Shiny colouring - Main Character Revisited.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

This is a quick edit but maybe you'll see where I'm going here.

1.  Lightened face skin tones to make more detail visible and rounded face for a more feminine look.

2.  Arched eyes slightly and merged the eyebrow directly over the eyes.

3.  Widened upper thighs somewhat and gave her a rear in the side view.

4.  Adjusted angle pose from leaning forward too much to a more upright position.

5.  Gave her a crotch.  I've found this to be a very useful (and easy) way to distinguish males and females.  The v-shape in particular (not to be crude) along with darkening it (instead of highlighting it as though it protrudes) helps simulate that there's no package there, if you get me.  The wide upper thighs also help here.





Things that could use improvement:

1.  The angle pose is still too wooden.  Static poses are okay but they really don't 'say' much about a character.  Most people don't naturally stand at attention, so when we view characters in a game we tend to find rigid poses to be awkward.

2.  Breast level is still too high.  Remember that a woman's breasts naturally hang down a bit and then curve up into the armpits.  As they stand now, the breasts are beginning pretty much at armpit level.  Have a look at some nude women in art poses on the net.  Not only is it refreshing, it's also irreplaceable for mapping out female anatomy and getting it right.  Even the great cartoon artists understand proper anatomy so they can bend the rules!

Hopefully this helps!

[ThreeOhFour]

Wow! Fantastic edit, ProgZ. Thanks - I'd best have another shot at her .

Ps, the "hair" is meant to be a sort of leather cap that she's wearing, with chin straps hanging loose... does it look too much like hair?

[Pesty]

I really, really loved the character sprite before all these edits started and now I don't like it as much. I think it doesn't matter that she was androgynous, and if you want people to know she's a girl, use the context in the game, don't change the sprite. I think it was girly enough to work.

Also, I absolutely love everything you've posted in this thread, especially the palette, and will play this game immediately when it is finished.

[ThreeOhFour]

Thanks Pesty.

I like the original version, but I am going to try more edits - I would rather spend a couple of extra hours now trying to adjust it than getting a week down the road from when the game is released and thinking "I could have done this character so much better - it would have only taken me an extra few hours" and regretting it.

If I fail - I can always return to the original.

Pleased to hear that you'll play the game - it's been a little labour of love for me so far .

[mouthuvmine]

I can't stay out of this thread! Everytime I go to the forum home, there's a new post. While I have nothing to add as far as C&C, I felt the need to commend what's going on in here. It's amazing. A good volley of helpful insights matched with frequent updates and progress. I cannot WAIT for this game.

[ThreeOhFour]

I can't stay out either . Seriously, I really do appreciate everyone that has given me advice so far and know that I've learnt loads and loads this past week. I've got at least one more thing I feel is important to bring up when (if) I get this main character sprite how I want it (or give up and return to the original) so keep checking - you might be able to provide some insights on my next questions.

Now, after focusing on scripting the game for a couple of hours to get my mind off pixels, and feeling ready to get working on this edit, I compared this to ProgZ's edits and - feeling that the torso was really holding me back - decided to start from scratch.

Now, I did still use other elements of my previous sprites - I'd say this is about half edit, half completely new. I was confident (stubborn ) that the face on my last version was a good face, but that the shading was holding it back, so I've edited the shading there. I can't honestly see this sprite working with any other eyes - I find them too darn cute! The torso I redid completely, as with the arms - I felt there were too many things wrong for me to try and edit it and that a fresh start would benefit me here. The legs are based much on ProgZmax's last edit - especially around the groin - I feel that the shape of the legs themselves can still do with some editing. Overall, I am quite pleased with this, but if it can be improved, let me know. If, once again, I've not made an improvement over the original, let me know as well.



Your comments, suggestions and edits are, as always, very much appreciated.

EDIT:

Have a look at some nude women in art poses on the net.  Not only is it refreshing...

Forgot to mention. This made me laugh.

EDIT 2:

Just for the sake of having explored some more options, some more versions. Original on left. Only small changes, but at this res one pixel makes all the difference.



I know that it seems like it's taking me forever to get this, and I'm being stubborn about changing how the character looks too drastically... I just feel this look is closer to what is right for her. ProgZmax - I really appreciate the paintovers you've been doing, and they show a number of different styles, all of which I'm interested in - and certainly I've learnt things from them, especially the legs from the last edit. I don't want it to seem like I don't appreciate your edits, I feel I should mention, because I do, I just have an image in my head of how this character should look, and am trying to work towards that. My apologies if it seems I am being overly stubborn here...

Sorry for the lots of text, and thanks for the help once again, all.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

There's nothing wrong with knowing internally how you want a character to look, and I think your last edit looks fine.  The face looks feminine and helps sell the character.

[MrColossal]

hey Ben, I've been following this thread and I just wanted to throw a monkey wrench into the works!

I did not know that the character was supposed to be immediately female. I thought she was an undead creature.



That's the face I see when I look at a majority of these faces. A skull face with long incisors poking down.

Maybe make the line under her mouth the lighter...darker green? or just remove the under the lip shadow and use the midtone green in there.

[ThreeOhFour]

ProgZmax - thanks, I'm confident this character is getting close to perfect now - perfect for my current ability, anyway.

MrColossal - I feel that you haven't really thrown a spanner in the works, but instead pointed out something I would never have seen in the image itself. Very interesting that I never saw that when I drew it. Can I assume that if I go with something like the 4th sprite in the row I'd be pretty safe? I have to say, nice pic, by the way - I like the dots on the hat and the cape.

I'm concious that I shouldn't focus on too many things at once here, but if I don't bring this up now I feel it may get left behind and not be implemented into the game as well as it could/should be.

I've been going through and listing the animations I want to put in the game - whether puzzle related or otherwise - and I'd like some advice on putting more "character" into character animations.

First an example I'm not happy with - fishing boy fiddles with his line and yawns.



The fisher boy's idle animation - with frames that will also be used in a cutscene. I'm aware that the arm needs speeding up, and that the right arm's sleeve needs adjusting.

Now for one I'm happier with (doesn't mean I won't tweak it) - This is the game's narrator opening his book ready to read and taking a deep breath ready to begin reading to us. Didn't put in talk frames because I want to adjust them.



The reason I like this one is because of the deep breath. I feel it adds personality to the character. With the fisher boy, I feel that there is a bit of personality missing.

Does anyone have any tips on adding a bit of personality to a character's animation? I've got quite a few I want to do, some I can think of how to give them personality, and some I cannot (and some I'm dreading trying to draw based on the difficulty of the frames that will show what I want them to).

Cheers

[MashPotato]

Very nice sprites, and I like the bright colours you're using
I did a slight edit (I hope you're not sick of paintovers yet )
  2x
I changed very few pixels on the face, but the general idea was to make the eyebrows less heavy and the lips a little more full.  Since she's smiling in some of your alternate version, she's smiling here too
I did a little editing on the chest too, as the shines made it look a bit as though her breasts were going a bit upward at the sides.

The new animations are spiffy .  If you're trying to give the fishing boy a bit more personality, since he looks bored perhaps let his head loll a bit to one side (I know my head suddenly feels heavier when I'm bored ), and perhaps the arm holding the rod could be less rigid.

Keep up the good work!


EDIT: and just as an added note, don't be afraid to break the black outlines sometimes, if it fits
EDIT #2: woah, smiley overload!

[ThreeOhFour]

Thanks, MashPotato - the edits are cool, and no, I'm not sick of them yet - particularly the breasts, thanks for that. The face is something I'm going to leave for a little while, and perhaps come back to with a fresh head.

Thanks for the tips on the fishing boy - I'll see what I can do.

Nice to see someone smiling .

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

One thing I do know very well is how to execute animations, and the one thing I tell people over and over is that less is more, meaning that you should always try and keep your frame count low when possible and show the most amount of animation in each frame.  I made an edit that cuts the frame count for this animation almost in half and shows a wider amount of animation overall.

1.  Shortened his upper leg a few pixels, though it could do with more (or longer lower legs).
2.  Added some turning when he reaches for the fishing pole.






You do not need a lot of frames to please the eye, remember that.  Try to do more with each frame than just subtle movements, because the quicker you master how to make good animations with a few frames the easier it will be to make more detailed ones.  Exaggeration is key with animations, and a good example is how I did his exhale, which is 6 frames.  You might also have him kick his feet occasionally, just to get some lower body movement.

[ThreeOhFour]

ProgZ - absolutely excellent! I cannot believe how awesome that exhale is. I love the little bit of hair flying out... this is fantastic!

Thankyou, thankyou!

EDIT: While on the topic of animation, I'd like to bring up the following little point for advice/comment.

When making the plane land, I didn't want it to look like a cardboard cutout dropping down - I wanted it to look like a plane. What I attempted to do was to adjust the perspective of the plane as it sank to the ground, meaning I have 5 different sprites for the plane. Animated, it looks as though there is a slight change in perspective, like so:



I'm not sure if there is a common technique for this sort of thing - I did it as I was feeling somewhat experimental and enjoying trying some new things.

I thought this should do the trick, but when putting the animation in place, I feel the effect was lost completely:



The only way I can even see that I tried this effect is by looking at the tail fin on the left, which appears to get longer as the plane going down. The shadow is just for demonstration sake.

Does this look fine, or have I once again been too subtle with my animation? I probably will not redo this scene, as it was quite labor intensive and time consuming, but I'd love to know for future endeavours of a similar nature.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I think it looks great!  The only problem is how you handled the shadow sliding into place like that.  It wouldn't do that unless the ship was moving horizontally over the surface and would instead (for large objects) start large at a set position and decrease in size but get darker the closer the ship came.  The animation itself looks like a ship in flight, which you might be able to use for a static space scene (if you remove the landing gear). 

[ThreeOhFour]

That's an interesting idea, with the spaceship looking like it is flying in space. I might have to steal it and put it in that game - thanks  . I can see it looking a little comedic, like a cartoon car down a bumpy road, but I want that sort of thing, so that's great!

I wasn't sure about the shadow - I was trying to take the position of the sun into account - I did plan to try the shadow directly underneath, getting smaller as the plane dropped.

I am relieved that the animation is useful to me - I thought I might have wasted my time for a while there.

[paolo]

When making the plane land, I didn't want it to look like a cardboard cutout dropping down [snip]

I thought this should do the trick, but when putting the animation in place, I feel the effect was lost completely [snip]

Ben, I think this is fine. The fact that you can't see it means that it works. If the person playing this looked at the spaceship landing and thought, "There's something funny about that animation... it looks wrong," then that would be cause for concern, but the fact it doesn't attract attention means it has been done right. I don't know if I've explained that very well - do you get what I mean?

EDIT: I disagree with ProgZMax about the size and movement of the shadow. The shadow would start off small and increase in size only if the light source were overhead and not very far away, but it is neither of these - it is behind the ship and very far away. Shadows cast by a light source at infinity - which we can consider the sun to be - do not change size as the object moves because the rays striking the object are parallel. So I think the way Ben has done it is correct, although I think the shadow should be closer to the viewer, judging by the angle to the sun.

EDIT (again): Actually, if the light source were close, the shadow would start of large and diffuse, and then get smaller and sharper as the ship moved in to land. Cartoons often draw the shadow small and getting larger because this is how the umbra changes - they don't bother to draw the penumbra.

[Khris]

Damn nice!

About the ship landing:
You could use the frames to make the perspective change slowly during the drop. Start with the frame where the cockpit is all the way up, then gradually change it. And you could decrease the (drop) speed a bit.

Great work, looking forward to the game!

[ThreeOhFour]

Paul - Yes, I agree, it'd probably stand out more if I hadn't done it. I think it might have been a case of me being excited to test out the technique and it not looking overly 3d. The shadow is something I plan to play around with a bit.

KhrisMUC - I'm going to decrease the drop speed, yeah, it looks really quite jerky at the moment, and I want to accentuate the slowdown before landing a bit better. I have actually used these frames in the drop to change perspective - unless I misunderstood your post - which means you didn't notice it either . Oh well - it was fun to try, and the whole flying in space thing gives me another use for the animation as well. Thanks for your nice comment .

[stajp]

I'm a complete newbie, but can I suggest to slow down descend a lot (almost hovering) just before landing? In vertical landing craft must use thrusters considerably in the final approach to slow down to prevent possible stresses on landing gear.

BUT:
As I can see you don't have thrusters, so you can easily skip my suggestion. 

[Snarky]

I think you're right, Ben. The effect is pretty much lost in the downwards movement. Given that you have the animation, maybe you could use it for the touchdown, so it seems as if it lands first on the back legs, and then drops down the nose? (You might want to put the front leg and back legs on different planes for this to look perfect.) That might work well with the hover moment stajp suggested.

The other thing I think would help the landing is some bounce as the shock-absorbing legs re-extend. Just a one- or two-pixel downward movement, adding another "swing" to the oscillation.

It looks great, by the way!