planks seem to sit right on the edge of the concrete, maybe lengthen them. Also the right board seems to sit higher on the area where the character is.
The walk ways on the far right and left of the image (behind the bars) look too wide or too low. Something about them seems out of place.
The dirt on the closest walkway is out of place. The far walkway is very nice, but the closest has a weird wispy look.
All around the style is great. You've always got a great sence when it comes to mixing styles.
The lighting and use of colour is very good, nicely atmospheric. The only thing that sort of bugs me are the fracture lines in the stones. They seem a bit out of place...
Great BG for - what I expect - is going to be a great game...
Would probably go for something like this:
(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/dms_v2.gif)
Since there only seem to be one lightsource in a pretty large enviroment, most would be very dark. The light would've probably been a dull fluorescent lamp (which has a green tint) but a warm tungsten would provide more color contrast so that would've been my choice. A fluoroscent light would probably serve better if it's supposed to be a more scary looking enviroment though.
I like the wall textures and enviroment was interesting, but the lighting struck me as quite boring as you mentioned.
Edit: The very messy photoshop file (http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/dms_v2.rar)
Edit II: Updated the files. Some things that struck me once I had posted.
I totally like the overall feeling (detail, mmm!), but one thing seems not right to me:
The bricks on wall. It feels very much like there's a gray wall with vertical and horizontal lines painted on it.
I recommend trying to make brick-lines much darker. And maybe shade each brick individually to make overall look more believeable.
The problem (I rely on original, not edited bg) is strong near door, but bricks near the archways feel already quite close to correct.
Also, the reflection of light on water is a good idea: Try to make something similar as Loominous did.
Covering such a lovely and detailed bg with darkness (as Loominous suggested) would be realistic, but sounds like a waste of hard work to me. Maybe just slight adjustments or more lights?
I agree with the bricks needings a bit of detail. The boards, I think, could be fixed (made longer a bit as suggested) and darkened a little bit, they just look more cartoony than the rest of the room. I don't think the whole picture needs darkened. Unless it is a specific "dark room" type of scene, it is almost always asumed in old adventure games that there is at least some ambient light, plus the character would pop out too much I think. The last thing I would suggest is messing with the sewage or water or whatever it is, a bit. The reflection is too clear and looks almost like you are seeing into the water, or that it is just really clean water that happens to be tinted green, and either as objects or on the bg I would suggests putting some small junk in there too, it just looks way too clean to me.
Quote from: Evil on Fri 12/08/2005 21:44:51... but the lighting on the catwalk seems awkward.
Yes I see what you mean ... I have attempted to correct this in the latest update.
Quote from: miez on Fri 12/08/2005 21:52:00The lighting and use of colour is very good, nicely atmospheric. The only thing that sort of bugs me are the fracture lines in the stones. They seem a bit out of place...
Great BG for - what I expect - is going to be a great game...
Farlander said the same thing about the cracks ... It was funny because right before I posted it I made them darker 'cause I thought they looked too light! I have updated them in the latest edit.
And thanks for the praise, coming from you it's an extreme complement! Your style was the major influence for when I started in on this new style!
Quote from: loominous on Fri 12/08/2005 22:45:22I like the wall textures and enviroment was interesting, but the lighting struck me as quite boring as you mentioned.
As always, your ability with light just amazes me! Thanks much for the edit!! I took into account some of what you did, but I didn't want to darken and, as InCreator mentions, lose the texture/detail of the other areas so I decided to give it a "hollywood" style darkness ... IE, turn the stuff that is supposed to be in the dark a shade of blue!
Also, as much as I loved the way you altered the water, I don't want the slime to be steaming or reflective ... I want it to be a thick goo of sludge ... I don't thnk I've quite achieved it yet ... but I'm still working on it!
Quote from: InCreator on Sat 13/08/2005 00:09:29The bricks on wall. It feels very much like there's a gray wall with vertical and horizontal lines painted on it.
Covering such a lovely and detailed bg with darkness (as Loominous suggested) would be realistic, but sounds like a waste of hard work to me. Maybe just slight adjustments or more lights?
Thanks for the bit about the bricks! I had been looking at this piece for so long that things like that tend to slip right by me ... I have made them (to my eyes) look
much better in the edit!
Lighting issue addressed above!
Quote from: LilBlueSmurf on Sat 13/08/2005 05:16:14... and either as objects or on the bg I would suggests putting some small junk in there too, it just looks way too clean to me.
You obviously haven't seen much of my other work!! Trust me, I will fill this sucker with details :) (This is still a WiP) but thanks for the tip either way.
So here is my latest edit with much thanks to the wonderful CL!
(http://www.twin-design.com/ov/sewers02b.png)
- I love the way the blue contrasts with the warm light of the lamp
- I totally love the new brick lines (thanks for the tip InC!)
Better? Worse? Hit me with some honesty!
My one crit... and this is completely nit-picking a fantastic image... the cracks on the walls and floors look a little to evenly spread out (i.e. one crack on every sidewalk tile). It's just an example of the human mind attempting to mimic random behavior, but instead producing a very regular pattern.
Better, definetly better.
And... that's about all I could crit/suggest here.
To fake even a bit more detail, you could try adding a tiny bit of noise to the stone floor...
Also, the wooden boards in the center are most undetailed and somewhat boring part of the bg. If you like - and are able to use my idea so it'll look good, you could also try to lighten edges of boards, something like this:
(http://www.increator.pri.ee/i/critshelp/sewerwood.png)
That's one of my 10000 ways to fake detail (I should write a book!) - it makes wooden and metal objects look better on some occassions... but only some.
The new one looks great. The warmness is almost too much from the light. I'd make it more of a yellow/green color then an orange. The sludge would be affected by this light aswell. It'd be more blue and the highlighted areas would be orangish. Catwalk looks better, as does the dirt on the closest path. The purple tone made it much more appealing.
Sloppy paintover
Original:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ov/sewers02b.png)
Changes:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/TikiTikiMan13/dm-paintover-8-12-06.png)
Won't stand up to close scrutiny; was made hastily, sorry.
Just some quick notes, it's getting fairly late here, I want to go to bed.
- I liked the blue contrast too, but it was a little too blue, so I made it match the sludge more, almost as if it were glowing.
- Darkened some areas around the edges up
- Did a quick attempt at some 'thicker' water. also darkened the ends of the water a bit.
- Pretty minor door changes
I've never been very skilled at paintovers, but hope this'll help some.
Darth, this is a fantastic screen. I love it. Where can I learn more about your game?
I think your latest version is as good as it can be, truthfully. The light is everything but realistic, but it would serve absolutely no purpose pursuing such realism (for instance, dark areas would only be bluish if it was outside, and the surfaces would pick up colours from the sky. Also, the light is far too defined, for being just an ordinary lamp.)
Over all, an excellent job!
Relief to see most evil neutral colors gone.
Couple of other things I'd change:
(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/dms_v3.gif)
I) Surfaces
One thing that has remained from the original pic is the flat surfaces. These work well in isometric styles but once you start going for more painterly like qualities they'll add a sterile unconvincing look.
It boils down to gradients really, which if used in one manner can nauseate beyond belief, but in another emulate real-world conditions making the enviroment seem believeable and thus hopefully increase the immersion.
In the edit I've tried maintaining the lightlevel of the surfaces while adding gradients, meaning I've made parts brighter and some darker.
In the center wall, I've made the bottom lighter and also made the color more neutral. This is due to the light bouncing off the floor up on the wall. The color changes because the colors blend, the warm light blending with the cool surrounding creating a sort of grey (opposing colors blended creates grey). Same goes for the walkway closest to the camera where I darkened the edges and brightered the center.
Darkened edges will lead the eye towards the center and usually adds some nice mood and is a common "trick".
Added a gradient on the lit up part of the center wall and ground as well.
II) Colors
The biggest problem as I see it is that the blue tint of the center wall isn't present elsewhere, making it seem like a blue wall, not a grey one. To remedy this, simply make sure to tint all other shadow areas similarly. The water/goo in particular has maintained it's hue too well.
Another problem that sticks out is the edges of the lit up parts on the wall, which are very saturated. As I mentioned, opposite colors neutralizes eachother, so the saturation should be low or it'll look fake.
I suppose you probably ignored the character when doing all this, but in order to get her to blend in she'll need to adopt the same hue as the light in which she is standing. The shading is also too "isometric" like to work imo, and I would go with simple cell shading.
III) Misc
The wooden boards had a black outline which stood out.
The lit up part of the wall had an inversed gradient, where it got brighter further down instead of closer to the source.
Edit:
Quote from: InCreator on Sat 13/08/2005 00:09:29
Covering such a lovely and detailed bg with darkness (as Loominous suggested) would be realistic, but sounds like a waste of hard work to me.
Don't agree. As Iain McCaig puts it, you must be ready to kill your babies; if it's not right it should go. Now, whether it's right is up to the taste of mr Mandarb, but keeping things just because you've spent time on them will just hurt the image.
Latest edit looks great Darth, like something straight outta Broken Sword.
Good job!
Darth,
Whatever you end up doing, I just have to say I love your style.
It's so bloody awesome.
Great background Darth! It looks great as it is.. but Loominous's latest edit is spot on! Superb.. I'd go with it, as it makes a whole lot of difference...
I love the Critics Lounge!
I thought the image looked pretty good when I first posted it ... but I'm so much happier with where it's headed ...
still a wip:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ov/sewers02c.png)
- I'm
much happier with the 'water' part now ... looks much more 'sludge-ish'
- with the light color of the background around the image some of the details are lost, against an all black background they jump off much better!
QuoteDon't agree. As Iain McCaig puts it, you must be ready to kill your babies; if it's not right it should go. Now, whether it's right is up to the taste of mr Mandarb, but keeping things just because you've spent time on them will just hurt the image.
There's actually quite a bit of detailing on the back walls of the tunnels, but I wanted to make it dark and dirty so that detail is lost in the interest of the image. However ... I wanted to keep most of the 'walkable' areas dark, yet visible.
loominous - I went and added some gradients ... man, you learn something new everyday. I will also be making another version of her character to fit better into the changing light conditions in the sewers. Much thanks for your help!
Josh - I sent you a PM with lots of juicy details!
Andail, Cluey, aussie, and Igor - Thanks for the kind words and advice!
Tiki - thanks for the paint over ... with loominous' and yours I found a color I rather like
InC - I tried a bit of your advice on the boards ... a little more subtle though.
Evil - I lost the purple tone, but added some more noise/dirt/etc to the path (and it's darker now)
On a closer inspection of this seemingly perfect gloomy image I made a horrifying gut-wrenching discovery. if you squint you can see Jimmy Hoffa in the brick wall... just kidding. Actually I'm more interested in the rusty bars. they look very shiny and new to be that rusty. They could be brand new, but also copper. However, copper tends to turn greenish when it corrodes. Right now the neatness and shinyness of the bars is what disturbs me the most, and one of the few things too. the last crit I have is on the foreground wheel. It looks weird. They don't necessarily have to be all black either. maybe the lighting might make them a little coloured at the edges? Just my 4,30â,¬
Quote from: Haddas on Sun 14/08/2005 01:32:27... if you squint you can see Jimmy Hoffa in the brick wall... just kidding.
You found the subliminal image!!
Quote from: Haddas on Sun 14/08/2005 01:32:27Actually I'm more interested in the rusty bars. they look very shiny and new to be that rusty.
I'll see if I can dull them down a bit ... I was going for old iron bars that had completely rusted over. These typically tend to be the burnt umber color with splotches of oranges and browns. I wanted to give them some dimension too though which is probably what causes the shiny effect.
Quote from: Haddas on Sun 14/08/2005 01:32:27the last crit I have is on the foreground wheel. It looks weird. They don't necessarily have to be all black either. maybe the lighting might make them a little coloured at the edges?
I'm actually considering removing the foreground elements entirely. In my first post, the contrast between fore and back grounds made them stand out. Now they're much harder to make out and I don't know that they're necessary any more.
Awesome improvement!
You are right about the pipes in front. They look too flat now.
Since it's a scrolling background you could have a couple of smaller, fatter pipe elements that hang from the ceiling or protrude from the bottom, and that move with parallax.
However, I'd move on - I don't want this to be another FoY :)
Quote from: SteveMcCrea on Sun 14/08/2005 16:55:50Since it's a scrolling background you could have a couple of smaller, fatter pipe elements that hang from the ceiling or protrude from the bottom, and that move with parallax.
You read my mind! That's exactly what I was thinking ...
I'm also trying to figure out a way to make the sludge move ... just slightly. Just to add a little more 'life' the background.
edit - Updates:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ov/sewers02d.png)
- changed the water a bit
- added some shading to the foreground elements
I plan on adding lots of little details, such as:
- barrels
- rubbish
- flotsam
- signs (faded)
- maybe a skeleton here or there
These sewers are in Paris ... Any French speaking people know how I would phrase "Exit" as in a painted EXIT on the wall with an arrow pointing the last screen? I looked it up on a translator but there were 40 options and I wasn't sure which one to use!
My my my. That's marvellous! Stunning! Better than I even could've dreamed of! Now another thing. The water is the perfect sludgeish type, bt it looks almost too sludgeish. Like Ghostbusters style.
That plank looks like it should've floated off, as tree hs the tendency to float. You say you will be adding more detail, so I can't say, but I'd like to see som of those bricks chipped or fallen out. They look brand new under the light.
However, don't take my nitpicking too seriously. You've done a magnificent job already. Party on!
Wow. I really like this background, especially the water effect, well done
I would say that transitions to dark parts need a light blue tint. Also I think that the last version is a little bit too dark, not being able to see the end of the path is a bit... "disturbing". One last thing, the dark line at the edge of the path stands out too much. Maybe you should get rid of it and put instead a luminous border, because of the light on the other side.
In french, the word for exit is "Sortie".
Again, well done :)
Dorcan - Thanks for the French lesson :)
About the darkness ... I'm on a different computer (visiting my parent's house) and the background is so totally dark that you can see almost no details.Ã, Is this a problem for anybody else as well?
On my screens at home it's much lighter and I'm wonderin' if my father just likes to keep his screens darker or if I keep mine too light? (we both have dual-monitor setups in case you're confused about the plural).
Haddas - I want the water to be stagnant ... it's essentially immobile and just sits there and stinks. This part of the story is the old abandoned sewers which aren't used anymore. So they're in bad shape.
I am going to distress/damage some of the bricks as well as add lots of other bits of details to each! Thanks!
wow! some great attention to detail! i hope the game will be as good as the backgrounds! ;D
some wonderful artwork! keep it up!
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Sun 14/08/2005 21:29:39
Haddas - I want the water to be stagnant ... it's essentially immobile and just sits there and stinks. This part of the story is the old abandoned sewers which aren't used anymore. So they're in bad shape.
Allright. Sounds good to me!. Don't forget to add leaves, as they're probably gonna flow down to the sewers with the rains. However I doubt they completely seal off a sewer system, so the water would still be flowing. cause water will still enter and exit freely. I don't suppose the water is pushed forward by any pumps anyway. but this is just way nitpicking. I'm happy with this as it is too. Have I told you how great that looks?
Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Sun 14/08/2005 21:29:39
DorcanAbout the darkness ... I'm on a different computer (visiting my parent's house) and the background is so totally dark that you can see almost no details.Ã, Is this a problem for anybody else as well?
On the LCD monitor on my home computer, it's perfectly clear. On the CRT I have at work, even the original was too dark to make out anything in the shadow areas. It just looks black. And I have it set to max brightness. I would recommend that you lighten it up a little.
I'd also urge you to add some of the highlights in darker areas that loominous did in his edit. They really gave some life to the scene, I thought.
Here is the latest edit:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ov/sewers03.png)
- added some holes and more cracks
- added some hi-lights here and there
- added some rubble on the ground
- some more details to come (though I don't want to clutter these images up too much, but a few more bits here and there will be okay)
With the weekend over I won't have much time to work on this during the week. But I really feel like I'm almost done with it (them). We have over 80 backgrounds planned for this game and if I spend too much time on each we may never finish the darn game!
This is a marvelously atmospheric backdrop, but that's been said. The only thing I would suggest is that you make sure to fade to black between the two images to avoid the effect that always irrtates me in adventure game mazes and under Monkey island where the game cuts between backdrops that are almost identical. Without a fade it could look like the door vanishes and the pipes jump from one side to the other.
Well, I guess that he will neither make a cut nor a fade to black, instead it will be one big scrolling image.
Oh, yeah, by the way, great background, I'm really jealous. But you should really move on to the next one!
Ozzie - I don't want to make it one big scrolling background because the perspective gets wierd looking. I put them together in photoshop and it's just not a pleasing result.
And yes ... I'm moving on to the next one very soon (just a few more details to add (objects mostly)).
Ali - The whole of each background will not be on the screen at the same time (as they are twice the width of our game's res) so I'm pretty sure that effect you mentioned won't happen due to the scrolling.
However, we haven't put them into AGS yet so if it's a problem, as you said, we'll do a fade out!
Thanks!
You know, this background somehow has the same atmosphere that Oddworld: Abe's Exoddus had. For me it feels the same anyway. Great job! I have one problem with the character. Is her left (right from here) arm supposed to be positioned like that? It just looks weird for me. But the bg is amazing! :)
As i can't seem to post in our forums darth, this looks fantastic now. I must look up parralax, it sounds like something i may have to do.. :)
Some more things:
(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/dms_v4.gif)
The saturated border of the lit bright areas are still there giving it a fake impression (the upper left mark).
The gradient of the bright part of the wall is still odd in that the brighter parts are at the farthest corners, which is quite the opposite of what I'd imagine how it would be, and makes it look like a selflit wall.
Another thing is the lighting of the wooden board in the lower left. Atm it appears to be shaped something like a gold ingot, you know, with those tilted edges. If the surface isn't visable from the light's position, it shouldn't be lit, and if visable, evenly lit if flat (unless close to the lightsource, like the wall).
-
Anyway, I love that sortie sign and think case the background is vastly improved. I think a common mistake is to move on way too quickly from a picture to the next. This means the next one will feature the same things that is holding the last one back and the progress will be very gradual.
The critics lounge is a prime tool to steepen this curve, since it features work on all levels, meaning that anyone can find work that is roughly on their level and skip the whole timeconsuming process of actually drawing/painting and start at the point where they have trouble figuring out what's actually wrong, and how to improve it. Everytime you find something that you think can be improved, and manage to improve it, you've automatically raised your next image up a notch. If this is true, and I believe it is, you can improve your abilities vastly faster by criticising other's and your own work than by painting/drawing new images, if by criticising we mean practically improve images on roughly your own level.
I think it's a shame that few people use this tool in this selfish manner.
Darth---you should really do a background tutorial. Those backgrounds look fantastic. I don't know how you create those rich textures, but I'd love to know!
My one question though---does the character blend in well with the background? She seems so cartoony next to your background art.
This is awesome. I really admire your ability to keep improving a seemingly flawless background. I'm with anarcho, you should make a tute.
I must say if I ever managed to do something half as good, I'd be cracking down on the next bg without ever looking back.
loominous - thanks again for your continued help! You've shown me how to take this background from "okay" to "great". I, selfishly and gladly, will use the CL for this :)
While your edits definitely make the image look more realistic, I have decided to forego
some of the changes. Just because I
really like the look I've achieved. (just some slight alterations from what you suggested)
I'm at work, and can't post them now, but I will when I get home tonight.
Again, thanks for all your help and advice, I consider it priceless!
Quote from: Anarcho on Thu 18/08/2005 21:17:39Darth---you should really do a background tutorial. Those backgrounds look fantastic. I don't know how you create those rich textures, but I'd love to know!
Gosh ... I could probably make a tutorial. I never really thought about it. The problem is finding the time :)
Quote from: Anarcho on Thu 18/08/2005 21:17:39My one question though---does the character blend in well with the background? She seems so cartoony next to your background art.
My team and I were discussing this the other day. I rather like the contrast between the cartoony character and the richer backgrounds. I've never been a fan of the uber-detailed characters. The characters, as I have them now, in conjunction with the backgrounds gives it a style that I totally dig!
Do you not like the way it looks?
Quote from: aussie on Thu 18/08/2005 21:25:21I must say if I ever managed to do something half as good, I'd be cracking down on the next bg without ever looking back.
Don't sell yourself short. I totally dig the art of Chick Chaser. Sure it's different, but it definitely has a very nice style!
And ... I'm aching to start a new background!! I just don't have the time :( Work is crazy! But trust me, I'm really looking forward to continuing on in this style. It's a lot of fun to work with.
Oh ... and thanks :)
No I really like your character art...but I'm not sure if the styles mesh. Actually, I think the problem might be that she isn't effected by the light...she her colors changed when she walks away from the light it would help a lot.
But seriously, create a tutorial when you find the time. There haven't been many good art tutorials in a while. If I hadn't had Eric's tutorials, I never would have gotten anywhere.
Quote from: Anarcho on Thu 18/08/2005 22:52:14No I really like your character art...but I'm not sure if the styles mesh. Actually, I think the problem might be that she isn't effected by the light...she her colors changed when she walks away from the light it would help a lot.
I'm not sure if I'm going to create a "hued" character for when she's in/out of the light, but we'll definitely be using the AGS lighting system to darken her when she walks into the shadow areas.
Here's the [small] update, as promised:
(http://www.twin-design.com/ov/sewers03b.png)
- added some shadows
- changed the water a bit
- altered the lighting a bit
When I have free-time this weekend I'll be adding some objects and more details, I just don't have the time right now :(
Quote from: Anarcho on Thu 18/08/2005 21:17:39
Darth---you should really do a background tutorial.Ã, Those backgrounds look fantastic.Ã, I don't know how you create those rich textures, but I'd love to know!
My one question though---does the character blend in well with the background?Ã, She seems so cartoony next to your background art.
NO! do not distract my bg artist from his work, he has no time for puny tutorials. He must work till his mouse fingers drop off.
It really is looking lovely now though.