I was just playing with Poser today and found out it really improved since the version 2 i tried a few years back.
You have now much greater control over characters and can create them from beginning (with bones) or you can deform existing ones (more sucessfully than in previous versions), add your textures, create your hair, etc...
In general it's much less limiting and it gives you more freedom (cartoony characters are now completely possible). While, naturally, it still can't compete with full feature 3d programs, it's quite powerful and especially fun to use.
Anyway- here's one i just did:
(http://maniac.adventuredevelopers.com/girl.jpg)
If any of you did some stuff with Poser feel free to post here :)
Impressive!!!
I first thought like, "What?!? Igor playing with Poser? Can I trust anyone anymore?" But when I saw the image I realized why you were playing with the program. The image rocks! It definitely isn't the generic Poser character I was expecting to see. Even the renderer seems to have changed substantially. Or did you make that great lighting manually?
I probably wouldn't use Poser for game characters just because it's Poser, :) but playing around should be pretty fun. I actually tried the fourth version probably about two years ago and I really liked it. Didn't have to spend lots of time on the models. The only thing I didn't like about it was the fact that they all looked the same. Well, the nudity made up for it.
Just kidding. ;)
Hey Pessi! Agree with you about using Poser for a game. Well... it's...eh... Poser :)
However i must admit it's *really* fun to play with it (not just because of nude models ;)). And now that it offers much more creative freedom&diversion, it could actually be useful beyond sheer toying.
About lighting- yeah, i did it manualy. I found out that lighting literary made or destroyed the pic (the defoult setting was typical Poserish and it gave the character that distinctive lifeless-doll look).
I've always detested Poser, just because well, it was garbage, but the fact that you somehow created Christina Ricci with the latest version makes me want to take another look.
Sweet! That's a really nice model, isn't generic like my attempts in the past with the old versions. I like the lighting, I think I might give the new version a try...what version is poser up to now?
Damn you and your almighty God-like skillz of wonder!!
I've had Poser 5 for 6 months and haven't been able to produce anything LIKE that..
Grrah..
Anyways, very nice.. Did you make it from scratch or just used morphs?
Hehe, yeah Rodekill, looking at it she really reminds a bit on Christina and i guess a bit on Thora Birch too. Well, i guess this shows for which actresses i'm sucker for ;)
Keiko- i was using Poser 5
LilGryphMaster- i used morphs on this default model:
(http://maniac.adventuredevelopers.com/defoult1a.jpg)
i then added hair manually and changed a little bit textures. But as i said, the thing that made the biggest difference was the lighting :)
Igor that picture is great! i had Poser 4 and after about 10mins i wanted to throw the pc across the room :-[
i.ve got Poser 5 now and its so much better, i've never got anywhere near that piccie tho, i used poser in my last game but it was a cartoon character, the other models do look like the attack of the clones!
Thanks Igor, maybe I should try out Poser 5 some time...
Very nice! It doesn't look anything like those generic poser models you see oh so frequently. plus the texture, the lighting and the expression all help to set it apart.
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/oldman01.jpg)
Probably the best way to stop Poser stuff from looking like Poser stuff is to invest in the Millenium figures (Michael & Victoria) from daz3d.com
This is a character from one of the games I'm working on, created using a heavily morphed Michael 2 with a texture map I made in PSP 7 from photographic references. The hair looks a bit naff due to it being painted on, I'll be making proper 3D hair for him later.
- Graham
whoa, that's very impressive....!
is your game going to be an adventure? ._.
Here's a character from my game, too. This isn't a screenshot...just a quick render I did of one of the characters (you don't normally see him close up, so I didn't put a whole lot of detail into his face or skin tone).
(http://www.angelfire.com/alt2/music8/QuickRender.jpg)
It's true. The Daz3D stuff may cost a little, but it's well worth it.
I still want a hand-painted touch to the characters and backgrounds in my game, though. I'm trying to find an easy procedural way to do this in Photoshop (e.g., a custom Photoshop Action) with minimal final postwork required. Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions?
Electric_hare: those head shots are really fantastic!
Btw i have a question for you Migs and Electric_hare. As far as i know Poser now lets you create completely your own figures (from bone structure, etc.). Were figures on Daz3d created that way? I'm asking because, while majority of characters there still has something Poser-like in them, a few of them really show that a great variety of styles IS possible if done right.
I mean, i wouldn't buy a model (with existing models you are never able to do *exactly* what you have in mind and so you are very limited... plus, morphs created over existing model, always keep some characteristics of original- the result is, that in a time, those specific character looks become labeled as "Poser" ones), but if there's a way to build your own characters from a start i don't see a reason to not use a program like Poser for more serious stuff too.
In general i do think the Poser system is the future of 3d progams- maybe not yet, but without a doubt in a few years, when it will gain even more flexibility. It certainly won't be easy to create completely new character, but think of possibilities of great Poser morphs once you'll have an original model created. Making an 3d animated movie with bigger cast will be much easier.
Quote from: Igor on Thu 02/10/2003 09:08:11
The head shots are really fantastic!
Btw i have a question for you Migs. As far as i know Poser now lets you create completely your own figures (from bone structure, etc.). Were figures on Daz3d created that way? I'm asking because, while majority of characters there still has something Poser-like in them, a few of them really show that a great variety of styles IS possible if done right.
I mean, i wouldn't buy a model (with existing models you are never able to do *exactly* what you have in mind and so you are very limited... plus, morphs created over existing model, always keep some tiny characteristics of original- the result is, that in a time, those specific character looks become labeled as "Poser" ones), but if there's a way to build completely your own characters i don't see a reason to not use a program like Poser for more serious stuff too.
In general i do think the Poser system is the future of 3d progams- maybe not yet completely, but certainly in a few years, when it will gain even more flexibility. It won't be easy to create completely new character, but think of possibilities of great Poser morphs once you'll have a model created. Making an 3d animated movie with bigger cast will be much easier.
I'm not sure how the Daz3D figures were made, though I assume it was made like you say. They're meticulous, though, and incredibly life-like. Pretty nice stuff.
I disagree that Poser is the future of 3d programs. It's nice for simple things, like graphic novels and such, mainly because it's relatively cheap (only a few hundred bucks). Most professional 3d animators like Pixar et al have their own in-studio 3d programs. Besides, there's a LOT more to 3d art and animation than characters.
For the general masses, Poser is nice to have around. I don't think Poser will ever move beyond character modelling...that's what it does best, so why would they change it? You CAN import models like OBJs into Poser, but Poser's renderer is geared toward rendering its own characters in the best possible way. Other programs are way ahead of Poser and have far better renderers overall. The lights can be a pain to work with, too, since the right character image depends so heavily on the right lighting.
Plus, you'll find that making the best pictures with Poser requires you to do quite a bit of postwork in a photo editor, like Paint Shop Pro or Photoshop. The picture I made is one I just slapped together in about 30 minutes, and applied some simple Photoshop Actions I customized to help me out. To make it look really good I'd have to spend at least a few hours playing with specific filters, and using brushing techniques (e.g., I often go around the edges of the characters and just "feather" them into the background, so it looks like the blend in better). It's especially time-consuming if you're trying to fix up a character's hair. Fortunately, my character was bald and facially hairless. :)
Agree with your points. When i said "i think the Poser system is the future of 3d progams" i didn't mean Poser as a progam is future, but its system of morphing itself (for characters of course). Right now are 3d programs still very clumsy when it comes to interface and every artist will tell you this breaks creative flow. So far 3d programs are more suitable for programmers and technical freaks than for artists (that's why studio needs 2 "technicians" (or more) on one artist- and this costs). I'm absolutely sure 3d programs will become more userfriedly as 3d will advance and i think Poser is a first step (even if clumsy) in that direction.
Quote from: Igor on Thu 02/10/2003 11:49:07
Agree with your points. When i said "i think the Poser system is the future of 3d progams" i didn't mean Poser as a progam is future, but its system of morphing itself (for characters of course). Right now are 3d programs still very clumsy when it comes to interface and every artist will tell you this breaks creative flow. So far 3d programs are more suitable for programmers and technical freaks than for artists (that's why studio needs 2 "technicians" (or more) on one artist- and this costs). I'm absolutely sure 3d programs will become more userfriedly as 3d will advance and i think Poser is a first step (even if clumsy) in that direction.
Morphs ARE incredibly useful for characters, but you're right...I don't really think that morphs are the answer to 3d in general. However, you're still limited in your model structure with morphs, since you're only working with dials and you may need to create an entirely new morph to accomplish what you want. If you have the know-how, why not just go in and change the mesh itself rather than devising a new morph? It's faster to just change the mesh in a 3d program than making a whole new morph, unless you know you're going to reuse the morph repeatedly for other models.
And I certainly hope 3d programs become more user friendly, because that's certainly not the trend right now. They keep adding more and more things, increasing the complexity so much you practically need a 1000-page manual just to explain and sufficiently demonstrate the new features of each release (there are some that attempt to do just this, though usually not quite 1000 pages long).
After working with Poser 5 for a month and a half, I must say that the new features are somewhat disappointing.
Sure, at first they are VERY cool. Playing around with the cloth, hair and face room made it all seem very exciting... until you realized that it was so poorly implemented. It's simple things like how you can't import faces to the face morph room, only export them - so you'd better be sure your characters face is exactly as you want it before closing down the program. Or the cloth room, which really is a pain to use compared to the old comforming clothes, and takes ages to render, just like the new strand-based hair system.
Not to mention the new Poser 5 standard models, Don and Judy. Don is REALLY nice compared to the old Poser dork, but Judy is terrible. She has absolutely no body morphs unless you count her boob size and the 10+ morphs for her vagina!!! But maybe that reflects the needs of most users :)
The only new feature I've ended up using - and LOVING - is the materials room where you can set up how all the surfaces will render. The new cartoon lighting node is immensely helpful for the Shadowplay art style. Instead of coloring everything by hand, I just have Poser do a flat-color render, which I combine with a sketch style render in Photoshop.
But no matter how nice the renders look, animation is where the true test is. I never trust Poser art for games until I see it moving. When I first started out working on the Shadowplay art style, I focused on detailed textured and tons of morphs. But what I've come to realize is that none of this matters. The true tool of characterization and individualization is body language. And that's where many Poser made games fail (the Curse of the Jade Sphinx and By the Sword demos both show examples of stiff and generic animation).
Although Poser has a fine walk animation designer and some nice pre-made poses, the only real solution is to study your own movement and animate as if you were doing classic animation. Poser does help by smoothing out motion and creating in-between-frames. But there are no short cuts in good animation.
It's true that trying to use Poser for characters and animation in AGS takes some careful work, if you want to make it look realistic. Since I'm very picky anyway, I spend a lot of time perfecting animations. The solution I came up with, actually, was to avoid animations as much as possible and just have still pictures with dramatic effects and implied action.
Ultimately, I think if you're a capable artist, your best bet is still to hand-draw your characters. The only reason I'm using Poser is because I'm not very good at drawing things from scratch.
Poser shouldn't be that bad if (talented) people can do characters like those.... Well, even Steven Stahlberg doesn't denigrate (is that an english word?) Poser as he himself has seen worthwhile art made with Poser...
From my own experience with Poser - I haven't been able to do ANYTHING with it even having it for almost a year, so I simpathise with LGM, although I am in a deeper hole than he is... - so I'm doubly awed by Igor's work specially considering that he's only PLAYING with it...
Anyway, Igor's talent is no surprise!
Electric hare's work is awesome too!
BTW, I didn 't get to see Migs's...
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/ebot.jpg)
N3TGraph - Yep, it'll be an adventure game (are there any other kind? ;))
Igor - It's certainly possible to build your own figures for use in Poser , it just isn't all that easy. I built this robot guy as a static figure using Amapi, and with any luck a rash volunteer will have turned it into a poseable figure by the weekend (cheers Jim). I don't have the know-how myself, although apparently I could learn from this book:
'Secrets of Character Creation with Poser 5' by B.L.Render
Despite the title, the bulk of the info is supposed to be good for Poser 3 & 4 too. It's available from Amazon.
I think one of the reasons for Poser's success is that it sets out to do one thing, and for the most part it does it well. I've just bought Carrara Studio, which claims to be the 'complete, accessible and productive 3D solution', and has a 600 page manual to prove it!
Learning how to use one app is starting to feel like learning 3 or 4 apps simultaneously.
- Graham
PS - cheers to Neole for the image upload space, much appreciated.
Nice work with that robot!!!!
It's doubly effective since it is (at least, it looks) simple but it conveys all the "right" things - the expression, the pose, all very well done ...
Great, really!!!! - simple modelling, great effect!!!
And thanks for the advice on the Poser book-
Fantastic work Electric_Hare!