Adventure Games Design Research Project - Need Opinions - Thanks ;)

[Ghost]

Braid is a very good game indeed, but I wouldn't call it an adventure game. It's a genre mix borrowing from adventure as well as jump and run, but at the core it is a puzzle game that focusses on one core mechanic, time manipulation. In a puzzle game, the puzzles are the main challenge and the main reason for playing the game, while in an adventure, the story is more prominent. Yes, there IS a story in Braid, and it's even one that encourages discussion, but I wouldn't say people play Braid for the philosophical statements. They play it for the clever puzzles.
A classic adventure game, at least as I see it, can throw in all sorts of puzzles but always, really always needs a plot to tie it together, as well as fleshed-out characters. In addition to that, puzzles usually are much more varied (though, of course, they can be reduced to a couple of genres too).

You could take all the puzzles out of, say, Gabriel Knight and would still have a few memorable characters and an interesting episode of crime/mystery fiction. Do the same with Braid, and all you're left with is a loading screen.

[*takes cover*]

[Layabout]

I wouldn't consider Braid to be a casual game at all really. It has bloody difficult puzzles, an obscure, layered, pretentious story and a painterly art style.

That's not saying I don't like the game, I like it very much (well, except the story, it's being pretentious for pretentious sake IMO, although the obvious story is a great twist on the traditional save the princess shit).

And from what I heard rather successful. Sales of over $4Mil if my sources are correct.

[miguel]

Braid has nothing to do with a conventional adventure game. It's a platform game like Mario that allows you to reverse actions, that's it. Nice graphics though.



[*takes cover where ghost is and tells him that the coast is clear*]

[Atelier]

I've only played the demo for Braid, not the full version, and I also think that the way it's structured makes it very successful. There's no need to be stuck - you could just run straight to the exit on the other side and keep on going if you wanted to. (Which is what I did. )

I'd like to see more games like Braid. The atmosphere created by the music and graphics is very good, also.

[virtualpsycho]

Excellent stuff lads  :o

Absolutely delighted with feedback. Keep 'em comin'
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Just an update,

so far I have some members of Cyanide Studios submitting opinions along with some of the development team working on the second title in the witcher games series.

Any other companies want to help out?
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All submissions are greatly appreciated, thank you.

[Igor Hardy]

Braid is a very good game indeed, but I wouldn't call it an adventure game. It's a genre mix borrowing from adventure as well as jump and run, but at the core it is a puzzle game that focusses on one core mechanic, time manipulation. In a puzzle game, the puzzles are the main challenge and the main reason for playing the game, while in an adventure, the story is more prominent. Yes, there IS a story in Braid, and it's even one that encourages discussion, but I wouldn't say people play Braid for the philosophical statements. They play it for the clever puzzles.
A classic adventure game, at least as I see it, can throw in all sorts of puzzles but always, really always needs a plot to tie it together, as well as fleshed-out characters. In addition to that, puzzles usually are much more varied (though, of course, they can be reduced to a couple of genres too).

You could take all the puzzles out of, say, Gabriel Knight and would still have a few memorable characters and an interesting episode of crime/mystery fiction. Do the same with Braid, and all you're left with is a loading screen.

[*takes cover*]

To me puzzles are integral to adventure games. Much more to adventure games like Myst than Gabriel Knight, but even in that one there would be very little fun left if you'd take the puzzles out.

Braid has varied puzzles from what I've seen of it - they are not all based on the same or similar mechanics as World of Goo for example is. Many times it's not even about modifying the time flow.

I still think Braid is pretty much an adventure game disguised as a platform game. If the plot is scarce in it, it may be described as an adventure game with not much of a plot, but the core game mechanics are the same (or almost the same).

[Layabout]

I still think Braid is pretty much an adventure game disguised as a platform game. If the plot is scarce in it, it may be described as an adventure game with not much of a plot, but the core game mechanics are the same (or almost the same).

Not really. Braid is a platform game with puzzle elements.

Yes both sort of use Puzzles to drive the game and narrative forward, but that does not make Braid an adventure game. Games with puzzles do not make that game an adventure game.

Just because it has a more fleshed out story than most platform games (albiet still one that kinda feels tacked on), it is still a platform game. Platform games are allowed to have a storyline, not just adventure games.

The core selling mechanic is to be able to run and jump. The time travel elements are just an extension on this, and as it is, it would only really work in a platform game format since an adventure game doing the same thing would be too slow and an 1st/3rd person view would be far too difficult to perform the required actions.

It's pointless saying 'oh but it does this, so it must be an adventure game' when the core gameplay relies on mechanics from platform games.

Also, Ghost, if you took the puzzles from a traditional adventure game, you would be left with a badly paced story and not a fun game. The Story is the reward for solving puzzles. And this is why we play games. Rewards. It is why the added rewards that come with console achievements are so popular. People like being told they are great. People like that feeling of achievement.

[miguel]

Although I agree with you Layabout, about Braid not being an adventure,
I have to say that in some cases the story/plot of an adventure game can keep a player glued to the screen and the puzzles are just in the way, stalling time.
When playing the MI series (all of them) I remember clicking everything just to ear something funny by Guybrush. Gabriel Knight's 3rd instalment did the same, the story and characters were very mature and had a relation between them. In that case, the Sidney  puzzles (a computer used to solve/investigate stuff) although hard, were interesting and logical.
In the old days what I really wanted to see was the next room and its graphics, the colours, the mood. Every time a puzzle showed up I just went on with it, specially the KQ puzzles were you'd find rings under trees and swords lying around for no reason. You just had to search for a suitable place to use them and puzzle solved.

So, to conclude, I value story/characters more than puzzles. It's only my opinion but since the original thread is a research project then I hope it counts for something.   

[Wonkyth]

Having not played Braid, I cant really comment on it, but I would say that the exploring and discovering is the driving force behind my gameplaying. That being the case, I find it hard to think that a game where you can skip half the action could be an adventure game, as to me, an adventure game is a story unlocked by interacting with characters/the environment around you.

[Ghost]

Well, taking the interactivity out of any game would ruin the game aspect, that's true. I wasn't too specific in what I wrote, and I tend to think pretty much black-and-white somethimes, but do you really think that the core story of any adventure game you care to name would be automatically bad just because it would no longer be a good game? Would Discworld Noir made a bad story? Would Beneath A Steel Sky read boring? I doubt it. The story may be the reward but it's also ideally the origin. Adventure games started as interactive fiction, and I think they still have a lot in common. When people want to tell a story as a game, they made a classic adventure game.

I am aware that that's only my opinion, and a pretty rose-glasses one, though 

[Wonkyth]

I definitely agree, Adventure Games are the best way to tell a story through a computer game, and that's probably the reason why I've never gotten around to making an AGS game.
When it comes to storeys, I'm a great receiver, crap creator.

[Oliwerko]

I was going to write pretty much the same as Radiant already did.

I think that people nowadays want to jump into the action of the game super-fast, have ultra-mega gfx effects and so on. Gaming nowadays seems to me a bit....fast-paced? Look at hardcore simulators, they are much more rare than they used to be not a long time ago. People don't have time to study manuals, they want good-looking simplicity. Total simplicity, no guessing what to do. Gilbert's quote nicely says this, they want just get good at doing whatever they are told to.

In adventrues, it's about the story. Gamers nowadays don't really want good stories, they want anything but the story, be it graphic effects, movie-like cutscenes that make more than half of the game, anything.

Playing an adventure game is like reading a book, it's a little bit more interactive book than a printed one. Now how many people nowadays read books?

[virtualpsycho]

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Fantasic, loads of great info and viewpoints. Absolutely delighted with input so far.

(All viewpoints and info will referenced to their respective owners so no ideas will be stolen but just referenced to, so to speak)

Thank you.

Any one else want to contribute?

Note: DEADLINE for all submissions to be taken into consideration for research paper that will be added here for your viewing is the 4th of August. Thank you.

[Layabout]

I was going to write pretty much the same as Radiant already did.

I think that people nowadays want to jump into the action of the game super-fast, have ultra-mega gfx effects and so on. Gaming nowadays seems to me a bit....fast-paced? Look at hardcore simulators, they are much more rare than they used to be not a long time ago. People don't have time to study manuals, they want good-looking simplicity. Total simplicity, no guessing what to do. Gilbert's quote nicely says this, they want just get good at doing whatever they are told to.

In adventrues, it's about the story. Gamers nowadays don't really want good stories, they want anything but the story, be it graphic effects, movie-like cutscenes that make more than half of the game, anything.

Playing an adventure game is like reading a book, it's a little bit more interactive book than a printed one. Now how many people nowadays read books?

That is such a rash generalisation. I totally disagree with it. While there are some gamers who couldn't care less about story, there are many who cherish the story. Games like Fallout 3, Bioshock et al are highly praised by both critics and gamers for providing a great story experience. Different types of games have different storytelling techniques.

Everything we humans do is about stories. When I ask you how your week was, I am asking you to tell me a story. When someone plays the sims, they want a visual story where they can use the imaginarium part of their brain to fill in the blanks. Every game we play tells a story, either through the game story, or through the events that occur and the imagination or playing technique of the player. We want to be told a story every time we talk to another person, online and offline. We want to be told a story every time we play a game, whether it be the designers story, or the story we experinece through playing the game.

While the audience for adventure games may not be as big or the same audience as say an FPS, there is still people who buy adventure games (SoMI is number 1 on steam, ToMI was number 1 last week). Why yes, Monkey Island is a very well known name, but they are also done very right. One of the highest anticipated games on PS3, Heavy Rain is an adventure game. Yes it does involve action, but the core elements are exploration, clue-gathering and puzzle solving. There are also a shitload of adventure games on the DS.

Rant time.

The reason games are often (more often than not) left with a poor quality story is due to the attitude of the games industry (of which some of your comments don't help) that gamers don't care that much about the story, they are more interested in shooting things and fast paced action. Most stories in games are tacked on 6 months before the release of a game. Why sure, a core idea about what the game is about and the characters and enemies is drafted in the initial design, but scriptwriters are not involved in this process. This basically means the writer has to write the game's story around the elements designed and created for the game. Writing a story around pre-defined action and characters is a very difficult task. Thus most game stories are and feel tacked on. If the industry were to involve writers from the initial pre-production phase of the games development, stories would be infinitly better and more integrated into the whole package. Most adventure games rely on the story, which is written in the pre-production phase, the game is designed around the story, thus you have a better integrated story. It may sound nuts to do it this way, since stories are there to give direction, but it's how it is. You wouldn't film a movie without a script would you. (shut up m0ds.) :p

[Ghost]

@Layabout: I can always be swayed by convinving rants/arguments   . You have a point, and I think I can agree to a lot of it. And you are right, I do tent to generalise.

But generalised or not, I still think my opinion is valid too, in a way.
When you really want to entertain your audience with a story- please notice: this is the only thing you want!- you're going to write a book.
When you want to make a game and see the story as very important, you will not make, to name an example, Peggle. Peggle is an entertaining game indeed. It has eye candy, thrill, everything. But it isn't made by someone who wanted to tell a story.

What I try to get across is a reason to make a game, I think. A story-teller will always favour making adventure games. An entertainer will favour other, more easily rewarding games. And obviously both of them can create a very immersive, rich and interesting plot, but with a different motivation to do so.

[virtualpsycho]

Great contributions keep 'em comin'

8)

[SpacePaw]

Adventure games aren't coming back only in Germany Ghost I can see the same thing happening in Poland. Also look at the Monkey Island remake released not so long ago. And the new Monkey Island by Telltale.
My opinion is that people slowly get bored with "sandbox" type games. Furthermore graphics are becoming less important. Can you remember the days of Tomb Rider when everyone was excited MOSTLY about graphics? With each year we waited for visuals to get better and better. Now everyone is used to "good looking" games and it doesn't impress as much as it used to. People tend to give more attention to gameplay again. And that's a good thing

When it comes to making adventure games, they indeed need lots of people working on them, lot's of animations and voice acting and it all means a big amount of money. Nowadays when piracy over torrents takes away over 80% of game development companies income expensive projects are very risky. Only big companies can allow themselves to invest in an expensive project. However even those companies don't want to invest in something which isnt popular nowadays. They tend to pick the newest trends in gaming like parkour and jumping from building to building because they know they will make profit out of it. And who would buy adventure games? They're not "hot" right now. But I think they will return soon because players look more and more into gameplay and story...

[Captain Lexington]

I don't think the reason is as cynical as it has been made it out to be so far. I think it's that it's difficult to make a good adventure game. It isn't difficult to make a good first-person shooter. Even for someone not affected by nostalgia, DOOM is still an acceptable first-person shooter with atmosphere, varied level design, et cetera. It requires a lot of time and energy to overcome the not-fun elements inherent in the adventure game paradigm--getting stuck on a poorly-conceived puzzle, walking around looking for things that you cannot find, et cetera--to make a good dame. Adventure's hook is supposed to be how big a part the story plays, but it's gotten to the point where things like First-Person Shooters (Half-Life 2) and sandboxy type games have just become better at it. Horror and Humor is what we still have adventure around for, and we may soon find some genre more suited to them in time.

That said, when the time is invested to make a good adventure game, it's generally a pretty damn good game, like Star Trek: Judgment Rites.

[m0ds]

BJ the movie had a script, kinda! Laya-douche!  

[Oliwerko]

I see your point, Layabout, and partly agree with that. Maybe I got carried away by taking only people around here into consideration, that might be the reason why I generalised it like that. Still, most people I know fall to that category. Maybe it's only local, I don't know.

The interesting thing is - why the game industry thinks that gamers don't care about stories, while they actually do?