Heres the first page of a web comic I was trying out, It's total story is about 9 pages I think.....This is just the first, I've got about another to inked waiting on colors....I still need to figure out the best way to put in talk bubbles and narrator boxes.....
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/25centfullpg1png.png)
I'm really dying to know what you guys think....
Is this the first page of the comic, or just the first page you've finished?
Looks interesting!
What is the script for this page? ie What is going in the boxes and bubbles?
It it supposed to be disjointed?
Is that Deathlok type guy a bouncer leaning against the wall? He seems a bit too big in that case.
That's one huge cigarette in panel 2.
The orange details in the first panel are a little too "highlighted" - perhaps greyer colours would make them stand out less.
Elf-boy's head in panel 3 shouldn't overlap his own foot in panel 1. It should overlap something inconsequential.
I'd move the sign down and to the right so that it doesn't overlap panels 1 and 2, or onto the left wall and partially obscured with blood.
Disclaimer. I'm not generally a fan of frame elements overlapping. It draws my eye out of sequence.
I disagree with Steve's dislike of overlapping frames. I think it can be a visually exciting technique as long as it is used appropriately. And I think this is a good time to use it. The mood of the comic jumped so quickly into violence and blood that the overlapping makes it feel more like a smash cut in a movie. It kind of lends a 'BAM!' feeling to it. However, I do have a few problems with it.
I agree that his head shouldn't overlap the foot, and also that the cigarette is ginormous. Actually, I just think the elf-boy's head is entirely too small compared to his clothes and cig.
It's difficult to have a three panel page, when a square page lends itself so naturally to four panels. You've got the final panel ending in the lower right hand side of the page. I think the eye always wants to end the action on the page in the lower left hand side. A single frame on the bottom of the page should either take up the whole width of the page or should be on the right side.
With regards to your art style, I think the comic's drama and mood would benefit a lot by a shadow layer... quick demonstration.
Quick paintover:
(http://www.thexiis.com/media/paintovah.png)
That was crappy, but with only a few moments' work, I think it added a lot of mood to the page. Of course, your style is your own, so it's just a suggestion.
Hello. This is cool. I think your palette might benefit from more earthly tones, not so much primary colours, and not so dark. I know the subject matter in this case calls for it, but it seems you're using a selected range of colours in your pieces. Maybe experimenting with hued palettes ( where all the colours have a slight tint towards a direction in the colour wheel) or even very desaturated, almost gray stuff, just to see how it works over your lineart? In any case, I really think these are too dark. If this is a night scene, you should tint in blue and purple, and go for an almost baroque-ish monochromatic effect. Right now it's just gray. A gray night. In the first panel, for example, the gray on the floor and the gray on the wall really flatten the frame, because they're the same gray ( as eric pointed out in irc). My opinion is, avoid TOTAL gray at all costs for colouring. It doesn't exist, it real life. Just by the fact that a gray surface is hit by a tinted lightsource ( all of them are, besides cold, hard clinical flourescent lights) it adopts that colour. If it's night, blue, or neon purple or whatever. If it's day, yellows and rusted orange. Generally, you seem to be colouring thinking "if I need to paint something green, I have this ONE green I'm going to use!" which shouldn't apply since you're colouring in PS, and you've got dozens of discernible hues you could apply. Don't use the same colour in two spots unless it sequentially means something (like, the colour of someone's suit shouldn't change from one panel to another, whereas two different walls should not be the same shade of gray). Experiement with your colours a lot, brighten them, tint them, bring out the volumetric aspect of your designs by altering hue and saturation.
There are some noted pacing issues. If he's thinking the third panel, you need a storytelling device to signify that. Otherwise, the reader is just transported from panel two, to a whole different place in panel three without warning, which is really disorientating. Even a thought bubble, or a gradient fade would help, here.
Okay, heres a redone version, where I tried to incorporate your suggestions....I had the words all written out all ready, just was too lazy to put it on yesterday, sorry heh....
Steve
This is the first page of a chapter, It kinda just throws you into it, hopefully I can express myself well enough to be interesting....
The Guy in panel 2 is a bouncer, and a little big I agree, along with the cigarrette...I'm hoping doing this comic will help me tidy up my art so thank you for the tips...
I've always like overlapping, but I appreciate your advice.
Vince
I hear what your saying about the panels, I drew all these images on a full sheet of paper, then had some issues when I placed them on the comic page. There was an intended frame to go on the bottom right.
The shading thing I have been struggling with. I'm gonna focus on flat colors first and get down my color selection before I mess with shading, although it is definately something I'm planning....
Helm
I always dig you and eric's advice. I tried to change up the colors abit as you suggested, but I'm sure they still need work. I'm gonna go with this for this first page, and work more on my consecutive pages....
Thanks everyone for your advice....how does this new version look? And I don't know if it's too early yet, but any writing tips?
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/comic1redo.png)
I think it's lots better! Here's an edit to show how I'd shade the second panel face. It seems complicated, but it's not. First of all, I shaded with a purplish darker flesh shade from an overhead lightsource ( even at night there is one) without oversharpening. Then I used a secondary lightsource to the left ( ours) which I imagined to be some neon signs flashing or something. This is for the mood, mostly. Did a few highlights where the edges of the contours would give some off. Don't forget to shade in the opposite direction when you use secondary lightsources. Where there is light, there will also be darkness. I shaded the right side of the face a bit more so the secondary lightsource could be balanced. Then I decided to use the enormous cigarette as a third lightsource, but I think it's a bit overdone. Could do without it.
I must say I really dig the shadowrun setting you've used and am eagerly awaiting for more of your work on this.
(http://www.sylpher.com/helm/panel.png)
Love Helm's lighting job. The page would benefit a lot from this. Especially the last 'BAM!' frame. I imagine it with some pretty harsh clinical-white overhead lighting... but that's just me.
Look out for small typos in the script. I think you need a space in the second frame in "stupidif." Also, in the last panel, I think you want "The name's Scid" rather than "The names Scid."
Looks nice.
(http://www.unosar.com/digitalstrip/scidstrip.jpg)
Just a quick edit on the panels. It's a bit more suitable font I think than Comic Sans MS.
If you're interested, I put it online for you to use at: http://www.unosar.com/digitalstrip/
Don't know who created the font, though.
Good luck Squinks! It looks good :)
Helm
Coolness, I'm glad you liked the newer colors, I'll keep working on it. I loved the highlights you added, they rock my ass. I've tried to emulate them somewhat, but I am still unhappy with the result. This "chapter" is only about 9-10 pgs long, I was plannign on attempting some style alterations on the next chapter, so I'll work on it till then, and hopefully I can implement it by then....
You like the shadowrun setting, that rocks, have you ever been geeky enough to play the tabletop game? heh....
Vince
Thank you for the typo info, it's amazingly easy to miss....I'm glad you think it looks nice.
hobbes
Thanks for the help man, I like the way you arranged the words a bit better than mine, and your choices in dialog have a cooler ring than mine. I'll probably change it to match if you don't mind. I'm gonna go with that font on the next chapter though, since I've got page two right here....
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/comic_pg_2.1.png)
I had some issues making the bubbles fit....any comments?
I like what Hobbes has done. Very Frank Miller.
Also, using that font and style takes up less room, which helps.
I wouldn't use exact ovals - they're not a good fit. Check out some comics - the speech balloons are shaped more like a 60s TV screen.
Comic artists often lay out pages roughly with thumbnail sketches, and make sure at an early stage that there is room for the dialog. If you have trouble fitting the dialog, you might want to plan ahead a bit.
There are too many ...s in this script. It makes everything seem hesitant. Fine for the nervous guy, but for the narration and the main character, drop them. I see from your email that's your writing style. Heh.
Some of the dialog is a little weak, particularly "Hey, I'm here." and "OMFG! It stinks!" Suggestions? "Talk." and "Jesus/Frak/Smeg/Shadowrunner exclamation. It stinks."
"Yeah, but please, don't call me that..." -> "Don't call me that."
Your character sounds all hard boiled in his narration - I think this fits better.
Typos again:
Pretty cheesy
nothing I'm not used to
This guy's new to this gig
His heart's beating
Layout: You need an establishing shot, showing the alley and the two characters together.
I wouldn't use one of those manga sweat indicators. A couple of "realistic" beads of sweat would work better for me.
The shot of him looking into the sewer: I would draw the opening with perspective, and with the edge of the manhole cover protruding into the opening.
Steve
I prefered the original textlayout. Albeit Hobbes is very Marvelish, it is very Marvelish ;)
Aligning your text is also crucial. You don't need bubbles, but whichever shape you use, make sure you don't end up with spaces of white. Try to place the words in a diamond shape, that works swell.
Ã, Ã, Hi, what Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, God dammit!
are you doingÃ, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Will you stop mop-
Ã, with that?Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, Ã, ing around foo!
This is getting really interesting... you're off a smashing start Squinky! I love the ammount of details you put in your first two pages, it really adds a lot of life. Already, I find myself attached to the main character and wondering what will happen next....!!
Can't wait to see more pages!
Thanks for the tips guys, and thanks for the interest coffee lady! I will do my best to incorporate you suggestions and post something back here soon I hope....(lifes been a bit busy unfortunately)
My edit to the left, old version to the right:
(http://www.nolore.com/picmisc/comicedit2.png)
* Proper textlayout - this might be one of your biggest issues; it's downright awkward to read! In my version the text is too small, but it's just to fit.
* Redrew baloons; they're still too big, which is due to too much text/frame.
* some sort of lighting/shading. Very simple, just to give an idea.
* Background altered not too blend too much with the character. The backgrounds still need more work; they're way too boring and sloppy!
I'm being a bit harsh, but it's only because you have a great potential, and building up a very original and cool style!
Good job!
PS; Helm, your shading rocks! The light from the cigarette is way too strong, though :p
Yeah, andail does a great job in his edit. The fact that the backgrounds and the characters blended too much escaped me. But looking back now it's kinda obvious. Remember that warm colours appear 'closer' and cold futher away. Make characters and backgrounds occupy different visual space, by making either brighter, or darker. I love how with just a few shades of colour, andail lightened up everything very solidly on his edit.
Oh... I suggest you avoid the 'sweatdrop'. Leave the manga conventions to manga comics.
As boring as it sounds, when you want to draw a wall or something that requires straight lines, take out your ruler. I avoided this to hell younger, but now I realize the painful reality that is making comics: 70% is about setting up scenes using vanishing points and stuff. So yeah, rulers.
Some more ideas: alter the focus from panel to panel. Go from generic establishing shot to closeups, tilt the camera for odd effects, overhead, face shots. You do this, but not enough. Most of your panels are closeups. Don't be afraid to draw a city panel from time to time, it is useful for immersion. For instance, where are the two characters talking in panel 2. You say, dark alley. But did you show us? Are we to assume what it looks like? Take your time with this stuff. Don't let the art just move the story along. Make it complement it.
I love the art-work ... even the lack of shading doesn't bother me that much (though I would recommend it).
What I would suggest is, since it's a 'web-comic', you should steer away from typical paper based comic strips. Try something new and different.
For instance ...
Do it all in flash. Each frame 'plays' out when you mouse over it. So when you mouse over frame 1 the text box would fade in saying "I've found myself ..." etc. Then the next text would fade in. Maybe each frame could have it's own background sound. So in the first frame again you could hear city sounds in the background. Car horns, chatter, aircraft overhead, car stereos, etc. as the text comes into view. Then, when the reader is done with that frame they mouseOver the next frame and so on and so on. Or maybe when the first frame is done a little arrow appears to start the next frame. (something like that).
Really (I mean REALLY) quick and dirty example of what I mean: (http://www.twin-design.com/ags/help/squinky_help01.cfm)
Hope it helps!
gah not to violently dissagree, but let people think up of their own pace for a comic book! It's not a movie!
Darth has ambition. You gotta give him that. I assume you've seen Broken Saints (http://www.brokensaints.com)? (Soon to be made into an "adventure" game for next generation consoles/PC)
I say produce something you can finish. THEN adapt it to flash or another form of media, if that's the way you see the project going.
BTW: Love Andail's edit. Except for the way too small text (as he mentioned).
And in that first frame of page two, he's leaning against the wall, but he's leaning the wrong way. It looks like he's going to fall over...
One more suggestion: add some smoke from the cigarette.
Quote from: Helm on Sun 24/04/2005 19:39:48gah not to violently dissagree, but let people think up of their own pace for a comic book! It's not a movie!
I don't think it would force people to read at a designated pace. Rather it would just animate each frame in and you read as you will.
I was just thinking of making it more 'lively' than something printed on a piece of paper. Doing a webcomic opens doors of possibilities that just aren't available on the printed page. Motion/movement (not necessarily animation of the action) and sound would make quite an experience I think. But hey, just my opinion ;)
Quote from: Vince Twelve on Mon 25/04/2005 00:43:45
Darth has ambition. You gotta give him that. I assume you've seen Broken Saints?
I had never seen Broken Saints before (thanks for the link). My ambition is a desire to see a webcomic try something new and interesting ;) I've been meaning to make my own webcomic for years ... I've just never had the time to devote :(
Squinky - I think it looks great and I'd read it either way (just to let you know)!!
On the Dark Horse Comics website, they have a bunch of Hellboy ecomics that are made in Flash. They sport minimal animation and a few sounds. You move at your own pace because there're previous and next arrows below the comic frame. It's worth checking out.
Pg. 3:
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/comicpg3.png)
I realize I may be perpetauting some issues here, but I plan on going back and having a once over before I get too far. Just felt more like doing another page before doing more fix up work....
I'm still working on the shading thing, and will most likely go over these pages soon...
Darth
I like the whole interactive comic thing, but I have an affinity to classic comics. That and I suck at flash...heh....Maybe someday though. Hey and thanks for the compliments man!
Helm+Andail
I will definately keep all of these tips in mind. I just hope I'm not irratating you guys when I don't quite get what your saying at first....
It's more I think, that we're not irritating you by hitting you with too much stuff, in too little time. Like the third page, but I wouldn't say the facial expression of the main character on the last panel is completely appropriate. It's a difficult one, though.
Since I'm not of any art calibur high enough to give tips, maybe something on facial expression. I think the expression I'd like to see for the final statement is more of an: Eyes slightly narrowed, smirking expression (closed lips, moderate upturning of the mouth, more so on one side). It would sort of say, "You don't wanna F_ with me, but I'd find it amusing if you did."
Be very careful entering sound effects and/or simple animation. I've seen some experiments using the formula, and I'm not that impressed. Whenever you start using anything other than virtually a still frame, you fudge up time, thus NOT making the reader choose their own pace. I know you talk about structured and userbased progress, but I'm talking single to single frame comprehension here. The very core of sequensial communication lies in seclosed moments, brought out of time. Incorporating movement/sound/effects deludes readers oh so little, yet oh so much. I don't think you such experiment with multimedia just because it's a webcomic. A suggest you only make experiments with page layout and readability for screen usage, and leave comics as comics. Otherwise it is a toon.
what the deserter and betrayer of ags said.
(http://marcus.krupa.se/AGS/sc.png)
Think a standard inked shadow would work quite well. It s strong for well lit areas (and most others really) but since your comic seems to take place in mostly shady enviroments, it should work.
Some pros:
I) Quick
II) Creates dramatic scenes
III) Provides a classic comic look
IV) Easy coloring (no second shade to pick)
-
On a sidenote, I noticed that your linework is very rounded. There are two potential problems with this:
I) When working in 2D it s often adviced to exhaggerate "blockiness" to enhance the illusion of 3D, since well rounded and soft shapes don t suggest surfaces as clearly, and thereby tend to give a flat look.
II) Soft/rounded shapes tend to give a more friendly/feminine impression, and since you seem to aim for a sort of dark style, this may work against it.
Just a matter of style though.
-
Edit: Another thing. When coloring, a simple way to get the elements to connect to eachother, is to tint it towards some color.
A common mistake is to color things in neutral colors, as if shot seperately in a studio with white lighting. In reality, light bounces off and on all objects mixing the colors of the surfaces with the others, which is why you ll never find pure colors anywhere (if you observe a poolplayer leaning over a well lit table, you ll notice that regardless of the color of his clothes, he s pretty much all green on the side facing the table, caused by the light bouncing off the green surface of the table).
So by simply tinting the painting, you ll make the colors appear uniform and get rid it of neutral colors, which will connect the objects to eachother.
Heres an attempt at shading pg 3 (fixed his expression on last frame)
(http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/pg3shaded.png)
It's not that great, and it takes a while....
this is quite more interesting to look at, for me at least. Try to avoid 'blanket shading' though. I'm mainly looking at panel 3 here. There should be a discernible light source, that accentuates things not all-evenly. Some of them are awash in the resulting shadows, some are not. If you look at the jacket in panel three, you've chased the contours of it and shaded evenly. This would only happen with strong lightning right in his face, and then, not so much.
I like it a lot so far, and this has been my only source for seeing the updates to the comic....which is odd...CONSIDERING(aheM)..i agree with Helm on the matter of the shading on the last panel on page 3 though. Like i have said to you before....Identify that light source...before you color it decide where that lightbulb covered in nasty rusted metal grating is...the color is the lightbulb? How much light does it give off? Etc. But we have also talked about how you plan on improving with comics, and time. So i say do what is comfortable. At least you are producing something, which many artists cannot claim(since most of 'us' are procrastinators)(okay, well, at least i am)
I likey alot.
keep on cranking 'em out bro.
I'm thinking I will produce the last four or so pages in the non-shaded style. I still can't pick a shading style, and I want to keep moving, so I don't succomb to dropping the thing altogether.... (I do stuff like that, I look at pg 1 thru 3 and think I should just redraw it all, cause it looks sloppy, but then when I redrew it all I would just want to do it again till I dropped it)
I've been looking at anime shading and will try that style I think. Part of my problem was I didn't plan on shading when I drew and colored the thing and I will plan next time. I'm hoping to have chapter 1 done in about a week, and will post it here (since I am an attention whore) and we'll all rock out with our cocks out....er?
Quick update for any who were interested....I've done about 3 more pages and they are all on line on drunkduck.....Heres the link....
http://www.drunkduck.com/25_cent_life/?i=494852
I will now cease pimping this here and just put a linky in my sig....