Webpage Help - Orphaned pages

[Alynn]

Ok so I've been working on my webpage off and on for months now... and at first I went with a entire table page, and after putting in all the information, I realized that most my pages had WAAAAY too much info on them, so I had to break them down, and the only way for it to look presentable in this form was to use frames (yeah yeah groan... I know, but deal with it). This also helps with the fact that I do have limited bandwith, and the big page (like the header with all the graphic buttons) only has to load once.

This leaves the problem with robots, since I have my sidebars and header, and footer page set for noindex and follow, leaving the main content pages, which while indexed, will probably show up in a webpage, and when clicked won't show the header and sidebar for the easy navigation part...

I found a solution for orphaned pages such as these works like this...

The Orphan Page

Code: ags

<script language="javascript">
passpage = document.URL 
if (top.location == self.location) 
top.location.href="http://www.yelloweyedstudio.com/master.html?" + passpage
</script>

The master.html page

Code: ags

origURL = parent.document.URL
contentURL = origURL.substring(origURL.indexOf('?')+1, origURL.length)
checkURL = contentURL.substring(contentURL.indexOf('m')+2, contentURL.indexOf('m')+5)

if (checkURL == "MUD"){
Ã,  sideURL = 'http://www.yelloweyedstudio.com/MUD/mud_sidebar.html'
Ã,  innerCols = '250, *'
}
else if (checkURL == "pro"){
Ã,  sideURL = 'http://www.yelloweyedstudio.com/projects/projects_sidebar.html'
Ã,  innerCols = '183, *'
}
else if (checkURL == "cam"){
Ã,  sideURL = 'http://www.yelloweyedstudio.com/campaign/campaign_sidebar.html'
Ã,  innerCols = '250, *'
}

document.write('<frameset framespacing="0" border="0" frameborder="0" rows="189,*,35" ID="outer"><frame name="top" scrolling="no" resize="auto" target="contents" marginwidth="3" marginheight="0" src="header.html" noresize><frameset cols="183,*" ID="inner"><frame name="contents" target="main" marginwidth="3" marginheight="0" scrolling="auto" noresize src="' + sideURL + '"><frame name="main" scrolling="auto" marginwidth="3" marginheight="0" src="' + contentURL + '"></frameset><frame name="bottom" scrolling="no" noresize target="contents" marginwidth="3" marginheight="0" src="footer.html">')
parent.inner.cols= innerCols

Basically, the master page checks to see what subfolder it is in, then sets the inner column width, and loads the correct sidebar, then places the accessed page into the content window...

It just doesn't seem very... elegant, and it places a long url like
http://www.yelloweyedstudio.com/master.html?http://www.yelloweyedstudio.com/MUD/mud.html

Which plays havoc on bookmarking... Does anyone know a better way, something with as little scripting as we have here, but less... Obtrusive... And yes I know I can cut down the URL to just the MUD/mud.html, but it still presents the same problem.

So what I have is something that works, but doesn't work as nice as I'd prefer... so if you have any other suggestions... let me know.

[SSH]

Use divs and CSS instead of evil frames or tables. See ssh.me.uk for an example of a very simple layout. A decent free editor like Nvu is good for setting these up. But you can also look at mod_perl to change normal URLs into wierd scripty ones

[Alynn]

Yes I know... I've been told... But I used DIV's before and it gave a very jumbled appearance... There are some sections of this site that have insane amounts of information, to the point that using DIV's (or tables) gives a very jumbled, busy appearance. Hence why I went with frames.

[Oneway]

One of your assumptions, that your graphical banner is loaded on every page request, is false. Browsers use cache memory to temporarily store images and scripts and stuff (and search bots don't load images). Whenever a subsequent request to a webserver is made where the same image/script/whatever is used, the browser gets is from the disk cache instead of downloading it again. So no worries there.

Second, the use of frames is pretty much out of date and i really think you should reconsider if the searchengine results are that important to you. The use of javascript to create vital page-content is a very dangerous one. I don't really know if search engine bots support it, but i'm sure not all do, in wich case you're severly screwed.
Also, i don't know what resolution you designed the page for, but on 1024 x 768 the lefthand menu needed horizontal scrolling, which is a big no-no in almost every case.

What i suggest is this:
Organise your menus with the help of submenus. Here are some links that can help you figure out how to organise those enormous amounts of menu items:
http://www.opencube.com/
http://www.twinhelix.com/dhtml/fsmenu/
http://www.twinhelix.com/dhtml/popupmenu/
http://www.smartmenus.org/

Drop the javascript, and try to use PHP instead. PHP allows you to do your sorting much more elegantly than Javascript AND it isn't browser dependant. If your webhoster supports it (wich is almost standard nowadays) it'll work regardless of what browser (or search-bot) makes the page-request.

PHP also allows for seperation of content, just like you're doing with frames now. You can include the header and menu files with one line of code.

<? include('header.html');include('menu.html'); ?>

Combined with one of the menusystems above, you'll be able to get the all the benefits you get by using frames AND no more hassle with search engines.

Good luck!

[MashPotato]

I'm not sure if this would be considered a hijack of this thread (I hope it's not ^_^), but I have a somewhat related question so I figured I'd plunk it down here...

Until I read this thread, I didn't realize that frames were generally frowned upon (I'm not a particularly internet-savvy person)... so I googled it, and now understand why this is.Ã,  My website uses frames, and I'm wondering whether it is worth it to change it to be frame-free, considering that:
1) I don't think there is anything on my website that would make it appear high on search engine lists
2) viewers would not be printing anything from my site
3) my website gets very little traffic in the first place

I am only concerned about whether users will be able to view my site properly.Ã,  I know some browsers are not frames-compatible, but is this a significant number?Ã,  Is there anything else about frames that would result in people having problems navigating the site that I may not be aware of?

Thanks ^_^

[Alynn]

Actually, any of the pages you see that need scrolling are probably the ones not finished. At 1024X768 or 800X600 there is no horizontal scrollbar, with only one exception of my campaign world map, which I will probably need to shrink down some (but it loses alot of detail unfortunately).

Javascript really makes no vital content at all, it just loads a page that was accessed directly into the correct frameset, nothing more. My menus and header are link followed but not indexed, leaving the actual content pages the only ones a search engine will show (this isn't so much for massive traffic, much of the info is content specific so only a few people I know even have interest in the info (like the builders documentation), it's more of a, if anyone needs the info and happens to find it on my site then good for them, thing.

And belive me if you saw all my submenus you'd know they are actually organized. Each header button at the top has a subfolder, with each link bar item with it's own folder... and so on and so forth...

I'll look into the php, but frankly I didn't really want to look into learning another language. But most likely I'll find the code snippet I need with a google search. I really just didn't want to do a full site redesign... AGAIN.

Anyway thanks... I'll look into it.

[Oneway]

Actually, any of the pages you see that need scrolling are probably the ones not finished. At 1024X768 or 800X600 there is no horizontal scrollbar...

It was the menu that needed sidescrolling for me, because of the many submenu items.

Javascript really makes no vital content at all, it just loads a page that was accessed directly into the correct frameset, nothing more.

Using Javascript to generate a frameset seems like pretty vital content to me.

And belive me if you saw all my submenus you'd know they are actually organized. Each header button at the top has a subfolder, with each link bar item with it's own folder... and so on and so forth...

I have seen your menus and yes they are organised, but not organised in such a way that you'd be able to find what you're looking for fast. Especially the menus for the MUD and D&D pages are so full of submenus that it's easy to lose track of what submenu you're scrolling through.

I'll look into the php, but frankly I didn't really want to look into learning another language. But most likely I'll find the code snippet I need with a google search. I really just didn't want to do a full site redesign... AGAIN.

haha, if the arguments in my first post weren't desicive for you, then i don't think it'll be worth the trouble. If this is your only website, or if building websites isn't really your thing or hobby then it would probably be a little overkill, even if you were to only learn up on the things you needed and not the entire language.

Anyway, good luck with the page whatever you decide to do with it.

[Alynn]

I started playing with that Opencube program for making a menu, and it looks good, but god 150 bucks for it?!? But at least I can save the one I have been working on.

The webpage itself is nothing more than an outlet for whatever the hell I feel like putting there really, I've had it for 6 months and you see how little I have really done... the main focus was the MUD stuff, since I've been promising to reorganize the builders docs for awhile, and I finally did it... all my underling builders really like the new look and ease of finding the info (the origional docs was a single page of info, which was a pain to search through and try to find, lucky them, thats what I had to learn to build from... And basically all the stuff I get asked (mostly about mobprogs), are answered here, which is great because I no longer get asked the same questions over and over...

But there is tons of info, and thats where I'm running into trouble, it looks bad with single div pages... but I think if I create this menu and use an include I may be able to make it a bit better, which is to say more organized and streamlined, with minimal changes in my already existing pages.

I think another reason I went with frames is it was just easier to make changes to one page instead of all of them if I had to change the links at the top or a menu item on the side, but if I get this menu working right, then I won't have to worry about it anymore... I'll just use includes on all my pages, but I guess we'll see...