I have been trying to do this Sketch of these stairs and I cant really think of how to do the Perspective of it. :(
Perspective is where I always fail. please help with this background. :)
(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9449/sketchofstairs1.gif) (http://img521.imageshack.us/i/sketchofstairs1.gif/)
Also just to say I don't usually sketch my pictures first but This one needed special perspective I could not do.
Here's a very fast drawn example.
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q53/JustLedZep/sketchofstairs1.png)
Quick paintover
(http://graphics.ucsd.edu/courses/rendering/2005/wjainek/styles/images/relativity.jpg)
However, seriously: this (http://hoon.deviantart.com/art/New-perspective-on-perspective-19043867) tutorial seems fairly decent for what you are trying to do.
Quote from: Al_Ninio on Tue 09/03/2010 00:55:26
Quick paintover
How many perspective points does that have... ;D
3 ;D
OK Al_Ninio I will check it out. I am not really a artist. I am actually a really bad artist. But I am trying I practice a lot.
Thanks
Quote from: Dualnames on Mon 08/03/2010 20:34:52
Here's a very fast drawn example.
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q53/JustLedZep/sketchofstairs1.png)
wait, I think they're supposed to be going down no??
Danman, could you help us out here?
Sorry I could not see the Pictures so I could not see the examples.
And ahaha Al_Ninio Funny that is too simple. But looks as good as my perspective
Here is maybe a better sample (http://i46.tinypic.com/2h2h4e1.png)
But meant to go down stairs. :-[ . I am a not at all a very good sketch artist.
Is the white portion of the new image lower (left-hand staircase going up) or higher (left-hand staircase going down) than the maroon portion?
I'm still not sure what I'm looking at here..
Just a quick Google Image search turned up some relevant images:
Looking down stairs (http://renovationism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/stairs_40_looking_down_full.jpg)
Looking up stairs (http://www.stoogeworld.com/_Videography/stoogesteps2.jpg)
If you're looking down a set of stairs you're only going to see the tops of each step. If you're looking up a set of stairs then you're going to see the tops and the fronts of each step. Either way the top of each step will get progressively smaller the further from away from your position the step is.
Actually they are both going down stairs. Just the left is to like the 3rd floor... then the right is to the 2nd.
This is why I am asking for help. I really cant do perspective but I am just reading Al_Ninio tutorial he gave me is kinda giving me an idea. I will try again just now.
Edit: Also the white area is the lower level.
Danman, google sketchup is your friend. Download it, make your bg in basic 3D and use that as a base to draw over.
@Chicky I would but I think 3d looks a bit too perfect. :P . Maybe I will do that if all else fails ;D
Too perfect? Pah, you're just lazy. Admit it, LAZY...
Anyway, i made this after seeing your silly excuse about perfection.
(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9449/sketchofstairs1.gif)
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/stupid3d.gif)
5 minutes, uploading it took longer than making it. This way you don't have to start a thread whenever you get stuck on perspective.
Not lazy. 3d is lazy. 2d is harder to me at least :P . I got 3d programs like Maya 9. But just think 2d has character ;) . They didn't use 3d 20 years ago. Unless they were in engineering so I wont either. ;D
They didn't use PCs 50 ago. I think you should make a game using punch-cards. PCs are so lazy.
Quote from: Ali on Tue 09/03/2010 17:24:21
They didn't use PCs 50 ago. I think you should make a game using punch-cards. PCs are so lazy.
Stop stealing my ideas! ...back to the drawing board, AGAIN.
---------------------------------------------------
Seriously though Danny Boy, you don't have to USE the images from a 3D program as your background but you CAN use them as inspiration/models for the work that you create. I'm sure you aspire to look like George Clooney when you're in your 50s... Will you? No. Can you use him as the inspiration for your distinguished, gentlemanly, aged self? Absolutely! But, you will still be uniquely yourself.
I could never find my way around google sketchup but I am somehow capable of using the 3D effects in photoshop decent enough to get basic perspective visuals accurate. Sketchup is a good free program, however, which when learned has the capability to simulate architecture, furniture people scaling and so forth so it might (AT LEAST) be worth downloading it and trying to draw some inspiration from it...
Yeah Dan. 5 trillion years ago human beings didn't exist either. What do you think the dominant lifeforms back then did for fun? I bet it didn't involve being human. So why don't you stop being so lazy and stop existing already!!
[/sarcasm]
If the white area is the lowest level then both staircases, from the POV at the bottom of the image, are going up not down. That is what I was asking.
We are seeing the image as if we were standing in the white area looking at the stair cases. If they are both going down, relative to our POV, then we must logically be on the top floor. If one is going down and one is going up we must be on a level other than the lowest level or top level. If they are both going up then we must be on the lowest level.
If the right-hand staircase is going down, relative to our POV, then it must connect to the white area at the bottom, which it does not. Logically we must then assume the staircase on the right is going up relative to our POV.
The left-hand staircase however, connects to both the white area at the bottom and the maroon area. This creates the ambiguity as to whether it is going up or down relative to our position. You said that the white area is the lowest level. Therefore the left-hand staircase must be going up relative to our POV.
If the white area is the lowest level then the right-hand staircase, which we already determined must be going upward, must also connect to the white area.
Using a 3D modeling program to determine perspective is no more lazy than going and looking at an actual stairwell.
If you're painting over the 3D rendering then that would be no more lazy than using a sheet of tracing paper over a photograph.
It's not lazy, it's using available tools to meet the ends you seek.
I meant that in like the best 2d games I ever played. Was in 1990's and they used 2d graphics.
not 3d.
You aren't being told to convert to using 3D graphics in your game. You were advised that using a 3D modeling program will help you visualize the perspective you need.
Continue doing your 2D graphics, but if you need help with perspective, what's the harm in using a 3D program just to see what it should look like?
Quote from: Danman on Tue 09/03/2010 18:04:35
I meant that in like the best 2d games I ever played. Was in 1990's and they used 2d graphics.
not 3d.
I agree with monkey about using 3d as reference, but it's also true that plenty of the 2D classics used 3D graphics where they were needed. There were 3D elements in Full Throttle, Gabriel Knight: The Sins of the Fathers, The Curse of Monkey Island, Broken Sword, Space Quest 6 and more besides.
OK I will get Google sketchbook to see. This my honest thing about 2d games. What makes them great to me is they are Imperfect. But maybe you guys are right just to give me an idea what the perspective should look like.
I just like to do 2d games the old fashion way.
Anyway for now I made a quick perspective adjustment and least explained which floor is which.
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.db6b236fc1.png) (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?db6b236fc1.png)
Hope this one makes more sense
[offtopic]
That FreeImageHosting.net is taking forever to load on my computer..is there a reason you can't use ImageShack or PhotoBucket instead??
[/offtopic]
Okay, that's kind of the impression I got as to what you meant. The POV is at the top level, not the bottom level, and both staircases are heading down toward the lowest level.
This goes back to what I was saying. If you don't like using 3D as a reference then don't. Use Google Images. Go and look at a real stair case. Using a reference is something that I can definitely assure you they would have done in the '90s if they were unsure about something.
Here's the image I already linked you to in my previous post:
(http://renovationism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/stairs_40_looking_down_full.jpg)
As you can see, the only portion of each step you can see is the very top. Therefore the coloration of each step is nearly identical. The step at the top (nearest to the third floor) is the widest, and as you go towards the second floor each step gets progressively smaller.
This is how you create perspective. If all your steps are the exact same size then there's absolutely no perspective in your image.
Your perspective doesn't have to be "perfect" but if you want someone to look at the image and understand what they are seeing then there should be some concept of perspective at least.
Also the angles between your image and the image I am showing you are completely different, so your perspective will be different too. But it should give you some idea of what you're doing wrong.
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5433/stairsdown.png) (http://img86.imageshack.us/i/stairsdown.png/)
OK I attempted to copy the perspective of that pic and this is what I got. But for my background I think it would work. ;)
Alright I will try do this for my background. Thanks a lot everyone least got an idea now. ;D
Danman, from the perspective you want to use the stairs going down aren't visible at all. (Unless the steps are very far apart.)
(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/1943/expldm1.png)
I have used ramps instead of stairs but that doesn't matter; if the top of the ramp isn't visible, so aren't any steps apart from the top one.
So to make them visible I had to look down a good deal, changing this almost into a top-down view.
This won't look good with straight characters.
If you want to show the main floor and the landing, maybe switch to a different POV?
(http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/9088/expldm2.png) (http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/9088/expldm2.png) (http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5074/expldm3.png) (http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5074/expldm3.png)
Click to see big version
Yea I did realize that In the latest pic I didn't show the 2nd stairs or the whole landing.
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.db6b236fc1.png) (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?db6b236fc1.png)
But I have to say I did have a stupid first drawing. But your 3d model is Exactly how it meant to look.
Thanks though Khris given me a better idea in the perspective.
You might want to consider the point of view of the bg. In terms of functionality, it's not really a good background. There's a lot of space you can't even see but are still walkable. Most of the time the guy would just go down invisible stairs. It's your own benefit to have the stairs going down towards the camera or sideways. Think about it.
I think I got it.
(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/4691/perspective.png) (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/perspective.png/)
Just to say this is still in the sketch stage got a lot more details to add. ;D
Quote from: Danman on Tue 09/03/2010 19:41:50
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/5433/stairsdown.png) (http://img86.imageshack.us/i/stairsdown.png/)
OK I attempted to copy the perspective of that pic and this is what I got. But for my background I think it would work. ;)
Alright I will try do this for my background. Thanks a lot everyone least got an idea now. ;D
I can't see any of your recent images but
this is a massive improvement.
*edit- apparently i can see them now, good job with the latest one. Remember to choose your colours wisely and stick with a very simple shading style.
Dan, the image on my second post (I'm not quoting it here, in purpose) show's how to draw stairs. It's quite easy if you manage to get into its technique. My first stair attempt took me 2 hours straight, in order to get it right. I'll make a tutorial on how to, if you feel like it. :D
Actually after reading This tutorial (http://hoon.deviantart.com/art/New-perspective-on-perspective-19043867) I kinda had a better idea.
Dualnames: I did at first try your style but could not really from the perspective of these stairs going down. Maybe you should write a tutorial could help me and everyone else in a few parts. ;) in doing stairs.
Also that picture I did was in paint and I don't usually use paint so it looks are a bit bad.
Chicky: One thing I spend more time on then anything is choosing the best colors and my shading is pretty pathetic too.
Here done another improvement. This is just to ask if the perspective is good or better.
OK like the pictures. Are they at bad angles. I don't really want it to look perfect but don't want it to look
wrong.
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/a5c7d1adce.png) (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)
You haven't really changed the perspective, just bent it to fit a little more. And, of all the nice perspective suggestions Kris gave you, you've chosen the one that won't work for traditional adventure game characters.
If you want to keep that angle I'd suggest changing that front-facing wall next to the stairway into a railing instead so you can see a larger portion of the landing as well as the second stairway.
markbilly:I think this is how the background will look. Cause I am sure I can make it work with my character and scaling.
And Monkey: What I am going to do that will be even better is that. i am going to make another background from the perspective from the 2nd floor.
Quote from: Danman on Thu 11/03/2010 14:31:16
Cause I am sure I can make it work with my character and scaling.
Really? You honestly believe that?
Consider someone walking on the stairs;
Steps are roughly the size of a foot,
A man 6 ft tall would then be somewhere around the height of the railing.
But this is a railing, so when he's next to that, he will need to be twice that height.
If it isn't a railing, but a wall then why is the ceiling so ridiculously high? And why doesn't the wall reach the ceiling?
Then when he walks over to the table on the right (unless, perhaps, it's a coffee table/ footstool of some kind?) he will be so small that he will be useless as an interact-able character.
Furthermore, at that rate he will have vanished by the time he reaches the window, just how big is this house?
So good luck with your scaling.
Now, Room Design:
I realise this isn't finished, but there currently seems to be one thing to do in this room... walk down the stairs. The hallway-thing might work if you could use the landing, but you completely covered it with a railing, which makes me wonder why it needs to be there.
It is therefore redundant to have such a long walk to get to a solitary hotspot. Also, the stairs move away from you. That doesn't work. Why use this perspective? The paintings? Can't they be on the other wall?
QuoteNot lazy. 3d is lazy. 2d is harder to me at least . I got 3d programs like Maya 9. But just think 2d has character . They didn't use 3d 20 years ago. Unless they were in engineering so I wont either.
Perhaps professional games in the 80's and early 90's weren't all done in 3D, what they did use though was a little thing called
professional artists.
Using 3D as an amateur game developer is not lazy, not cheating, or anything else along those lines. It may make it easier for you, but this is a good thing. It means you will have backgrounds which are instantly correct perspective-wise, and you can choose whatever angle you want before painting over.
Correct perspective makes things a lot easier for the player, leading to a more enjoyable playing experience, and isn't that the point of making the game in the first place?
Now I may be coming across somewhat stern in this post, but the solutions to all the problems I mentioned are already posted in this thread.
OK I think you guys are right then scaling is not going to work. I will just skip the walking down the stairs and just change it to the other room I have done now.
The honest thing about the 3D thing is I have used 3d graphics a lot in the past couple years and bored of doing 3d. Want to just do 2d.( Which I am not good at either.) ;)
This room is copy of a real room so cant really change the design ::) . This is from the other perspective I have done now.
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/2c5af0a373.png) (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)
Also I did change the Table bigger. I have done a few improvements. But I am not going to bother uploading it. :P
Thanks everyone for your advice. Helped me improve it a lot. This is brilliant for me I am happy with it. The player can at least make sense backgrounds ;D
.
So..., the right stairway starts at the base of the small wall but is in front of it...?
I can't make heads or tails of that background. It looks like a really badly done optical illusion. Sorry :)
Very M.C Escher.
I guess you kinda right. Using like 7-8 colors is a bit hard makes it look like a optical illusion. I will work on it make it at least look like a good optical illusion. Art is not my strong point at all that is why I like.. live in the critic lounge ;) . Trust me in real life I cant even draw a stick man ;D
Go out and meet some girls. On the whole, they are pretty good artists, Calin notwithstanding.
Ah, I can see it now.
How about this:
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6094/expldm.png)
I just eyeballed this, but it looks about right. Except for the horribly deformed stairs on the left which still can't be seen if they are supposed to resemble the others even slightly.
Quote from: ddq on Thu 11/03/2010 23:18:09
Go out and meet some girls. On the whole, they are pretty good artists, Calin notwithstanding.
ddq: How can meeting girls help with art? That is a weird way to work. What do u say to a girl : Hi I need help with my game will you go out with me. ;D lol
That looks a lot better Khris. You been helping me a lot today. ;D . The stairs on the left was just the only way I could draw it.
I will most definitely use your version maybe edit it a bit. At this rate I think I should add you to the credits of my game :D
the left stairs shouldn appear at all
but khris version is good
I don't see the purpose of this room.
Buildings in adventure games aren't designed the same as ones in the real world, the principle of "it exists in the game world" is not enough for a place to be actually included in the game. For instance, if you are playing a game with many buildings in it, rarely will you be able to go into a building's bathroom, even though in the real world, it obviously has to be there. If you enter a fiend's apartment block, and he is the only person you need to see, then the entrance should take you straight to his apartment, and cut out the middle man.
Why not have the room on the right as the main room, and then when you walk over to the hallway, POP! you're at the bottom of the stairs.
It is fully implied that the player walked down the stairs by the fact that he walked over to the hallway where the only thing is stairs, especially with an Overhotspot label. The lower landing is completely pointless really.
Yea but I want to add it. Cause It gives me some space for ideas for puzzles and characters. This is the first time for me to do puzzles in my game too. This game is all in one building so I like to make the player have the choice to go anywhere in that building. So far I got 6 rooms including the 2 stairs backgrounds.
And 6 rooms to do puzzles is easier for me to think of puzzles. Otherwise I would agree most games don't show stairs.
Ricco: OK I will change the stairs to a better perspective. I think I just lower it a lot. To make it just visible
Edit: Scarab: Funny enough in my game you can go in the bathroom too.
Dan, you really shouldn't be able to see the stairs on the left hand side. They should be completely invisible, but the player should still know they are there. Perhaps you could have paintings on the wall that get lower to indicate the presence of stairs.
What you might want to do is look at SSH's Downhill Module (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=29235.0), in order to make the character walk downstairs facing away from the camera work.
However my main advice would be that you consider the functionality of backgrounds when you start drawing. Sketches, photos and 3D mockups can help you with that. Doing this might help you get a background that works without going back to the drawing board so often.
Indeed, and to reiterate a bit:
Google SketchUp is the ideal tool for that. It's really easy to learn, lightweight and free.
Quote from: Khris on Fri 12/03/2010 19:59:54
Indeed, and to reiterate a bit:
Google SketchUp is the ideal tool for that. It's really easy to learn, lightweight and free.
Yeah and gives nice clean and simple lines that you don't even have to trace over if you don't want, plus it's free if you don't mind using Print screen and don't need actual 3d models for something else (there are free better renderes as well but that'll make a bit more complicated).
Seriously you can learn to use it in 1 afternoon and they have about 20 short tutorials on their page that'll teach you everything you need to know (there is more but for painting over this is enough).
Use the screens, try the sprites, if they don't work turn the camera around a bit and when you are satisfied, you can't paint over it (or use them as they are if it suits your style. I tried to do it in sketchup and had that scene set up in like 15 minutes.
Yea I will try Google sketchup. One advantage about 3D is it is 100% accurate perspective wise.
@Ali I think this will be a problem about that plug in, I am using the newest beta. 3.2 RC 3. I don't think it is compatible.
but anyhow I think that the background will be the end of the game anyway. I put like a sign saying exit there now.
Maybe I will also do a painting there like you said.
Thanks I think you right I will make the stairs completely invisible.
Glad to hear that, Dan!
By the way, it's very easy to update SSH's module, I've explained how I got it working for me in the module's thread (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=29235.0).
OK I will play with the module and see what I can do. I don't think it will be necessary but I will do it anyway. Cause at that point at the stairs it changes the room to a question asking " Go home" or "Go back in".
But what I will do is if the player chooses "go home" then it will show her going down stairs part.
but anyway this is off topic cause this is the critic lounge.
Thanks though Ali for your help .
If you're so adverse to 3D then do what I do, draw the surfaces that will be "flat" to the viewer,use a red dot to mark your vanishing point and draw lines from your edges to the center, clipping the lines to leave the finished perspective:
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/9383/backgroundlayout2.png) (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/backgroundlayout2.png/)
Well I actually got Google Sketch up ( Which I will use for times like before I started this thread.)
But Usually I would just draw it like that. But thanks for describing your technique.
I still don't believe in using 3D always still. Cause then everybody's games would look the same ;) .
But I will use it at times I am desperate. :) But Thanks anyway Crazy ;D
I can feel my fingers going numb already, but well:
Quote from: Danman on Tue 23/03/2010 21:07:53But Usually I would just draw it like that.
That's exactly why we advised you to use SketchUp in the first place, buddy. ;)
It takes skill/practice to do that, and you simply didn't have it.
Also, consistent proportions and correct perspective are so abundant in the world outside the computer that we don't really notice that anymore but focus on other stuff like textures, details, overall style, etc.
So no, not all games will look the same if everyone who wants 3D does it properly.
Well I know what you saying Khris. But I just love to try do it the Old fashion way. But I will take your advice next time I am stuck. I agree I don't have it I suck at art. But I like to try at least. Also I try to draw to Improve my art and perspective. Art is a thing I can think on how to do to the pixel. But when I try it just falls apart.
Anyway thanks Khris. I will use Sketchup when I next have any perspective problem.
Edit: Also by what I mean all games 3d will look the same. Some well many games Look good even with bad perspective. Just makes it the games art style. Anyway you dont have to tell me that I am wrong I know what your point is 3D is a good tool. For People that cant draw like me. ;D
Quote from: Danman on Tue 23/03/2010 21:54:06
Edit: Also by what I mean all games 3d will look the same. Some well many games Look good even with bad perspective. Just makes it the games art style. Anyway you dont have to tell me that I am wrong I know what your point is 3D is a good tool. For People that cant draw like me. ;D
There is a difference between a bad perspective and stylized perspective (not the right word though :P ), I mean you might say Monkey Isle 3 has bad perspective, but it's just a style of drawing, the perspective is correct.
I mean Grim fandango and stuff like Still life are both prerendered 3d backgrounds with 3d characters, but you wouldn't say they look the same.
Well that is what I meant just couldn't find the wording :P. stylized perspective is probably a bit better.