As Farlander stated recently, there might actually be room for a beginners' critics lounge.
Why?
Lately people have tended to publish material seemingly not given more than two minutes of work. The lounge has become a tool that people use as a shortcut around personal experimenting, around the method of trial-and-error.
Important
I know that a lot of humanitarians are just about to post a reply with the word "elitism" in it. Just note that I am mainly getting at how little energy people seem put in their creations; not necessarily how skilled they are.
You can easily see by a picture if the artist did a sincere attempt to do something good, even if he/she isn't very good an artist.
Why, again?
I fear that the lack of seriousity discourages people who really want to learn and share their knowledge to even be associated to the critics lounge.
As the critics lounge is now the second biggest forum, it is well justified to be split.
The big question; who will decide which forum is appropriate?
Nobody. And there will be no moving of threads between the two forums.
Nobody will say "this piece does not belong here". However, the criticism will be much harsher.
Just like with the beginners' techincal, the beginners' forum will be a sanctuary from judgemental attitude. No piece of art can be too bad, simply put.
The regular forum will be for people who have put down a lot of time and energy in their creations, and who are truly interested in learning how to be better, who can accept sometimes harsh criticism and a demanding audience.
The regular forum is for people with a clear purpose and aim (the song is about to be recorded for a demo album, the essay is about to be published somewhere, the background is meant for a game in production) and who can recieve feedback in the perspective of this purpose; "that background is good, but doesn't go with the style of your game" etc.
The regular forum will provide more demanding criticism. There could be open discussions regarding techniques, genres and disciplines. There could be more tutor-based teaching, more long-term projects.
Eventually, it might attract more serious artists/musicians/writers, maybe even from outside.
The other forum will be for people with a more casual attitude; people who want to see if their creations can be used for anything at all; if a piece of art looks promising, and who don't care very much about lengthy discussions, preferably just a re-make by a better artist.
The feedback will be less extensive, less technical.
Preferably, your very first attempt in a certain field will end up here.
A second alternative
Another way of bringing more order into this would be to have one individual art-forum, and one for music/writing.
This will have two good effects:
1. More musicians and writers might be encouraged to share their creations
2. More room will be given to the art-threads, which will survive longer and thus be given more attention and perhaps more extensive discussions.
However, it will not at all effect the quaility of the publications.
To sum up:
My goal is to create a forum that simply gives a more serious impression. That's basically all.
Please tell me your opinions. I may be addressing a situation that nobody else has considered a problem, or a problem that can't be solved without somebody shouting elitism.
The problem is, it's not what the piece of work is that decides whether it gets strong, detailed criticism - it's who's giving that constructive criticism.
Not too sure on a second forum, I'd have nothing against it, I reckon personally this one forum is fine. There's an ample mixture of different talents and it's by far easier checking each thread out. Having a beginners critics lounge might mean some people won't visit it, because they'd rather see the more detailed/technical critic lounge etc.
This forum (critics lounge, as is) seems to be fine in respects to keeping on topic and having good topics within. There never seems to be much trouble. Splitting the forum sounds more like a personal preference than a necessity to me.
But alas, I'll be the only one who thinks this :p
i would like to see a seperate forum. but it may offend some people. And surley it would be kinda evil moving a tread to the begginers art forum?
-OSC
I like the idea, but do you think it would work?
Quote from: OSC on Tue 20/04/2004 21:17:15
And surley it would be kinda evil moving a tread to the begginers art forum?
But he said threads wouldn't be moved from one to the other.
I personally think this is a good idea.. If there's someone who spent a long time on a piece of work and posts it for critiscism, I think they deserve more attention away from the zillions of "Mah first BG!" posts that consist of dodgy lines, some PS standard textures, and Bryce and Poser primitives that clog the front page. Basic beginner stuff. (No offense to you Bryce and Poser users, I know some amazing stuff can be produced with them.)
I personally hate this, as several of my honest to goodness, brutally hard-worked on projects get pushed down onto the next page, where no-one ever looks, thus getting hardly any replies.
So I am most definitely in favor of a beginner's and regular critics longue. Bring it on, I say!
(Sorry if I seem a bit cranky, but I've been having some troubles today)
OSC, Andail stated that threads would not be moved. If they were, I could see where it would cause a ruckuss. I, personally, am not sure how I would fit in if the forums were split. I am not currently working on a game, but rather am working on the skills I would use in making a game.
I can see how it would be beneficial to weed out some of the underachieving the goes on, but I don't see a problem of epidemic proportion, either.
Rather, it seems as though the community itself does a satisfactory job of policing this problem themselves. Those that put a lot of effort into a drawing receive a lot of feedback. Those that do not have threads which tend to whither, die, and fade away.
My 2 cents.
I feel that the critics lounge is a pretty good forum as it is at the moment...Though I agree in some way with LGM...but on the other hand most posts seem to bleed to death as soon all the possible critique has been given and the pieces on which obviously lots of effort is put into seem to get all the attention they deserve...I myself tend to post more C&C than actualy posting a piece myself while others seem to do the opposite and post 3 rushed pieces in a few days....so as far as that goes it surely would be a good idea to split it up...or have more strict rules maybe ?
Just some thoughts...
edit:
Quote
I, personally, am not sure how I would fit in if the forums were split. I am not currently working on a game, but rather am working on the skills I would use in making a game.
Same here...not working on a game at the moment but feel C&C on my practicing is very usefull
Cheers!
kaaZ
Quote from: Penguinx on Tue 20/04/2004 21:49:04
Those that put a lot of effort into a drawing receive a lot of feedback. Those that do not have threads which tend to whither, die, and fade away.
I've put alot of effort into my Web Site, yet my post almost off the page w/out any new replies. Maybe I'm the only one this has happens to, but it's still quite annoying and unfair.
I think, at first, the new CL would overflow with everybody posting in there because nobody is going to want to admit their work isn't up to that level just yet.
After awhile I think the beginners would tend to shy away from the 'Advanced CL' once they see how "truthful" the critics will be in there. I personally prefer harsh critisism / honesty, it's how I improve.
Eventually it would even out.
A forum rule for the new lounge should be this:
1) No one line replies like, "Wow, that's really good!"
A Problem I can see ...
Some n00bies (I know I did when I first got here) get a feeling of 'Elitism' from some of the members who've been here longer. This might heighten that feeling a little.
Having said that, I now say, "go for it."
If it doesn't work out, we could just go back to one Critics Lounge.
I just remembered,
pixelation.swoo.net has a similar system as the one Andail is suggesting.. Yes, I know their fourm is specifically for art, but why couldn't we do the same?
Quote from: LilGryphMaster on Tue 20/04/2004 21:37:57
Quote from: OSC on Tue 20/04/2004 21:17:15
And surley it would be kinda evil moving a tread to the begginers art forum?
But he said threads wouldn't be moved from one to the other.
(Sorry if I seem a bit cranky, but I've been having some troubles today)
ok soo im lazy? i couldnt be bothered to read the entire post, is that such a big deal, as to two people have to post about it...
mann i gotta take a chill pill
-OSC
As someone guilty of using bog standard Bryce shapes :-[, I'm not wholly sure on this one. The easy crit of a beginners forum would be nice for people who are actually trying, but the harshness of a advanced group is definitely needed for any growth. There do seem to be a few posts asking people to draw there stuff for them though, which isn't right in a C&C forum.
edit: Possibly a designation for advanced users (like mod status, but harsh or advanced status) then their crit will carry more weight than normal. I don't know. Just an idea. Splitting in general I think would lead to not seeing everything that is being made.
The biggest problem I see is, if I were a beginner, I would have to hope that some of the elite users were spending time monitoring threads in the beginners forum if I wanted to gain some advanced insight into how I might improve.
I know, for one, I would likely end up monitoring both forums, because I like to help with paint-overs and the like for newbies. That's kind of a pain (for me, not necessarily for the community as a whole).
I agree with the idea... It has some problems, of course, one of the biggest I see is that some of the oldies/skilled/whatever-ye-wanna-call-them would not visit that forum... and it would be difficult to improve the skills of the newbies without "tutorization" of the "talented" <-- You know what I mean, don't take that as an offence...
But it musn't really be like that... Some of the artists could go to the "newbies tech forums" to show early art... Sometimes I know what to do to go on with a painting, but I don't know if go on following one way or another... I would really need the help of the "gurus" ( ;)), but I would feel strange introducing something in such an early state of developement... A lot of awesome art could be there just to help the artist to go on with a style or another... I'm sure you've been reluctant to make "polls" asking to go with a style or another... You'll be able to in this forum...
We could name this forum "first layer" or something... It would remove the "despective" feeling that some of you seem to see in it.
I think it's a good idea...
Actually... I feel odd when I must say "It's perfect, but..." about a first freehanded 6 colors backgrounds... :P
With this differenciation I could really say "It's good!" (for a newbie level) or "You can do it better" (for a "pro").
Why not instead of creating a new forum [which would need new moderators and a few months of hanging around for the current users to get used to let alone the new people that come] we just renovate the current critics lounge
A point I've made many times is that I hate 1 word replies or emoticons with bug eyes as an entire reply to someone asking for crit. It serves no purpose then to clog up a thread. So instead of making a new forum, crack down on the current one.
Maybe convince CJ to find a way to add a character limit that has to be passed before you can post [not a great idea but even if it's around for a month and then taken away it will encourage better posting habits]
More moderating of current threads to get rid of emoticon posts and "That looks gud." posts.
If we renovate this forum into a... not really less friendly place, but a more honest crit forum, people would hopefully look over their art one more time before posting because they know they're going to get honest crit. Obviously people shouldn't insult in their crit but it shouldn't be too sugar coated either.
Personally I can usually tell when someone is making an honest attempt and if they maybe did something awkward I'm not going to tell them off, I can realize that they are trying and adjust my crit.
I think another thing I'd like to encourage people to do is talk about their own art first. If you post a background don't just say "Wat do u think?!" Tell us how long it took or what it's for or what you were trying to achieve [I notice a lot of the better threads that involve more crit usually have the artist explaining their actions and why they did such and such and what they think they need help on]
Eric
I agree with Eric's last paragraph.
It's imperative to know what the purpose of the pic is and what kind of mood the artist is going for. It helps point them in the right direction.
However, I think the CLs main problem is the increasing number of threads that it is hard to keep up sometimes.
I don't think it's necessary to start a thread for every new piece of art you draw. Maybe there should only be one thread allowed per project and/or artist.
That's actually a good idea. A thread for each artist/project. Kinda like what Neole did.. That would save alot of space.
And we should really clean all the old threads back at page 7 and beyond
1 thread/artist is a great idea. I also like Eric's character limit idea.. The Pixelation forum (which LGM mentioned) has a 100 character limit on their forums, and it seems to cut down a bit on stupid posts. At least it would encourage people to put some thought into what they say.. Or it would inspire them to write even more crap to get around the limit. Hmmmm
/me looks for thoughtfully stroking goattee smiley
Yeah, the character limit is a good idea. 100 characters isnt that hard to reach, so maybe 150? But personally, I dont see a major issue. Back when the gen gen section was at a high we were back into the second page with same day topics. I dont see a lot of that happening here. Maybe instead of a beginners art, why not a beginners section?
Beginners questions, art, games, progressed games? That would make thinks more organized by skill level and I dont think beginners will refuse. Beginners know they are beginners, and I dont think thats really discrimanation.
Hmm, I can't decide which idea I like better. Sure, I agree that there is a problem with the Critics lounge, but having a beginners forum might discourage certain users. Like as people said before, the issue of n00bs and elitism.
I actually like the idea of a separate forum for art and music etc. That would split the topics into better catagories...
But now that I think of it more, I think having a beginners critics forum is a good idea. It just needs to be implemented properly.
I say no to the split.
As I see it, Critics Lounge is here to improve the skills of people making AGS games, so that the AGS games you play are better. I think more beginners should post here. I'd like to see full games posted, critiqued, and improved before they make it to the games page.
I agree that a lot of posts recently have been backgrounds that look like the creator spent two minutes on it. I think the best way to handle this is to reiterate the advice in the "READ BEFORE POSTING" stickie and tell them to post only when they have gone as far as they can with a piece. Obviously it depends on the style, but maybe recommend 3-4 hours work minimum before posting?
The one thread per member seems like a good idea, but how is it going to be enforced?
As for replies, the old maxim "If you haven't got something bad to say, don't say anything" applies. :)
Steve
If your thread disappears off the front page, it's probably because no-one had anything to say about it. That's a good thing.
I think it should be sperate categories along the lines of "Game art" and "Misc. art" instead of "n00b" and "elite"
I think i like Eric's idea best. Not new forum, but enhanced old CL.
100 chars limit would be perfect i guess, as i must say i'm often guilty of short replys too. Usualy i don't really have enough time, so when i see some post that i like, i just leave a quick encouraging message- that is, if i honestly don't see any distracting faults. Chars limit would solve this very nicely (even if reply is compliment, you'll at least have to tell exactly why you like it).
I like the posting everything in one thread, my only question is what you would do about the eventual length of your thread? At a stopping place would you ask a mod to delete it and you start a new one? That would keep some clutter out, definitely.
Ooh, I think I'd have to go with Andail's original idea.
I think it can be disappointing for a new member to post their artwork and have it ripped apart by people with different goals.
For example, when evaluating a background, I know I consider things like amount of detail-per-depth, color forcing, etc. However, many new members don't care about these things, as they just want a decent-loooking functional background (and nothing wrong with that at all).
I know if I post a background in the forum I will get almost nothing constructive out of it. Most people post in reaction to the skill of the artist, not to the appearance of the work itself.
I don't care if people think something I draw is "good" or "bad". That doesn't help me at all. If someone can say "the colors of your distant objects have too much contrast", that is advice I can implement.
Likewise, beginners may not care about the same things I do, and they just want to know if their background is good, or what they can do to make it functional.
Don't you think it would be discouraging for a beginner to post something and get comments like "your inverse triangular compostion could be better accented through the use of truncated diagonals and negative space"?
A comment like that would be helpful to me, but overwhelming to others.
Maybe we could find a better name than "beginner's critic lounge" so we don't promote elitism.
Quote from: big brother on Wed 21/04/2004 15:08:45
If someone can say "the colors of your distant objects have too much contrast", that is advice I can implement.
That is advice that almost anyone can implement.
Quote
Don't you think it would be discouraging for a beginner to post something and get comments like "your inverse triangular compostion could be better accented through the use of truncated diagonals and negative space"?
The information contained in that particular piece of nonsense, which I appreciate you have obfuscated for effect, is probably of interest to most people.
However, I think it's pretty easy to guess what sort of advice is going to be heeded and what ignored. So you can carry on your elitism without splitting forums - just ask for indepth criticism when posting, and be condescending when replying :P
Maybe the difference between the forums is not beginner versus experienced or whatever, but rather:
99% Finished work for criticism
vs
Please Darth, or Farl or Loominous or whoever do a paintover of my rough sketch so that it looks as incredible as your stuff.
So the first is "Critics (and only critics) lounge" forum and second is "Music/Art help forum". OK, there's stuff other than music/art but lets face it that is 99% of it: anything that falls between stools can bend the rules of one or other a bit. Also, with a forum title like that, n00bs are more likely to look in there for a sticky about paint programs!
That's what I wanted to express... thanks SSH.
Why not calling the forums "sketches" and "ellaborated"? (Excuse me for talking just of paintings, that's the business I control...)
Who can complain of that? We're not sepparating groups of "stickman painters" and "gurus", it can be a little despective...
Mr. C. could post in the "sketches" groups for asking which is the better color for the jersey of his new character... Kandymaniac could have posted there sketches of their news "Little John Evil", without feeling obligated to elaborate them more... I feel sometimes CL useless because people sees a great composition mistake when the whole background is too elaborated, and I don't use a lot of layers (I am learning ;)) and I'm too lazy too change it all... I finally just ignore the critics and go on ::).
With the "sketches" and the "elaborated art" forums it would be easier for ALL to post art...
So, you are proposing more of a 'concept art' and 'finished works' type of setup? That would be OK.
Having taken your oppinions into consideration....
I think I have to settle with the character limit suggestion. The other alternatives are just too controversial at the moment, and still run the risk of not work anyway.
If the situation deteriorates and the amount of rashed creations/c&c increase, we might have to consider taking more measures.
So, if CJ and Mods agree, could we have a trial period for a hundred characters minimum limit?
I will also discuss with Mods about another surprise implementation to encourage people to give more elaborated c&c, as well as publish material more prudently.
Stay tuned
I think If you did have one post per project (not person) you should have it so that when something new is posted the person has to change the subject to something like 'New background on pg 7 for C&C' so it will get put to the top of the critics lounge and people don't have to trail through the thread to see new pieces of artwork.
A modified version of Andail s first suggestion would be to have seperate lounges for different types of criticism, instead of skill levels.
Most people seem to enjoy the current lounge and it s atmosphere, so I think leaving it as is would be best. The criticism consists mostly of friendly comments and encouragements, creating a supportive atmosphere which makes people comfortable with posting their art/critique, regardless of their skills.
The new lounge that I have in mind, would differ in the way of featuring only pure, honest constructional criticism in the manner of which Eric mentions, and having a more technical approach. This climate would likely lead to more discussions about techniques and sharing of indepth knowledge, something that might seem elitist in the ordinary lounge. Especially useful discussions/posts/tips could be gathered in knowledgethreads functioning as referencebanks to which the critics could refer.
So in short, the idea would be to let the present lounge stay as is, and create a new one in the style of which Eric and Andail speaks of.
Why not just fix this forum up instead of adding a new one?
As far as I can see, people in general like the current lounge the way it is. People like to post one line praises and smileys, and many enjoy recieving them, so why restrict these? They aren t bad per se, only a bit frustrating if you re wishing to recieve constructive advice.
In fact, the same thing can be said about detailed constructive criticism. Sometimes, people are simply proud of a piece of work, and wish to share it without seeing it torn apart, examined and criticised.
A new lounge would accommodate these diverse preferences, instead of forcing people to conform to the ideals of some.
Just look at it like this......
Critics Lounge 101 - The Beginners
Critcs Lounge 404 - For the more experienced.....
Just like a school course.... more is expected in later courses.
I think having two forums is a good idea. There has been an influx of really, well, thrown together things - as compared to the ART that some people turn in.....
Bt
QuoteThat is advice that almost anyone can implement.
You've missed my point. I wasn't saying that only advanced artists CAN implement this type of advice, I was saying that only advanced artists will CARE. When beginners want advice on backgrounds, they don't usually want to spend 800 hours slaving over intricacies. What I propose is beginners have different goals than experienced artists.
QuoteThe information contained in that particular piece of nonsense, which I appreciate you have obfuscated for effect, is probably of interest to most people.
That phrase I said, while maybe an extreme combination of art terms, is definitely not nonsense. During my year of art school, hearing phrases like that was not uncommon. My point again was not that art advice can't be interesting to everyone, it's just that it might not be relevant to people's particular goals.
For example, just because I'm drawing a bridge doesn't necessarily mean I want to get into the architectural physics of it. While that might affect the visual outcome, it doesn't match my goal of wanting to depict a recognizable representation of a functional bridge.
See what I mean?
Let me add some fuel to the fire, if I may (in a slightly off topic fashion).
I never got to go to art school. A lot of us who are mildly talented that didn't get a chance to go to art school wouldn't mind hearing when their work crosses the boundries of art theory.
I'd like to know if my inverse triangular compostion could be better accented through the use of truncated diagonals and negative space. I understand what that means and would not be offended in the least if someone 'in the know' dropped it on me...
I think, to most people here, I would be considered a noob. Especially since I don't have a published game and don't plan on working on one for about another four-to-six months.
Although I like the idea, after thinking about it, I'm more against it, because I would be afraid that there wouldn't be enough fantastic artists checking out the other forum and offering their help.
That is why we need a crack team of devoted moderators. Someone who is sympathetic, nice, and who know art... Someone who can handle it if a n00b13 lashed out at them...
...Someone like....
I dunno.
I don't like 2 forums idea. Neither thread/artist idea.
2 Forums? I think It would be more useful if new forum woul be named "Practise you art" or "Learn to draw" which means noobs would be posting there often and experts would tell them what or how to implement it.
And like this, "6 colors freehand pics" won't spam the CL.
Right now, if someone in CL says "not bad" I feel offended and if someone points out 101+ things to improve - it's a big compliment.
Thread per artist? How would it look like then? :-\
Maybe thread per project where someone posts some images of their project in progress, this would be better.
So, 3-4 bgs and sprites would be all in same thread.
This way, critics would be more fair too. For example, if I'm making a DOTT game and post one pic from it, and some expert offers a hand to correct bad perspective :) remade/corrected picture won't fit with other ones in game at all.
But this way, people could rate overall style and give more correct advice. That fits with the style.
Another idea (although it may sound stupid): rating. Why don't try to rate art and give them some score. If someone's art gets low score occasionally, artist already knows that he/she should spend more time in "learn to draw" forum. Then again, it may insult or discourage...
so... Which has been the conclussion? ???
My pennies...
I am a pretty heavy CL Lurker. I may be lying but I believe this is my first post ever here. I like browsing the Critics Lounge because it is very 'raw' art. A strange kind of inspiration. What I have always disliked is the vague topics. In that you 9 times out of 10 (or maybe more like 7 times) aren't sure if it is an image, song, story... ect.
I don't mean to be a music Nazi or image whore or anything but sometimes you like to just flip through and listen to some music or sometimes look at some images... perhaps you are stuck drawing something and sometimes just flipping through some art gets the gears turning.
The obvious solution is the break the critic's forum into its genre's of Music, Images, and Written Work. Though I don't know if this is the best solution. It would help breaking up things. Either that are forcing a more strict thread naming... thing. Such as in the tech forum.
I suggest we leave the forum as it is with the current level of moderation, but, people who wish for serious critique for their artwork can title their threads like this:
"SERIOUS CRITIQUE: Noir background".
Those threads would be more heavily moderated to prevent "man that rules" posts. Hopefully after a while people will get used to them and not post in those threads if they have nothing to contribute.
Essebs suggestion does incorperate most of what I had in mind without the hazzle of founding a new lounge, so for what s it s worth, I m in favour of the approach.
Minor idea, perhaps impractical, would be to include some sort of disclaimer link or text in those posts, at least during the first period, so the moderators would have less work cleansing them.
Example:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: Serious critique only (http://blank) (<- link to a [sticky?] post explaining the 'serious critique only' concept)
[Rest of post]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Would also be nice if people would include whether they will take offense to any editing of their work or not, since some consider this an intrusion while others thinks of it as a great help.
I dont see it as an issue anymore. I just think people need to be more detailed and that they need to keep similar art in the same thread. The amount of posts seems to be going down.
I like the Critics Lounge as it is - I think it's a good idea to keep all the critics in one place. If you split them you will end up having a group of newbie critics and more experiences artist critics.
The regulars should probalby make thier own constant thread eg . .Dr. Stupid BKG crit ect. And you can change the last word to make it aware that it's new stuff eg. Dr. Stupid BKG - Warehouse 05/06
Or something.
You could also have a - First Time Background - thread ect. (if this hasn't already been suggested).
An if you are in need of expert advice and arn't a newbie - use a different Icon that would symbolize your non newbie status and maybe ad a something to signify that like - BKG for Crit - serious critique needed. Or something like that.
After that it dosent take long to figure out which are the inexperienced artists - just by the name on the post. If you don't know them - Odds are they are newbies.
If I have repeated anyone I'm sorry - I didn't fully read all the posts - I know I suck but will also understand when you don't fully read my post either. [oops I did - I totally ripped off Essebs Critique idea]
But... but people are already adding "please be harsh" and things like that to the titles of threads. What does that say?
You are looking at prime suspect #1 when it comes to adding 'please be harsh' to my work. It helps me improve to have others rip me apart (stylistically or when it comes to concepts as simple as my proportions or anatomy).
It could be seen as my call, though. Having put that addendum onto my posts I am, in essence, asking for it.
Conversely, that may not be what everyone is looking for. Just trying to play devil's advocate.
1 thread/artist idea would be tremendously baffling and dis-organised. Unfortunatley threads in forums don't act so well as folders in Windows - each thread would get clogged up, huge, images would disappear - there'd be lots of replies to things you can't even see anymore and then the artist would have "new" images dotted around a whole thread that would be hard to navigate if you just want to add critique.
People would also be tempted to start a new thread under their name. Also, Andail and myself would not wish to have to prune every single persons thread just so it stays up to date.
A character limit sounds quite good, though I'm not entirely sure what that means or entails.
Also, people say" let's not have two forums to avoid elitism", but if you then go and impose stricter rules on the forum then you have made it elitist AND there is no appropriate forum for people who have had a basic go at their art and would like some help.
And a character limit will just cause people to have gobbledegook at the end of their one-liner posts... human nature! I suppose it might cut down on the number of ":o replies" but I doubt it will make much difference to the number fo new threads.