As I was sitting at my desk I looked at my clock. So I move my mouse down to the bottom right to find the time is 11:56 PM, September 11. I had totally forgotten until the last 4 minutes. Not only that but I didnt see anything on the news, or hear anyone else mention it. Now I was fealing guilty. The day was over with and I had forgotten. Not only that but I couldnt remeber how many years ago it was. I had to sit and think for 2 minutes to remember. Have we all forgotten about this day already?
Forgotten about what day? :P
I don't think people forgot about it, there's just nothing new to report really. It's been 3 years and we've had a thread about it each year except this one. I figure there's nothing left to say.
I could go on about how the Republicans used it as a publicity stunt at the convention, and that it's been 3 years and Osama still isn't caught, that nothing has been done to protect us really, that first responders still don't have the funding they need, that the Bush Admininstration uses the terror alert like a toy to scare people into not caring about bad press which in turn makes people desensitized to it and when it really HAS to go up for a legitimate reason no one will pay attention.
But there's no point in going into all that, we'll have a big arguement thread and nothing will get resolved and my questions will get ignored and then we'll stop.
It's a horribly tragic thing that happened and it sucks so hard that it did. All the remembering in the world won't help the families of the victims so there's no reason to feel bad.
I say deal with it in your own personal way and then cheer up on monday cause that's my birthday [so people! stop PMing me wishing me a happy birthday! It's the 13th!]
eric
You know what I just realized? I never thought about the fact that as much as people say they hate politics and such, they still talk about it.
I will never forget 911...
I think Bush said it best:
QuoteWe've turned a corner.
Perhaps our failure as a people to throw ourselves upon the ground and throw dirt over our backs in anguish simply means we've realised that "hope is on the way".
But please, let us not forget september 20.
I spent a good part of the evening looking at photos from 911.
Brought back a lot of feelings...
I'm with Eric. Noone's forgotten, but there's no need to expect some kind of uh... hoo har (?) just because it's the same date some years later. People won't forget in the long term, but it does need to be ... I'm searching for a word, not "forgotten" but... left alone, I think, so we can get on with life again. As much as it was a tragedy, we can't constantly honour every one of these things and there have been a lot of things more devestating in terms of human life than this that weren't even remembered the day after by a lot of people. There's no real crime in this - it's necessary to move on. I don't want this date to become something that has to be dredged up every year for the rest of my life. Even though it's only 3 years, I don't think much needs to go publicly. I always feared it would be so when they started referring to it as "9/11". It was a bit like, "Oh god. It's been named after the date it happened, that means this date will be tainted forever".
I was flying from Prague to Sofia yesterday, and I didn't realize it was 9-11 until the middle of the flight. I didn't get upset though... 9-11 is history, as is everything else but the present.
One of my best friends' birthday is 9-11. So in that sense treating the day in grief is insulting to him. He deserves a birthday as much as any other person.
kingsized: That's exactly the kind of situation I was thinking of. Lots of people have birthdays on that day and I'm sure more than a few really dread the date now.
I relized that it's 9-11 in the last minutes too. I didn't panic. ;) I though, if nothing had happend so far, there probably won't happen now.
I didn't forget. In fact, I did a net search an found proof of a prior attempt at a terrorist attack on a famous landmark. Only that time, they didn't have access to a plane so they had to use the next best thing they could find.
I think the prior attempt didn't work as well as the terrorists hoped. (http://www.urbin.net/EWW/images/apics/HardRock.jpg)
I dont mean to sound rude or anything, BUT I DONT CARE ABOUT 9-11.
Yes people died, Yes I am heartless, but I truelly dont care. We acted as if the world was coming to an end but in truth all that happened is a building collapsed. We need to stop thinking about ourselves and start thinking about others. Maybe if we helped other nations more often then destroying them not as many attacks would occur.
If people really cared they would be remembering on days other then when it happened.
Either way, it belongs to the past. Several years have passed, worse things have happened. Just let it rest.
Quote from: LostTraveler on Sun 12/09/2004 14:41:23
I dont mean to sound rude or anything, BUT I DONT CARE ABOUT 9-11.
I hate to say this, but me neither.
Sure I can feel sorry for everyonewho died that day, but do you sit and feel remorse for that poor guys father who died yesterday? That 42 year olds' mum who will die tomorrow?
That fact is you don't really know those people, so I can't really care.
Yes I am a heartless bastard.
Yes I say screw the world.
Yes I'm eating chocloate cake.
What's that got to do with anything? ABSOLUTELY FRIKKIN BUGGER-ALL NOTHING!
Nothing at all! What's my point? Do Need a point? Hm? Do I have to have a point for every single little
pointless rant that I make? Does there always have to be motive behind something?
Why can't we just do things for the hell of it anymore? What's anything got to do with anything?
WHAT IS WRONG WITH US?
What the hell are you talking about, Zor?
Nothing is (wrong with us). As big a tragedy as it was, there's lots of big tragedies in the world. Daily. What makes this one different is simply that it happened in a place where no one expected it to - in the middle of one of the greatest cities of the world, by eastern civilization standards.
Sure, it was dreadful. Sure, it DID change lots of things artistically. But, it's over, and the day itself is as meaningless as any other.
In my opinion, bugger the day. Remember the event.
My point wasnt to morn or be sad. The fact that that day pushed us into billions of dollars in debt and I didnt see one banner, or hear about it on tv at all, bothers me. Our nation is at fear, at war, and these topics are very important to the presidential candidates. Yet, I didnt even hear a "Well its Sept. 11th, and we'd like to send our condolences to the familes who have lost" on the news.
They've crammed this idea that terrorists are going to blow up the United States and rape our women or whatever, but it isnt a national holiday?
Frankly, I agree with Lost Traveler. I dont really care. Its sad, its over, move on. But no, I mentioned this to a teacher and I got bitched out because I wasnt patriotic. "Go back to Russia, you damned Commie!"
Our country is a sad and confusing place.
(http://www.agsforums.com/yabb/Smileys/default/undecided.gif)
Your teacher really said that?
Damn facists dont even know that USSR wasnt commie under stalin!
Sorry bout being off topic
Haha, well, I do have a lot of communist views, and people brought that up, but they didnt say that exactly.
Hah, you would hate my school. My english teacher is a german who came to the states when he was 10, he talks about the nazis with overwhelming pride. Take this story for example:
Erlich: I have pictures of my parents making a sand castle with the swastika on it.
Student: A sand castle with the nazi flag on it?
Erlich: NO! THE GERMAN FLAG!
Its kinda funny but me and him agree on some views but fight about others. Im like the border line between commie and facist
BACK ON TOPIC:
I think the presidential canadites are doing the correct thing by not mentioning it. It might split the votes, some people are for candle services etc... for it, some abhor it. By not mentioning it they are staying on high ground during the flood.
Every other word at the republican convention was 9-11. Don't you watch the Daily Show with John Stewart?
Im speaking of on 9-11-04, not of the RNC.
Stop typing right now and MOURN, you shameful bastards!
No, really I completely agree with most of you guys - I found the widespread, but largely unspoken "time to just let it go" atmosphere yesterday quite refreshing. It looks like before too long the date 11th of September might just be able to exist as a regular day again.
It's not as if anyone's ever going to suddenly forget about the whole thing, anyway - if you're interested in worldwide current affairs in the slightest, I doubt a single week goes by without you being reminded of it in some small way.
I think we're long past the stage where your average person should feel any obligation to go out of their way to recognise the date. I certainly didn't.
To be honest I always hate feeling obligated to feel emotions about things I'm no longer all that bothered about in any case. The whole Princess Diana fiasco was the worst example of that. I'd ceased to give more then a vague shit about the whole thing about half an hour after I heard about it, but then they had to spin it out for WEEKS, with Elton John personally going to every British person's house and forcing them to weep about it at knifepoint.
Last year, I wrote a long drawn-out thread about 9/11 (which is HERE (http://www.agsforums.com/yabb/index.php?topic=8460.0#msg103536") if anyone has the time to spare to read it).Ã, It was a very personal day for America, and for us New Yorkers in particular, and it is right that we remember the day.Ã, I know that I will.Ã, However, I definitely agree that the rest of the world doesn't need to share in our grief.
Memory is a funny thing.Ã, You used to be able to see the towers from a local park near my apartment.Ã, A few months after the attack, I went to the park and looked down at the skyline.Ã, For some weird reason, I couldn't remember where the towers were.Ã, I knew they were to the south, but I couldn't pinpoint the exact location.Ã, I don't know if my memory was just faulty, or if this was normal.
Die Commies!! :=
demorgon, when the only "worthwhile" part of your post is a smiley - maybe you shouldn't be posting?
kingsized, when the only "worthwile" part of your post is pointless - maybe you shouldn't be posting?
lets not do this please ::)
O shut up Demo, he was making a good point.
Gosh, Dave, that was an amazing story, and vividly told - enough to cut through my cynicism and drive home exactly why we have memorial days in the first place.
I hope I didn't come across as offensively blasé about the whole thing in that last post, and I certainly don't want to downplay the value of people's direct experiences.
well, I guess Im a minority here. Im an American. Im a democrat...I STILL CARE.
Yes, lots of people die every day. Yes, in fact, terrorist attacks have occured in other parts of the world since then (Spain and Russia come to mind). one of the funny things about New York in America, (or prehaps its just the midwest), is that just about everybody either lived there, or knows somebody that does. My parent's first apparment building was right next to the WTC. I dont think its there anymore. A lot of family friends were there. One was a firefighter who helped clean things up after it was over. It was scary.
I know it sounds a little bit cliche, but I think Im going to really remember 911 as a life changing day for me. I was hoping I wouldnt have to grow up in a war. I thought my country was invincible. The peace that we all had during the 1990's was shattered in an explosion on airplane. Its scary shit man. Shit always seemed to happen everywhere else. Well, everywhere else got really close to Matt Brown on 9/11.
I think that was also the day I decided I needed to go into goverment service. Im not going to join the military, but thats when I began to shed my old overly idealistic, semi-commie political beliefs, and try to learn more. I wanted to know what the hell was going on. I wanted to change the way my country is going, since I thought it was getting screwed up. I still do, and I still think I will.
I didnt spend the whole day mourning or living in fear like prehaps the folks at the RNC would have be do. I watched the news, went to a local blues festival, and then to a dance. I thought I handled things the best way: I thought about it, but kept on trucking. Thats what the county needs to do. Not forget, but not be so caught up in it that it destorys our way of life. We cant let terror win in the face of national security.
I guess thats all I better say. America isnt a very popular country it seems like on AGS for a while...
I still care also, Panda, but there's no reason for me to go posting in AGSforums about it. That's all.
Also, the US not being popular around here? We just had a mittens here and no one said "In the US?! But they did such and such!" The US is a very big part of current news and it gets talked about alot. Though I don't feel any big Anti-US sentiment from these forums.
As for peace in the 1990's, what about Kosovo and the Oklahoma City Bombing and Waco and Columbine. Rose coloured glasses and all, or you just didn't know at the time that there was stuff happening [or didn't care, I mean I was a teenager for most of it, if it didn't involve me making sweet on the ladies then why should I care?] but now that you're older you can see the scary stuff going on around you. I dunno, I'm sleepy from staring at this screen.
These are not fighting words.
well, I wasnt really refering to you Eric, it was more towards the first few posts in that thread that said I DONT CARE in big all caps letters.
Were the 1990's perfect? no, of course not. I think we have to look at this in perspective. The cold was was just won. during that decade, there were no monster threats looming. no red menace, no crazy terrorist legion, etc etc etc. The whipping boy of the 1990s wasnt communists or a national security threat, it was Bill Clinton. Big Difference. I was growing up around that time, and I know that scary stuff happened. Columbine hit close to home. but even that danger seemed fleeting, and far. I cared about Kosovo, but those events didnt really register with the US press. I was also younger during oklahoma city, and I barely rememeber waco. Im sure that if those things happened now, Id look at them differently, being much older and more politically aware. I was looking at that decade in a historical prespective.
As for the US not being popular, i was refering more to the political nature. People love the US AGSers, no doubt. Mittens, it appears, was very sucsessful. but once America is discussed in a political nature, which happens when we discuss 9/11, not so much anymore. I dunno...maybe Im being paranoid, or hanging around other internet forums too much.
I think 2004 has been a cumulative year for criticism for America. And I don't just mean internationally, but within America too. More Americans are voicing their dissatisfaction with the country, and that goes from your Michael Moores to the person on the street who thought the Iraq war was a mistake. The last few years have been a bit of a wake-up call for a lot of Americans, and from the sounds of it I think there are more and more people who want to set things right. Not because it looks good in the eyes of other countries, but because people just want a better country than what they have now.
Here in Australia, we've recently had our second "Terror on our Doorstep" attack. The first was a car-bombing in a Balinese pub in 2002, which killed 202 people (most of them Australians). The most recent one happened last week outside the Australian Embassy in Jakarta, and death toll has so far reached 10 (according to Aust Federal Police). It's ironic. We seemed to have made more out of the War in Iraq than anything closer to our homeland.
Likewise for America. I think Americans are starting to realise that not enough has been done within the homeland (and I'm not just talking national security) when compared to the focus on international conflicts since Sept 11.
One of my best friends just got married on Saturday. It was 9-11. He wanted to remeber a happy day. It was beautiful and he married someone he loves.
Shit happens. 9-11 sucked. Yeah. But someday, it will just be an event that some stoned kid is pissed off he has to read about in his textbook for his homework in 8th period History Class. That's it.
NYC has had it's share of tragedies and horriffic things it's sworn to never forget. But time heals wounds and life goes on. This is one for the books..... and a good one to let go.
Bt
Quote from: DGMacphee on Mon 13/09/2004 03:00:26
I think 2004 has been a cumulative year for criticism for America. And I don't just mean internationally, but within America too. More Americans are voicing their dissatisfaction with the country, and that goes from your Michael Moores to the person on the street who thought the Iraq war was a mistake. The last few years have been a bit of a wake-up call for a lot of Americans, and from the sounds of it I think there are more and more people who want to set things right. Not because it looks good in the eyes of other countries, but because people just want a better country than what they have now.
This is OT, but I really wish all of the people preaching that all Americans need to die on the streets of Middle-Eastern countries knew that. I wonder sometimes if they realize that a good portion of Americans feel the same way they do about our government.
EDIT:
Except that we're infidels and need to die.
Quote from: Panda: Back in Action on Mon 13/09/2004 00:08:16
...Spain and Russia come to mind). one of the funny things about New York in America, (or prehaps its just the midwest), is that just about everybody either lived there, or knows somebody that does.
You need to move out of your personal sphere, man. You can't honestly believe that people around the world feel the way you do regarding the 9/11.
Also, yes people around the world think your government and your politics are a bloody joke. That can't be too much of a shock to you.
That doesn't mean we hate everything about america or the american people, I think you're being treated just like everybody else on this forum.
We don't hate or love americans more than norwegians, germans or russians on the AGS, so just stop putting so much nationality in the context.
Quote from: shbazjinkens on Mon 13/09/2004 08:51:14
This is OT, but I really wish all of the people preaching that all Americans need to die on the streets of Middle-Eastern countries knew that. I wonder sometimes if they realize that a good portion of Americans feel the same way they do about our government.
EDIT:
Except that we're infidels and need to die.
It's a difficult situation since they've been subject to an invasion by a foreign government. It happens with most occupations. And a lot of Americans can say, "I wish they wouldn't preach death to us all" but a lot of Americans haven't had their houses bombed and family members killed by an invading Iraqi force. But I agree, though, that there should be more blame on the administration rather than the population as a whole. After all, most Americans were misled by their own government. And more Americans are realising this as each day passes. And I do hope all Iraqis come to realise this one day as well.
I also remember during both the Afghanistan War and the Iraqi War there were a lot of Americans who wanted both countries nuked without understanding the reasons behind both invasions. It's pretty much the same as Iraqi's taking to the streets and shouting "Death to infidels!"
Quote from: Evil on Sun 12/09/2004 17:06:59
My point wasnt to morn or be sad. The fact that that day pushed us into billions of dollars in debt and I didnt see one banner, or hear about it on tv at all, bothers me.
I don't know where you live but it was on all the news stations here. One station played interviews with relatives all day long. They showed the memorial with the two beams of light that can be seen for more then 50 miles. Not saying I wanted to forget but it would have been hard because here in western michigan you couldn't get away from everyone remembering it.
First of all do not support terrorism in any way and I think 9/11 was very terrible.
I think the saddest thing about 9/11 is that even though 3 years have past the American government has done absolutly nothing (at least for what i know) to figure out why a lot of people hate America so much that they are willing to kill them selves and hundreds of others for that cause.
The bush administation just keep invading new countries and killing people. Trying to find scapegoats instead of even considering their own flaws. It's no wonder that people get so desperate that they feel that the only solution is terrorism. And the simpathy that everybody had towards America after 9/11 now has turned into even more hate than before 9/11.
I still believe that no one is born evil. I believe when you see your family and friends die from hunger or war or what ever because of some money hungry nation wants to police the globe you turn desperate.
I think we'll have to remember 9/11, but i also think that we should learn from it. As well as I think we should learn from World War II and any other part of history. No one seems to do that...
Strange that there didn't seem to be much on 9/11 in America becuase there was plenty on TV here in the UK. Including a program about the "REAL" conspiracies that did 9/11 and tired to frame Osama for it ::)
Anyway, the difference between the terrorist mindset and everyone else outside America is that the terrorists hate all americans becuase of their arrogance, pervading culture, imperialism, hypocrisy and the war on iraq. Eveyone else only hates Republicans, but for the same reasons.
Quote from: SSH on Mon 13/09/2004 15:59:02
Eveyone else only hates Republicans, but for the same reasons.
I wouldn't say everyone only hates republicans (I could name a few good ones).It's just the current administration that's giving republicans a very bad name (even more so than usual).
Don't mess up my pithy hyperbole with the facts, man! :=
My real question is why do people support kerry? If they are anti war then why would they vote for kerry? He bragged about vietnam for crying outloud! He wont end thw war, he will support it!
Do you follow politics at all LostTraveler or are you just making huge assumptions based on no knowledge?
You need to research more, Losttraveler (although you're partly right)
Kerry's experiences in the Vietnam war made him realise it was bad, and made him join the anti-war movement.
Some people say it's because he's an ambivalent muddlehead, a traitor even; others might argue that he simply reached an insight.
Apart from that, the main reason to vote Kerry would be simply to get rid of Bush. It doesn't seem to happen though.
Quote from: LostTraveler on Mon 13/09/2004 20:47:16
My real question is why do people support kerry? If they are anti war then why would they vote for kerry? He bragged about vietnam for crying outloud! He wont end thw war, he will support it!
He very well might support the war.Ã, But he would be a step away from extreme conservatism, which is what the US government needs right now- rather then a leap to the right with Bush.
By "bragging about Vietnam" do you mean how he played up the fact that he fought and Bush did not?Ã, [ Uh, not everyone who fought in Vietnam supported the war, I'm afraid.Ã, Ever hear of the draft? ]
He also plays up his Vietnam experience because his country is already occupying Iraq.Ã, The majority of voters will vote for someone who has experience with military procedures over a man with none.Ã, It makes them feel safer, even though they're probably aware that the president is guided by a number of staff members.Ã, No one wants a beatnik when the fires are already raging.
Yes Eric, I follow politics.
Kingsized, By bragging I mean he is overusing it as his campaign stratagy. I know perfectly well about the draft, but why would Kerry use his war expierence as pne of the key reason to vote for him unless he supports it. The liberals I associate with support him because they think he will end the war. A peace maker doesnt discuss his war expierences for more then a few times. There is nothing wrong with being right winged, there is nothing wrong withe being left winged. I just feel that with this man america will be worse the before. One of his key advisors would be his wife, the heinz lady, who has stated her hatred twords america openly, and edwards. If edwards is such a great guy who helps the children the how could this trial lawyer take millions from them, he chased wheelchairs to make his living.
Lost traveller.
if you did know anything about politics in the U.S. youd realise there are only two choices. the person who started the war, and the one who didnt, who do you think the anti war peoiple are going to vote for? its not a question of who is the better president, its a question of who is not bush.
Hm, I suppose this was bound to turn into a political discussion.Ã, Here's my two cents.
If the republican party is good at anything, it's putting a positive spin on things.Ã, Last year, they estimated that we'd be over $480 billion dollars in debt.Ã, Turns out we're $420 billion dollars in debt.Ã, Instead of worrying about it, or trying to fix it, their spokesmen get on TV and say, “Look!Ã, We're $60 billion dollars better off then we thought we would be!Ã, We're doing great, and it's all because of our strong decisive leadership, etc…â€Ã, Ã, What makes this so incredibly sad is that the majority of Americans fall for it.Ã,Â
As for Kerry, it's not a matter of “I fought in Vietnam, so vote for me.â€Ã, He didn't just fight in Vietnam, he was a highly-decorated war hero.Ã, He won three purple hearts for bravery, among other awards.Ã, And still he campaigned against the Vietnam war in the 70s because he realized how pointless it was.Ã, The fact that he is a decorated war veteran who knows the facts â€" and horrors - of war should count for a lot.Ã, Unfortunately, its not.Ã, The Bush camp is making Kerry out to be a coward and (stupidly enough) a traitor, and it's working.Ã, It's kind of admirable that Kerry is taking the high-road and not going on the offensive, but it makes him look like a wimp in the process.Ã,Â
I think Kerry would make a fine president, but it won't happen because the man can't campaign worth a damn.Ã, The democrats should have stuck with Howard Dean.