A discussion about controversial videos on the interweb.

[DGMacphee]

What I was objecting to was the bringing of pornography into this discussion at all.

Ah, I understand. I brought porn into the discussion to demonstrate why exploitation of such rape and assult videos are morally bad without question, why the exploitation is so sinister compared to exploitation in other areas.

Perhaps it was a little tasteless to bring pornography into the comparison but I was just trying to show another situation where sexual gratification was being filmed and acceptable in society to draw a conclusion.

[2ma2]

Consider a video where a girl is on a substance that she doesn't know what's going on at all - and being gangbanged by a group of willing males.

Rape or porn? These videos do exist and are categorised as porn.

[Nacho]

I think you mean webpages publishing videos of "american drunk university parties" where a group of guys intimate with a "drunken girl". The common consense is that the "drink girl" is a porn actress faking her drunkness... It is very suspectous that this guys get a "drunken" girl each week, and no one of this girls goes to the police and sue this webpages for publishing a porn video of her without consent.

If you are talking of another issue... well, it might be catalogued as porn, but it' s still illegal if it commits any illegallity... I agree that it is despicable. I am talking of "legal" porn. I still think that you are extending "grey areas" of an industry to the whole industry. It' s like saying that all the cyclists use drugs or that all the rockstars use heroin, or that all the graphic artists like to "explore the hidden parts of the brain" with LSD... I can agree partially, but I think you are being unfair.

[DGMacphee]

Yeah, I agree with Nacho -- you might find such videos on porn sites but those videos still constitute rape because sex is being forced. Like you said, "she doesn't know what's going on at all" and it's taking advantage of her. Hence, it's rape.

2ma2, I think you know perfectly well what I mean when I say "consentual sex" and "pornography". When I say pornography, I'm talking studio-based pornography, where it's a part of an actual commercial enterprise that utilises proper actors and actresses a la Boogie Nights. Not "hey lets get a chick so drugfucked that she passes out and we film us having sex with her" videos. To me, the video you suggest don't constitute what I'm talking about in terms of willingly giving consent to participate in sex for a film.

[Raggit]

My sister goes to college with these people: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-IByf-7KL0

[HillBilly]

My sister goes to college with these people: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-IByf-7KL0

Now that's some serious husband material right there.

[Helm]

Setting your own nipples on fire?? I've done some stupid things on dares, but that's a bit... apocryphal, really.

[2ma2]

"I still think that you are extending "grey areas" of an industry to the whole industry."

But that's what I said when bringing up the discussion in the first place. As spoken; I will not say that all porn is forced sex, but consent can be motivated by a variety of reasons, upon which all ain't that morally justifiable. And the most common factor is drug abuse.

[Tuomas]

I saw an educational film on the internet yesterday. Won't link though because  it's in Finnish so I don't think it'd open to most of you. If someone wants to see it, just ask me. Anyway, it was about these misunderstandings that happen in internet when the users are not quite aware how bad it is what they're doing. So there were two paedophiles meeting each other after a date arrangement in a chat place.

then there was this video of a guy who took a photo of his friend, a girl from this Finnish version to myspace, irc-gallery, and cut the head of it, pasted to a naked picture and printed it. He thought it was funny and sent it to all of his friends, and soon the school walls were full of fake naked pictures of that girl.

[DGMacphee]

"I still think that you are extending "grey areas" of an industry to the whole industry."

But that's what I said when bringing up the discussion in the first place. As spoken; I will not say that all porn is forced sex, but consent can be motivated by a variety of reasons, upon which all ain't that morally justifiable. And the most common factor is drug abuse.

Where's your proof that the most common factor is drug abuse? Show me a report that links the two. If you're going to make a claim like that, provide evidence.

I checked the US Meese commission report on the porn industry, published in 1986. This was just after cocaine usage peaked in 1982.

One of the things that the Meese report says is this:

Economic Circumstances

If it is not possible to speak with certainty about the family backgrounds of the young women and men who become "models," it nevertheless seems clear what chiefly motivates their decision to appear in sexuallyexplicit material: financial need. As one former model put it when asked why most women enter nude modeling:

    A lot of women are hurt or crazy women under stress. Yes, most women come in under a lot of stress. They're usually desperate when they first come in-maybe they need money for some emergency, like I did, or they've gone as long as they can doing odds and ends or working at (menial) jobs, and they finally just have to pay their bills. I met a woman whose kid was in the hospital, and I met lots of women who were financially strapped. There were also many illegal aliens there who couldn't work regular jobs even if they had the skills because they didn't have their green cards.... [T]hey certainly know how to get you to do what they want. Some women are so bad off that they just go immediately into hard-core films.[984]

One prominent model recently described her entry into the business in similar though less sympathetic terms.

    I had a sugar daddy who was, you know, keeping me. Paying for everything. I didn't need a dime of my own and never had to work. Then I guess his wife found out, and he ran back to her, breaking it off with me. I was out in the cold. Then a friend of his asked me if I was interested in doing some masturbation stuff on video. I needed the money and said okay.[985]

Although not a universal feature of models' accounts,[986] with striking regularity they speak of money and dire financial need as critical factors in their decision to model.[987] In the words of one now famous former model who was "literally starving" when he made an X-rated film: "It was either make that movie or rob someone"[988] As a representative of United States Prostitutes Collective put it: "For women working in the sex industry, prostitution and pornography are about money, not sex "[989] Not surprisingly, Professor Russell found that women who had been asked to appear in pornography were significantly poorer than other women in her sample.[990] From what we have learned about the rigors and risks of sex modeling, it is difficult to imagine any overriding motive other than serious economic need for such a momentous decision.[991]

Consider this: nowhere in that section does it say that drug use is a motivating factor. it's just simply finacial needs: pay the bills, buy food to eat. No where does it mention anything to do with pre-existing drug use as a decision to enter into the industry. And you'd think that something as negative as drugs were a motivating factor, they'd mention it in this section. It is, after all, a Reagan-era government report. And critics have said it's heavily biased towards the anti-porn movement. But no mention of drugs in Economic Circumstances!

Now consider what the same section says about drug use within the industry at the time:

Drug Use

Along with the insidious threat of infectious disease, models face a more overt challenge to their physical health: drug use, and in particular, use of cocaine. Few aspects of the world of pornographic modeling seem less free from doubt than the dependence of most performers, at one time or another, on cocaine. The view of one prominent model that in her world "everybody goes through a drug stage"[1036] is perhaps overstated; but involvement of a substantial majority of performers in the use of cocaine seems highly probable.[1037] In the opinion of at least one model, drugs are necessary in her work because "you have to hide, you have to keep your feelings and emotions from being completely destroyed. Each day [in the industry] erodes them away."[1038] It is true that Mr. Les Baker, President of the Adult Film Association of America labelled the problem of drug abuse in his industry a "misconception," contending that such abuse "is a universal problem and we of the A.F.A.A. just a small part thereof."[1039] For him drug usage by pornographic models is simply part of an infection spreading through the whole "entertainment industry."[1040] William Margold put it somewhat more positively:

    I know that drugs are in my industry. I know that drugs are in almost any form of creative people. Some people seem to need them to do whatever they have to do.[1041]

We of course are in no position to compare the severity of drug abuse in the pornography industry with that in other fields; it is sufficient simply to note that by all accounts such abuse exists and inflicts serious damage on those it touches.[1042]

Notice that: the report doesn't compare drug use in the porn industry to any other industry at the time. Also, while they have individual testimony from porn actors with drug problems, no where does it mention any force of drugs within the industry. It existed, but it pretty much existed in many industries in the US anyway, not just porn!

But to be fair, the report contains a section on organised crime within the industry, and cocaine distributed to models to "lower their inhibitions and to create a dependency". Funds from films were also used to finance drug smuggling.

But keep in mind, it was the 80s and there's no quantifiable data to show what percentage of the industry were using drugs or how this compares to other creative industries. I mean, how does cocaine usage in the adult film industry compare with the normal film industry? In fact, I think it's fair to say a lot of people, not just in the adult film industry, were jacked up on coke and had a dependency. (And my figure from 1982 is proof of this).

However, I still think it's a myth to say drug use is the most common reason why porn models "give their consent". As the Meese report says, it's mostly financial need and nothing to do with supporting a drug habit. I think if supporting drug habits were a major factor for models to enter the industry, there'd be some mention of it in the Economic Circumstances section.

Now let's look at today. A lot has changed since the 80s in the US. The spread of AIDS in the US lead to the deaths of numerous actors, which shows how intravenous drug use is detrimental to the industry. Now if you're a the owner of porn business, wouldn't you go out of your way to stop intravenous drug use so that you models wouldn't infect each other (occupational hazzard?).

There's now an Adult Industry Medical Health Care Foundation, established in 1998, with a view to decrease the spread of STDs in the industry. While their website doesn't seem to mention any programs to stop drug use, they do offer porn companies industry-standard health checks for all workers. Like I said, STDs like AIDS are detrimental to the industry and if I were the owner of a porn empire I'd make damn sure there'd be nothing to cause a decline within my industry. Porn moguls know that drugs are bad for their business and have admitted so (see the above Meese section on Drug Use). There was already an AIDS scare in 2004 that resulted in four infections and a two month industry-led moratorium on production while they got everyone checked. It's doubtful the industry would support anything that would hurt their business in this way. That's just logical.

But for more proof, consider my home state: Queensland, Australia. We have a legalised sex industry, complete with government regulated standards. This includes health checking for STDs and drug use. The sex workers even have a union, if my memory serves correctly. But the main thing is this: no drugs in the industry. It's legitimate and clean (though some might have moral objections).

I've said it before; porn is exploitive. There are better ways out there to make a living. I don't recommend to anyone to enter the industry because I feel giving up your dignity isn't worth it for that particular industry. That's my choice and my value. However, it is not my right to make decisions for others. If other people choose to enter the industry, that is their decision. However, I think it is a myth to say that people most commonly enter the industry to support drug abuse. And the evidence I've provided demonstrates this. In fact, I've even provided sections from a heavily biased Reagan-era anti-porn report that show there's no proof that people enter the industry because of drugs.

Unless of course, you can provide a report that states the opposite, 2ma2.

And in this case, choosing to do sex films to buy food and pay rent is NOWHERE IN THE SAME LEAGUE OF EVIL as a bunch of people forcing you down, raping you and filming it.

[Helm]

First of all, thank you, DG for posting lucidly and clearly on the subject, without any snarky 'this is the internet!' humour and stuff, for the first time in ages it's been a joy to read one of your posts.

However, I still think it's a myth to say drug use is the most common reason why porn models "give their consent". As the Meese report says, it's mostly financial need and nothing to do with supporting a drug habit. I think if supporting drug habits were a major factor for models to enter the industry, there'd be some mention of it in the Economic Circumstances section.

Now let's look at today. A lot has changed since the 80s in the US. The spread of AIDS in the US lead to the deaths of numerous actors, which shows how intravenous drug use is detrimental to the industry. Now if you're a the owner of porn business, wouldn't you go out of your way to stop intravenous drug use so that you models wouldn't infect each other (occupational hazzard?).

I'd like you to consider two things:

You are providing facts about the american porn industry. In other parts of the world (read: former eastern bloc for example) things aren't as... transparent, industrious and clean as this. A lot of the porn, especially online, is fringe porn (because internet users are sexually problematic, different discussion) so there's a lot of stuff you... wouldn't want to see out there. And it includes drug use, underage participators, non-consentual intercourse and worse. I'm just saying, it pays to remember the US aren't the only ones making porn, but they really are the only country with a prevailing porn industry, in true american-way fashion.

The other thing:

Besides the pragmatist approach shown in the cited reports -which aren't incorrect as far as I can tell -  consider the mental state in which a woman must be to participate in sexual acts, some of them highly specialized or odd, on screen. It might be for money alright, but a lot of people would resort to drugs (I wouldn't say heroin, but coke, even crack is said to be quite hot in the industry still) just so they can do what they do on-screen. I can tell for certain I've seen women stoned the hell out of their minds in porn, and it's no big secret. Whatever gets you through the day, right? They need the money, right?

Having your body invaded is a big deal, it's not a business transaction, and special care should be paid to understanding the psychological situation of the people that find themselves having to do all this.


Interesting topic.

[monkey0506]

Having only read the first post... I think it's sick that those kids would do that to somebody. That's not even funny.

What about the myriad of other videos circulating the entertainment sites?  People breaking bones in stupid stunts, tearing each other up, lighting themselves on fire, and just generally behaving badly.

However, in regard to these videos, where people are intentionally putting themselves in harm's way, with "stupid stunts" and "lighting themselves on fire," I think it's pretty funny. If someone is actually dumb enough to attempt these types of things, I think they deserve whatever they get.

[Nacho]

@ Helm. You are probably right about the distinction about porn (female) stars in America and Europe... I remember Nacho Vidal saying in an interview that "American girls want to be 21 to be pornstars... they want it, they get brest implants and they preppair for it, its their dream and they consider theirselves artists... Whereas in Europe it's different, 90% of them are prostitutes"

The truth is that nobody in this forums (I think...) know that world deeply... We just can guess and tell what we think we know about it. That can applied to 90% of the threads in gen gen, hehe, but well... maybe here our lack of knowleadge is bigger. Sex is still a taboo, I guess.

I personally preffer arty genre over gonzo, or B&D and all that twisted genres... I can agree with Linus and Helm that the grey areas in that genres are probably more darker than in the genre I like.

And 2ma2, sorry for saying that you are extending the grey areas to the whole industry when you specifically said you were going to do that in the first place... I missed that line.Ã, 

[DGMacphee]

First of all, thank you, DG for posting lucidly and clearly on the subject, without any snarky 'this is the internet!' humour and stuff, for the first time in ages it's been a joy to read one of your posts.

Firstly, while I'm pleased you thanked me, I find it a little backhanded and condescending. This thread is being well-discussed on a good topic. The other thread, the "debate" about the all-girl game creation group, was a nightmare. I felt I posted appropriately.

Secondly, DICK JOKES!!!1!

I'd like you to consider two things:

You are providing facts about the american porn industry. In other parts of the world (read: former eastern bloc for example) things aren't as... transparent, industrious and clean as this. A lot of the porn, especially online, is fringe porn (because internet users are sexually problematic, different discussion) so there's a lot of stuff you... wouldn't want to see out there. And it includes drug use, underage participators, non-consentual intercourse and worse. I'm just saying, it pays to remember the US aren't the only ones making porn, but they really are the only country with a prevailing porn industry, in true american-way fashion.

While I agree that my post covers mainly the US porn industry, I still see your post as speculation. Do you have anything to back up what you're saying? Any reports that show that drug use is directly linked to people entering into non-consentual intercourse for commerical film products?

See, I'm not oblivious. I do agree that it happens. But just not to the degree that you and 2ma2 suggest. However, if you can provide something to back up your position, I would concede to it.

The other thing:

Besides the pragmatist approach shown in the cited reports -which aren't incorrect as far as I can tell -  consider the mental state in which a woman must be to participate in sexual acts, some of them highly specialized or odd, on screen. It might be for money alright, but a lot of people would resort to drugs (I wouldn't say heroin, but coke, even crack is said to be quite hot in the industry still) just so they can do what they do on-screen. I can tell for certain I've seen women stoned the hell out of their minds in porn, and it's no big secret. Whatever gets you through the day, right? They need the money, right?

Once again, this is speculation. Also, this doesn't demonstrate illicit drugs as a motivating factor for people entering the porn industry. Your view only shows that drugs sustain people who are already participants.

[Helm]

Read you on the condescending thing, I didn't intend it as such. I have a hard time being polite in some ways, I consider much beating-around-the-bush to be hypocritical, really. I ment what you read: I've read a lot of posts by you, not only on the girl game maker thread that made me want to pull my hair out (a lot of pulling) because of the attitude. I'm just glad this isn't at all like this, for whichever reasons, and I'd be happy if it continued like that. That's all. I don't want to make this a discussion about your internet habits, just a sidepoint.


I never said that drug use forces people into the industry. In fact, I'd say that especially heroin drug use would probably destroy the assets a porn uhh.. person would be trying to keep in good condition, as they are their livelihood. What I said is that what you see on screen might not be as 'clean' as it might seem. It's a whole different mood when you think that this person on screen isn't enjoying consensual sex with a partner, but is stoned demolished and thinking about god knows what while 3 people who would never get hard if it werent for miracle blue pills just keep plugging away until a director says cut for lunch. This isn't really much of a point against anything, as I am not so much interested in taking a side and making a stand, it's just about how reality can be interpreted by different people. The porn industry (and non-industry) is such a great model of human behaviour to inspect, for why it came to be, why it endures, for the ones participating in it and the ones debating the relative merits and demerits of it outside the pandora's box. 

And of course I'm speculating, as I am just sharing a point of view. I have no data to back up my speculation but I present it because I consider it both likely and interesting for debate.

[DGMacphee]

Read you on the condescending thing, I didn't intend it as such. I have a hard time being polite in some ways, I consider much beating-around-the-bush to be hypocritical, really. I ment what you read: I've read a lot of posts by you, not only on the girl game maker thread that made me want to pull my hair out (a lot of pulling) because of the attitude. I'm just glad this isn't at all like this, for whichever reasons, and I'd be happy if it continued like that. That's all. I don't want to make this a discussion about your internet habits, just a sidepoint.

Okay, I get what you're saying. While I don't mean for some of my posts to be hair-pulling (though I can understand how they can be seen that way), I strive more so for a direct honesty, regardless of attitude. If I think something sucks, I'll say it sucks. Much the same way you consider beating-around-the-bush to be hypocritical.

But, upon re-reading your previous post, I do understand there's a genuineness to what you were saying, which I do appreciate. I can't guarantee all my posts won't make you pulling your hair out. But I am glad you can see gentleman within the goofball.

Now on to more serious matters...

What I said is that what you see on screen might not be as 'clean' as it might seem. It's a whole different mood when you think that this person on screen isn't enjoying consensual sex with a partner, but is stoned demolished and thinking about god knows what while 3 people who would never get hard if it werent for miracle blue pills just keep plugging away until a director says cut for lunch.

I do agree that not everything in front of the camera is peachy, but what I'm saying is I think it's not to the extent that is being purported in this thread. That's why I stated that it's more of a myth that porn is driven mostly by drug use. Hence why I had an issue with 2ma2's claim that "the most common factor is drug abuse". I mean, if someone makes a big claim like that you'd think "Okay, where's this statement come from? What makes it true?"

[SSH]

That's why I stated that it's more of a myth that porn is driven mostly by drug use. Hence why I had an issue with 2ma2's claim that "the most common factor is drug abuse". I mean, if someone makes a big claim like that you'd think "Okay, where's this statement come from? What makes it true?"

Obviously 2ma2 runs a porn production company and uses this casting method himself... 

[shitar]

www.hornybluecups.com

[Helm]

Forgot this one.

I do agree that not everything in front of the camera is peachy, but what I'm saying is I think it's not to the extent that is being purported in this thread. That's why I stated that it's more of a myth that porn is driven mostly by drug use. Hence why I had an issue with 2ma2's claim that "the most common factor is drug abuse". I mean, if someone makes a big claim like that you'd think "Okay, where's this statement come from? What makes it true?"

Yes, I agree that it's one of these things that seem rational but might not hold up to factual scrutiny. I don't really point the finger at drug dependency for the growth of sexual exploitation both on-camera and off-camera, I point the finger at uh, human nature I guess. Sexual commerce will never go out of style because there's always going to be demand. On these things as far as state law goes I tend to side with transparency and legality so in the same way I think people should be free to take whatever drugs they want, they can sell their body in whatever way they want, just as long as the processes are clear, regulated, open to public scrutiny and critique, and nobody forces me to like it.

Huge subject I'm opening now, but for many years I've knee-jerked morally to the concept of a state allowing drug use and regulating the profits from such commerce, but in the end I don't have any convincing argument against any of that. I don't see any distinction between cigarettes and heroin besides the utilitarian one -one is more dangerous- so right, it should be monitored closer, but I can't strike the moral hammer down on someone that wants to take heroin or whatever. I think that the pathology of these practises will only be lessened not by being made illegal but by economical and cultural prosperity.

From that point of view, as saddening as the porn industry of america is, it's probably the model that othe european countries and such should probably move towards. Cleaner and safer, organized and regulated rather than underground and god-knows-what.