Thinking of making a third-person game next, and trying out animation... The problem is that with my current art style, animation is pretty much out of the question if I want to finish the game in this lifetime :P So I'm looking to combine a simpler character style with the backgrounds that I know how to do.
Here's a mockup of the result. The room's not finished, just some things thrown in to give an idea of what the background art style will look like. The character is drawn in the style I did for Trinity long ago. The problem is I don't know if these two clash too much.
(http://www.agspace.ws/sands/test.jpg)
Any other critique or comments are also most welcome :)
Here's my humble opinion as I am also going for a similar style on my current project:
Although you've said the background is not finished, I think you could pick stronger colours on both character and BG.
Successful adventure games rely on strong colours and it does look a bit washed away...
But I'm not answering your question, Am I? Well I think you got it the right way, see, if you put on cleaner/darker lines on the BG it will look flat, this way there's a sense of depth.
What I don't like is the gradients, I prefer more drawn detail and maybe stronger painted shadows.
The handle on the door turned out perfect but not the cupboard ones.
This said, your character looks very good as the rest of the image does, it's clearly above average in it's own style.
I think the character and background styles match quite well. You could probably add a bit more contrast to the background to make up for the lack of outlines (if you cover the left side of the screen with your hand, the remaining part of the background looks hazy compared to the character, as if someone smeared vaseline on the lens). Some stronger shadows might do the trick, as miguel suggested.
I really dig the simplistic character style which somewhat reminds me of my own game (using pre-rendered characters with a combo of cel-shading and sketch filter - I'm lazy):
(http://shadowplay.adventuredevelopers.com/images/screenshots/ss_libint.jpg)
Good work! Now show us some animations ;)
I hear you on the colours and the stronger shadows. Thanks, I'll work on it some more.
GarageGothic, that's exactly the style I was aiming for, except maybe less detailed. :P Beautiful screenshot, by the way.
Animation, you say? Presenting my first ever attempt at animation from scratch. It took me the entire morning (actually, about three hours). My problem is that he looks kind of hunched forward. Please feel free to tear to bits.
(http://www.agspace.ws/sands/test1_small.gif)
Just make his spine straight ;D
It's a nice work! How do you animate that? Do you draw each frame or you just edit it?
It's a combination of both, really. I start off by sketching a base animation with no details. Then I go over the base by copying and pasting the lineart over it, and editing to match the base.
Here's the base animation, if it helps any.
(http://www.agspace.ws/sands/test1_base.gif)
Quote from: miguel on Sat 06/02/2010 17:53:50
Here's my humble opinion as I am also going for a similar style on my current project:
Although you've said the background is not finished, I think you could pick stronger colours on both character and BG.
Successful adventure games rely on strong colours and it does look a bit washed away...
Do you mean strong contrasts when you say 'strong colours'?
Because I don't believe this is correct.
Full throttle had a lot of washed out backgrounds (even in the day scenes), and it was pretty successful.
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/315/bg1or.png)
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6743/bg2ik.th.png) (http://img17.imageshack.us/i/bg2ik.png/)
Sythe: I'm not sure what you mean by 'washed out'. I would describe the full throttle screenshots as high contrast and highly saturated (i.e. with strong colours).
However there are plenty of beautiful games that don't use strong colours, like Machinarium and Siberia. Low contrast is something that is probably better to avoid, because it can lead to flat, undynamic images (see Nelly Cootalot!).
auriond: This reminds me of Hotel Dusk, which is very positive. What I don't like about it is the lack of detail. GG's image is much richer and would be much more fun to explore in a game. If I were you I'd consider combining that character style with a 3D, or photomontage backdrop. The contrasting styles could create something unique.
Thanks Ali. :) The background isn't finished, but what I was aiming for was something like The Marionette's backgrounds, except perhaps less detailed, to match the character. GarageGothic's example has convinced me however that more detail might be a better idea. Quite a pity, since I was actually trying to achieve something faster to draw. :P I'll work some more on that background.
Quote from: Ali on Sun 07/02/2010 11:11:28
Sythe: I'm not sure what you mean by 'washed out'. I would describe the full throttle screenshots as high contrast and highly saturated (i.e. with strong colours).
Against what standard?
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/210/contrasts.png)
(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6999/room002t.th.png) (http://img5.imageshack.us/i/room002t.png/)
QuoteHowever there are plenty of beautiful games that don't use strong colours, like Machinarium and Siberia. Low contrast is something that is probably better to avoid, because it can lead to flat, undynamic images (see Nelly Cootalot!).
I think the washed-out gritty sort of feel has a certain appeal to it. I don't think it's valid to argue that adventure games should have bright colours and sharp contrasts just because 'that's how adventure games are'.
As I said, I don't think games need strong colours, but I'm still uncertain of what you mean by 'washed out'. Low contrast, or low saturation, or both?
Full Throttle is a bit less saturated than the other backdrop (is that the Dig by the way?), but not much compared with this low-saturation screenshot:
(http://www.metzomagic.com/images/2006/Dreamfall4b.jpg)
I do think low contrast images have a tendency to be flat and uninteresting. Certain graphical styles work with low contrast, but it's often less exciting.
I'd call the Full Throttle backdrop high contrast because it creates depth through areas of light and dark colours. Here's an image that uses low contrast in all of the important areas, from the dreadful Journey to the Center of the Earth:
(http://www.harmonicflow.com/game/screenshots/journey-to-the-center-of-the-earth_screen1.jpg)
It looks distinctly flat in comparison with both of the images you posted. Admittedly the terrible composition is part of that, but the floor could have been broken up with pools of light.
Quote from: Ali on Sun 07/02/2010 12:37:53
Full Throttle is a bit less saturated than the other backdrop (is that the Dig by the way?), but not much. I'd call it high contrast because it creates depth through areas of light and dark colours.
Yeah that is The Dig.
QuoteHere's an image that uses low contrast in all of the important areas, from the dreadful Journey to the Center of the Earth:
It looks distinctly flat in comparison with both of the images you posted.
I can certainly see your point. But, I actually don't think the problem with the image you posted is a lack of contrast. (And this may just be a mix-up of definitions.) The problem is that you have a lot of ambient lighting, which results in weak shadows and lit back-faces.
The human eye takes a lot of information from shadows and highlights about the depth and physical orientation of a scene. If you remove this information I think you tend to get that flat effect.
Don't want to star a discussion that is far from the initial post, but as I said, I'm working on drawn images and this topic is very useful to me.
Saying that, I do believe that until AGS is not capable of adding such atmosphere effects mentioned in a comfortable way, games made with it, that have higher resolutions should adopt a colourful, high contrast visual as to appeal to the general public.
Imagine all those Disney movies having their colours desaturated, they just wouldn't be the same.
Someone mentioned "The Marionette" (great game!) and it balances very well the issue in hands.
Quote from: Sythe on Sun 07/02/2010 12:49:05
I can certainly see your point. But, I actually don't think the problem with the image you posted is a lack of contrast. (And this may just be a mix-up of definitions.) The problem is that you have a lot of ambient lighting, which results in weak shadows and lit back-faces.
I think it must be a mix-up with definitions! To my mind, flat ambient lighting and weak shadows is precisely what has produced a low contrast image.
High or low contrast in an image doesn't necessarily have anything to do with colour. Film noirs often use high contrast images black and white images. American soap operas often use low contrast images with high saturation. Journey to the Center of the Earth is aesthetically the soap opera of the adventure game world!
Quote from: miguel on Sun 07/02/2010 13:05:55
Imagine all those Disney movies having their colours desaturated, they just wouldn't be the same.
I'm also sorry to hijack auriond's thread! However, I must challenge the idea that Disney always uses highly saturated colours. Some of the most beautiful Disney animations use low saturated backdrops:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QdHn8FT7SdY/RtUW_-HtdUI/AAAAAAAAAN0/WdUgZph0RxM/s1600-h/101c.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QdHn8FT7SdY/SMHpp8qhf6I/AAAAAAAADrM/k6GzvkBVeOw/s1600-h/SB_25.jpg
Oh no, please do continue. I'm very fascinated by the direction this discussion is taking, and it may come in useful to whoever else is trying to decide on a palette for their game.
Personally, my taste in aesthetics favour low saturation. I have received feedback on The Marionette's backgrounds being too washed out and blurry, though, so I'm open to trying new styles and palettes.
Quote from: miguel on Sun 07/02/2010 13:05:55
Imagine all those Disney movies having their colours desaturated, they just wouldn't be the same.
Right, because Disney is quite garish, and thats very much part of the animation style / genre. (No disrespect to Disney of course.)
But by equal merit, can you imagine a gritty cult-classic like Blade Runner with garish pure colours? I think that it would be almost rudely inappropriate to marry any sort of serious crime fiction with saturated colours and brightly lit scenes.
(http://www.biocrawler.com/w/images/3/3b/BladeRunner_Sun.jpg)
QuoteI think it must be a mix-up with definitions! To my mind, flat ambient lighting and weak shadows is precisely what has produced a low contrast image.
High or low contrast in an image doesn't necessarily have anything to do with colour. Film noirs often use high contrast images black and white images. American soap operas often use low contrast images with high saturation. Journey to the Center of the Earth is aesthetically the soap opera of the adventure game world!
Yeah I think we are in agreement. The definition problem comes down to what type of contrast one is talking about. When I say high-contrast I mean that there is a great difference between hues used in the image, and a significant difference between highlights and shadows also. I would put Full Throttle in the "washed-out" genre because it uses a rather limited set of colours for any given scene, which don't produce a great deal of contrast on their own. But as you also point out, hard lighting (mostly in the form of shadows with few highlights) is also added which produces the sense of depth you were talking about earlier.
I need to study colour theory more, then possibly the definitions will be more clear to me.
Quote from: auriond on Sun 07/02/2010 13:20:35
Oh no, please do continue. I'm very fascinated by the direction this discussion is taking, and it may come in useful to whoever else is trying to decide on a palette for their game.
Personally, my taste in aesthetics favour low saturation. I have received feedback on The Marionette's backgrounds being too washed out and blurry, though, so I'm open to trying new styles and palettes.
Personally, two things I thought detracted from the graphics in The Marionette were the pastel palette and the smooth chalk or airbrush effect (esp. on faces). It gave it a very eighties aesthetic that I find pretty cheesy, like the posters at a hairdresser or the celebrity sketches made by street artists. That made it hard for me to take the story seriously, because I was constantly getting these negative associations. And yes, the smoothness or chalkiness does come across as blurry in the backgrounds.
Your fundamentals are really good, but I wish you'd try something different with the finish, and tweak the colors a bit. Your new wip screen seems like a good start at developing a different look.
Ali: I see your point, great screen shots you gave. I was thinking, when I wrote the sentence, on some different movies from Disney.
I guess we can conclude that the mood needed for a scene/background is what matters when deciding on your palette, although I rather be transported and immersed to another world through "happy" colours than those somewhat depressing and foggy scenarios. But that's only my own taste speaking.
Saying this, I wouldn't want Blade Runner to have its colours changed a single bit :)
Quote from: Snarky on Sun 07/02/2010 16:25:38
Personally, two things I thought detracted from the graphics in The Marionette were the pastel palette and the smooth chalk or airbrush effect (esp. on faces). It gave it a very eighties aesthetic that I find pretty cheesy, like the posters at a hairdresser or the celebrity sketches made by street artists.
Ah, that's what comes of being a true child of the eighties. Yes, I've had such comments on my digital art style before. It's a result of having developed a habit of overrelying on the smudge brush in Photoshop. I'm trying to kick the habit.
Does no one have anything to say about the animation? If not I'll just straighten his back and go on my merry way. ;D Thanks everyone for the comments and the insightful discussion.
The animation is a little short but he seems to put more weight on his right leg and thus looks like he's limping a bit. Otherwise it's nice and smooth.
Maybe the left leg could use a frame between it being bended and stretched out as well. It looks kind of springy like this.
Thanks, everyone who commented on the animation. I'll work on it.
Meanwhile, I redid the room. Here it is without objects, but it's well furnished, and I tweaked the colours as well.
(http://www.agspace.ws/sands/test2.jpg)
OK, but where are the shelves?
I really don't like the characters face. He looks like Kevin Bacon in the movie Hollowman when they had made that rubber face for him.
His face is pale yet his features are black.
About the background, I think your edges are too weak and undefined in some areas. Mostly the chair and door. Shadows are definitely needed.
I'm not a big fan of the bed. The light sheets are fine if they are a silky smooth type fabric since the light and shadow is greatly noticeable on it. But the blue sheet (which is usually thicker and a rougher fabric) is giving off glare and shadow like it's a thin plastic sheet laid over the bed. Also I believe the base sheet would look better if it were tucked in under the mattress and a foreground element in the right hand space of the room.
I also think the cupboard unit should be moved over to the right so it doesn't steal from the beds horizontal space. The edge of the cupboard meet up with the corner of the bed and it creates a room division. Also, why not replace the right cupboard door with shelves and add some objects on them.
Edit: Also try to tone down the shadow on the right side of the cupboards. Right now you have shadows on the left and right side of it and it's really stealing the contrast between the cupboard and wall on the right side.
The shelves will be added when I'm putting objects on them.
Thanks Ryan. Seems like my laziness is showing. :P I wasn't decided where to put the light source, hoping that it could work for both daytime and nighttime scenes. I'lll redo the shadows properly.
Would it help if I reduced the contrast on the character? Maybe make his outlines grey instead of solid black?
I think the outlines are great IMHO, but i think the background could have the same painting style as the background. This would create a better immersion to it.
I dont quite like the shading of the room...
Why dont you try shading it like the character? Small number of contrasting(ligh/dark) colors, not "blended" with some gradient tool...
But the final one looks good, still it kinda looks lie a 2d character in a 3dish world
Because I'm not aiming for full cel-shaded. It limits me in ways that I don't quite like for backgrounds. That's why I made this thread - to see if there was any way I could integrate a 2D cel-shaded figure into a realistic-ish background.
With some objects added:
(http://www.agspace.ws/sands/test3.jpg)
I turned the lights on, reduced the contrast of the black outlines on the character, and tweaked the colours again. I also tried to add faint outlines to the background where I thought necessary. I'm not changing the layout of the room though.
have a look at Borderlands and the lastest Prince of Persia. They have a more realitistic look to their characters. I'm not sure how to achieve this technically though
Those are achieved using 3D, I think. At least I know Prince of Persia was.
ohw I was under the impression yours was aswell.
Quote from: Buckethead on Sun 28/02/2010 09:58:53
ohw I was under the impression yours was aswell.
Really?
I say just clean up the edges and fix the face.